[00:00:00] If we're not willing to address stuff, it's going to grow and it's going to grow in us. It's going to make our jobs harder. We're going to maybe start dreading coming to work or we're going to start going down the other hallway when we see that person coming through the door. And like, it's all that stuff that I think what I take from her conversation or her quote, and then kind of what you're saying, that's the stuff that erodes our well-being at work and makes us less effective as leaders and isn't good for us long running. Welcome to episode 456.
[00:00:29] Last week, we talked about having accountable conversations. Today, we're going to unpack this idea a little bit more since our ability to navigate these conversations is really mission critical. In fact, it's going to determine how far your ministry can go. The Joy and Fear of Accountable Conversations Part 2. That's today in The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us. And some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. It is so good to be back with all of you.
[00:01:24] Welcome to all of our new listeners, all the folks joining us over the last few weeks. We're so glad that you are here. And reach out to us, Jason or Jesse at ReclaimedLeader.com. We want to get to know you a little bit. And talk shop. That's one of our favorite things to do. And speaking of talking shop, Jesse, this is another one. Another episode on kind of dealing with maybe not the most fun things or not the things that we got into being pastors for. Yeah.
[00:01:51] But are very important in leadership in the local church. And that is how we having these accountable conversations. We started last week. Jesse brought to us kind of those five different areas that we talked about. And today's all about going deeper on those things. So I'm excited to hear more about that, Jesse. I think it's because after we got done recording it, I was like going through them in my mind. I'm like, oh, yeah.
[00:02:18] You know, I wonder what what are the areas to kind of go deeper a little bit on those. So looking forward to that. Yeah, so good. And, you know, this is a skill set, you know, Jason. It is some people are more natural at confrontation and almost have like a wired in ability to have those honest conversations with people. You know, you hey, you said you were going to be here to open the building and you didn't. And just what happened? You know, help me understand. You know, some people that's just the way they work. Right.
[00:02:46] But I think for a lot of us as pastors, we that's not us. Right. We're the people we care for people. We don't like confrontation isn't our first go to thing and fun. In fact, you know, a lot of us will go the other direction from it. We run from conflict or confrontation. And so we got to figure this out, though. And it's not just because it's the right thing to do. It's because we want to accomplish our mission. You know, like there's there's something at stake here.
[00:03:11] And so in order to be a healthy organizationally, even healthy personally, we need to be able to have this skill set as part of our leadership. Whether it's we have a big staff and we're having these conversations at a staff accountability level or we're working with key volunteers, as many of us do in our middle to smaller sized churches. It's like a lot of those things we go, well, they're a volunteer and we kind of let those things go. But there's something really at stake for us.
[00:03:39] And I wanted to start with another quote from Susan Scott. Last week, we started with her quote about any one conversation can be the conversation that is the most important one you ever have with that person. It's like one conversation can change things. And I want to follow that up in her book, Fierce Conversations. She talks about one of the things she talks about is the nature of burnout and where it comes from.
[00:04:03] And she says this and I'll just read it and then maybe we can talk about it for a minute and we'll kind of dive deeper on the how to address breakdown stuff. But she says, burnout doesn't occur because we're solving problems. It occurs because we've been trying to solve the same problems over and over. The problem named is the problem solved. Both identify and confront the real obstacles in your path. Stay current with the people important to your success.
[00:04:32] Have those conversations. So for me, I think of the times when I start to get really worn out in ministry are when I see the same system breakdowns or the same behavior from a certain person that I haven't addressed. And it's trying to solve that same problem over and over again or probably having neglected the problem altogether or pushed it away because I don't want to deal with it. That's where we start to our batteries start to go down.
[00:05:01] So I don't know about you. If that's you're nodding, you're tracking with that. Imagine a lot of our listeners are. Yeah, it's and I want to sort of piggyback on top of that idea is that I think a really crucial part of this whole thing is that before you go into an accountable conversation, you have to be accountable to what's going on inside of you as a leader. Oh, for sure. Because which version of me am I bringing into that room? I need to be pretty self-aware as to what's going on.
[00:05:30] Like I just shared with my congregation yesterday, we're preaching on James and I'm glad there's only five chapters because I don't know if I could take much more of James. It's so like convicting and hard. Yeah, yeah. But one of the things was I was thinking about all of my life's pursuits this summer and all the things that I said yes to. Yeah. And now looking back, I'm realizing that I shouldn't have said yes to everything because now I'm pretty fried.
[00:06:00] And as I'm thinking through those things, like the analogy of coffee spilling out of your cup, you know, someone's bumped into you, coffee spills out. Well, coffee spills out because that's what was in your cup. And so I think what is it that's spilling out of me right now? Honestly, I've got a short fuse. I'm easily frustrated. I'm tired. And so I need to be just really aware of that.
[00:06:26] If I need to have an accountable conversation with somebody, I need to be accountable with where my own emotions and everything is. And I think that's what that quote reminded me of. It does. And there's a lot of things we could kind of add to that, right? We know if we just if we're not willing to address stuff, it's going to grow and it's going to grow in us. It's going to make our jobs harder. We're going to maybe start dreading coming to work or we're going to start going down the other hallway when we see that person coming through the door.
[00:06:54] And like it's all that stuff that I think what I take from her quote and then kind of what you're saying, that's the stuff that erodes our well-being at work and makes us less effective as leaders and isn't good for us long run. And that's the stuff where we kind of burn out and crash and all that. And so there's a lot at stake, not only for the organization and the mission and things, but also for our own well-being to have the courage to have these kinds of conversations.
[00:07:20] And it's part of our role as leaders is to learn how to do this well. And you said something right there that I think is important as you're going into an accountable conversation where we got to take stock of really what's going on in us and where am I? What am I bringing into this?
[00:07:38] And one way to think about that, Jason, is to think about what is the story that you've written in your mind about this person and the work that they're doing or the breakdown or whatever is going on. What is your story about that person?
[00:07:55] And part of that story is informed, of course, by maybe false assumptions we have about them or lots of past experiences of seeing the same behavior over and over and over again where like that person can never change. Or maybe the story is, wow, that person is the one I count on so much and they didn't follow through. Like they said, I feel betrayed by that or and I thought I could trust them and they let me down.
[00:08:20] So understanding our stories and also the story of what's going on with us is really crucial. We're going to have a healthy, accountable conversation about a breakdown. So that's where I would start. You know, before you go in, you don't just wing it. Right. You got to show up prepared. Right. At least have thought it through. What are the things that I want to bring in that I know I'm bringing in that are part of part of the things that I've noticed and things that I want to be able to be clear about that?
[00:08:49] Yeah, because clear is kind. You know, I mean, you've probably heard that before, but I think a lot of times we think in terms of trying to be nice and whatever, and we're not as harder to tell the truth and all that. But if we can be clear about the story that we've written in our how we understand and see things, and if we can go in with a posture of curiosity about what happened, that's going to serve as well. So my old leadership coach, Bill Palmer, said, master your stories. Be the master of your stories.
[00:09:19] Know your story with your organization, with the people in it, so that you can bring that in and kind of have that awareness going into those conversations. That's good. That's good. All right. Remind us of the five, and then let's jump in. Here's kind of the big things. I'll go back to my notes from last time here. So we're going to notice breakdowns, and we're going to address them because that's who we are as leaders, and we know it's good for us and for the organization. Right? So the first thing we're going to do is declare and identify the breakdown.
[00:09:47] Hey, I thought we had agreed to, and I noticed that. Right? That's kind of the language, however you want to say it. You know, hey, we talked about, and you said you were going to, and I noticed it didn't happen, and I wonder what happened. And as we're doing that, we're going in with very positive assumptions that something happened that we're going to figure out together, and we're going to turn it from this to solving a problem together. So to yell at them, why didn't you listen to me?
[00:10:16] Why don't you ever do what you say you're going to do? Character attacks very rarely are very helpful in these kinds of things. You mean it's not effective? Well, probably not going to lead to long-term good outcomes, right? It might be how you feel, but again, you're mastering your stories. You've got your emotions. Mastering my story. That's it. You're going to be the one that is going to bring kind of that calm, hey, tell me what happened. You know, like, what happened there? So we agreed, and I noticed. And so we're going to notice that a breakdown has occurred.
[00:10:43] And Jason, you and I, we could stop right here and probably list 500 in our careers, maybe 1,000. I don't know. You know, it's all the stuff I mentioned about the doors not being opened, right? And man, I've had that breakdown a few times where I am going away. Our worship team's going away. We have somebody that says, I'm going to open the building. And they like open four doors and turn a couple lights on. And I'm like, no, here was the list. Like we agreed to get the coffee. You got to turn the coffee machine on.
[00:11:12] It takes 20 minutes to warm up. Like, anyway, those kinds of things, right? Lots of breakdowns. And some of them are not a huge deal and can be addressed quickly and easily. Others are really important stuff. Like, you know, you said you were going to talk to your volunteer about their behavior around our young people. And they're making people feel uncomfortable. And you said you were going to do that. But I noticed that they're still around. And have you had that conversation? I'm wondering about that.
[00:11:39] So there's kind of a different, there's a range of these kinds of accountable conversations, right? But they're important. So first thing, ID the breakdown. We agreed or we had talked about and you said yes or however you want to phrase that. And I noticed that it didn't happen or it didn't happen the way we talked about. So what happened? So then you listen. And you listen for understanding, right? That's the assuming positive intent. And most of the time people aren't meaning to mess up or, you know, there might be things that we need to figure out.
[00:12:06] So we listen and we get curious and we say, help me understand what happened. So that's second. So declare and identify the breakdown. Second, listen for understanding. And then third, be curious and investigate. So maybe the first part of the accountable conversation is I noticed and I wonder, tell me what happened. And they share their perspective. Then you go, okay, well, let's check in about this again later. I appreciate you sharing with me your perspective on what happened. And then you get curious. You investigate.
[00:12:36] You kind of do a little digging around and figure out, is that really what happened and what's going on? So that's where we start to get into when we do that investigation. We start to understand the nature of the breakdown. And that's where we're going to go deeper. How do we have conversations about breakdowns that are a one-time occurrence? How do we have breakdowns around system failures?
[00:12:59] How do we have conversations when it's a breakdown related to a skill gap or a person just can't because they haven't been trained or they don't have the skills or maybe capacity? And that's a harder one. And then fourth, what happens when somebody just plain doesn't want to do that? And it's a willingness issue. And that's where often we have to go, you know what, is it worth trying to rewrite the story with this person to get a new beginning? Or do we just need to go our separate ways?
[00:13:27] And that's kind of the discernment over the top of all this, Jason, is we've mastered our stories. We're going to build a story about this breakdown and we're going to get to the end of it. And we're going to wonder, is this a story that can be written in a new way going forward to prevent future breakdowns? Or do we need to do something different here? And that's the super hard conversation where we maybe have to let someone go or put them in a new position or, I don't know, firing a volunteer.
[00:13:56] That's like the hardest one of all because they're not even on the payroll. They're doing it out of their goodwill. So we'll get to those kinds of things too. So declare the breakdown, listen for understanding, be curious about it. What kind of breakdown is it? And then when you get through it, hopefully you can recommit to the agreement. Okay, so next time when you open the building, you're going to remember all the doors. You're going to remember to turn the heat on in the nursery because we got it.
[00:14:22] When moms walk in there with their baby, it needs to be 72 degrees, not 58 degrees, but it's going to warm up pretty soon. Okay, like these are the kinds of things that we want to address. So we're going to recommit to the agreement and then we're going to move forward. And that's great. And what we want to do when we recommit and move forward is we want to catch them succeeding as quickly as possible. So the very next time that person opens the building and they do it all right, even if it's not 100% perfect,
[00:14:48] but it's pretty close to what we agreed to, we go, hey, I noticed and thank you. It matters so much that we have the heat on for the nursery. That's awesome. It makes our moms and their kids feel right at home and welcome and our nursery team loves it. So thank you. You're helping us accomplish our mission, some version of that, right? And then that's that fifth piece is catch them succeeding. So you recommit, you move forward and you catch them succeeding. But Bill Palmer also said this. This is kind of a sixth hidden one.
[00:15:17] So he said, plan on a recurrence of the breakdown. It's just, it's going to happen. That's very wise. Yeah, it's just going to happen again. So this isn't a one-time thing. It's a reinforcement over time. But you can prevent future breakdowns or you can get ahead of those things a lot of time by reinforcing the right things, right? Catch them succeeding, catch them succeeding. And the number of times Bill Palmer said that to us in this leadership course that I took for
[00:15:45] management for pastors, I was like, Bill, yeah, we get the idea. But he would catch us succeeding all the time. You'd be like, yeah, Jesse, that is right. You got that right. We, you know, we talked about that last week and then you remembered it this week. Good job. And I felt so good. And I was like, I'm going to remember more stuff. Right. So kind of reinforces that good behavior. That's good. So let's, um, let's take kind of a deeper dive on each one of these, uh, because I think fleshing it out is really helpful to kind of understand it or get our heads around it. So, yeah. So, uh, that first one.
[00:16:15] Yeah. One-time occurrence stuff, right? Those are the ones we hope to have. Those kinds of breakdowns are everywhere. And I'm sure we need to be held accountable for our one-time breakdowns kind of things. But these are like one-off instances where something didn't happen that should have. And, uh, that's that, again, you want to just get curious and, uh, come alongside someone in a kind of a problem solving mode. And you say, so it's something like, uh, tell me what happened. So I noticed that the nursery heat wasn't on. Tell me what happened.
[00:16:43] And they go, well, I couldn't find the, the remote to turn on the units. And so it was missing. And you go, okay. Um, all right. Well, where is it? And you kind of explore it together and figure out that problem. Or, uh, you know what? I just forgot, Jason, I, I, I forgot to do it and I'm so sorry. And you go, okay, now I understand what happened. You were not quite awake yet and you forgot to do what you said you were going to do. And so now we're operating from a place of shared understanding.
[00:17:12] But the next piece is, uh, just a quick brainstorm together about how do we prevent that from happening again? How do we make sure that that doesn't happen again? And that's where we ask open-ended kinds of questions and go, you know, what are some things that we might do for anybody that's doing your role or, and certainly for you to make sure that, that we don't have that happen again. And you just kind of brainstorm together and come up with thoughts and ideas. You know what? Maybe if we mount the remote on the wall, right? Right.
[00:17:42] Or, or maybe if there's, um, you know, as you're walking to the nursery and, uh, uh, on the way back out, there's a little, uh, card on the door that says, did you remember to turn the heat off or on the lights off or on? I don't know. It's like brainstorming potential solutions. Right. And helping them succeed and you're agreeing and thinking about how do we make sure it doesn't happen again in the future? So now I understand what happened. How do we make sure it doesn't happen again? Yeah.
[00:18:09] How do you, how do you do that without sounding really condescending? Yeah. Like, how do you do that without like, so how do we make sure that doesn't happen? You know what I mean? I think Jason, this is, uh, and maybe it goes across all of this management stuff. You got to do it with a little bit of tongue in cheek, like a little, now there needs to be some serious ones. We'll get to that in a minute where you just got to be straight with people.
[00:18:36] So, but I think it's, it's, you kind of got to make fun of it a little bit. Right. Yeah. Um, in a good, not in a way that undermines it, but that acknowledges how silly this conversation feels. Right. When we talk about smart goals, we haven't done those in a long time. Is it specific, measurable, agreed upon resources, timetable? Let's agree on a smart goal. So my staff, they, they roll their eyes when I'm talking about smart goals. Right. Cause it's feels so old. That's, you know, condescending.
[00:19:03] But I'm like, listen, we just, we want to be clear and we want to know what we're agreeing to and the time we're going to take. So we call it that. And so we all kind of make fun of it a little bit because then it doesn't, it kind of acknowledges that this is like a management thing and we're all the team and we collaborate, but this is something I have to do, you know? And so there is a little bit of that, you know, I don't know. What is your approach been? You kind of, how do you do that stuff?
[00:19:27] Well, um, I think I just, I usually just kind of name, you know, name how awkward it feels to sort of talk about it. Like, I'll just be like, Hey, I know, I know this is obvious, but, but in what ways can we just make sure this doesn't happen? Cause I mean, you, you know, you know how important this is and, you know, just a reminder if this doesn't happen. So I really want to make sure I think, and I also affirm a lot. I mean, like, I think you're the right person for this.
[00:19:56] So how do we just make sure that we clean that up? Yeah. And I think sometimes too, you can almost, uh, you're trying to get to a partnership level, right? This is not boss and employee hierarchy. It's like, we're solving this together. So, you know, it's like, Hey, and if there's anything I need to do that to help make sure that you're successful here, you know, just let me know, you know, and maybe sometimes it can be, and, and if somebody else was doing your role, you know, what would you, how would you coach them on this?
[00:20:24] You know, it's like, yeah, it's that kind of stuff, but it's a partnership kind of conversation rather than a, yeah. And I usually come in and I'll say, Oh, Hey, you know, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough or I'm sorry if you weren't sure what to, you know, like I'll try to own that upfront to sort of diffuse it a little bit and then be able to kind of talk about it because it could be that I wasn't clear, you know, but so where I start the assumption is that I had a part to play in this and it didn't lead to the outcome that we wanted.
[00:20:54] Um, and I don't think that's disingenuous. I just think that's like, and I think sometimes it can be saying maybe I wasn't clear enough about how important that was to me when we talked about it, you know, that's, that's a real piece of honesty there, right? Because part of it is we're on, aren't always as clear with people about the agreement as we think we are. We thought we communicated really well and they might be like, Jason, I didn't, I didn't understand that it mattered that much to you. And you go, Oh, now I understand. I just bad at communication. So yeah, it was not your fault.
[00:21:24] Actually, I need to do better at be really telling you what matters most to me here or something. Yeah. Um, but these are ones, you know, I, as I heard this and, uh, one of my fears related to this one, it was sort of getting into micromanagement land where we're noticing lots of little breakdowns and we're jumping all over everything. And I, you know, there's a culture of, uh, that we want to have a culture of excellence and, and that kind of thing, but nobody wants to feel like someone's looking over their shoulder the whole time either.
[00:21:54] Yeah. And so that's where, you know, uh, infusing language in here of, I really trust you to get this done. I just, I happened to notice it this time and I wanted to address it with you because it, you know, it is important. And so tell me what happened, you know, like, and it's kind of back to, you know, you're the right person for this. Um, and you crush this all the time. So I know something must've happened. Just tell me, you know, let's talk through it or something like that. Yeah. Um, and that keeps that, that relational sense that they hopefully walk away feeling like,
[00:22:23] uh, you, you trust them, you value them. You're, you're grateful for them. You know, you're not going, man, you messed up again. Right. That's, that's not what we want people to feel. So, so one-time occurrences, those are things that we still need to be attentive to because if we notice something and we don't say something, well, one, it might happen over and over again. It causes bigger problems that, you know, push up into the system level or, uh, or we start
[00:22:51] to write a bad story in our minds about that person because we weren't willing to address it early. And so now we start thinking that person just too lazy to walk across the room and turn the heat on for the nursery. Yeah. Maybe this, you know, like, that's not true. Like what person is that person? Right. So it's when our pretend conversations start happening, we go, Oh, I, I need to get back to that, that conversation with them. So those are one-time circumstances. I would say that's most breakdowns are one-off things, especially with people we trust and
[00:23:20] that are doing a great job in most cases. And we go, Hey, what happened? I'm curious. How can I help? Let's make sure, um, what can I do better? You know, all that kind of thing. Uh, the second one is system problem. System level problems. And this is where a lot of church problems live at the system level too. Uh, and we might notice something going on in our, maybe our connection system or, uh, our guest welcome or something. And we're like, how come we're just not getting, we're not getting very many connection cards back.
[00:23:49] Or how come we're not getting a lot of clicks on our, you know, our page to, to do something. And so we kind of, we look at it and we go, you know, there's a breakdown happening here. And I noticed that, and I'm thinking this is a system breakdown that there's something here that a piece of the process or a piece of the system's not, not functioning. Uh, either that person's not doing that part of the system well enough, or they don't understand the system or the system itself is not the right one.
[00:24:18] So Jason, you are a master of systems. I feel like that's in some ways. I mean, whether you feel that way or not, I think you're really good at the system, right? You think in terms of systems. And, uh, we heard, uh, way back. I still have this sign on my wall. The vision on the wall is only as good as the system down the hall. I mean, you and I've held onto that over the years in our ministry and why are systems so important? Maybe we start there and then we'll talk about how do we address breakdowns in system?
[00:24:45] Well, I mean, because you're never going to get where you want to go, uh, ministry wise or organizationally, if you don't have the right system. So you're always going to be the gravitational pull is always to the system. So for example, let's say, and this is one of the big ones that we needed to change early on. And now, you know, it was probably 10 years ago we did this, but we kept noticing that we never seem to have enough in our budget for the things that we felt God calling us to do in a given year.
[00:25:14] And this is usually like new ministry initiatives. We felt like there's just no more money left. It's all taken. And so we're like scrapping to get the money that we feel like we need to do things. And after a couple of years of this, like what's going on? Well, that's when we realized it's a systems problem. The system was our budgeting process was an entitlement budget where every team asked for what they got last year, plus a percentage more. And it was all competing for resources.
[00:25:45] And, oh yeah, we'll, um, we got to spend all our money before the end of the year. Otherwise it won't give us as much next year. Right. It was like that. And so that's when we sort of nuked the whole thing. And we said, no, no, no, we're going to a mission based budget. And we said, what are the big couple of things that we think God wants us to do? Those go on the budget first. Now, almost everything else got back on the budget at a different rate, but it made sure we had the resources we needed for. We thought mattered most in a given year.
[00:26:15] And we still do that. So the system had to change or else we were going to keep fighting, running into a wall and not getting where we need to go. Right. And so that's any system. That's right. And so it, it, it, it's a little different than, um, like a task that you can notice and address, right? This is a little different issue. And so we're talking about when we're dealing with our systems, who's the right person to declare the breakdown and say, Hey, something's not working in this system.
[00:26:43] And it may be, hopefully you have, you know, clear lines of sight in your, your org charts and things like that. But sometimes the system breakdown is, is like inside of a team that's doing something like our, our budgeting. Right. And so now we have to declare that breakdown and we maybe get that person. Maybe it's our treasurer or our finance committee chair or something. And we say, something's not working here because we keep saying that we want to push into new territory and do things that we feel the Lord's calling us to.
[00:27:10] But I noticed we just keep doing the same thing year after year, after year, after year, what's going on in the system that's causing us to not be able to move towards what we said is a priority for us. And now we're again, what are we doing? We've turned to taking it from my finance chair. He's just so stubborn. He hates change. He doesn't want to do anything new. He blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's a character attack or it's a, the, that team, you know, that team's worthless. You know, we need to clean out the whole team and start over again, whatever.
[00:27:39] Sometimes people need to be changed out, but sometimes there's a system issue that we go, you know, we've never, we've never worked through our system to recalibrate it for the goals that we actually set. So we got to get in there now and talk about our budgeting system in order to create that space for those new things that we want to do. And so that's going to include conversations, a breakdown conversation with your treasurer, probably your finance person, and maybe your staff that are spending all their dollars in
[00:28:09] order to get the same amount and a little bit more next year. And how are we going to do this? And so when you get to that kind of breakdown, you go, okay, we said we wanted some new initiatives. We noticed they're not happening. What can we do to prevent that in the future? How do we make sure that we do that? And I think that's, again, declaring the breakdown. Something's broken in our system that needs to be fixed for that goal. So that's a little harder one to declare, but it's so vital.
[00:28:38] And often as the senior leader, we're in the best position to declare that breakdown. Now, sometimes it's training our people to notice a system breakdown and name it. So you have awesome guest services, you know, folks. And who's your gift services lead? Suzanne. Suzanne, that's right. Suzanne's amazing, right? And so Suzanne is going to go, you know what, something's not working in our connection system anymore.
[00:29:02] Like it worked for years, but now we're not seeing as many new people sharing their information with us. What's going on? And we had a family come last week and they came and they seemed to have a really good time, but we didn't get any of their information. What can we do to prevent that from happening again? Yeah. So helping our team to even think those things. So identifying those breakdowns and then brainstorming together. A lot of times at a team level or with that person, what are we going to do to, you know,
[00:29:31] what are some things we could try? You know, is it like a photo booth and then we get their email in order to send them the photo? That's like the old trick, right? What are we going to do to make sure this doesn't happen again? And that's where, you know, you invite your finance team person to be part of the solution rather than to be the target of your frustration. And so I find most people respond well to an invitation to think differently. I don't know. How did it go with your folks when you guys were addressing those system things?
[00:30:00] Did you have some stuck in the mudders and some open to change? Absolutely. Absolutely. There were some folks who were stuck in the mud and that's to be expected because, and it just so happens they were the people at the wheel of the status quo. Yeah. So they don't want to change the status quo. They like how it works. And it makes sense to them and they don't see the problem. And it's funny. Once we shifted it up, we saw real ministry movement. And it seems so silly.
[00:30:29] How you build your budget matters that much, but it does. But any systemic problem is like that. It could be that you have the wrong staffing model. And this is something we look at every single year. Are we staffed correctly for where we're trying to go? Because if you're not, it's actually going to be really hard to make that up in ministry initiatives because you're just not going to quite have the right system to really make that flourish. It's going to be fits and starts mostly. Right.
[00:30:56] So, again, guest services systems, member systems. Why aren't people signing up for small groups? Or how come it used to be we would do these things and now it's not working so much? It's a systems problem. Right. So. Yeah. Yeah. And there are system problems and then there are process problems. Right. A system is run by a series of processes. And so sometimes a process in the system is the problem that needs to be addressed. And often those processes are associated with a person.
[00:31:24] And then you go back to the one-off breakdown stuff and go, hey, you know what? The reason why that family wasn't on our radar is because you didn't enter their information at the children's check-in. Like it is so vitally important for us to do. You know, like you said, oh, just go ahead. You're running a little late and I'll get your information later. No. Well, that's hopefully a one-time kind of breakdown that then can be addressed within a process related to a system. So these are all really important.
[00:31:50] So I think when you're thinking about a system breakdown though, and you go, something needs to change in the system. There are people with whom you will have to have honest conversations. Some of these accountable conversations. You know what? Let's make up a name for our finance guy, Jim. The way that we're doing it is not moving us toward our mission. Right. And we've been doing it this way for a long time and it's worked well in our past, but I feel like there's something in the system that's not working.
[00:32:19] So let's talk about that. And let's think about what system we could use now and try to invite them in. And I think there's a cost piece to this. It's sometimes it's maybe we need new technology, but sometimes it means we need a new person in that role or something. And that's where you say we noticed a system breakdown. It might be related to a process that we need to address and have some one-off conversations about those one-time breakdowns.
[00:32:45] Or it might be that we need to change some people out or change some of the ways we do it out. And it's bigger. And so then you have to ask the question something like, is the change worth the cost? You had a system issue. Is the change worth the cost? Is trying to get your treasurer fired worth the cost? Yeah. That's a question you got to ask yourself. Yeah.
[00:33:10] Is introducing a new database management system for the church worth the cost? Worth the cost of importing and exporting all those names and all the history and training people? Is it worth the cost? And if the answer to that is yes, because the system is so important. You know, we've noticed the breakdown in the system. Something's not working. Is it worth the cost to change that system or the people that are within it? And if the answer is yes, which I think when it comes to these big systems, it's so important.
[00:33:40] When the answer is yes, then we have to think about how are we going to deliver on that? And how are we, and this is so important, how are we going to communicate that change to everyone? Yeah. So here's a lot of times what happens. We notice a problem in a system. We address it with a few people. We work on some solutions together. We may even put some resources toward it or move some people around. But we don't tell everybody else. And so all of a sudden we've changed the system, but nobody else knows it. They're still operating under the old system mindset.
[00:34:10] And so communicating clearly about the change in the system and how is it that we're going to do things now? What is this system going to look like now and the related processes? And so communicate that system change and do whatever training you need to do to get your people to engage with the new one. And I got to say, this is where I fall short a lot of times. There are so many things where I've assumed that people know about the changes we've made. And I'm like, why aren't they doing it the new way?
[00:34:40] And then they're like, well, just because you never told us that, right? I'm like, didn't I tell you that? I meant to tell you that or whatever. So communicating the new system is so essential. So notice, talk about it with the core people that are most involved. Decide the level of importance. Is this worth the cost of change? And then if you do change the system, you got to communicate it really, really well and reinforce it through those catch and succeedings and all that kind of stuff.
[00:35:06] And we go, hey, I noticed we changed our system last year for budgeting. And this year we had three new ministry initiatives. That is super cool. Nicely done, everybody. It's that kind of stuff. All right. Anything else on that one? So we got system breakdowns. We kind of talked that one to the ground. We'll go a little bit quicker on this next one. If the breakdown is because the person can't do it, you know, it's like, OK, well, what's that about?
[00:35:34] Again, we're assuming the best good intentions and this person wants to do it. They just can't do it for whatever reason. So you go, hey, I noticed in what happened. They tell their version of the story and you go, OK, well, have you been trained on how to do that? Well, no, nobody ever taught me how to use the children's check-in system and get people's information. Or we're like, OK, well, let's fix that. And then we move on. We go from there. So we go, maybe it's a skill gap or a training gap. Or on a rare occasion, it's a capacity gap.
[00:36:04] You know, we're like, hey, I noticed that your, you know, your budget is always running way over. And what's going on with that? Well, I just don't speak spreadsheet. And I just never have been that kind of person. And we go, OK, you know what? We're going to bring a volunteer in to help you with that piece because that's just not how you're wired. And we want you to be set up for success. So has the person been trained? Do we need to do some remedial training, make sure that they know how to do what they need to do?
[00:36:30] Is there a resource issue or a skill gap that we can address and make sure they're set up for success? And then here's what Bill said one time. He said, don't believe them when they say they can do it until you've seen them do it. OK. And I think this is, again, we're not trying to be condescending here. But it's, you know, for your children's director, go with that volunteer to the children's check-in. Have them show you that they know how to do it now. You've trained them.
[00:36:59] Now have them practice it so that you can go, OK, I can see that you can actually do it now. So good job. Can't wait to see you doing it or whatever. So we want to notice and we want to actually verify that it can, in fact, be done and not just take their word for it. OK, now I can do it or whatever. And then sometimes it's a person's trying real hard and they just can't do it for whatever reason. And we have to go, you know what? Maybe this is not the spot for you.
[00:37:27] We have, you know, an issue here. It's just a fit issue. You're just not the person to do all the detailed church calendar planning because you're more of a big picture person. And so you're always forgetting stuff and things are falling through the cracks. So maybe it's not that you it's not a willingness issue. It's just that you're trying, but it's against your wiring and it's not working. And this has this happens all the time. And the problem is, is that most of us don't do anything about it.
[00:37:57] Right. And we just sort of hope it gets better. Yeah. And I think the only way to get to improvement where you want to go is is to have these conversations like, hey, look. This. I think I think there's a better place for you to serve. Yeah. And it's not because you're not trying. It's just not working out, you know, and that's OK. That's how not everybody can do everything, you know. Yeah. And we have different gifts and different wiring and different personalities.
[00:38:24] It's in so and we want people working within their strengths most of the time in their job. You know, if you work against your core wiring for the most of your job, you're going to go insane. You're going to be frustrated. It's not going to lead to good outcomes. So sometimes it's like a can't issue and it's not a willingness issue. And it's just it's because it's not the right fit. And so we do something different. Right. And we treat people like we really try to be respectful in the way that we have those conversations.
[00:38:52] And then the last one, Jason, is the one that hopefully we don't bump into a whole lot in the church. But frankly, I have and I know you have and I know we've talked about it. But if the breakdown is because the person won't do it, then then what? Yeah. These are hard. Right. And sometimes this is at the volunteer level where they think they may be no better than your staff person in charge or something.
[00:39:19] They have their own ideas or people who have rose colored glasses looking at the past or have an axe to grind. And they're just not there. I won't do it. Right. And it's usually a little more passive aggressive than that. Right. Nobody's coming out and just being like, I refuse. Right. Well, that's easy. But if they're if they're saying, you know, or, you know, they're not actually doing the thing and they're showing that they don't have a willingness to do what we need them to do. And how do we have that conversation? Well, I think we have to notice it.
[00:39:48] And again, be curious about is this a capacity issue? Is it a I'm trying, but I can't issue? Or is it I just plain don't want to? I don't want to learn it. I don't want to do it that way. And if that's the case, Jason's going to tell us what we should do next. Honestly, if that's the case, it's OK. Well, let's, yeah, you know, let's move on from this opportunity because we really. Right.
[00:40:14] And sometimes it can be this is you go, well, why won't you do it? Yeah. And being curious me, well, tell me, you know, what happened and why? Why don't you want to do it that way? Well, there might be actually a really good reason. I won't do it that way because it makes other people feel bad. And it works against our core mission. And you just you haven't noticed that. And I'm like, whoa, OK, well, if that's why you won't do it, let's fix it. You know, like so maybe. Yeah.
[00:40:44] Yeah. Billy Graham's response to stuff like that was always you may be right. I'm going to pray about that. Yeah. Yeah. And it could be. And yeah, there might be a I won't because of some important reason. Right. That we need to explore and discover. And maybe it's it's good. And then if they won't because of, you know, I don't I won't come for a 9 a.m. meeting because I stay up late working with college students till 11 p.m. I just not going to do it. Well, is there an acceptable alternative?
[00:41:13] What if we bump the meeting to 10 without work for you? You know, so there there can be some give and take and trying to work around the things that are making it hard. And then I think if we get to the end of that conversation and we're going, this person is just unwilling to do what it takes to do the job. I think the question becomes, are we willing to let them go to terminate their employment if they're employed or to let them go as a volunteer and hopefully push them in a different direction?
[00:41:39] But if that that one to issue is is there, I think that's where we have to go. OK, is it time just to move on from this story? It can't be rewritten. We got to do something different. And so if that's that, I would say it's something like this, that when it's a willingness issue, when when there's clarity about what the job is and what it takes to do it, and there's an unwillingness to do it, then that person is making their own decision about the job right or the volunteer role. And that's where you just kind of go something like this.
[00:42:07] We say something like, I understand that you don't want to do it. Unfortunately, the job requires that it be done. There's no question that you can do it. We've explored that. And if you choose not to do it, you are choosing not to have the job. Now, that's really easy to say when I have it written down here in nice four little bullet points. It's a lot harder in person. And we maybe say something at the end of that. I would hate to see that happen, but it's your choice. Here's the job.
[00:42:37] Here's what it takes. If you're not willing to do it, you're saying to me, you don't want the job. And so figuring out and maybe even practicing that a handful of times before you go in. Here's what the job is. Here's what we agreed to. You're not doing it. You don't want to. You're choosing not to have that job. So getting through that and reiterating that that's not what you want to see happen. But if that's what happens, that's what happens.
[00:43:05] And in a certain sense, in that case, someone kind of fires themselves, right? We go, okay, this isn't going to work then. How do we move on? And when we get to the point of moving somebody on, I still think we want to maintain the relational piece as much as possible. Even though this didn't work, I want you to know I really value you, care about you. I want something good in your life. And so if I can help you find something else that you do want to do and you feel excited about, let me know.
[00:43:33] It's kind of reinforcing some of the relational stuff. Even if they're not going to receive that super well in the moment, you want to continue to do that. So that's a lot, Jason. That's like 40 minutes of stuff. Hopefully there's some helpful little nuggets in here about how do we manage well? How do we set clear expectations and agreements, notice people, catch them succeeding, and then addressing breakdowns when they're happening, either at the individual level or in the system level or in the training level or the want to level.
[00:44:03] Just being the kind of leader that understands those dynamics so that we can, you know, not perfectly, but we can manage well and try to be healthy ourselves and not burn out because we're frustrated by the same problems over and over and over again. And then we can really make a difference for our mission. So we covered a lot of ground inside of these two episodes. Exactly. I was just thinking that. And that's good. You know, I think these two episodes are really just sort of like a resource to come back to.
[00:44:29] You know, maybe pastors, you don't have an issue right now, but maybe, you know, down the road this fall, something happens. You're like, oh, wait, you know what? I remember hearing about this. And you could kind of go back and check it out. I think that's probably exactly what I'm going to do, you know, the next time something's up. Just to remind myself about these and because I think part of it, and we'll circle back to sort of what we were talking about earlier, is that part of it's keeping your own level head.
[00:44:57] And the way that you keep a level head in these conversations is awareness and, you know, using some sort of a standard or a rubric or, you know, some sort of a list to talk through. It helps take the emotion out of it and for you to just kind of go through a process, which I think is generally the way to go and beneficial. And it stops you from that sort of knee-jerk reaction.
[00:45:26] It gets you thinking in a process. That's right. Yeah. And if you're having consistent check-ins with your staff and stuff, these kinds of conversations can come up all the time. Where are the breakdowns in our system right now that need to be addressed? Like it doesn't have to wait till it's an issue, right? And I think we're also communicating, we're paying attention and it matters to us. I noticed and it matters for the mission. I mean, all those pieces come into this style of relational management and organizational management.
[00:45:53] So anyway, there's other pieces they get into about documenting when things are not going well and all that. But really it was hopefully just helping us to have a few tools to be reminded to have conversations because they change everything for us and for the people that we're working with and hopefully moves us forward. So yeah, I enjoy this stuff, Jason. I get really kind of geeked out on all these things. So I'm sure people are like, all right, that was a level of detail that we just did. Anyway, it's good stuff. Good stuff.
[00:46:23] Thanks for bringing this to us. And again, pastors, feel free to reach out to us. We love talking shop. And as we're getting ready in real time, gosh, fall is almost upon us. For our kids, their high school football has started. So it feels like the school year is just around the corner and it's fun. Excited for the routine. This summer has been very scattered for us as a family. So it's going to be nice getting back in a routine. But same with you, pastor.
[00:46:52] You may be enjoying your last little bit of vacation. Enjoy every drop of it. Take care of yourselves. And as we always say, ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together. Take care.