[00:00:00] I said, you have a choice here. You can see this deficit, you can see where things are headed, and you can try and tighten up and bring the wagon train tighter and simply slow down the ultimate demise. All you're doing is slowing it down and stretching out the suffering. Or you can go down swinging. You can take the money you've got and you can invest it in the future. So which do you want to do?
[00:00:27] Welcome to episode 454. What would it look like for your church to go all in to reach people with the gospel? What would it look like to put all your chips in the middle and say, we're going to spend whatever capital we have to really take a swing? We are replaying our conversation with Reverend Langdon Palmer as he shares his experience in risking it all for the sake of the kingdom. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:53] Welcome to the Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington. We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us, and some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.
[00:01:20] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. It is so good to be here and to be doing this. This episode's a little bit different. In fact, I don't think we've ever done this before where we are going to kind of go back in time, which is crazy. I was thinking about this episode so much this summer. Jesse is off. He's taking some time off. And we've been taking turns kind of doing some solo episodes. And I've been thinking about this one for a long time. Our conversation with
[00:01:47] We had with Reverend Langdon Palmer. And this goes all the way back to episode 12. Episode 12. This is episode 454. And this is the first time we've ever done a replay. And here's why. I was thinking about this conversation lately. And I was worried that it had been lost in the stack since 2017 when we recorded it.
[00:02:08] But it is so, I listened to it again. It is so, so good and so relevant to churches that are trying to figure out how do they turn things around? What does it look like to risk and trust and to do whatever it feels like God's saying it takes in order to move the needle on reaching people?
[00:02:30] And Langdon's a friend and his conversation so open and real and raw. In fact, episode 12 was one of our, to this day, is one of our most listened to episodes in the entire history of The Reclaimed Leader, which is now nine years, almost nine years old. And, you know, again, I didn't want this conversation to get lost some 440 plus episodes later, because I think it's something everyone needs to hear.
[00:02:58] It's what it actually looks like to trust that if we just listen to what God's calling us to do and we have the courage to do it, it's rarely ever the wrong thing, you know? And this is what it looks like when real churches are really trying to turn things around. So, I'm excited to share this conversation, especially if you're one of our newer listeners.
[00:03:22] First of all, thank you for listening. It's been great getting to meet and talk with a bunch of folks who've been tuning into the podcast. Again, the whole point of this is to help you and to inspire you and give you that courage to take the risks that you need to take, because we all need to take them.
[00:03:39] You know, we're in a season of ministry where I think the myth is, is once you experience a certain degree of health or success, it's not a word I really love when it comes to church. I think it's probably the wrong word, but you know what I mean? You see things going the way that you're hoping. You're seeing visions kind of coming together. I think the myth is, is that then things, you sort of keep your foot off the gas or you can kind of set it and forget it.
[00:04:09] Some of you old enough to know that reference. But the reality is, vision never sleeps. It is constant. And while on the one hand it may feel a little bit exhausting, on the other, it is incredibly inspiring that as you're seeing the vision in front of you, you're constantly looking, how do I make sure that we are still doing what God is calling us to do in any given moment? And there's so much life and energy around that.
[00:04:38] And when you have had some wins in the win column, everything kind of feels like it's a little bit easier, even the hard thing. So my goal is that all of us will continue to strive for that. But for what purpose? For the sake of reaching people with the gospel. That's really, I don't know, that's all I care about. I am a big evangelism guy, as you know by now. And for me, it's all about how do we reach people? I do care about once they're here, how do we continue to help them grow in their faith?
[00:05:06] But my beating heart is, how do I help somebody who does not know Jesus or actually who has had just enough religion in their background that they feel like they know Jesus, even though they really don't? How do we reach them? And how do we help them to see what a life of faith is all about? I mean, those are the things that really get me energized. So anyway, thank you for listening. If you can share this podcast, The Reclaimed Leader Podcast, with your colleagues.
[00:05:34] If you find this helpful for you, leave us a review. It's always helpful for people to find us when you leave positive reviews. So thank you so much. And yeah, so without that, next week we're going to come back. Both Jesse and I are going to have a fresh episode for you. But here is our first ever replay. The Art of Risking It All with Pastor Langdon Palmer. Well, welcome everyone. We are here with Pastor Langdon Palmer. Actually, it's Reverend Doctor, isn't it? Didn't you? Yes.
[00:06:04] Oh my goodness. So important. We're here with Langdon. Langdon is a wonderful pastor and was a mentor for me when I was a youth director in a church outside of Philadelphia. And really showed me, in a lot of ways, how to lead well as a pastor. And particularly how to lead well when you're not the one in charge. Langdon was an associate pastor.
[00:06:32] And, you know, there are a lot of challenges that come with leadership and starting new things. And especially if you are not the lead pastor or the senior pastor. And I thought that Langdon had such a great heart and a great spirit, a great patience, and was a great friend during that time. Actually, we knew of each other before we worked together. We were both youth directors in the same town for a while and had heard of each other but never really met. Yep, yep, that's right.
[00:06:59] And I used to send my youth group on scavenger hunts that would interrupt his youth group. Yes. So maybe that wasn't getting off to the right foot, but we all thought it was hilarious that they had to go and seek out someone from the neighboring youth groups group and get them to sign something. Interesting. So Langdon, tell us a little bit about where you're serving now, how long you've been there, and just a little bit about your journey up to here, kind of the Cliff Notes version.
[00:07:28] Thanks. It's good to be with you guys. I'm the lead pastor, which means the only pastor, at Leverington Presbyterian Church. So we're right in the city of Philadelphia, in the Roxborough-Maniac area of the city. And I've been here for about three years. And it's interesting, I am launching a brand new worship service in this church as well right now. I'm right in the midst of it. We're just a year into a new service here.
[00:07:56] And very interesting parallels to when you and I had some time together. So it's been a good trip. And obviously, this is something I'm really passionate about. Yeah. Are you already finding that it's, is it Apples and Oranges launching a very similar thing in another church? Or there are more similarities than differences? Do you know what I'm getting at? Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:22] It is, there are a lot of parallels, but one of the neat things has been the chance to think about this, both the first time as an associate pastor and the second time as a lead pastor and how those two things were different. And the other big thing now is, you know, of course, when you are the senior pastor, things like the budget actually matter to you.
[00:08:43] And, you know, I'm coming into a church that's over 130 years old, giant, huge stone Gothic church, absolutely beautiful, incredibly expensive to run. Came in with a really small, dwindling congregation. And so we're really right in the middle right now where we simply don't know if we have enough runway to make it. So all our dials are pointed in the right direction.
[00:09:09] You know, giving is up, attendance is up, membership's up, small group participation is up. But we're running such a deficit that, you know, we are totally having to trust the Lord, which is something I like to talk about more than do, because it's really kind of hairy. So, yeah, so it is a different setting than where you and I were before. But I do see a lot of parallels between the two.
[00:09:39] I think that piece that you just shared is so important for pastors to remember, because I definitely run into this, too, that you feel like everything's dialed in, everything's pointing in the right direction. Everything seems to be going up and to the right. You know, like it's all looking good. However, you know, is it sustainable? Are we able to afford it? Does this mean I somehow missed what God was telling us?
[00:10:06] Because I don't know, maybe I'm just too thin-skinned, but I start second-guessing myself as a leader. I start second-guessing the direction, even though you kind of in your heart know that everything's going well. I mean, I imagine you resonate with that. I never struggle with that, ever. No, this is, you nailed it on the head. And, you know, it's funny because, again, really, you know, it's easy to look back at Southridge and everything ended up so well.
[00:10:36] But here I am back in the very middle of the heat right now. And it's like, oh, yeah, I remember what this used to feel like. And it doesn't really feel that good. You know, and I find myself wondering and doubting every single day. One cool thing lately has been the realization that even if this whole thing falls apart, because we are actually investing in spiritual formation of people, none of this will be wasted.
[00:11:03] You know, like we might have to end up selling the mixed board and the lights, right? But people's lives being changed, that's actually happening. And so that gives me, you know, a little more courage. But, you know, for me personally, it's a pretty hairy place to be. And you do wonder, hey, what is the long-term deal going to be here? Yeah, so it's scary. Yeah.
[00:11:29] Let's go back a little bit to when we were working together and we launched, you had referenced Southridge. Southridge, for everyone who's listening, was the name of the worship service, actually. We named it. We gave it a name. And first of all, tell us a little bit about that name, because I thought it was cool how it came about. And then we'll talk a little bit about inception of Southridge. Sure.
[00:11:53] So, I mean, I think this brings up a pretty big point right away, which is, I don't like the word branding, but the idea that you're naming this new thing and actually giving it a name and all the benefits and the drawbacks of that, you know, in terms of creating a new thing, creating a situation that people who are in the church already don't get. Like, why are you naming this? Why isn't this just the second service? Like, don't you love us?
[00:12:22] You know, what's going on here? But in terms of Southridge, we were trying to come up with a name that fit us. And it was really funny because we're coming up with all these names and trying to be hipster about it, you know. And, you know, all these things, I won't name any churches, but, you know, all the single, you know, innovation or I hope that's not a real church. But, you know. So, but it occurred to us one day, I actually looked down at our address. It's like, oh, we're on Southridge Avenue.
[00:12:52] And, you know, when you're up in the mountains, I love to backpack. I love wilderness travel. And when you want to get up into the full light, that's where you go. And so we just thought that would be a neat name. You know, basically our name was our address. But it also kind of conveyed that interest in the wilderness, adventure, that kind of stuff. That's cool.
[00:13:18] When I remember when you had come up with that name and we had, like you said, we were bouncing a bunch of different names around. And I just remember the feeling on the team when you gave us that name. Everybody looked at each other and just said, yep, that's it. I mean, I mean, really, it felt it felt right, as did a lot of things on that team that that worked hard together. But what can often happen is the team gets a really great, clear vision.
[00:13:46] But but the church sort of isn't party to the whole process that brought that vision together. And so there's this disconnect between what the congregation understands and what the what the launchers understand. Bring us back to that time of of pre-launch. So you are you were actually called as an associate pastor with with this call to that new thing. Right. That's right. And I think that's really important for people to hear that.
[00:14:15] I really was given a very unique situation. You know, I can remember just getting out of getting out of seminary and expecting, man, you know, this is gonna be no problem finding what I want to do. And, man, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. God, why are you in this? And then one night, you know, just coming across this job posting, which was basically describing exactly what I wanted to do.
[00:14:41] I mean, they were basically saying, we want you to come in and start a new service blank page. And so I think, you know, I can't take any credit for that. That's a really unique situation that I got to be into. I will say, though, when we got there, that what we found out was it really wasn't that the church. I don't think the church had this great vision of we want to reach the loss for Christ.
[00:15:06] I think it was more vision of, ah, we got a bunch of young people who really aren't too happy with what we're doing. So maybe we ought to do something for them. And which is actually, you know, that's a cool, compassionate thing to want. But it's very, very different to be thinking about we want to do something for the people who are already here versus we want to create a new space for new people to encounter the gospel. Yeah.
[00:15:31] I'd be curious, too, you know, you guys were part of that team together. What was it like to lead change as a youth director and as an associate pastor? Kind of, I mean, I think that's a unique thing that's here. Did you feel like you had the buy-in, the total buy-in of the senior pastor? What was it like from the rest of the staff standpoint? Because it is a unique situation to have hired an associate to start something new. What was it like to lead kind of from the second chair in the midst of that?
[00:16:01] Yeah. I think that a really big part of this actually was the senior pastor. You know, he and I had pretty different theological understandings. But when it came to his capacity to let me lead, he was unbelievable. I mean, he truly had a humble spirit. He truly wanted to see us succeed. You know, when I summarized, he retired a while back.
[00:16:31] And when I summarized what my experience of him was, it was one sentence. I'm for you. Like that was the message he sent me. And so, you know, in a way, and Jason, I'd love to hear your perspective. I just think you and I had a very unique situation in that way in that we had a senior pastor who really was willing to give us space. Now, there were all kinds of issues, all kinds of struggles, all kinds of stuff we can talk about.
[00:16:59] But I think the senior pastor having your back was absolutely huge. Yeah, I agree a thousand percent. In fact, in a lot of ways, I've tried to model my leadership with the sort of freedom-giving spirit that he had for me.
[00:17:18] I thought that was probably his greatest strength as a leader was he – I always felt like he was in my corner, even when I knew it may have been a challenge to take that position. Yeah. Because, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. I, you know, I was tripping over myself from time to time as, you know, untrained, sort of un-theologically trained youth directors can get themselves into. And he was always for me.
[00:17:48] But I really felt from both pastors this sense of I had freedom to move. And I had the luxury of not having to be in the battles, to be perfectly honest. And so I didn't understand just how difficult change was because I didn't really have to bear the brunt of it at the time. So this was a new experience for your congregation to have a kind of a lasting contemporary service.
[00:18:13] And I imagine as you went along, was there a point at which people kind of thought this is going to be a side thing for a few people? What happened when you launched it? Did it immediately grow? What were some of the things that you guys were doing in that service? And did that create any dynamics with the rest of the congregation, kind of the two churches concept? Yeah. Speak to some of that stuff. Was there – yeah, as it launched. Yeah, we can come back and maybe drill down more in detail.
[00:18:42] But I just think an absolutely crucial part of this is basically you're either in or you're out. You're either going to do this thing or you're not. And you're either going to make it a prime worship service of the church or you're not. And however you work that out with the church, you've got to get to the point where at least your leadership is on board with this idea.
[00:19:07] So, you know, the first thing we said was – and this also speaks to the church's flexibility too. The first thing we said to the church is, okay, you know that 11 o'clock service where you've got 70 or 80 people who are 70 or 80 years old and they've been there all their life? We want you to give that service to us. And those people are going to have to go to the other service. And they said, okay. But I do think you actually got to make those kind of calls up front.
[00:19:34] I think the idea that you're going to kind of slowly, you know, incrementally work your way into something, that whole span you're incrementally working, nobody likes what you're doing. You know, the traditionalists don't like it. The new folks don't like it. And so I do think it's got to be this – we're going to take a prime worship time. It's going to be consistent. It's going to be every week. And that is a crucial part of it.
[00:20:02] And I do think that I would say a large part of the church really did not get it or get the need for it. I think they got the need of, hey, we want to do something for the young people. But I don't know if they actually got – that the long-term trends for the church were not good if we didn't do this. And I do think – so I'm in a situation now where we've launched a new service totally different again.
[00:20:33] And I think for a lot of churches it has to get to the point almost where you know if we don't do something, we're going to die. That can be a great motivator. Yeah. But as you said kind of early on, in your current setting, it may be that it's too late. It might be pastors out there that are listening going, we can start a contemporary service, but the writing seems to be on the wall. So it's kind of a challenge. But you've got to give it a shot, right? And trust that maybe God can take it. Yeah.
[00:21:02] And so I really think – here's the conversation I had with the church I'm with now. When we were negotiating our call, I said, well, let me give you about four or five reasons why you shouldn't hire me. And one of those reasons was I said, you have a choice here. You can see this deficit. You can see where things are headed. And you can try and tighten up and bring the wagon train tighter and simply slow down the ultimate demise.
[00:21:30] All you're doing is slowing it down and stretching out the suffering. Or you can go down swinging. You can go down fighting. I love it. You can take the money you've got and you can invest it in the future. So which do you want to do? Do you want to just slowly swirl down the drain or do you want to go down fighting? And they said, we want to go down fighting. And so that's what we're doing.
[00:21:55] And I really think that's what we pastors have to think about is do I just want to try and get scared and live in fear and just slow and ultimate descent? Or do I want to take some crazy risks with these people where at the end of the day we can look back and go, well, you know what? It was one hell of a ride or whatever the right word is there. I love that, Langdon.
[00:22:23] But why is it the pastors are so reticent to do that? Is it simply fear or is it something else? And maybe by saying simply fear, I'm not giving enough credit to fear because, I mean, it does stop us from a lot of things. But why are pastors who are in that situation reluctant to just call it out and just be like, look, are we going to just slowly swirl down the drain or are we going to go down swinging? I mean, what is it? Yeah.
[00:22:53] Man, that's a good question. You know, I do think I think we all want to be professional and we all want to be successful. And I actually think those things can hurt us. If I take my eye off the ball and if the ball is helping people grow in Christ, helping people come to know Jesus, creating true worship events, opening up the doors for people who've either never heard the gospel or have been burned by the church and wandered away.
[00:23:21] If I take my eyes off that, then I think it's really hard to get to take risks because then really it's more like a job and I just want to manage my job. Sort of self-preservation of your job or something. Yeah. I think I love hearing that because I think I hope to be a part of a culture and a part of a group of pastors that are willing to risk. But we talked about this when you're the senior leader, too.
[00:23:46] There's this everything comes back to you and there's this tendency to start playing it safe and do the prudent thing, the wise thing or whatever other people's expectations might be. And if we don't keep our eye on the gospel, then we are going to miss it. So good for you, man. I love it. It's awesome to hear it. And you guys are right. You guys are in leadership and you know it is different. I was a youth pastor. I could just run and hide in those fights.
[00:24:13] Well, you know, in some ways as the associate pastor, it was actually in some ways easier for me to launch this service because, you know, when you're the lead pastor or the senior pastor and you're trying to lead this change, I think it's even easier for people to think you're taking sides. Oh, the new thing's your favorite. You love that. Yeah. They're your favorites, you know, whereas they can look at the associate and go, oh, well, that's your job.
[00:24:37] But at least the senior pastor still loves me, you know, and the senior pastor can also, you know, kind of run interference for you. But when you're the senior pastor, yeah, I actually think it's a lot harder. It really is. I definitely underestimated how hard that would be. For sure. I definitely underestimated that. How hard could it be?
[00:25:00] So two churches in with launching new services and, you know, it's harder than I thought. But I would say I was always kind of the other way around. What are we going to do? We're just going to slowly die or actually probably quickly die. And what seriously, what do we have to lose? What do we have to lose? And even this church I'm at now, I mean, when I got here, it wasn't a small church.
[00:25:29] By northeast, you know, New Jersey, you know, part of the country right outside New York City standards, it's considered a big church, even though it's not. It wasn't dying imminently, but all you had to do was look at the trajectory. It's just a matter of time. We could just play church until it's done, or we could do something and make an effort and risk. Because what kind of regrets do you want to have? You want to look back and say, well, what would have happened if we actually gave it a try? We ended up dying anyway.
[00:25:58] I mean, what if we would have done something about it? And I think, I mean, there's all sorts of reasons that we as pastors get stuck and are afraid to move forward. But I don't know. When I dig into scripture and I look at what does it look like to lead well, I don't see a lot of leaders playing it safe. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny.
[00:26:25] One thing I did do in this setting coming in and getting ready to launch a new service is I just made a graph and I showed how our savings had dropped over time and how we were headed to insolvency. And then I said, and here's what's going to happen if you spend $50,000 more this year. Right. So then now the graph is going really, really steep.
[00:26:50] And I'm like, hopefully what's going to happen is we're going to go much, we're going to go down quicker, but eventually we're going to pull up. It's like a plane going down in a crash and you're pulling up on the handle and hopefully it's going to pull up in time and pull out. I said, either that or we're just going to die quicker. Now, the reason that graph was helpful is I also put a little note at the bottom and I just said, it's really scary right here.
[00:27:16] And the reason that was good is like right now and next year, that's that point. Like it's getting scarier and scarier. So I keep getting to pull back the graph to them and going, remember, remember we said it's going to get even hairier. It's going to get even hairier. So I think sometimes when you're at the very beginning of something, you can think about what are things that I could do now that are going to be helpful a year from now, two years from now to keep us on track and help people go, oh yeah, that's right. That's right. That's why we're doing this. Yeah.
[00:27:45] Because it's so hard to keep the long view when you're so worried about what's right in front of you. And especially to keep your congregation looking at the long view rather than the short view. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And stick with it. I think those things help. But we talked a couple of episodes ago about how we're most tempted to give up right before our critical breakthrough. And I think, you know, and I think probably a lot of pastors and churches are, you know, you look at, man, we're invested and it doesn't, is this going to work? Is this going to work?
[00:28:15] And, you know, we'll find out, but stick with it to the very end, write it to the end. Don't give up halfway. You know, that is so helpful because what happens is if you don't do that, you'll never know. And you'll always be full of questions. You'll always be wondering what if. And the beautiful thing about going out that way is, hey, we're going to know one way or another. Yeah. You know, and at least you'll know. And I don't want to go to my grave, you know, asking what if, what if, you know.
[00:28:44] I think it'd be better to go, hey, man, we gave it our best shot. That's right. And I think having pastors, you know, like you, Langdon, that are willing to have the courage to do it and to go for it and to stick it out. We've talked some about how, you know, there's this temptation to walk away or hand off the problem to somebody else or to kind of give up. And but it takes time. It takes consistency. It takes, you know, that kind of messaging over time and having something like that graph that to keep people motivated and to stick with it and all that kind of thing.
[00:29:12] I think also, you know, like I love Kerry Newhoff. You know, I listen every week and you hear, oh, yeah, we started the church and it went to five thousand in three weeks. And I think especially for mainline churches and established churches, maybe that does happen. It doesn't happen under my watch, you know. And, you know, Jason, when I when I look at Southridge, I mean, it literally took five to six years. And it was funny.
[00:29:42] We had I don't know if you remember this, but we you guys know how important it is to take the environment and make it work for the people. And one of the real struggles a lot of people have is you have a, you know, an auditorium or sanctuary that sits 500 people and you've got 100 people there and you feel like complete losers. And yet if you took those 100 people and stuffed them into one of your classrooms, you'd be like, oh, it's a revival. This is amazing.
[00:30:07] So we we draped off pews and we told everybody it was going to be like a bar chart. We were going to watch, you know, that that part of the sanctuary slowly get pulled back and pulled back and pulled back. Well, you know what? The first year, the first second year, even the third year, that thing was hardly moving. And it was kind of like, holy cow. And then just one day it was gone, you know, and the whole sanctuary was full. Yeah. And it happened when you weren't even looking for it. Yeah, that's right.
[00:30:35] Well, we've said Susan Scott's quote, but she said success and failure happen gradually. Then suddenly. Yeah. And how investing in the right things or the wrong things over time. You wake up one day and you look up and you go, how did how did this happen in good and bad ways? And the things you're doing now are going to get you there. But I think stick with it. I think that's is that the message I hear is saying with the pastors out there. One thing I noticed, Jason, on your notes is we're getting ready for this. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Langdon.
[00:31:01] But Jason said you were able to really help carve out some space for spiritual formation, for kind of a spiritual readiness for a launch of a new service. And that's not where my mind or heart goes. Naturally, I'm more, OK, organizationally, what do we need to do to get people ready? So if you would, I would love to hear your thoughts on that. How did you invite people to get ready spiritually for that new service, the Southeridge thing and what you're doing now? I would love to hear your thoughts. Yeah.
[00:31:30] So let me just give a little background of where I was coming from. I was in a place where, like many people, I was a spiritual mutt and I grew up in Episcopalian church. And then I had a moment where I came to Jesus and I walked completely away from the liturgical church and went charismatic Pentecostal and kind of viewed all kinds of liturgy as stumbling
[00:31:58] blocks to the simplicity of the gospel. So I'm a real spiritual mutt. I've been all over the place. And I was pretty strongly influenced by Robert Weber with Ancient Future Church and Alexander Schumann for the Life of the World. And this was right in the whole, you remember this, Jason? This was right in the middle of the whole emerging church movement. Yeah. And back then it was actually, it was like the Wild West.
[00:32:26] Like anybody from Doug Padgett or Brian McLaren to Mark Driscoll was considered emerging. Like it was like, it wasn't one thing. It wasn't the emergent village or anything. It was like this complete experimental time. And we went to that conference together. I forgot about that. We went to that conference in San Diego, suffering for Jesus out in San Diego. And that's right. But yeah, that was the time that was.
[00:32:50] And so the span there of, of, of experiment and theological commitment was, was really, really wide. And it's funny. I think, I don't know if you guys have read Jim Belcher's book, Deep Church, A Third Way Beyond Emerging and Traditional. But it was kind of like a couple of years after we were into it, Jason, I was like, oh yeah, that's what we're doing. That's kind of like what we're trying to do.
[00:33:12] So for me, I've always been fascinated by the question of, you know, if you took that ancient future idea and you took kind of evangelical contemporary worship and you mix those two together, you know, what would you get? And so I was very interested in that. And that included, you know, a return to ideas like spiritual disciplines and kind of whole body worship.
[00:33:42] And, you know, I love theology. I'm a nerd. You guys are too, probably. But, you know, to, to use our bodies and not have our faith just be in our head. And so I also felt with this group to start this worship service that the process we used should be the same as the product we were trying to make. And in other words, if, if, if we're, oh, we're going to create this great spiritual environment
[00:34:10] for people, but we're really only thinking about it from marketing and production, you know, we're going to miss the boat. So one of the really great parts of that was our planning meetings always included worship. So Jason was there and he could lead us. We sang songs in these meetings, even though we had millions of things to do. And we prayed and, uh, we all, we talked about our own spiritual development because I think you've got to do that.
[00:34:38] Like you've got to live out what you want to see. You got to live out in your committees and your teams, what you want to see in worship on a Sunday morning. Awesome. I love it. That's, that's really good. You know, it's funny. I'm listening. So there's, is there a preschool in your office? And when, when, when, when I'm sorry, yeah. So, oh, that's good. It's the sound of life. I see it. It's like a great soundtrack to this. It's like life and laughter and it's good.
[00:35:03] And, and, and so just real quick on that, this, this, we launched the school, uh, six months after I came, they've been adding a class every year. It's a community effort. It's multiple churches doing it together and they've got absolutely no money either. I mean, like they're trying to minister to inner city kids who have, you know, hardly anything. Um, but you're right here, here's a big risk too. And yet our people come in and they hear little kids running around and, you know, they hadn't seen a little kids running around here for a long time.
[00:35:32] So, um, yeah, it's an awesome blessing. Um, and I think too, um, it was really formative for me for the way that you led our team and talking about spiritual disciplines and spiritual disciplines was a major theme in your preaching at the beginning of the Southridge service as well. And I don't, I think that had a significant role in, in the depth of that service, not just its, its reach.
[00:36:02] It was, you know, as, as we talk about, as Andy Stanley talks about, it was deep and wide, but that service really felt like a deep expression of worship from the beginning, which, which I have to say is not what I always feel when I go to an alternative or more modern style worship for one reason or another, not to bash anything. We, we, we do, you know, modern worship here as well, but, but there was something about that,
[00:36:26] that you delivered from upfront and the way that the service was structured, which, which I still think is really unique and interesting is that there was, there are prayer stations set up, uh, around the, the sanctuary that were meant to be done individually during an individual kind of reflection time. And there was a chunk of, was it 20 minutes, 15 minutes, something like that? Yeah, 15 minutes.
[00:36:53] And, and, and so they would have spiritual exercises to do in the middle of the service and people would kind of line up and go through the experience. And, and it was all kind of related to this idea of spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines. And I thought that was incredible. Tell us a little bit more about kind of what was behind that and, and how you see the importance of that or especially saw it at the launch of that service. Yeah. So I think there's two things. I think there's both, what is the worship experience?
[00:37:22] How am I experiencing this? But also then what is the content? And so in terms of the experience, you know, Leonard Sweet does have that very helpful an acronym Epic, you know, what do you want our church service to be? We want it to be Epic. We want it to be experiential, participatory, image driven and community building. And so we really did design the service to be those things. It was very experiential and participatory.
[00:37:48] So in that part that you're talking about in the middle of the service, people got up and there was not just one thing they could do. There was like five or six things. The Lord's table, the sacrament, art station, prayer down on your knees station, what we called reflection stations, which would take each sermon and then have you do an exercise tied directly to that sermon. So all that stuff takes a lot of work, but it was, it's a wonderful way for people that kind of did take ownership of their worship.
[00:38:17] Like we literally would say to them, this is the part of the service where you get to do what you think God's calling you to do. And it allowed them for those minutes to be like, Hey, I think I should do this part. I should do this thing this week. So I think the first part was we really did try to do that kind of Epic. It's kind of corny, but it's a helpful way to think about it. But the second thing was the content.
[00:38:42] And I think the key there was that from the beginning, it wasn't about trying to be hip. It was about spiritual transformation. And, and Jason, you might've even been the one who said it. We were in one of those meetings and one of us said, I just want to have a worship service. That's one that I would actually like to be in. And, um, you know, if we get a little time later, we could talk about that because now that I'm getting older in my age, that may not, may no longer be true for me.
[00:39:12] I may need to be willing to do worship service that I don't actually like that much myself for the sake of a younger generation. But I think for folks, if you're listening and you're in your twenties or thirties, could you give yourself the freedom to say, if I could have the worship service that I would absolutely love to be part of? You know, maybe that's something. And we just, we said, and we're just going to trust God that there are other people who would really dig this too. You know, and, and I think when you do that, you know, your passion and your commitment
[00:39:42] goes way, way up because you're not producing a show for somebody. You're doing the actual worship that you want to do. And I think that's contagious. Langdon, what are some things that you currently do or have done just to maintain your own spiritual and emotional health when leading change? That's one of the things I have to say. Leading change creates so much stress in a way.
[00:40:11] I mean, the stress isn't all bad stress. It also creates kind of a high productivity, a drive, a motivation, but it can completely like derail you. It certainly can me. I have to always be on my guard for what stress is doing to me physically, emotionally, spiritually. How do you deal with that? How have you dealt with that? Yeah. Yeah. Jason, I'm in the exact same boat.
[00:40:40] And, you know, when you start hearing people saying like, you've made us into two churches, it's not my old church. That is really, I think for all of us, that's just like a stab to the gut. You know, I think what we're tempted to say is, okay, let me get this right. The church is dying. I'm busting my butt and you're complaining. Okay. Is that what I'm hearing you say? No, I just like that is what Jason says. Isn't that what you say, Jason? Yeah, that's basically. Yeah.
[00:41:08] And further, further, you know, if you are the associate pastor, you're not being able to shape that elder board. So you're not being able to shape the culture of the whole church. And therefore, you can feel real isolation. You can feel a loneliness. You know, I think we who are lead pastors can say, hey, it may be a long haul, but over time, you know, I can help shape this leadership to have the culture our church needs. But if you're the associate, you're kind of just dealing in the system and that can make
[00:41:36] you kind of feeling lonely and alienated. So, yeah, there's a couple of things that I've tried to do. And obviously, I don't do these perfectly. But certainly, I feel absolutely no guilt about taking time off. Also, turning into the fact that I'm an introvert and not feeling guilty about that and knowing that I just have to spend time alone. And, you know, I've asked God, God, why did you wire me this way?
[00:42:04] Why didn't you make me one of these high capacity guys who can just go 24-7, hey, how's it going, buddy? You know, like they're just doing the party thing 24-7. But he didn't wire me that way. And I've got to be true to the shape that he gave me. And I've got to be honest with that and humble enough to go, hey, buddy, this is how you're shaped. You know, don't ignore that. So I do need a lot of downtime. And I've really tried to protect that. I've also tried to hang out with Christians who are not part of the church.
[00:42:31] I mean, I do think, you know, you don't want to be gossipy, but sometimes I think it's just healthy to be able to talk to people about people they don't know and go, you'll never believe that just happened. Yeah. And, you know, that idea that you're running a marathon. And so if you're going to run a marathon, you got to act like you're running a marathon. Like, wait, wait, if I do this now, I'm going to be dead six months from now. You know, that's not a good idea.
[00:42:58] You know, Jason, I think the two things that have been really helpful for me, the one is, you know, some people have said that ministry is like being nibbled to death by ducks, you know, or, you know, it's like a thousand pinpricks, you know, and a lot of times it's the pinpricks that wear you down. It's not the big stuff. It's those, the nagging, the whining, the complaining, the little snide comment that sinks your boat.
[00:43:26] And unfortunately that is maybe you would like to say, I would like to say that's a sign of what a corrupt fallen nature that person has, but it's also a sign of my pride. Yeah. You know, the very fact that that stuff pricks me, um, it's a sign of my pride and there is no safe port from pride. Wow. And so I've got to be constantly aware of that. And so one of the spiritual disciplines we did at Southridge was something called the humility prayer.
[00:43:54] And, um, that is actually a prayer that I try and work through all the time. And, uh, you know, maybe in the show notes or something, we could put a link up to that. Absolutely. But it's a wonderful exercise for leaders, uh, to, to kind of try and own the part that really is us, you know, and, and how we are, uh, reacting to these people. And the other thing I think is really important is to try and imagine how this other person
[00:44:23] is experiencing this change. You know, for many of them, it is like death in the family. It is grief. It is loss. Um, we all love the idea of change as long as you're not changing the thing I like. Oh yeah. Change the church as long as you don't change the part I like. And so, um, you know, we have to realize for, for some of the folks that, you know, are opposing us. I mean, this is real loss. This is real grief. And, um, what would you do?
[00:44:51] You know, if you were in that, that situation, I want to tell you one more thing, which is, uh, you know, about six months ago, I was looking at everything and going, Oh Lord, you know, there's just, we don't have enough money. We don't have enough materials. We don't have enough leaders. We don't have nothing. And I'm having one of those conversations with God in the shower. You know, like that's where it seems to always be happening. And I literally said, God, all I have at this, all I have got is your word.
[00:45:21] And I felt like he said, that's right. You have my word. You have my word on it. And so I think we need to constantly be taking our eyes off the waves and turning back to Jesus, turning back to his word and going, I'm, I'm putting all my chips on this. I'm putting all my chips on the trustworthiness of the scripture and the goodness of my savior. Uh, because if I look at these waves, man, I'm just not going to make it.
[00:45:49] I think that's so good because I think for a lot of pastors, there's a part of us that thinks, well, everybody expects that we have that attitude all the time, you know? So, so I can't be vulnerable enough to admit that, that I'm struggling with that right now. Do you, do you have Langdon, do you have some guys, um, some folks in your life that, that you can sort of be that with?
[00:46:14] You know, you had mentioned about kind of talking with other, other leaders, uh, who don't know the people in your church. Do you have kind of a regular way that you're doing that? You know, it's funny you say that. Cause I was just driving in today thinking of a particular guy that I really got to reach out to. If I'm honest with you guys, I think I do fall into that isolation trap, uh, more often than I should.
[00:46:41] Um, you know, I've got the whole American rugged individualist, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, be a man, suck it up. I mean, that is just the way I've been brought up. And there's a lot that's really good about that actually. But, um, you know, that, that community, obviously for me, uh, well, not obviously, but I've got an absolutely amazing, wonderful wife who truly is my best friend.
[00:47:06] And I do have, you know, a couple guys, uh, that I can share with, but I, I think actually that if I'm passive in that area, if I don't work at keeping that kind of community in my life, it is all drifting away. And you're right. That is exactly what we need. We need to be able to be with people where we can actually admit like this stinks. Um, I'm, I'm really struggling. And, um, no, I'm not Christ-like and perky every day. You know, I'm really struggling here.
[00:47:37] And, um, I, I think that for someone like me, I've got to basically almost make this a discipline. And so I was just thinking today with this one guy that, um, I'm, I'm going to call him tonight actually, and say, look, we got, I could just get this on the calendar. Like we got to, even if it's just once a month, um, let's do this because we, if we are really struggling with really, really deep things, um, that isolates us even more.
[00:48:07] And so we've got to have at least a couple people in our lives where we can be completely or as transparent as we know how to be. Uh, so yeah, I think that's, that is key. Yeah. You know, in a lot of ways, that was the impetus for this podcast in the first place was Jesse and I doing, doing a Skype call once a month to see, Hey, how you doing? And we get in these conversations and it's like, let's, let's hit record.
[00:48:29] I, maybe some other pastors could be helped or want to be part of this conversation, you know, not as two experts, but as two practitioners, just kind of going, slogging it out together. But the really cool benefit has been, and I'll speak for myself, not for Jesse. I'm sure he's, he's thrilled, but is, is connecting every week with Jesse.
[00:48:48] And, uh, as we do the re, you know, the podcast recording, we do interviews and it's like, it's a constant connection with somebody who, who gets what you're going through and, uh, you're talking stuff out. And there's lots of times before we hit record, we're just like, Oh, I got this thing going on right now. And somebody said this horrible thing. And, you know, we just kind of do a little processing together and that has been so healthy. So healthy. Yeah, definitely.
[00:49:12] And I wonder how many people, including the three of us, how many people listening, if we just asked, have you ever felt like an imposter? You know, would raise their hand. Like, yeah. I mean, so many times, like, I feel like an imposter and like, you know, I don't know where all that's coming from, you know, but, but I think we have to realize that's actually a kind of a, a standard part of leadership is those kinds of thoughts.
[00:49:39] And, um, and of course, as you guys know, the danger there is that we can get to that point where the public self and the private self are two totally different things. I think you got to be wise about those things. But when those become really two different roles, I think you're just dead. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
[00:49:56] I do think also maybe an encouraging thing in this particular cultural moment is that most folks, you know, at least I would say in their thirties, forties and younger, they actually don't want a pastor who gets up there and acts like he has his act together. And they sniff that fakeness a mile away. And so, um, you know, actually in my sermon prep, I have a little, I'm a nerd. So I wrote my own software to, you know, to write my sermons and, and one of the little, it's totally ridiculous.
[00:50:25] But, but, but one of the, the little tick marks is, you know, vulnerable. Were you vulnerable in some way in this sermon, uh, to let people know that you're real and you struggle and you have doubts. So I think in some ways, actually, um, we can be thankful that we're in this cultural moment where a lot of people don't expect us to be this absolutely perfect shining, you know, whatever that is. Really good stuff.
[00:50:51] And I found myself nodding along as you talked here the last handful of minutes. I mean, I think there's a lot of us that resonate with that, the isolation of leadership, that sort of this imposter complex we have, the need to stay connected to who Jesus is and who we are because of who he is. And, and those are things that we all need to be reminded of in here. And to hear that from each other, to listen to your story, Langdon, is just powerful. So I'm glad you're doing what you're doing and I hope it works.
[00:51:18] And if not, it's going to be a glorious crash at the bottom of the mountain or whatever, but we're all going for it. And I'm glad you're going for it. And, you know, I can't wait to see what happens and to hear more of the story as, as you continue to lead change in it and not place. It's kind of, it's, it's amazing. Yeah. It would be kind of fun to just check back with you guys. It would. Well, I was just thinking the same thing. We can just open with, did the plane crash? That's right. Did you pull up in time? That's right. What would you tell Langdon?
[00:51:47] And what would you tell a pastor who is, you know, let's say they're, they're, they're, you know, in a church, maybe they're a solo pastor and associate pastor or, or, and they are, they know that they got to do something different. They, they have to try maybe a different expression of a worship service, a different style, a different way of being the church together.
[00:52:12] What is some, what is some advice that you would give them as they're going into whatever it is, a worship service, a new ministry initiative? What would you, what would you have to say to them? Getting key members on board and, and having key leaders, uh, believing in the vision is absolutely crucial. And so, you know, that idea of taking your entire staff on a road trip somewhere, um, you know, like I know, uh, Amplified Church, who's done an amazing turnaround.
[00:52:40] That pastor took his entire elder board down to Andy Stanley's church, just so they could imagine, like, because they were having a hard time even imagining how different things really could be. And so I think, you know, vision casting, we, we use our words and people glaze over. And I think we've got to find ways to be able to show people and let them taste it and feel it.
[00:53:03] Um, and I also think that, um, you know, working, uh, through maybe a book like Autopsy of a Deceased Church. Like when I first came to my church, I made my entire elder board read that book. And then we discussed it and getting people to the point where they realize like, holy cow, we can't blame all of this on the culture. You know, some of this is our own stuff and we've got to be willing to look at that.
[00:53:28] Um, I'd also say, especially with the worship services, what we said before, either do a divide and conquer like we did at Southridge where we had a traditional service and we had this alternative service. Either do that or do a complete reboot where you take the whole church and turn the whole thing upside down. But don't do anything in between. Like don't do part way. Don't do kind of. You've really got to make it have its own, uh, its own vibe, its own life.
[00:53:57] But at the same time, I would say, don't break anything that doesn't need to get broken. You know, we can, uh, just get frustrated with how things are and just start breaking things that really don't need to be broken. And all we do is really tick people off and, um, and hurt them. Uh, and so I think whatever change we're bringing, we got to make sure we're not like rubbing it in, in people's faces.
[00:54:20] I do think also that you should, uh, not try and compare yourself to some, you know, mega church and go, oh, we should be that. But rather compare yourself to where could we be right now if we radically redeployed the people and the money and the resources we have right now? Like that's, that's the thing we should be looking at is not like some dream down there we can never reach, but rather with what we have right now. You know, if we totally reallocated this, what, what could we be doing?
[00:54:50] Um, and I also think, you know, don't try to be hip, uh, try to be passionate, uh, try to make it beautiful. And, um, it should be, it should be something that you're madly in love with and passionate about. And you're thinking about it more that way, the beauty of the gospel, uh, more than, you know, we're trying to create some kind of slick, uh, product. And finally, I think what you guys were talking about is that this takes time. Yeah.
[00:55:19] It really takes time and you've got to have patience. Uh, you know, and James, it talks about, you know, the farmer remembering the early and the late rains. I mean, it's talking about him planting the seed and he's still waiting and it's the spring and he's still waiting and it's the summer. And, you know, so it's a long haul and, uh, we've got to be willing to hold on, you know, and see what God's going to do with that. Well, Langdon, that's so good, man. And, uh, I got to tell you, it's been awesome talking to you.
[00:55:48] So good to, what a great excuse to reconnect, right? So, but, uh, but again, I think, um, I think this is so helpful and so good. Good for, for me to hear and hopefully good for all of our listeners to hear. Oh my goodness. That episode is so good. I love it.
[00:56:06] And listening to it again, just remembering a lot of the things that I was going through when, when that interview was happening, the things, you know, leading change in the church and how incredibly encouraging it was to me. And it still encourages me now. Langdon, uh, he, he had a, he did really wonderful things at that church. And then, and then he retired. And from what I understand is enjoying retirement because no one's able to get hold of him.
[00:56:31] No, he's, uh, I do see him pop up on Facebook from time to time, but man, what a, what a gift. Uh, this conversation was to me. And I hope that it was a gift to you as well. Again, reach out to Jesse or I anytime Jason or Jesse at reclaim leader.com. We'd love to talk with you, encourage you. And there's nothing proprietary and what we have done in our churches. If anything is helpful to you, we're happy to share it.
[00:56:56] Uh, we don't have all the answers, uh, but we have some things that have worked and we could definitely tell you what hasn't worked as well. But anyway, the whole point of this is that we're here for one another, that this is a community. And as we say each and every week, because we meant it, ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together. Take care, everyone.