[00:00:00] I know it may that may feel like that's really aggressive, but a lot of people are more open to that than you may think. And maybe it's not the first time they visit, but once you sort of see them a while like, hey, if you ever have any questions, and this is the way I usually approach them like, hey, if you ever have any questions, you know, just let me know happy to answer them or if you ever want to grab coffee or something like I just kind of throw it out there.
[00:00:25] Maybe 30% of the time they say, I would love to grab coffee. Let's figure that out. Welcome to episode 461. Last week we talked about your welcome ministry for new guests. Now, what do you do to follow up? How do you engage them in the life of the church? This is where even some of the most welcoming churches tend to struggle because they don't have an assimilation strategy. Guest Follow-Up and Assimilation. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:53] Welcome to the Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington. We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us, and some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.
[00:01:19] Welcome back to the Reclaimed Leader Podcast, episode 461. Jesse, this is awesome. We keep cranking along. It's funny. You think we'd run out of things to say or run out of ministry areas to focus on.
[00:01:32] But what I find is the ministry areas that we talked about a million times on these episodes continue to be the areas that require attention all the time. Guest follow-up, welcoming, all these things. It's like if you don't pay attention to these things, they just kind of get away from you and lose their punch over time.
[00:01:53] Yeah, I think you're right. There's sort of a tendency for us to, you know, leaders are kind of entrepreneurial minded, right? So maintenance stuff is a little harder. And we have to come back and kind of tighten things back up again or reinitiate a process or do some new, some training again with people or new people.
[00:02:12] And sometimes that gets pushed to the side because we're focused on the next challenge or problem or whatever. But these are the sort of the engine that keeps things going. I mean, this is the really important stuff. So appreciate getting to have these conversations and thinking about just that very important first part of the experience in our churches of welcoming and how do we follow up and help people connect. Yeah. And I know we use it in the title assimilation. I never loved that by the way of talking about people.
[00:02:42] Like coming into your church. I never loved that word for that, but I don't know what else to say there. So that's what made the title. But the idea is how are we helping people join the life of the church, engage, be part of the community. And there's a strategy to that. And the strategy is just making sure we keep it easy and not confusing.
[00:03:03] And because things in church become confusing really fast. I told you that story before about how for years I didn't know what a narthex was. Every time the pastor had mentioned the word narthex, I had to pretend I knew where he was talking about in the church. And so one day I asked somebody, I'm like, listen, I'm really embarrassed because, you know, I work here at the church. But, you know, I mean, I didn't grow up in church. I'm like, what's a narthex?
[00:03:31] And I got laughed at. And they said, oh, it's just like the lobby. I'm like, why don't we just say lobby? Anyway. But so but it's easy for that to happen in the life of the church. We use churchy insider language and people don't know what we're talking about. How do we make it easy for them to belong, to be part of what we're doing in our journey of discipleship with Jesus Christ?
[00:03:54] So last week we talked about your welcome ministry and how do we make sure that's dialed in? Maybe you're launching or relaunching that. Today is all about, well, what do you do after the guests come? How do we follow up? What what are some strategies that we have for that? And I churches have a lot of different strategies for this.
[00:04:14] I think it's important to just sort of ask, how are we helping people find a next step in their life with God, in their life with the church? That may be a simpler way of saying it. And we've we've talked for years about pathways and I talk about it in the book. We talk about it, especially at Christmas time. This is like one of the one of the easiest pathways to figure out because you probably already have ministries going on between now and Christmas.
[00:04:44] So how do you connect the dots? How do you make them stepping stones for people to get engaged in a closer way with God and in life of the church? So, again, this fall, ours looks exactly the same. I probably said when I mentioned this in 2015 or whenever it was that we did. But so for 10 years, it's probably about the same.
[00:05:03] We have some sort of fall event this year. It's Tower Hill Day. We're going to have inflatables, cider donuts, cider, encouraging everyone between services to hang out and to have fun. Then that's it. There's no ulterior motive. We're not doing signups. We're not trying to recruit people. It's literally it's fun. It's fall. Welcome back. Let's hang out. Then and then at Tower Hill Day, we're inviting them to the next fun let's hang out thing.
[00:05:32] And that's our pancake breakfast, which happens in November, but the weekend before Thanksgiving. Hey, make sure you come back. You're going to come back. You want to get those pancakes and sausages, you know, but it's another fun thing to bring. Your family to really great way to meet other people. And then when they're on that Sunday, then we start talking about Christmas on the Hill, which is just about a week later or two weeks later.
[00:05:56] Our big, you know, outward facing outreach event. We talk about it in church a lot. And then at Christmas on the Hill, we invite them to our Christmas Eve family service. So, again, how can you create a pathway of engagement with people who are just getting connected with your church? And this doesn't have to look like young families. It could look like retirees. It could look like, you know, divorced moms.
[00:06:20] It could look like widows. It could look like whatever it needs to look like. You can create a pathway of engagement. So that's kind of part of what we're talking about here. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's really good. And so then those pathways that are existing in the form of events or whatever are things that we can help our new guests connect with. Like they're natural landing points either to meet people and connect with them there or to say, hey, this is coming up. You should come and meet some people there.
[00:06:48] And so I like having those things that are like an entry point a little further into the community. Yeah. So if somebody shows up for church for the first time, they're welcomed. We're following up and we're like, hey, we have this Tower Hill Day or, you know, we have trunk or treat around the corner or whatever the thing is that you have. That's like just a natural invitation point and low threat. So it's good stuff. And we also launch our small groups in October, sign up, start, end of September.
[00:07:17] Some new people will be brave enough to join that, but we don't assume that they will because that is sort of a bigger ask or you now you're committing to six to eight weeks and you have a weekly group of some kind. So some will do it, a lot won't, but that is certainly part of how we engaging people in the life of the church as well. Totally. Yeah. I think the groups thing, what we've noticed works alongside that is definitely promoting them so people are aware of the groups.
[00:07:45] But it's a small percent, like you said, church people that come to a new church that are going to be proactively joining your group. Most of our people that find a group are invited by somebody in the group. Yeah. And so we're like, we really encourage our small groups and community groups be invitors. We say, hey, nice to meet you. You should come to community group. So now there's a relational kind of connection there as well.
[00:08:08] And I'm glad you brought that up because it's just a reminder that although you may make a big deal about Sunday morning as the entry point, there are other entry points in life of the church as well. It may not be Sunday morning. Sunday morning is like the biggest. But we often have people join our groups who have never been to church before. Sure. Yeah. For whatever reason. And that's how they get connected. Or they serve in a mission that we're doing.
[00:08:34] You know, a local mission that we're doing. They're like, oh, I want to help out or they're invited and they're comfortable starting there. So it's not just about Sunday morning, but I think either way, how are we getting, how are we following up with them? Yeah. You could really only follow up, of course, when you have their information. Not every guest is going to give you their information. That's probably by design. They're not ready to. So just let, try to remember them. Try to make sure you welcome them when you, and you recognize them. You're glad they're there.
[00:09:04] And you can invite them to sort of give some contact information and however you want to do that. But sometimes that takes a while. Don't be surprised because not everybody's just kind of ready, especially people who know church life. They don't want to get sucked in just yet. They're still checking things out. They're like, they want to be a little bit anonymous. So deciding, still deciding. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then, and before I kind of go into this list, and this originally was kind of a riff on some of the Dan Ryland stuff about why guests return.
[00:09:34] Um, don't be afraid to, when you make a connection with a guest to offer to grab coffee or to do some sort of one-on-one. I know it may, that may feel like that's really aggressive, but a lot of people are opened, more open to that than you may think. Mm-hmm.
[00:09:58] Um, and maybe it's not the first time they visit, but once you sort of see them a while, like, hey, if you ever have any questions, and this is the way I usually approach them. Like, hey, if you ever have any questions, you know, just let me know. Happy to answer them. Or if you ever want to grab coffee or something like that, just kind of throw it out there. Mm-hmm. And I would say maybe 30% of the time they say, I would love to grab coffee. Let's figure that out. Yeah. And the rest are like, oh, you know, thanks. I'd throw it out there.
[00:10:26] Because then, if you can get some time with them, some actual, I mean, one-on-one with the pastor, there's some really wonderful relational things that happen that get them engaged really fast. Totally. Yeah. I mean, if you kind of think of a three-legged stool of church involvement, it's like, are they connected with other people? Are they connected in some way with the pastor? And then their own personal faith. And it's kind of like, okay, so one of those things maybe brought them. But if you can forge that personal connection where they go, I think I like this person.
[00:10:55] I can trust this pastor. I feel connected to them. That goes a long way for people feeling like this can be their place, too. So, yeah. Those coffees, three out of ten, that's not bad, Jason. Yeah. I mean, I'd say that's pretty accurate, too. Yeah. Anyway, so here's this list. And just as something to think about, because a lot of, one of the questions I get asked by other church leaders a lot is, what makes people come back?
[00:11:22] And I sort of say the things, you know, they felt welcome, they felt this. But let's go, let's take that a little deeper. And again, some of this is from some of Dan Ryland's material. And I'm not remembering where the actual source was. It was probably a blog post he did a long time ago. But I had this list written down somewhere. So I'm just going to talk through it. Top ten reasons that guests return. The first one is the presence of God is felt.
[00:11:53] And this is a quote from Dan. When there is an unmistakable awareness of the presence and power of God at work, people are drawn in. They are hungry and they want more. So remember, let's keep the main thing, the main thing in all of this. Are we worshiping our hearts out? Are we making much of Jesus Christ every single Sunday? That's what matters most.
[00:12:24] If I'll just speak for myself. If somebody walks out of church on a Sunday morning and they feel like they don't know the gospel. I feel like I have failed. Or if they haven't heard about the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. If they haven't felt an invitation to go deeper in their relationship with Jesus Christ. What are we doing? What are we doing? So it doesn't mean the whole sermon has to be about that.
[00:12:53] But I just I want to make sure through this sermon like people know like, hey, you want more for your life? God does too. Get to know him. Yeah, that's good. I say it much better than that. So when and again, this is true. I think this is where the seeker sensitive movement sort of got it wrong. I think they got some things right. I think where they got it wrong was this idea of we're sort of compromising worship in a way. They wouldn't say it like that, but sure.
[00:13:22] We're making it more palatable. And I think the most attractive thing is when people are just full out worship of God. Now, listen, I could do without tambourines sometimes or. You know what I mean? Like maybe not every way is going to be exactly appealing to everybody. But I think being genuinely who you are as a church and worshiping God is is the number one reason people come back. Yeah, that's good.
[00:13:50] Number two, they feel at home. It's about physical and spiritual comfort and safety. They want to find their people. You know, it's funny. We talked that we just talked about this recently on a staff level, just how. People need playdates to make friends, just like kids. Yeah, people struggle to make friends. Adults struggle to make friends. How do we help them do that? How do we help them find their people?
[00:14:19] Not that we have to be some sort of concierge or like, you know, cruise director. But how do we just help them have a shot at meeting and connecting with other Christians in this community? Make spiritual friendships. They got to feel at home. They got to feel comfortable enough to do that. Number three, reasons guests return.
[00:14:48] Someone noticed them but didn't smother them. Yeah. You ever had that happen, Jesse? You ever go to church and just be? Yeah, I mean, I think it comes with really good intentions. Somebody wants to greet and welcome and whatever. But then it's like you met them, you greeted them, you welcomed them. Now maybe just walk away. Like, you know, you don't have to follow them out into the fellowship area. You don't need to refill their coffee for them. Like, you know, there's a read the room.
[00:15:17] I guess that's what it comes down to. And just be thoughtful about how would you want to be greeted. Do unto others as you'd have them do to you. So if you wouldn't want to be smothered, don't smother somebody else, even with good intention. There's a family that started worshiping with us. They have young kids. They started worshiping with us maybe seven, eight months ago. And they were telling me their story. And they said they went to this other nearby church that's kind of smaller. And they were the only, their kids were the only kids.
[00:15:48] And they immediately were asked to do a task in the worship service. Yeah. Their first day. Like, they were so overwhelmed and like, oh, yeah, we're going to include you. And they made them like, I'm not going to say it because I don't want to give away if anybody locals this thing, they would know what church this is. But dude, what are you doing? Yeah. It's hard because, you know, in that setting, they're probably so excited to see a young family and whatever.
[00:16:16] And so they made them get up front in front of everyone. Be wise. Be wise. Temper your enthusiasm and direct it in a wise way. How about that? That's right. Somebody I know says some churches that like the church that follows you home. And she was the one that said she had the experience where she went and visited a church and she gave them their information. And by the time she got home from church, there was cookies on her door from the church. And she was actually totally creeped out by it. But that's pretty next level.
[00:16:46] She's like, you know, that's that's nice and everything. But I just got home and you've already I don't like that. So anyway, take that for what it is. It's tough because I do think generationally there's different expectations. So there's a lot there's multiple factors here when we're talking about. Thank you. That's a nice way to save that, Jesse. Yes. Yeah. All right. Number four. Heart and excellence.
[00:17:15] Dan Ryland quote. Yeah. I mean, yes. Do well at what you do. You know, be authentic. Be yourself. But put put the effort in. That's going to reflect that there was a lot of thought, heart and passion that went into it. You know, we don't have the 10 person band up there doing crazy stuff, but you can be a really excellent version of yourself. Dan adds this to the end that he said there is no need to compete with the other churches near you. Yeah, that's it. The important thing is to be the very best that you can.
[00:17:45] There you go. And I love that because I also hear that from pastors a lot, too. It's like, well, we've got this big warehouse church down the street and they and all the young people go there and they do everything so well. I'm like, OK, but you don't have to be them. There'll be a reason that that people choose you. Yeah. Be you. Be the best version of you. Yeah. Yeah. So it's deeply reassuring because it's true. God wants all kinds of churches to look the way they do so that there's a home for everybody. Right.
[00:18:15] That's that's part of the deal. Yeah. Number five, the volunteers and congregation express authentic love, care and fun. I think that's true. Yeah. Do people like each other? Are people glad to see each other? I mean, guests are watching the way that you interact with each other. Is there a sense of warmth in the relationships or people just walking in and walking out and not engaging, you know, with each other? So I that tracks.
[00:18:42] I mean, think about when you walk into a room where there's a buzz in the conversation already and you're like, oh, this is a great. This is fun. This is going to be good. So, yes. And how do you create that if it doesn't exist? That's probably a whole nother conversation, Jason. But, you know, I tracks with me. I think it's it's just a comfort thing is. So I'll say this and I don't know if this is controversial anymore, but it was controversial when we did it for previously.
[00:19:10] Obviously, they didn't allow beverages in the sanctuary. And then we opened it up. We had coffee and said, you know, people could bring it in. And it was a big thing. Of course it was. My gosh, you're going to ruin the. Pretty soon you're going to be having a rave in the cathedral. You're going to be having a rave in the cathedral. It was just anyway. But what that did was it sort of created a warmth that wasn't there.
[00:19:38] And and conversations start and then laughter happens. And then it just sort of breaks the ice. It's to the point now where between two of our services are tightly packed together is only. Fifteen minutes between them, they people from the second service are gathering before the people are letting out and they're standing in a very echoey lobby that's, you know, and they're loud. They're like, hey, man, what's up?
[00:20:07] Oh, it's good to see you. So we had to start shutting the doors. Oh, to the sanctuary. So, yeah. So that it wouldn't interfere with the last song. That's awesome. But but I said, what a great what a great problem to have. What a great problem to have. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I think if you're you know, one of the things we've talked about is there's about 20 to 25 minutes between our services, depending on the week and the weeks where they're closer.
[00:20:33] There tend to be a lot more overlap and a lot more vibrancy in our gathering area than when the sermons may be shorter and there's a full half an hour or something. It's like all the first service people are gone. And so you're walking into kind of a cold space. And so there's some dynamics there to consider for sure. Yeah. Number six stories of life change are consistently communicated. This is an area I always feel like we need to keep getting better at. Yeah. Yeah. That people are telling have space to tell their stories.
[00:21:03] Doing it, you know, maybe by video, which I really like, but is a lot of work. Um, or maybe there are, you know, other creative ways to do that. But I think understanding that people in this room, their lives are changing because of Jesus Christ and they're and they're sharing that. Yeah. And, um, I don't know. I couldn't agree more. Number seven, I think this is a Dan thing.
[00:21:29] There are no X or obvious red flags over greeting, asking them to join a retreat, you know, their first day. Um, so just making sure it's not just too much too fast. You know, I think what are some red flags? I think for me, it's, um, some churches may, may be called to be this, but if I go to a church and it's like, everything is about politics.
[00:22:00] Mm-hmm. To me, that's a little bit of a red flag. That doesn't do it for me. Um, I don't know. Do you have things that just kind of. Yeah, I think it's an important question. And, you know, as you were introducing this list, I was like, here's 10 reasons people come back. But maybe what are the 10 reasons people don't come back? Yeah. And I think you're probably on the right track.
[00:22:21] I mean, if you're, if you pick up certain side of the aisle and that's kind of the posture of the church, then it's certainly going to alienate the other half of the room or whatever. Or might come. I think there's that. I think there's also when people feel confused about where to go or what to do. Yeah. Uh, maybe with their kids or they're not sure or, um, yeah, it's, it's that kind of, it's almost intangible stuff that's subtle, but it's kind of like, I don't know. It's something just didn't, it kind of felt off.
[00:22:50] I don't know how to describe it, but it just wasn't really for us or. Yeah. That people were really good at talking to each other, but nobody seemed really seemed. That's a big one for me too. Yeah. Where it feels like somebody else's family reunion every week. Yeah. So then where do I fit and where, you know, that kind of thing. So, so yeah, there's probably a list alongside Dan's of the things that cause people to not come back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, just a couple more. Uh, number eight, the next gen ministry is outstanding. That's a big reason people come back. For sure.
[00:23:20] Um, and, uh, Dan says this candidly guests will give an average service another shot, but if their child has a bad experience, they'll likely not return. Yeah. Yep. And, and what we've found too, teenagers, they bring their parents. So we have a lot of teenagers that got involved in the next gen ministry and their parents ended up coming and they weren't going to church before. And it's because of their kids. Yeah. Yeah. Good news for us, right? You can have a mediocre sermon and a great children's ministry. It's going to win the day. A hundred percent. Yeah.
[00:23:51] Yeah. Uh, number nine, they see you're making a difference. This has to do with local mission and opportunities to help. Yeah. And, um, that you don't underestimate that one. That's a really important one. Yeah. And I think it's a connection point because it's something maybe they could understand or a need they've seen. And it's like, oh, this, that's cool that you guys do that. I hear that a lot of times from people who are newer because they're looking for things to learn about us. And they're like, oh, I know about all of crest. That's a cool ministry that helps foster families. That's great. I'm glad you guys do that. So, yeah.
[00:24:20] Good connection points and, and a conversation point too, for them to feel like they can say something meaningful about what's going on. So good stuff. And then lastly, and this is where Jesse all get into trouble. Uh-oh. They felt it was worth their time. Hmm. I know. I know. I know. I know the theological. I feel, I feel the judgment in that statement.
[00:24:46] But listen, it's the truth. The reason they'll, they pick sports over church is because for whatever it is, they find that more compelling use of their time. What is it about church that we become so far down the list of priorities? And, and I know, I know, I know the answer is people should value worship over everything else.
[00:25:16] They should because they value that relationship with God. I know. And on the other hand, I don't think we're doing them any favors if we're literally putting them to sleep. I mean, there's, there's a tension there, right? Well, and I think are we, I think another way to think about it, are people coming and then being equipped to live out their faith or to grow or to be given a new tool to use in their spiritual disciplines? Or is there something practical that resonates with their real life they live all the time?
[00:25:46] And again, I'm not talking about like dumbing it down or anything. I mean, this is the kind of the deep and wide mentality, right? You can go really deep into things and also say, and if you're not a follower of Jesus yet, this is for you too. Like, this is really helpful to be the kind of person that as much as it depends on you, live at peace with everybody. That's just a good philosophy for life. You know, so you want to have things that people can, can come and go, you know what? I, I know that something is going to connect with my real life in worship.
[00:26:15] I mean, I have the opportunity to pray and talk with God about what's going on and, and to have the opportunity to be reassured of my forgiveness. I'm going to, I'm going to hear something practical in the message that goes deeply into God's word. And I'm going to be around people that care about me. It's, it's worth my time being there. It's going to have an impact on my life. So however you want to phrase that, I'm glad Dan includes that.
[00:26:38] In fact, he probably put it at number 10 because it was, it's like, uh, probably could be up there, you know, that third or fourth spot, you know, it's just, it's that important. Yeah. And, um, so I, I hope this list is helpful. You know, I think for us, and maybe we want to tackle this soon, if not next week, but I feel like the way our new member class,
[00:27:03] we do a really good job of connecting with people, engaging them along the way, and then coming to a new members class. And the way that we do new members, we do, it's two classes, two Sunday afternoons with lunch. And they have an opportunity to tell their faith journey. They get to know, you know, people around and it's, it's great. We love the way that we do new members. Here's where, here's our gap that we haven't figured out.
[00:27:30] How do we take them from new members to making sure that they're continuing to get engaged in the life of the church? Yeah. Um, and we do all the things we, we haven't fill out surveys of, you know, things are interested in and all that. And we, we have a good, like initial communication, but we don't have very good follow up after. So we literally lose track. Yeah. Of, it is a big challenge. And that's where it happens for us. We got to figure that out.
[00:27:57] Alan, I think there's, and I know we got to sign off here, but I think there's a little bit of a, of a values disconnect there too, because it's like, oh, once we get them across the membership line, then they're kind of on their own. It's not what we'd ever say or ever mean. No, that's kind of the operational value. And so how do we change our minds about a longer path of discipleship for our people?
[00:28:20] And what are the steps beyond membership or, you know, or coming to partnership in the eco landscape that I'm a part of, but it's like, how do we do it? And I think that is worth that conversation. So we should come back. Well, we'll come back to that one. Yeah. Uh, but anyway, thanks so much for listening, everyone. And if, and Hey, if you want to sit down and ask kind of as a leadership team, ask some of these questions that we've been asking over the last two weeks, well, really over the last, uh, you know, almost 10 years. That's right.
[00:28:48] Um, if you want to ask these things, we do have a free PDF kit for you reclaimed leader.com slash kit, and it's going to have four different, um, documents in their PDFs. One is four questions for your fall planning, just to help you think about what are you trying to do this fall? Uh, a church health diagnostic, just asking you some questions about how things are going, a church culture diagnostic, which isn't necessarily the same thing, although they are related.
[00:29:14] And then a guest follow-up kind of playbook, where we talk about some of the different things that we're following up with guests. So it's really just to get you and your leaders, give you some stuff to talk about. If you subscribe to our newsletter, you'll get these. You should have already gotten them automatically. And if not, simply sign up and I will make sure that they get to you. But again, just trying to help churches have these conversations right now, because I'm telling you right now is the time. People are ready. They're looking for churches.
[00:29:41] And I think just culturally, we've talked about this a lot, but people are open to Jesus Christ and who knows how long this window is going to stay open. So, uh, let's make the most of it. Uh, well, before we sign up, I don't know any, any last thoughts there, Jesse? I mean, no, other than just the best place to begin is to begin. And so wherever you are in your welcome process, follow-up simulation, all that, just begin from where you are and take some steps forward and you'll be better off because you did.
[00:30:07] So those urgent, important things sometimes get upside down and this is worth your time and focus. So Jason, thanks for the conversations these couple of weeks. And we're rooting for everybody. We're praying for you, Tower Hill. Be praying for Marine View. We want each other to succeed. And that's why we have all these conversations. Amen. As we say, ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together. Take care, everyone.