[00:00:00] Exactly right. And I think this is where a lot of churches and a lot of leaders, we get a little bit stuck because we think that maybe it's if I just hire another person, a different person, then that's going to change it. And oftentimes it's like you've hired at the same position over and over again. It keeps not working out. That seems like that's a culture problem, not just a technical problem that you can solve with the next new person.
[00:00:30] Welcome to episode 462. Ever throw a new program at a problem and watch it not work again? Maybe you're solving the wrong kind of problem. Today we unpack the difference between technical problems and adaptive problems and give you four simple tips to use right away to figure it out. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us. And some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. Jesse, it's good to be back. I feel like we haven't talked in a while.
[00:01:25] You know, as we record, you know, for all the listeners, we record. Sometimes we get way ahead. Sometimes we're right up to when we're about to launch. Today's one of those days is where we record today. It comes out tomorrow. There you go. But it does afford me this chance, Jesse. I don't know if this is good or bad news. It may be a sign of the end times, but the Las Vegas Raiders are now 3-0. Yeah, I saw that. They won three games all of last year. Right. So they've reached their potential? Is that what you're saying?
[00:01:55] Pretty much. Okay. They've hit their ceiling in the first two games, which is amazing. And so I'm very happy that my son, Jason, who has been rooting right there with me since he's a little kid, is finally seeing just a little hope in the organization. A little glimmer. The organization. Yeah. It's still a rebuild. Yeah. It's still a rebuild. But at least these early signs, I think, give us hope that it'll be a successful one. Nice, nice.
[00:02:24] Well, we just wrapped up the Seattle Mariners baseball season out here, and there were so many high hopes for this season and then one of the most abysmal performances by a good team all year long. But there was a guy that retired. He's the radio broadcaster for the Mariners, Rick Riz, 41 years on the job and kind of the voice of my childhood. And I had one of those super nostalgic moments yesterday.
[00:02:46] They turned on the last part of the game and they did this big tribute to him and just got tips of the hat from the cap from the baseball, you know, all the players and the fans. And it's just like as much as there's lots of problems that we're always trying to fix and solve. And we're going to be talking about some of that today. There's some good things, too, to celebrate. Absolutely. Like the Raiders winning some football games at long last and like acknowledging somebody's good work over a lifetime and their impact on us and stuff. So, you know, we're always chasing as leaders.
[00:03:15] We're chasing the problems and trying to fix things and work on stuff and make it better and taking unfair shots from people and lumps and bumps to prove it in life and leadership in the church. But there's also good things in life. And we got to stop and just enjoy the moment. So you enjoy your Raiders winning right now. You just lean into that amongst all the challenges. I will. For as long as it lasts, and this may be it, but as long as it lasts, I'm going to thoroughly enjoy it. I'm going to enjoy football for a while. There you go.
[00:03:44] But actually, oddly, I think this discussion of teams and success and failure and all that stuff is part of what we're talking about today. Because I think for, you know, let's say a sports team, you know, baseball, football, whatever, you know, pick a sport. But often as fans, you know, we believe that most things can be solved just by a technical solution. Hey, we need a coach who's going to teach the fundamentals better.
[00:04:13] We need X's and O's that are better. But often that's not the case. Yeah. Often it is it's a culture problem. It's it's a deeper problem that goes beyond technical ability. And that's just not the kind of thing that you can plug and play best practices. Yeah, that's right. But you have to rethink the whole organization. And that's definitely what I've seen sports teams do. I think the Raiders are one of them recently just really rethought what they were doing as an organization.
[00:04:42] And now all of a sudden you see some success happen because they have a better fit with their culture. And I think churches aren't that much different. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we're talking about those kinds of challenges. Sometimes what we're talking about is a technical fix is like I need a new quarterback and that will fix everything. Yeah. Well, if your offensive line can't block, it's not going to matter. Right. Or if the culture is we don't really care to put in a good effort and, you know, it's not going to matter. Right.
[00:05:09] So sometimes those technical challenges, you know, how does Heifetz talk about it? It's like a known problem with a known solution. And you bring in outside expertise to help you. And then everybody wins at the end. It's like replacing a dead battery on your car. You know what to do and the car was dead. So you plug a battery and you're off down the road. And sometimes we do have those kinds of challenges to fix in the church. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. We know we've got to fix this thing. We're going to do this known solution.
[00:05:35] Other times, as you said, it's more of a culture thing or we have an adaptive challenge where it's kind of more nebulous. There's lots of right ways or potentially lots of different ways to solve the problem. And we got to sort it out. Right. So, yeah. And the good news is we have awesome people to help us do that. But we're going to be the ones to be solving the problem. I think it is a Heifetz that says, who solves an adaptive problem? The people with the problem. Right. Exactly. The people closest to the problem. Yeah.
[00:06:05] And so you've got to go, what are the ideas? How are we going to work on this? So I love this conversation, Jason. Is it a fix it problem with a technical solution or is it a change us, an adaptive problem where we've got to go? We've got to learn some new ways in order to tackle this. Exactly right. And I think this is where a lot of churches and a lot of leaders, we get a little bit stuck because we think that maybe it's if I just hire another person, a different person, then that's going to change it. Yeah.
[00:06:33] And oftentimes it's like you've hired at the same position over and over again. And it keeps not working out that seems like that's a culture problem, not just a technical problem that you can solve with the next new person. Yeah. And, you know, Heifetz, I mean, that was Heifetz's distinction, right? Technical problems can be solved with existing best practices. Sure.
[00:06:54] Skills and adaptive challenges often are what you need are, you know, big cultural changes, shifts in values and expectations and attitudes. Yeah. Behavior that can't be solved by current knowledge alone. Yeah. New skills, new learning, new ways. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you're going to mention this, so I don't want to walk on it, but Bolsinger's book, Canoeing the Mountains, I mean, are we going to talk about that in a little bit? Yeah.
[00:07:19] Actually, I was just going to touch on it because I think most people know that book, but if you don't, let's just say Canoeing the Mountains is such a great, great resource for you and your church leaders because you can really get your heads around the difference between technical and adaptive change. Yeah. And how that lands in your church. It's so, so important. That's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, so for example, technical examples are the soundboard keeps cutting out. That's right. The check-in kiosk is confusing.
[00:07:47] You can fix those with some better practices. But the adaptive issues are like guests aren't returning. Volunteers are burning out. The church feels stuck between two different eras. That's right. These are adaptive problems that require different solutions. They sure do. Yeah. And here's the problem, Jesse, and I wish I could say I'm immune to this. I'm not.
[00:08:10] But for most of us in churches, it's like we're too defensive to admit that there's a culture problem. Mm-hmm. And so we'd rather jump to technical solutions because that feels like, well, that's not our fault. But that's something they give it. It's not a problem with the culture, which indirectly or directly feels like a problem of me. Totally. Yeah. We, yeah, because it kind of calls us to the carpet a little bit about that.
[00:08:39] You know, the culture that exists is what we've created or allowed or whatever. Those kinds of things. And that feels personal. It kind of stings. And, but the problem is, and our friend Caitlin would say that there's no magic bullet. Like a technical fix is not going to change a culture issue. It might be part of your, your change strategy might change some technical things in order to go in a new direction. But there's no one thing that's going to fix it. If we just find that one good curriculum, it's going to fix our, our outreach to young families. Right.
[00:09:07] It's no, there's, there's a more work underneath that has to get done to move us in that direction. And I'm sure you've experienced this, Jesse, but like when I've, when I'll go to a church, they'll call me in to help them because they say, you know, this thing isn't working. They're, they only are, they almost only want technical solutions. They don't want to have to do the work to really think of an adaptive cultural change. Yeah. Cause that's very scary.
[00:09:36] Cause they don't want to lose what they love. Yeah. And so, and in their heads and they'll be very defensive. So for example, um, I was called to a church and they wanted me to sort of do a audit of their worship service. Just kind of see like, why, why aren't we, we don't seem to be connecting with younger families. What's going on. Um, but also behind that is a problem. If we just fix our worship and that will fix our relationship with young families. Right. That's only, that's only part of it. That's, that's not going to be the whole thing.
[00:10:04] You need a whole overhaul of your church and think about your priorities and, and what are the needs and rethink how you're spending your money and everything else. Um, but they'll get really defensive when I start bringing that stuff up. They're like, no, no, no. Do we just need, you know, what kind of music should we play? Yeah. But just give us those answers. I'm like, well, those answers aren't going to get you where you want to go. So today we're talking a bit how, and this is the trickiest part.
[00:10:30] How can you tell if it's a technical or an adaptive problem? That is the question, Jason. We got to get that one figured out. Yeah. And, and you mentioned something right there already. I'm sure we'll get into this as we're talking, but most people resist change, not because of the change itself, but because of the sense of loss that's involved with the change. Like they're like, they'll change a little bit or like a little piece. But in some ways, when we're doing an adaptive shift, it's like, we're saying what we've been doing isn't the right thing.
[00:11:00] And we got to leave that behind. And it probably feels known and comfortable. And it's maybe why we started coming to the church because we did, we do things this way. And now we're saying, no, we need to shift to a whole new way or, or we need to change our culture and our mindset. And that is going to come with some loss. And so people are like, pump the brakes. So it's not the change they resist. They like the idea of the change, but it's, it's the process of getting there and losing some things. And then also just the discomfort and uncertainty that comes with it.
[00:11:28] So I think this is a spot on conversation. So how do we tell the difference between fix it and change those problems? How are you? So four tips on how to do this. Number one is you start with some kind of diagnostic question, which, which might go something like this before you just start jumping to fix something. Ask, and it's something you ask in your leadership room. Do we already know how to solve this?
[00:11:55] Or do we need to become a different kind of church team or leader in order to solve it? Is this something we already know how to do? Mm hmm. If the honest answer is the second one, there's no program you're going to put in there. It's going to fix it. Mm hmm. I think that's a nice place to start. It's not an easy place to start, but it's a good place to start. Like, do we already know how to fix this? No. Okay. So let's not assume we can just jump in and fix it. Mm hmm. And I think part of it, you know, it's funny. It almost.
[00:12:25] The people in the room, it's almost like they'll have breathe a sigh of relief. Once they recognize what kind of problem it is. Because, okay, well now we can start focusing on the solution in the right way. Right. And I think once you start bringing clarity, even if it's uncomfortable clarity, it eases the burden of it, if that makes sense. Mm hmm.
[00:12:53] Being able to talk about it, to name it. And one of the things that I say, it doesn't make me very popular, but one, one thing that I say is when people get defensive around it. Is I say, if what you're doing is currently the answer, it would have worked by now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, because, yeah.
[00:13:17] Because people will say, like in worship, like young people aren't coming or over the last five years, we've lost 30% of worshipers. And I'll say, well, you know, what's going on in your worship service? Well, it's not that it's just, you know, we're aging out and the numbers and everything. Yeah. Yeah. But why aren't more people coming in? Well, it's not that if we could just get more people to learn about our worship service, then we'd refill it. Mm hmm. I'm like, but if what you were doing already is the answer, it would have worked by now. Yeah.
[00:13:46] So, so what's missing? And I know nobody likes to hear that, but I think that's really important that we're able to name that. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Leaders defining reality and being honest and, and, and going, you know what, we, what we've been working on and what we've been trying isn't working. And, uh, so that's an important, just important realization or recognition because now you can actually work on the problem in the right way, as you said.
[00:14:11] So if you're not, if you're just going to be spinning your wheels and plugging something in, plugging something in, plugging something in, um, it's not going to get you there in the end for sure. Which by the way, I've, I've guilty. Yeah. This is us. Yeah. I'm preaching to ourselves right now. This is a Jason and Jesse need to hear this episode. So that's right. I've done this too many times. That's right. Um, also here's another, this is like a little sub point of this, um, being honest about what kind of problem that we're facing.
[00:14:40] I think also before jumping to a fix it solution, I think another way to frame it is say is, is there something wrong with the formula? You know, when you're solving a problem, there's a formula you apply to get the solution. Well, am I using the right formula? And I think, I just want to give a practical example here. So we, and I, we've talked about this over the last couple of weeks.
[00:15:06] It, you know, we have some open staff positions and trying to figure out what's the best way to fill them in our music director position. We actually, uh, kind of rewrote the position and we're able to make a hire, which is super exciting. And, uh, our new director is going to start in January. And, but the other piece was our director of operations.
[00:15:27] I think we talked a little bit about this, but it was a big job where I definitely am feeling the pressure of that position being empty because all the operation stuff's coming to me. Sure. And I don't, I don't know about HR. You know what I mean? Like I, there's a lot of stuff. Mm-hmm . And, um, and I had two, two guys, the same within days of each other, come up to me and say, Hey, I know you need help with operations.
[00:15:53] You know, I'm currently working, but I'm happy to help as a volunteer, both of them at the same, almost at the same time. And, uh, I'm like, all right, let's have a meeting, all three of us. And we sat down and we talked about everything, both guys, you know, I think they're kind of getting close to early retirement. Not sure what that's going to look like for them, but for the foreseeable future, they both said, we just as volunteers will co-direct the operations position together. Nice work.
[00:16:23] And they do this for a living. And so they're like this stuff, you know, the guys are doing it in their sleep. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not hard for them. Yeah. And so they're currently divvying up the job, figuring it out and they're going to do it as volunteers. Now I never would have even allowed that possibility. Had I not asked myself the question, do we need to change the formula to the solution? Do we need to be open to whatever God has? Because when they first came to me, I'm like, well, I wonder how this is going to work. Cause we're going to hire somebody in that position.
[00:16:53] And I had to take a step back. I literally did this physically. I'm sitting at my computer, which is actually right here in my office, just like this. And I kind of went like this and I just, I just asked myself, okay, God, am I just assuming that I know what the next step is or trying to be a little more open-minded to what this position is going to look like? That's right. Yeah. And I think maybe a greener version of myself wouldn't have done that.
[00:17:22] I think I would have just said, okay, well, I appreciate it. Maybe we'll make an operations team and you can help out at, you know, at monthly meetings rather than, yeah, go for it. So I think before jumping to a solution, do we have the right formula? Is another way of tackling, is this an adaptive or technical solution? No, I think that's wise. And, and being open to creative solutions is part of an adaptive approach, right?
[00:17:45] Like novel solutions that we haven't thought of before because it's a new problem or, you know, we're, we're going to say, Hey, there's, there's a plug and play version of this, but this, this new thing might be the mind shifting that I need to do in order to come up or, or, or kind of realize a solution that's right there in front of us. So there's kind of an open handedness, I think, in an adaptive challenge where we're like, yeah, we need to think of maybe new or creative ways to solve the problems that we used to solve this way. But maybe there's some alternatives that we haven't thought of yet.
[00:18:15] And as scary as adaptive change is, I don't know if you've noticed this, Jesse. I've noticed that every time we tackle it as a church, we end up seeing blessing every time. Yeah. Yeah. And so we always bring back Isaiah 43, 19, see, I'm doing a new thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Well, yeah, I think in a spot on because probably where it's coming out of Jason is a really well informed understanding of the problem.
[00:18:44] Cause you've asked a lot of questions about it. You've thought about it. You're wrestling with it. And so for me, anytime we've made an adaptive change that has worked well, it's because we did a lot of question asking, wrestling and being open to ideas. And it's, you know, it's, so there's something about just that, like you did, you just push yourself back from the desk for a minute. But if we do that in relationship to a lot of the challenges we face in the church, we go, we go back and go, what are the possibilities that haven't, we haven't thought of yet?
[00:19:13] And I know we're going to get into some brainstorming stuff next time, but I love it. Good open-ended questions about the problem help us a ton. Yeah. And, and I will say, you know, before we get to our next tip and don't worry, listeners, we'll go a little faster, but, but I, I feel like there's a lot to say about this one is I think we need to be honest and candid about the pressure to do something fast. Yes. When there's a problem. Yeah.
[00:19:40] Um, so I think there's way more pressure to jump to technical solutions because I feel like we feel the pressure because I definitely, I don't want this problem to linger longer than it needs to. And other people are pressuring. When are we going to solve this? When are we going to solve this? You know? Yeah. And I think, I just think it's a real pressure. Yeah. Well, and there's the sweet spot, right? Cause if we sit back and don't do anything ever, like that's, that's not good either. Yeah.
[00:20:08] But there's also, if you had rushed and created the job description and put it out there and these guys came to you after you've already started your search process, it's like, well, this is the path we've already chosen. So I think there is something wise about pumping the brakes for a minute and just kind of looking around. And I find sometimes what felt really urgent one day will feel a little less urgent the next day. And by the third day, it might've already presented a solution that we hadn't thought of, or it might've resolved. So it's just like, give it a little breathing room.
[00:20:37] It's just like, you know, we don't have to rush and be in that much control or show that we're on top of things. Like sometimes just, just let it, let it stew a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And also just remember that if you fall into the trap of jumping into technical solutions, people are going to end up more frustrated, not less because it's not really going to solve the problem. Well, the thing about if you hire the wrong person, just cause we really have to have that. And now you gotta, you gotta undo that on top of finding somebody now, right?
[00:21:06] It's just so anyway, I'm with you is what the point is there. So we can, we can keep moving. All right. All right. So number two is just name it out loud. So I think in your next leadership meeting, I think you could literally write on a whiteboard, technical and adaptive and sort your current problem list under each. Yeah. And I feel like half the tension in the room is dissipated because you'd actually name it and you get some clarity around that.
[00:21:33] Yeah. Yeah. And kind of revisiting that definition of what we mean by technical versus adaptive. And then, you know, kind of coaching your team around what that, yeah, I think that might actually be a technical fix that we can find for that. Or, you know, yeah, we're going to have to change as a team in the way we do things in order to address this. And so for me, I, yeah, I think that's a really good, good idea. Just get clarity around what you're doing and then people go, oh, that's the problem we're trying to solve. Now I understand. So we're trying to solve the same category of issue or challenge.
[00:22:03] Yeah. And then, and then kind of back then what do you do with that list? So I think again, back to the Heifetz, you know, what he talks about is giving the work back to the people closest to the problem. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I honestly, I shouldn't be the one coming up with solutions for our next gen team. Yeah. Although I often have many. You have lots of suggestions. And I, they're almost always not the right solutions because I'm operating off of when I was a youth pastor, you know, years ago.
[00:22:30] You know, what's funny is as much as we say, you know, don't try to apply a technical fix to an adaptive challenge. I kind of have the opposite problem in my leadership. If you're like a dreamer kind of person, I try to take just a technical problem with a clear fix and turn it into an adaptive problem. Yeah. And so I think it kind of works both ways. Right. So I'm like, what, what if, and what if we try and people are like, let's just get this new device or this, whatever. I'm like, all right, that's probably a better idea. Let's just fix it.
[00:22:59] So, but being, having it written down, now you got clarity. What kind of problem are we solving here? And, and, and so whichever way you kind of naturally tilt in your leadership, if you love adaptive challenges and you love to ask questions and dream, but it's a technical problem with an easy fix, you just got to like get a new website vendor and let them work on your website. Like you don't have to reinvent everything just, just because. So don't turn technical problems into adaptive ones. That is, that is a great caveat.
[00:23:29] That's really important. Well, it's a Jesse caveat because I do that to our team all the time. And they're just like, no, we, we just need to get a new whatever, or we need like, it's, you know, so stop making it into a something. We just need a trash can. That's all. That's right. Um, but also like, again, back to sort of next gen, uh, our next gen team is, I think it's the one area of the church where we hit this the most. And that is needing volunteers and lack of volunteers.
[00:23:55] Cause we need about 30 volunteers a week in our next gen to pull off Sunday school. It's a lot. And, and I would say maybe 15 of them are regulars. They sign up early there, you know, they're, you can count on them, but every week because I live with one of the people who's doing the scheduling. Um, it's down to the wire. It's Saturday and we still need somebody for pre-K. We still need, you know, it's just so, but, but here's where I have had to learn is I'm
[00:24:25] always trying to jump in and fix what do I got to do? Yeah. Do I got to, you know, call out to the congregation and tell them, you know, sign up and everything. I'm like, no, please don't do that because we don't, don't get the right people. And yes. So I just need to let them come up with the solution and not do, try to do it for them. Right. Well, and it's a challenge. Of course, you're married to the person helping do it. Right. So then this, her stress is your stress. And yeah. And that, that there's no other whole piece of this, of adaptive leadership where we have
[00:24:52] what are called reactive behaviors under stress, things we go to. And probably you're probably a classic over-functioner, right? Like you're going to try to solve the problem for that person. And just instead of going, Hey, you know, I know it's stressful. There's a little anxiety in the room, but it's going to be okay. And so we kind of, you know, there's some things that we go to, or we maybe give decisions away because it's so stressful. We're like, I just, I kind of freeze up or something, but yeah, that's our heart. So give the work to the people and really let them do it.
[00:25:20] You know, think about act six, like the disciples set the framework, the apostles for, Hey, give it to seven men. They're going to lead. They've got to be wise and full of the spirit. And they're going to take over the responsibility of caring for the needs of the community. But you pick them. Yeah. You pick them. Like, so we've set the frame with our vision, mission, and values. And now we say to our teams, you decide the curriculum or you decide how you want to recruit your volunteers and do all that and trust them to get it done. But man, that can be hard sometimes. It can.
[00:25:48] And I think, but this leads to the third tip and that is the hand back. So the next time you're tempted to solve something yourself, I'm going to quote the great Jesse Skiffington. Yes. From, from past episodes, we've talked about this, but one thing that you've, you've said before is that's a great question. What do you think? Yes. Right. That. Yeah. Yeah. Try to get, to hand it back to those solving the problem. You know, how are we going to fix this? That's a great question. What do you think? Yeah.
[00:26:16] Um, I think that move helps to make sure that you are not over functioning, but also it helps to kind of spark that, that brainstorming that needs to happen with the people closest to the problem. Totally. Yeah. And I kind of have a working agreement with my team here is if you need me as a conversation partner, that's how I'm going to treat that conversation. Like, that's a great question. What do you think? What are ideas that you've thought of? And I'll help talk through it.
[00:26:42] Like, but if they really need my opinion and want an idea from me, then I'm like, so, but I'm happy to give you my two cents too, if that is helpful. So like, but yeah, we want to turn it back around because probably they walked into our office. They've already spent a lot more time thinking about this than we have. And we're going to be kind of shooting in the dark a little bit on some of the questions or we might have things that used to work that maybe don't anymore. So it's, yeah, trying to really just pass that baton back and say, we can talk about
[00:27:10] it together, but you're the one who has the best handle on the problem and you understand it the best. And so you're really in the best position to have some ideas about how to solve it. So anyway, yeah, that's, but yes, I have it on my wall over here. And I, I don't remember where I got it from, probably from one of our drive conferences or somewhere, somewhere along the line. I don't know, but. It's, it's good. It's good. And also just a reminder to our listeners, we haven't talked about this in a while, but we do have that it's, we got a free sort of kit online with a bunch of kind of diagnostic
[00:27:40] questions that, uh, that can help you as you're thinking through this stuff this fall. So it's reclaimleader.com slash kit. And, um, again, it's free. If you're a subscriber, you're going to, you already have gotten that, uh, automatically. If you didn't get it, if you subscribed after we sent it out, just send me an email. I'll, I'll make sure that it gets to you. Um, all right. Tip number, tip number four is, and this actually has served us well in a lot of ways. Protect the DNA, change the rest.
[00:28:09] So I think it's having an agreement with your leadership and with your congregation, what's on the table for change and what's not on the table for change. Yeah. And it's an adaptive principle, right? That new solution should be a healthy expression of who you already are. You're not just copying another church, determine what should never change, be willing to change everything else. And so it, we, this is down to our DNA. We got to the point where like in our new member classes, we just had a new member class
[00:28:38] on Sunday and, uh, we split it up. So, uh, pastor Chris does the first session. It's like Christianity one-on-one. And then I do the second session. It's about mission and vision of tower Hill. And we talk about this. We say, uh, you know, the truth of the gospel, we never compromise. It never changes, but the way we communicate, it's changing as fast as culture. It's how do we do this generationally?
[00:29:03] And, um, so what we say, we're not changing the gospel. We're not watering it down. We're not trying to make it more palatable, but we're trying to be more effective in how we convey it. And that has a ripple effect in the organization. This is who we are. This is how we do things in our youth ministry. We believe in, you know, highly relational it both on their weeknights and Sunday mornings. We have a large group and small group components. That's part of our DNA.
[00:29:31] It's what we believe, um, is the best way of building relationships and getting kids to go deeper and have fun at the same time. Sure. Uh, the way we do worships a certain way, you know what I mean? That's our DNA. We don't change that. What are all the other things that we're willing to change? And I think when you're able to do it with your congregation, this is a, this is a Bob Weitzel thing that he taught me a long time ago is, is, is he actually thinks you should come up with a formal statement, a change document to say, this is the boundaries of what we're going to change.
[00:30:00] We're not touching these things so that folks in your congregation can sort of take a breath. Right. Okay. They said they're not changing those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think even, um, uh, yeah, I like that idea of change boundaries and just kind of agreeing about what's up for negotiation and what's not. Uh, it's sometimes I'll use the phrase when somebody maybe has some vision or mission drift that they're kind of wanting to introduce. I'll just say, you know, we consider that a pretty settled question here. And so these are the questions that are on the table for discussion.
[00:30:29] And that's one that we've already kind of, we've already decided where we, where we are with that. So it's just kind of being clear even about what's up for negotiation and change and what's the North star that we're going to hold onto and not, not change. And, you know, even think back to that act six example. I mean, they, they said, we are going to be true to the ministry of the word where we need to preach the gospel and be witnesses. And so that was their North star and everything else that they did to organize the community had to have that anchor point, but everything else. Yeah.
[00:30:59] Let's reorganize how we do the distribution of food and we'll figure it out. Um, and let's do it together. But it's like that North star gives you, uh, an ability to know, you know, what are the things that, that are worth looking at for change versus going, you know what, that's just the core of us. And we're not, that we're not meddling with that. Yeah. Um, and remember people, it's not that they're resisting the change, they're resisting loss. We, you know, like we talked about. Yeah. Leading.
[00:31:27] I think we need to reframe how do we lead through adaptive change a little bit. I think it's equal parts strategy skill and pastoral care skill. It is. Yeah. Leading people through adaptive change and just being ready for that. Yeah. That a lot of it's about emotions that have nothing to do with the strategy. Totally. And helping people understand that ahead of time, as we go through this, there is going to be some things that are going to be hard or emotional or uncomfortable. And that's to be expected.
[00:31:54] So as that comes up in you, let's just talk about it and be like, yeah, it's really hard. Name what they might be feeling. It's hard to let go of that. I really liked that. That was my idea. Now we have to let it go. And that's, that's painful. So I think part of the strategy around adaptive change can even be, I don't know, I don't want to get too hokey about it, but helping some people, some people grieve the loss of what they helped start that we used to do because it was a good strategy at the time. And now we got to do something else. So you kind of stop and acknowledge it and say, thank you for it. And look how God worked through that.
[00:32:24] And I can't wait to see what God's going to do next in this new thing that we're trying. So it's just being wise in your pastoral leadership, I think. And that's something that you and I are still figuring out. But now that 17 years in, I think maybe we've got our heads around a little better than maybe we did when we came in, you know, firing off on change in the early days. It is interesting though, you know, some of those losses that people have are things that you're always trying to kind of replace those losses with something at least as good or better.
[00:32:53] And then sometimes they're just losses because you did have to make a change that, and I'll give you an example. So even though it's been, let's see, 11 years, no, 10 years since, nope, 11 years that we moved from the fellowship hall to the sanctuary with our contemporary worship. Every once in a while, I'll still hear, you know what was great? When the service, it's all from the OGers. Sure.
[00:33:23] When the service was in fellowship hall, we would all stay after and stack the chairs. And, and they would talk. Yeah. As they, and, and they all felt like they were helping. Yeah. They were stacking the chairs at the end to clear the fellowship hall. Yeah. And we were never able to recreate that. And, and people still sort of miss it. And we tried a bunch of different things. This hasn't worked. And it was a bummer because that was cool, but we never would have reached the, the people
[00:33:52] we would have reached had we stayed there. And I think there's a really important thing here too. When someone does that or brings that kind of stuff up, it doesn't mean you need to defend the decision about why you made the change. Yeah. Yeah. That's not the time for that. You're like, yeah, that was good. And I miss that sometimes too. And I love what we're doing now, but man, that was unique and special. And like, you don't have to like, but the reason we did it is because blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah. Just let people feel what they feel about stuff. Yeah. And, and, you know, just agree. Like, oh yeah, you know, that was cool. That was good.
[00:34:22] I loved watching you guys all stack the chairs. Yeah. And, and that was a big part of the success of what, what it's been. Community, camaraderie. We're all in it together. Yeah. So quick recap of the four tips. Yeah. Go back to the fellowship hall, Jason. Go back to the fellowship hall. That's what I hear you saying. Start with a question. Do we already know how to solve it? Or do we need to become a different kind of church or team or leaders to solve it? Two, name it. Put a list. Technical, adaptive, maybe name it.
[00:34:50] Try to name what the current challenges are and what kind of solutions they might require and agree. Yeah. Then hand it back to those closest to the problem. You know, obviously being willing to help them, but just trying to make sure that the people closest to the problem have, have a really significant input. They know it best. Don't try to get in their way. Yeah. Yeah. And then protect the DNA of your culture, but be willing to change the rest and maybe even agree. This is what we, this is what's on the table and this isn't.
[00:35:18] And I think apply, there's many other things, but I think applying this helps you get at the right size or the right kind of solution to the right problem. Yeah. Yeah. I think you said something really important in this episode. I think the longer I've, you know, led in the, in the church, the more I, I understand the relational wisdom that it takes to do this well. Yeah. You know, it's pastoral, but it's also very much about the people involved and how do we help them move towards change?
[00:35:45] So we can do, we can have all the right information about adaptive change and adaptive change leadership. But if we're not able to wisely apply that in a real situation with real people, then we're not going to get a lot of traction. So this is just something you got to kind of get down deep in you and then think about who, what kind of leader do I need to become? Or what do I need to learn? Or, you know, where are my blind spots when it comes to leading change well? And so I love these four, Jason. This is so helpful.
[00:36:15] It's so important. And this is the kind of stuff that really will just be dramatically positive in the life of the church. If you can figure out to distinguish between these two types of problems. So excellent topic. Love it. Good stuff. Awesome. So everyone, thank you so much for listening again. If you ever want to reach out to us, Jason or Jesse at reclaimleader.com. And we are rooting for you, praying for you.
[00:36:40] I mean, I think this is such an exciting but often overwhelming time to be pastors. And if you find that this episode or other episodes help encourage your colleagues, just send it to them. We love to get the word out about the podcast now, 462 episodes later. We're still hoping people will find us. But thank you. You know, leave us reviews, kind of all the things. But we just, our goal is to help be a resource for you.
[00:37:08] And, you know, one thing we always come back to, our tagline, ministry is hard. It's so much better when we do it together. We really believe that. And hope that you have a blessed week. And maybe this is the week that you start tackling some of these problems or challenges in a way that's going to give you the right solution. So anything before we sign off here? No, spot on, Jason. Grateful to be in with you. All right, everyone. We'll catch you next week. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. Thank you.