[00:00:00] In the churches I serve, that's usually where my friends are. And the issue is, of course, once they leave the church and the friendship ends, it leaves me wondering, were we really friends? Or were we friendly or maybe not full friends? I was just his or her sort of pastor friend, and they were always seeing me as sort of like a role.
[00:00:30] Welcome to episode 464. A lot of pastors, myself included, would say that most of their friendships are with people from the congregation. And it could be really, really good. Until it isn't. After a recent falling out, I'm asking a question. Can pastors really have friends in the congregation? That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that worked for us. And some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. It's so great to have you with us.
[00:01:24] A special welcome to everybody who's been joining us, and you're new over the last few episodes. Welcome. Reach out to us anytime, Jason or Jesse at ReclaimLeader.com. And for everyone else who's been with us for a while, welcome back. We're glad to have you. And before we jump into today's conversation, Jesse, I had the wonderful experience of cleaning up our yard this morning. And because we had that nor'easter come through.
[00:01:54] Yeah, that was a crazy storm. It was a mess. And it took me three hours. But crank through. And I got to tell you, there was something really therapeutic that I needed. I needed that today. I needed to have a mess, clean it up, and physically see that it was better. Oh, tangible things can go a long way, Jason. I think that's a reason why as pastors sometimes, or as leaders in general, we're drawn to creative things like woodworking or straightening up something.
[00:02:22] Because it is like, we live in a world where there's lots of messes, and very seldom is there like full resolution, right? It's just like, so I love that. I'm glad that you got to do a little bit of that yard cleaning therapy today. That's good. Yeah, I needed it. And this is related to our topic today. And, you know, I'm going to be a little bit vulnerable in this episode, but also I'm not going to share too much. This is something pretty new that just happened relationally for me.
[00:02:51] It's not the first time it's happened. Probably won't be the last. And that is where somebody who I would consider a very close friend has left the church. And, you know, all sorts of questions always come up in that process. But, you know, after this kind of most recent episode, I'm back to asking this question. Because I know pastors, whenever you have something negative happen, or you feel like you lost a friend or something, the question always comes up.
[00:03:19] Can we really have friends in the congregation? Yeah. Is that possible? I think it is. I think it is. We'll get there. But I think first we need to start with what's at stake here and why am I so surprised? Why am I so hurt every time that this happens? I know you never struggle with that, Jesse.
[00:03:40] Yeah, I think there's, it's a real kind of a working challenge for us because we want to be in a highly relational ministry environment where we're close with people. We show vulnerability. We do the kinds of things that we expect of others. And I think that opens us up as leaders in the church to some of those bumps and bruises. And, you know, we talked about way at the beginning, if we lead well in the church, we're going to have the scars to prove it.
[00:04:05] I think this is one of those places that leaves a mark on us when someone we thought we were friends with or kind of had built a relationship with and maybe a deeper way where we felt like there was some trust there. And, and then the rugs pulled out from under us or it wasn't what we thought, or maybe it was more transactional than we understood. And there's expectations that we found we didn't meet or something. And then you're kind of left with a little bit of the heartache over that or, or just the sting of it.
[00:04:35] And I think it adds up and leaves a mark. And probably if, if you're like me and all of you listening, when those things happen, you're, you're become more and more reluctant to risk that kind of vulnerability. And so what's a healthy approach to all this? And I think it's natural for us. I can think of a handful of times here where that's happened. And it makes me just want to go fine. I will just do my job and all of you can stay over there or whatever, but I don't want to live that way either.
[00:05:03] Cause where's the meaning in that? So, yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and part of it too, is it's kind of maybe how we're wired as pastors. I know for me, I'm wired in such a way that I had, I had to build up some defense mechanisms when I was young growing up. And my superpower is I can move on from anything.
[00:05:26] I, there's a, there's a negative side to that and that, you know, I've had so many great friends in my life, different stages of my life and, and moved around a lot, but I'm not good at maintaining those friendships. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I'm always sort of at the mercy of being friends with whoever's around me and whoever's in the congregation. And, and I, I, you know, I don't know why I'm terrible at maintaining it. And that's why our friendship. There's some social psychologist right now.
[00:05:56] And it's like, Oh, Jason, I've got, I got you diagnosed, man. But I do, I do very much value ours because I don't have, I don't have many of these people who really know me who aren't a part of the church. That's, that's part of the problem is that, you know, I, in the churches I serve, that's usually where my friends are. Yeah.
[00:06:17] And the issue is, is of course, once they leave the church and the friendship ends, it leaves me wondering, like, were we really friends? Mm-hmm. Or were we friendly or maybe not full friends? I was just his or her sort of pastor friend and they were always seeing me as sort of like a role. Yeah. Rather than just a friendship.
[00:06:46] Because in my head, when I'm talking to people, I'm me. I often forget the office. Yeah. Yeah. And realize, yeah. And I think that's part of your relational nature too, you know? And I think a lot of us as pastors probably, maybe there's some really people out there are like, no, I've kept all my friendships across all the years. But I think there are a lot of pastors that are a lot like you and me, Jason, where like we had to start a podcast and record every week to stay friends.
[00:07:13] Like, I mean, I would always care about you and love you. But if we weren't doing this every week, I have no doubt we would have kind of gone our own paths because just the nature of how we function, we kind of deal with what's in front of us. And so sometimes to build good friendships, you got to really do it on purpose. It has to be intentional beyond the church. But it also makes sense that people would kind of look to us in a certain kind of way, even in their friendship, I think, with us.
[00:07:40] And maybe they have some good intentions behind that to begin with. And those things can shift over time. I can point to a few instances here at MarineV where somebody said, I want to be the person that you can count on, you know, and be yourself around. And you don't have to be the pastor guy. You can just be yourself. I'm sure you've had that same conversation with someone over the years. I've had that several times.
[00:08:04] And I think people really mean that or want to be to have that be a real thing. But I think it's also important somehow to acknowledge that there is something transactional here, no matter what. And to be healthy in our understanding of that difference, I think. But it is tricky. It's hard to do that well. I can think of a couple of positive examples of that in my life where people have so far really lived that out.
[00:08:34] And yet there's that little party that's like, when is the other shoe going to drop or what might happen? For sure. And we're not alone, Jesse. You know, all the research says sort of the same thing. So Hartford Institute in 2024, half of clergy say they are at least often lonely, including 37% who are frequently lonely. Lifeway also reported 28% directly say loneliness or lack of friendships is one of their most significant challenges.
[00:09:02] Barna, 65% of pastors reported feeling lonely or isolated at times, up from 42% in 2015. Those who felt they were well supported by people close to them fell from 68% to 49%. Wow. You know, some of these studies are a little older, so I'm not sure what it is now. But, you know, I know Lifeway had an older study said nearly 7 in 10 pastors say it's vital for them to invest in friendships and fellowship with others because it's a struggle.
[00:09:34] There's a study. There's a study. There's a study. 2017 Journal of Psychology and Theology found 30% of church leaders have low numbers of close friends. It kind of goes on and on. And yet, to counter that, friendships are clearly still happening and clearly can help our vitality. So Lifeway 2025, rural churches today study found that 92% of rural pastors invest in meaningful friendships with people in their pews.
[00:10:04] Most also do so with other pastors, 88%. Unbelievers in town, 83%. And believers at other churches, 82%. So congregational friendships clearly happen. And they look more common than the never do it advice might tell us. But I think what's the right framework so that we can cultivate friendships for the same time, not have unrealistic expectations of our friendships as pastors, I think is really the question.
[00:10:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know where we want to go from here with the conversation because there's a—I think it's a complicated thing to kind of get at. But it's also, you know, as I'm thinking about that, there are a lot of people I really trust in my congregation who I think do have my back and care about me as a person.
[00:10:55] And there's also always a little bit of a separation in kind of the depth of our relational connectedness. And so I think there's a friendliness that really is important, but not that deep friendship kind of thing that I think we're meaning here where you're sharing life with someone. This is the person you hang out with outside of just the day-to-day life of the church. It's not somebody you bump into and have a good rapport with at church.
[00:11:25] It's like, no, let's go fishing together. It's that person that you kind of build into your life beyond that. And I think that's where that challenge piece comes in. Are you going to share life with someone beyond just sort of the friendliness that comes, hopefully, in our churches? Right. And so I'm going to read for you an excerpt from Kerry Newhoff's blog post. He talked about this a while back, and I think it's a good way to sort of open up the conversation.
[00:11:48] So he says—it was an undated article about true friendships amongst pastors and from folks in their congregations. He said this, True friendships don't depend on your leadership. They depend on the relationship. For him, that's the thing that brings clarity. If the friendship is dependent upon your leadership, it's not a—I don't want to say real.
[00:12:14] It's not a full sort of friendship as you are envisioning it. He said as long as you're the leader, you've got a few variables in the friendship that make it hard to discern whether this is truly a friendship that will survive your leadership. Mm-hmm. You know the stereotype of the business leader who retires and is later shocked to discover his phone never rings and everyone he used to hang out with isn't interested in him anymore. Mm-hmm. People build relationships with you for reasons other than just pure friendship. Yeah.
[00:12:45] That—I think that's a really clarifying way of putting it. Mm-hmm. Why are people interested in having friendships with us? And if they're connected with the church, it has to do—they genuinely may want to be friends, but they also want to know the pastor or they want to have a friendly relationship with us. Because, you know, the way that we always describe it is like you're always wearing the pastor hat. Yeah.
[00:13:12] You know, that's always something that other people see in you. And he said— Yeah. And he took it off. What would happen, right? Exactly right. And he said, pastoring's weird because ministry's like the perfect storm. Mm-hmm. He said ministry's the perfect storm of work, faith, and community. They all collide. The hard part is you won't really know who your real friends are until either something happens and they walk out or until you no longer hold your position. Mm-hmm. But here's a positive.
[00:13:41] He kind of spins it back. He says, understanding this dynamic makes grieving easier, clears the fog more easily, and helps you discern what's really happening. Yeah. I think that's true. Spot on. No, so true. Yep. And I think that's—it's such an important piece of the puzzle because I can think of a few instances where something in this lane happened in my life and kind of going, oh, it was less about me and more about what was going on with them and their expectations or approach or whatever.
[00:14:10] And, of course, we always have room to grow, but kind of going, oh, there's more dynamics here at play to be aware of that Kerry Newhoff's pointing at. And that can just give us a sense of, like, it wasn't just me or this thing. It was actually what this person was bringing into the equation, too. So I like what he's getting at, though, because we are employed. We are in ministry. There's expectations about both of those things. And there's, like, a community aspect to it.
[00:14:40] It's a very complex environment that we're in. And so I think there are people who have, you know, there may be some not-so-good motivations that you kind of pointed out, like, I want to know the pastor or I want to feel important or whatever. But then there's also, like, I care about my pastor, so I want to be a friend to my pastor.
[00:14:59] And I remember when I first got hired at MarineV as an associate pastor at a seminary, they assigned two younger guys to be my friend to help me, you know, feel like I knew some people and show me around and take me out and go golf or whatever. And so I think there can be really good motivations, too. But all those things that Kerry Newhoff's pointing at, those are still at play in there. If you take off the pastor hat, what would happen in that relationship? Yeah.
[00:15:28] Yeah, and I think it was Scott McKnight, I heard him say something to the effect of that if you avoid friendships in your church, you're robbing yourself and them of a gift that God gives you ministry. And I think the distinction is, maybe the reframe is, congregational friends can be real friends as long as you understand they're not going to meet every friendship need for us as pastors.
[00:15:57] And if we can go into that or remind ourselves of that, I think that when things like this happen, it isn't so disruptive. Yeah. I don't know, man. You know, I'm thinking about all this stuff, you know, of course, as I'm feeling it in real time. But I think that's kind of why I wanted to talk about it in process. Well, even as we're talking about it, maybe there's some names and faces coming to mind for people. And they're like, what if they turn on me?
[00:16:26] Or what if they walk away? How does that kind of feel? And what's, man, I should prepare myself for the worst, right? It's like, it's a horrible way to live, you know? It really is. It's kind of waiting for that other shoe to drop. And so once you've been burned a couple times, I think it does get harder and harder to risk the kind of vulnerability where those friendships can happen. But, you know, what is the bucket of friendship that this relationship meets?
[00:16:54] And having, I do think, in addition to having some good friends in the congregation that kind of meet some of our friendship needs, it is vitally important, as you mentioned already, to have deep friendships outside of that circle. Yes. That are going to be there come what may. And so alongside of that, if we have those kinds of relationships and invest in them, I think we're going to be able to weather some of the hard things that come. Because like this week, you and I had the chance to talk and just go, ouch, dude.
[00:17:24] Yeah. And know that we're not going anywhere and we're in each other's lives in that way. So it is unique as pastors to risk friendship in your congregation, but if we have a solid friend circle outside of our church, I think that helps set us up for success with those. Yeah. So for me, it's leaning into these friendships that aren't dependent on my role at church. Yeah. And there are some.
[00:17:54] So obviously other pastors and colleagues continuing to lean into those relationships. And for me, what does it mean to lean in? I need to find opportunities to hang out. Yeah. Which are hard. That's the hard thing. It is hard. To try to figure out. So even you and I, and we barely ever see each other in person because we live on separate coasts. You know, it's like, but, but even, you know, pastors a couple of towns over. I mean, think about Robbie down at Tom's River.
[00:18:19] I would hang out with him a lot and he's only 45 minutes away, but it might as well be 4,500 miles. Yeah. So just kind of figuring out how, how do I get better at that? The next one is complicated because we do have some friendships outside of the church in our community. And that's great. And we do do things with those friends, which feels very freeing. On the other hand, half of that friend group started coming to the church after we had met them in town.
[00:18:49] And so now not only is it mixed, but now I feel like I'm still representing the office of pastor, even when we're just hanging out with them. Yeah. And then, um, so I, I have to continue to work on that, but I think reminding myself it's okay to have friends at friendships. It's even okay to have close friendships. Just understand that your role as pastor is always playing a part in that.
[00:19:17] And it's not the worst thing, but it's a thing. Yeah. And to understand that, you know, when, when things like this happen and they sort of leave the church or kind of move on, then, then it's not necessarily a reflection of that the friendship was bad. It's has a lot to do with other things that really weren't to do with the relationship at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's tough because there's a little bit of an asterisk on the friendship with people in our church. That's like, that kind of has these factors in mind.
[00:19:46] And so I think there can be a sense of loneliness even in your friendships, right? Yeah. Where I can't really fully be myself here. I have to, and we should be thoughtful about who we are all the time. Right. So you should find people you can just cut loose with and be a crazy person. That's not it. It's just, can you really, really fully be yourself without kind of the, the fears that are maybe associated with, with being that vulnerable.
[00:20:12] And, um, I think that is, it's just that awareness of, of all those dynamics is, is a huge piece of the puzzle. But then also like, you know, I have one of my best friends. I see once a year, we pick a Huskies game, UW here, and we're having a tough season already. Anyway, it's not going to go well for us, but we go to one game a year. That's how often we see each other. We pick a game on the calendar and we're like, we're going to go to that game together.
[00:20:37] But we, then we text and call and check in and, you know, find ways to develop those friendships, uh, that are kind of those anchors for you outside of your, your church. But, um, it's interesting, Jason. I felt like we're kind of talking around the, the issue a little bit, and I'm not sure that there's a strong conclusion that I, I've really come to other than wanting to be hopeful that there are really, truly, mutually life-giving friendships that we can have in the church.
[00:21:04] And I think it means that we have to be aware, but also kind of personally healthy enough. And that's, I don't know. I don't know. Having been burned a few times, it's like, am I ready to risk that again and again and again? So, tough one. Well, I, well, I think, again, coming back to the idea that congregational friends can still be real friends, even if I don't go all the way with that vulnerability. Yeah.
[00:21:32] Um, but I, so, so don't lean away from congregational friends, but at the same time, I, it is worth the time and the energy to really try to cultivate those outside friendships, um, where you really can be real and, you know, off camera like you and me. Right? Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and think about it. I mean, I hope I'm friends with most of my staff, but I also have a role in that.
[00:22:00] And so it's not, it can never just be, we're just buddies hanging out and doing life together. It can't be that. And so there's always that factor and the same with our friendships in, in, in the church. And so it is, it carries that, that with it.
[00:22:14] And I, I, I don't know, as we're kind of kicking this, this idea around, there's sort of a conviction for me that it's like our office makes that, that depth of friendship really challenging. Yeah. So here's an experience I sometimes have. People will want to be close friends with me and I'm not ready to be close friends with them. Yes.
[00:22:43] And managing that piece well. And so, and there's a sense in which our relationships are kind of a mile wide and an inch deep with a ton of people in our churches. But there's this part of this that longs for just a few of those deeper relationships, right? That, that we need. And I think that's the piece about discerning well, who those, those friendships are going to be. You know, I have lots of best friends, Jason, people who, you know. Yeah.
[00:23:07] Because I'm, of the role that I play in their life and, but I don't, there's not a mutual kind of, of way of, of engaging. So lots of layers here. I feel like we need to go find an expert to tell us what's right. I'm done. We probably do. Or maybe there's some pastors listening. They're so unhealthy. They got to figure this out, right? I know. I know. What's the matter with us? No. Bend down the road. No, but. To feel the sting. Yeah. Well, that's just it. That's just it.
[00:23:36] And so this isn't exactly an episode that has a ton of answers, but I think this is an important question that we all need to consider and wrestle with and figure out, you know, for each of us, you know, what are, what are our healthy boundaries going to be? How do we, how do we lean into friendships without, I guess, over leaning onto those friendships? I don't know. That's it. So this whole experience for me has actually been a good reminder, not a fun one.
[00:24:05] Yeah. But a good one. And maybe this will help pastors out there who are kind of feeling the same way or. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a call to be discerning here, right? It's like, understand the expectations that are coming into this relationship. Understand the dynamics of the pastor hat versus just, I'm just a person in the world. And kind of go, what, what is this relationship? What are my hopes for it?
[00:24:30] And, and, and just getting aware instead of just kind of going, oh, I'm sure it'll be fine. And it'll work out. Like trying to understand the dynamics at play and then discerning alongside that, you know, what is this person's expectations of me? And, and how much can I risk vulnerability here? And what's wise in that?
[00:24:49] And I think that's a learned practice that you and I over time, you know, we're like, okay, what is the level of friendship that I'm able to wisely provide here and what's a reasonable way for us to relate? So those are just things that you kind of have to sort out on a case by case basis. And in some ways, maybe there's some values attached to that of the kind of people we want to associate with or be around. But in a lot of ways, it's just, we take it as it comes and, and somebody will say, hey, I want to be your friend.
[00:25:17] And we have to go, what's the wise thing to do here? I mean, listen, Jesus calls us friends and we let him down on a regular basis. That's right. That's right. Maybe this is part of it. Totally. But anyway, just kind of maybe a shorter episode today, but just wanted to kind of ask the question again, as I continue to wrestle with this stuff. But we also, Jesse, there is a monster on the horizon of Christmas. It's coming. Yeah. It's a good monster, but there's always a lot to do.
[00:25:47] There's a lot going on. So next week, since we're in October, we're going to talk about it. We're going to talk about kind of prepping and getting ready. We've started our planning, getting some things ready for what we want to do and what our strategy is going to be. So we're going to talk that. We do that every year because I think it's a good reminder and it gets both of us kind of rolling. Totally. We just ordered our Christmas postcards. I mean, like, how is it here already? It's crazy. Already? I know. It's crazy. I know. Yeah. But anyway. We're bringing back to 11 p.m. this year, Jason.
[00:26:17] Let's go. It sounded good in August. We'll see if it sounds good on December 24th. Also, hey, well, the other thing is by the time we get to Christmas, I've already about a dozen things punted to the new year. I got to make sure I don't do that again because I find I get to January and I'm like overwhelmed with all the things I said we would do in January. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I can't wait. I always love talking Christmas, man. Me too. Me too. All right, folks. Hey, reach out to us anytime.
[00:26:45] Jesse or Jason at reclaimleader.com. And until next time, ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together.