[00:00:00] When we notice a gap or we start to realize there's a gap, there's this part of us that wants to give reasons or make excuses for the gap. Well, it's because the demographics have changed in our community, and that may be true. Or, well, it's because we had some staff turnover, which has happened for us recently. It was like an easy thing to go, that's why it's not working right. So when we notice a gap, there's this part of us that wants to come up with a reason why it's there, why we haven't addressed it or whatever,
[00:00:27] because it's a little uncomfortable, honestly, to look at a gap and go, somehow we missed this. Welcome to episode 468. Have you ever tried ministry program after program and had the same result? What if it's not a programmatic problem, but a systems problem? If you don't recognize the difference, you will struggle to close the gap. How do I identify the real ministry problem? That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker.
[00:00:56] And I'm Jesse Skiffington. We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us. And some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast.
[00:01:22] Jesse, I feel like our recording rhythm has been so weird during this season because both of us have been pulled in so many directions. And I feel like it's my fault, Jesse, because I keep texting you and be like, dude, we got to bail. Can we do this another day? You know, every time you text me and say, hey, I can't do it today, I go, there's another hour and a half in my life that I get. But so, no, I totally get it, man. And I'm sure everybody in the trenches of ministry, it's a busy season already. And I don't know.
[00:01:51] I feel like there's something in the air. You and I sometimes talk about this more offline than we do when we record. But just it's a challenge right now. And there are things that are working, things that are going well. But there's a general sense in which it just feels like the wheelbarrow has a few more bricks in it or the uphills a little steeper, something. And that comes in. And sometimes it's the opposite. But right now it feels like one of those times. So we're in it together. And so anytime you text me, Jason, I go, Jason, how dare you?
[00:02:20] But then I'm secretly like, yes, an hour of my life. So anyway, I get it. Well, it's a lot. There's been so much. And I know pastors out there, you've probably experienced the same thing. But for some reason this fall for me, there's been a lot of personal along with church challenges sort of all interwoven and just taking a lot of emotional energy. And I feel like I'm way more depleted than I usually am. We talked about this in the summer, how I said yes to too many things. Yeah.
[00:02:49] And, you know, trying to figure out how to sort of get back to where I need to be, you know, physically, emotionally, spiritually is sort of job number one for me. And we should hit those. We're like, we're on a different episode than we did before. Yeah, we're totally different episode. But this is where we're at. Yeah, we should probably hit those, dude. But yeah.
[00:03:11] There's kind of this, I mean, for me and I think for you too and any of us that work in the church, we know that there's like a green spot where we're like, oh, this is humming along. I'm doing well. The church is doing well. Things are going and there's a rhythm. And those are kind of rare moments. I find myself working in the yellow a lot where I'm like, I'm kind of pushing the RPMs here. And if there's anything else, if another funeral, another whatever, I'm going to be in the red here pretty soon. So that's where I think you and I are just going. It feels like that right now.
[00:03:41] It feels like we're kind of tilted over that way. So hopefully. So we're perfectly ready for the holidays. Perfectly ready. It's just the right heart and mindset to go into the most wonderful time of the year with. That's right. Well, Jesse, today and next week, I want to talk about some things that I've really been blessed to have a lot of conversations with churches and ministries about how they're trying to adapt and change and do things to be more effective and more efficient in their ministry, which is awesome. It's a wonderful privilege.
[00:04:11] I've really, really loved. I've always wanted these opportunities to work with ministries like this. So this has been really fun for me. But there's some things that keep popping up over and over again. And the topic today and next week is one of those. And it has to do with how do you identify what the real issue is going on in a ministry? How do you know if it's a broken program or a broken system and why that matters a lot? Yeah.
[00:04:40] And so we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about we're going to eventually lean towards stewardship. And I know a couple of weeks after Jesse is going to bring us some episodes on stewardship and all. And so I really feel like this is a nice month's worth of content that's going to help for a lot of churches right now is you're thinking about what are we doing in 2027? Like, that's right. What's our budget going to look like? What's our stewardship situation? How are we going to close the gap? All of that. So we're going to tackle that. I love it.
[00:05:10] Let's do it. And I'm going to start out with a very practical example. I don't, pastors, I know a lot of you have kids. Jesse, do your kids have chores? Oh, yeah. That they have to do? Okay. Yes. So do mine. Now, whether or not they do said chores is... Takes a few reminders. Is a whole other issue. As parents of teenagers, we are the frontal lobe for our kids a lot of the time, right? We are. Reminding them, calendaring them, prodding them. That's right. Right. Yes.
[00:05:35] So one of my sons, I won't say which, for the purposes of protection, one of my son's job is to clean up the dog mess in the backyard. Yeah. And he knows, the thing is, it's got to be done before I go to cut the grass. That's really, that's the only thing I ask. Yeah. I give him a lot of heads up. Now, Jesse, how many times do you think I've gone out in the backyard with the mower and have not stepped in something that he forgot?
[00:06:04] I mean, just... I would ballpark it that you're probably 90% of the time, it's not where it needs to be. I think that's generous. Yeah. That would just, based on my own sample size at home in my own house, that's... That's generous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe he's, yeah. Is he doing how often... I would say, I discover what he missed more often than not. There you go. Now, the problem isn't that he's not going out there and doing it. He is. He's going out there. He's got the bucket. He's got the shovel. He knows what to do.
[00:06:35] I see. He spends time out there. And it's not that I'm sending him out there at the wrong time of day. Or if I send him out there more, I don't think that's going to fix it. But because I think the issue isn't just that he's not out there. The issue is there's something wrong with his system of identifying where it is and how to clean it up. Yeah. Now, that's a ridiculous example and yet not a ridiculous example. Yeah.
[00:07:04] He needs a grid system is what he needs, man. You got to, you know... I know. He needs a system where he's covering all the ground. That's right. Here's the thing. In your ministry, the reason why things aren't working aren't always a ministry problem. People are out there. They're doing the work. You have the program. It's a great event. It's a whatever. But oftentimes, it is a systems problem. You wonder why every time you try a program in that particular ministry area, it doesn't seem to work.
[00:07:33] That's one of the big red flags to let you know that it's more than just a program problem. It is a system problem. It is, are we addressing this ministry gap? Are we really identifying what the real problem is we're trying to solve? Like, do we know what that is? Or are we just treating a symptom of it and not really changing the system behind it? Yeah. And we've talked over the years about a lot of different examples for ministry.
[00:08:02] I know Christmas events, other events, Jesse, I know that we've talked about where we realized it's been a systems problem. But here's the thing. If leaders figure this out, if leaders figure this part out, how do you identify which is which? What the real problem is? It makes way for big, big changes. Mm-hmm. And I'll say this.
[00:08:23] If not for one systems problem in particular, our budgeting, which we're going to get to next week, if not for one problem that we realized was a systems problem, we changed that system. And it was very, very difficult to do so. It's the most ingrained system in the life of the church. Yeah. And it took a lot of conflict to get through it. But once we did. And you probably put a lot of leadership chips on it. Oh, yeah.
[00:08:48] After that, yeah. And I do believe those are related. Yeah. Yeah. So for people that are going like, okay, you guys talk about systems all the time. Budget system, we're going to talk about that. But basic description of a system. What are we talking about? How is a program different from a system? Yeah. So.
[00:09:18] High point. Yeah. Think about it this way is if the system is or if an initiative ministry initiative is the thing that you're doing, the system is the supporting structure behind it. Yeah. So let's say in youth ministry. You can have a lot of different kind of youth ministry programs.
[00:09:42] But if you go back to what's the system, how is that area staff with volunteers or a team? How are they resourced with funds? How are they supported in the life of the church? That's the system that undergirds it. It's like building a bridge. You need the pilings in the ground so that you can build the bridge across. So I think that's really the difference. Yeah. No, I think that's spot on. And it's like the infrastructure that sustains or allows you to build something on it. Right.
[00:10:10] So we don't always naturally or intuitively think in terms of system, but some people really do. And so if you have some system minded people, this is like find a way to connect with them and say, hey, how do we how do we help me think about systems? Because I don't naturally do that. So good stuff. So let's let's dive in a little more. So the system challenge, the real ministry problem. Let's let's get into it.
[00:10:33] So, for example, one thing that I hear from a lot of churches that don't have young families anymore or don't, you know, it's just it's tough. They're always thinking about how can they make their Sunday school better so it's more attractive. Mm hmm. Well, that's a symptom of a larger problem, which is your young families don't feel comfortable in the church for one reason or another on a Sunday morning.
[00:11:02] Okay.
[00:11:33] I'll give you an example. It's a little bit different, but it's the same philosophy about our Sunday school. When we were making big changes 10 years ago, I heard a couple anecdotal stories about Sunday school that were not good. Mm hmm. One kid crying because they had to go to Sunday school. Mm hmm. Another kid talk about how Sunday school is so boring and, you know, they didn't like it or whatever. Sure. And it wasn't our teachers. It was our system. Our system was based on an old style curriculum.
[00:12:03] It was very lecture based and information based. Yeah. And the kids thought it was a drag. I mean, it's not how kids learn anymore. Kids learn totally different. It's everything's for better or worse. Right. Um, it's rare that a kid will have a lecture. In fact, they'll call it, uh, something different in high school. It's like not even a lecture, but it's like a rare thing. You have a lot of team-based learning. A lot of, you know, kids will sit in cohorts. They don't sit in nice rows with desks like 1950s. Right.
[00:12:33] But we were teaching that way. It was a systems problem. I didn't matter what curriculum we threw in there. We had to address the system. And so, and, but once we did, we finally solved what was going on because we're able to identify the real problem. Um, think about your budget. And again, we're going to get even more into budgeting next week. Think about a budgeting problem. Well, we can't make budget. We don't have enough resources to do the things we feel God's calling us to do.
[00:13:03] Well, if you're getting to this time of year and your budget's not meeting, it could be a giving problem where, um, the people you're counting on to give a, you know, a certain amount, just don't do it for whatever reason. It doesn't meet or your expenses got in control. You had way too much snow plowing that you didn't expect or whatever. And the thing's a little bit out of whack. But most of the time, it's not a giving problem.
[00:13:28] It's an inspiration problem because the people in the congregation, I think is what happens, Jesse. I take for granted because I know all the stories of life transformation happening in the church. If not all of them, I know a lot of them. They come my way. And I take for granted that everybody else knows those stories. It's easy to give when you can see the mission right in front of you actually happening. When you can see life transformation.
[00:13:56] But most of the people in the pews, they don't get that view. They don't get that seat. And it's not until you sort of explain to them what's happening in life of the church, they're like, oh, yeah. They will gladly give to that. They would love to give to that. It's an inspiration problem. And it's a communication problem. We're not communicating enough what God is doing in the church. And so people are not feeling led to give. Now, this is a whole debate.
[00:14:24] You know, should we have to wait for Christians to feel led to give? Well, no. But that's how it is. So you can fight that battle. You're probably not going to win it. And it's probably not going to get you where you want to go. So you can teach discipleship and giving along the way. But think about how do people give? They give because they feel inspired to or moved to give nowadays. It's not like there was something great about the days when people would just fill out a pledge card. And this is how I've calculated. This is what we're going to do. And you build a budget on that.
[00:14:53] I think those days are pretty much gone for most churches. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just different. I'll also say this. The way giving is now in our church and recurring digital giving is actually way better than back we're in the pledge card days. So, I don't know. You sort of take the good with the bad with that. But you have to understand what's the actual gap? Identifying the gap. Is this thing that we're saying is the problem, is that the real problem? Yeah.
[00:15:23] Is it a program or is it a system? Yeah. And you think about it. If you're identifying the problem at the output end, we go, oh, the results aren't good or the outcomes aren't good or whatever is the problem. And you're like, okay, so you got to come back to the start and go, what about all the pieces along the way led us to that outcome? And are there things that we need to address rather than just changing out, trying to fix the outcome or tweak the outcome or whatever? So, I think that's where you're leading us.
[00:15:51] So, we're getting towards a real ministry problem and trying to hone in on not identifying the wrong things as the source of the issue. So, we might be distracted by what it looks like, I don't know, on paper, it looks like a negative outcome. And here we're sort of fixated on that piece. But there's other things behind that that we need to dig into and go, what's the music behind the lyrics? Or what's the tone underneath all of that?
[00:16:20] And what's really going on? So, help us get some eyes for that, Jason, because I think this is a common problem for us. It is. And what I also hear a lot from people is like, I don't know what the gap is. Like, I feel like there's a gap, but I don't know what it is. Sure, sure. And again, and this was something that I wrote in the book last year. And that is, if you can ask these three big questions, can I help you get there? Who are you as a church? Yeah. Who are you really?
[00:16:48] Not who do you think you are in your head or who were you 25 years ago, but who are you really? And that means just what do the numbers tell you? What's going on with the people? Right? Who are you trying to reach? Yeah. And then why aren't you reaching some people? Like, if you're like, hey, yeah, we're trying to reach young families, but aren't really reaching them. Why? If you can ask those three big questions as an organization, you start to identify the gaps. Again, the whole name of the game is you got to identify the gap.
[00:17:18] What's the real problem? Because again, if you could do that, you can make real fast, dramatic change in your church. And I know those aren't words we're used to hearing in church, but you really can. Yeah. And here's the challenge with that, Jason, I think, is when we notice a gap or we start to realize there's a gap. There's this part of us that wants to give reasons or make excuses for the gap. Oh, totally. This is a real challenge that I see. Not just out there.
[00:17:47] I mean, here at Marine View, when we notice a gap, it's like, well, it's because the demographics have changed in our community. And that may be true. Or, well, it's because we had some staff turnover, which has happened for us recently. So it was like an easy thing to go, that's why it's not working right. So when we notice a gap, there's this part of us that wants to come up with a reason why it's there, why we haven't addressed it or whatever, because it's a little uncomfortable, honestly, to look at a gap and go, somehow we missed this and we got to be accountable for that so that we can move in a new direction.
[00:18:16] But I would just encourage you, if you feel like an excuse or like some reasons that you want to plug into that gap as a why it's there or to explain it away, don't have like with everything you are, try not to do that so that you can just be honest with people and people are going to go, oh, we've now we see the problem. We can actually make some progress. So as a leader, sometimes I want to kind of cover the gap because it feels uncomfortable. Yes.
[00:18:45] Because it's like, it's on my watch that this gap is happening. So I'm really glad you said that because this is where a lot of pastors, they feel a certain amount of shame over the ministry gaps as if it's their fault, which is probably almost always not true. Yeah. There's lots of factors, right? Yeah. Yeah. We have some part to play in it, of course, but the shame piece and the hard thing, Jason, I would say this comes back to some of our initial conversations about leading change is sometimes we're made to feel that way by people in the church. Yeah.
[00:19:15] That we're not doing a good enough job or we're not doing whatever. And so anytime we see a spot where maybe there's work that needs to get done or something needs to improve or be better, that part of that insecurity piece comes out for us. So those are all just things to be aware of as you notice a gap. It's not about whose fault it is or who to blame. It's about what are we going to do about it so that we can get to a better place and move toward the mission. So anyway, a little side sermon on that whole bit. No, no, but that's exactly on point.
[00:19:44] And I'll just give me an example where this is happening for us. This is a little behind the scenes about a couple of conversations we've had in our leadership team around worship participation, September and October. For us this year, it's essentially flat from 2025, which is rare. We have been on this growth trajectory since we came out of COVID and it hasn't stopped.
[00:20:09] Now it's two months, but what has happened was almost everyone around the table is coming with excuses. That's right. It's been weather. It's been this. It's an early flu season, Jason. It's an early flu season. But like, no, but last year early in the fall was the Charlie Kirk assassination. There was a bump that lasted a few weeks of people feeling like they needed to attend church.
[00:20:35] And there was all, but anyway, there's lots and lots of excuses go around. Now it's a very small sample size. We have no idea what's going to happen, but to me, it's something to pay attention to. What's, what's going on here? Why, why has this all of a sudden flattened out and not to be afraid of asking those questions? That's it. That was kind of my point behind that is we should have the courage to deal with things as they are. Cause what do we say leaders? Part of our job is to define reality, not pretend it's something else.
[00:21:04] And, uh, sometimes those are uncomfortable things because there is something, it feels like it reflects back on us, but have the courage to do it. You'll be surprised. Healthy people are like, you know what? You're doing a great job. Look at all these things that are working. We do need to improve this. So just, you know, it, it's, it's a little, it makes you feel vulnerable. Yeah. Uh, so if you can identify the gap, you could take steps to close the gap.
[00:21:28] I know this isn't rocket science here, but it's funny how complex we make something when it's often pretty simple. Doesn't mean it's easy, but I mean, simplicity is your friend. Complexity is your enemy. So if you can clearly identify and simply identify what the gap is, you can start taking steps to do something about it. And so closing the gap, that's just simply asking, okay, what should we try to do? Yeah. What do we have the resources to do?
[00:21:57] What would be the right step to do? Yeah. Who are the right people to get in the room to work on that idea? Exactly right. And then that's when you can get to a good brainstorming process to figure out what are we going to try next? Mm-hmm. Maybe the answer is we had, we had a program that just didn't work, but we think a better program will. Okay. Or nope, it's a systems problem. We got to figure that out. We were just, uh, identifying that for a certain, uh, step in our ministry pathway, our next steps
[00:22:25] pathway, which is what we identify as discipleship. Um, we noticed a gap in that what we discovered was we're really, really good at getting people from first time coming to Tower Hill all the way to becoming a new member. We're really good at that part of the pathway. Yeah. We're really bad at new member to engage long-term member. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:52] We, that's a gap for us that we had to identify and admit like, whoa, that's, there's a huge drop-off. In other words, the back door may be as big as the front door in some, in some cases. Sure. Yeah. Um, and why is that? And what do we do about it? Yeah. And it's because they get all this personal attention and easy, like clear next steps. Mm-hmm. And then it sort of stops and they're expected to jump in where everybody else is down the road. Mm-hmm.
[00:23:21] And what we discovered was, no, no, no, we need to have a little more personal contact to help them get, you know, take easy steps towards what's next for them. And it means more personal touch, getting to know them, helping to point them into the right direction, connecting them with the leader of the small group of the thing. Right. So, so we're working on it. That's something that we're actually working on. And it's funny, one of the easiest entry points is serving. Mm-hmm.
[00:23:49] And it just so happens a lot of our low, kind of low commitment serving opportunities in the church are the best places for new members. Yeah. Like our welcome ministry, guest services. Because they're excited. They're so happy to be part of the church. Yeah. Or signing up for our pancake breakfast or our fall fest, you know, with the inflatables. Like these are great, easy one-offs that help them take a step of engagement in the life of the church. Yeah. Also talking about giving more during the membership process as part of what we do.
[00:24:19] Did you know, I just found this out from our stewardship meeting. So our, a lot of our new growth over the last five years, I'd say it's like 80% ex-Catholics. So a lot of Catholics. And here's what never occurred to me that somebody brought up in that meeting. An ex-Catholic who's been with us for a few years. She said, you know what? People would be shocked to know that the Presbyterian Church does not fund this church.
[00:24:48] Mm-hmm. Because in the Catholic Church, that's the way it works. Okay. Yeah. People, she goes, people think the denomination is funding you. Yeah. And so their giving isn't 100% necessary. Sure. That never occurred to me. That's a good piece of information. Yeah. That's important to know. Yeah. Exactly right. So how do we communicate that well? Mm-hmm.
[00:25:18] Well, we start, we start in that whole visitor to new member. We address that more and we help them to sort of understand what's going on. So anyway. Yeah. Identifying the gaps. Yeah. And this is something I think, Jason, as we've known each other for a long time, this is something you are really good at. You kind of intuitively notice the gaps and you go, oh, what is that about? And you ask questions about it. What are some, what is that? Is that just you're wired that way?
[00:25:47] Or like, what are some of the things that you're looking for consistently that are telling you that there may be a gap? It's almost like you just kind of have a sixth sense for that. At least that's how it looks from the outside. Are there some things you're doing to really, is there an evaluation that you're doing? Or is there just some sort of a way of looking at each part of your church where you're going? I think there might be a gap here. Honestly, it may be a little bit of both.
[00:26:13] I think the thing we do really well is every week we sit down and we talk about what's going on in the life of the church, what we're seeing. Yeah. And so it's a collective sixth sense in a way. Yeah. Where it's like we're all talking about it. A collaborative sixth sense.
[00:26:40] And they're like, oh, I wonder, maybe there's a gap there that we need to work on. Why aren't we getting as many prayer requests as we were before? We used to get a whole stack of them and now we don't have any. And I was like, oh, when we moved from pews to chairs, we changed the way that the prayer card is situated. And now it's behind the connection card and people don't see it. It could be as simple as that. But where's the gap? Well, you got to notice and ask a question about it and begin to wonder about it. So that's something you naturally do.
[00:27:09] But you also create a space with your team to do that and to evaluate as you go along. So whether you have a team or whether it's you in your office just kind of thinking through things yourself, you know, what am I noticing? Where might there be some gaps? And I think that just kind of cultivating that question, is there a spot where we need to do some work here? So I've always appreciated that about you, Jason. You got that sense about it.
[00:27:37] But it also comes from creating an environment where those conversations can happen. It does. And I think if I have a bias is I definitely have a bias toward the newer folks. And I think it's because of just my own history of coming to Christ as a young adult and knowing what it feels like to walk into a church and how scary that is and how badly I want for people to get connected and to feel seen and known and loved.
[00:28:07] And so I'll notice when they don't come for a while or when they kind of stop engaging and I wonder what's gone wrong. And sometimes I'll reach out to them. Sometimes I won't, depending on kind of the relationship there. But I think that's part of it is I just want so much for them to feel at home and to grow in their faith and all the things that we hope for as pastors that I want to figure out. Is it us or them?
[00:28:36] If it's them, then it's their own journey, you know? But did we do something that messed this up? Like, did we do something that accidentally either failed to engage them or turn them away? Yeah, or made it harder in some way unnecessarily, right? Already coming to faith and coming to a new church is already hard. So how do we, you know, in the midst of that challenge, make the steps clear and obvious and easier? So I love that about your heart. And then I imagine there's somebody that's like, oh, I kind of have the opposite.
[00:29:07] My heart's for church people that have been there for decades. And how do we help them keep growing? You know, because they've been plateaued in their faith for 20 years. Like, where's the growth for them? You know? So, yeah. Anyway, it's good stuff. So that's the first part. I know, again, it's not crazy rocket science. Identify the gap and then close the gap. But I do think a lot of it's to do with if you can find out what the real problem is, what's the problem behind the problem? What's really going on?
[00:29:35] The more you could drill down on that, the better shot you have at a better solution. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Hey, man. Yeah. Where are you? Where do you want to be? What's going on in the middle right there? And how do you get to work on that? So I love it, Jason. Good stuff as always. And appreciate getting to talk shop. All right. Well, hey, everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Reach out to us anytime, Jesse or Jason at reclaimleader.com. We're here for you. That's the whole goal of this podcast. We give it away absolutely free. We've got now 468 episodes you can listen to.
[00:30:04] And hopefully like one or two of them are good. At least half of one maybe is good. That's right. And next week, we're going to talk about resetting your systems to solve the ministry problem. So just taking a look under the hood at the systems going on in your church. We're going to cover two staffing and budgeting. So anyway, hope this helps. As we always say, ministry is hard. It is so much better. Let me do it together. Thank you. I'm going to cover three freeing separate Monday