Let's say you DO have buy-in from the congregation, but there are still some who still aren’t in (and they're stirring things up). Do we need unanimous support or a simple majority or a super-majority? 6 Tips to Deal with Change Resisters.
[00:00.000 --> 00:16.000] Make sure that the person is heard, but for the love of God, don't give them more power in the organization. Don't elect them to the board. Don't make them the co-leader.
[00:31.000 --> 00:36.000] Six tips to deal with change resistors. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:41.000 --> 00:49.000] Hey everyone, welcome to episode 325 of The Reclaimed Leader. I'm Jason Tucker, back again, better than ever with Jesse Skiffington. How's it going Jesse?
[00:50.000 --> 00:57.000] Good man, I'm doing well. Plugging away in the trenches, all the things that we do as pastors and leaders in our local churches.
[00:57.000 --> 01:04.000] Always glad to get to talk shop with you and talk about how do we navigate change. We've been kind of thinking through that whole process.
[01:05.000 --> 01:13.000] I really like the lane that we're in, because change is constant in the life of the church. Sometimes there's high seasons where there's a lot of change going on.
[01:14.000 --> 01:21.000] But throughout our leadership, we're going to experience different times where we need to lead change well around a new vision or an idea or a project.
[01:22.000 --> 01:34.000] I love where we're going today to talk about how do we handle it wisely, effectively, when there's resistance to the changes that either we're proposing or as a leadership team, we're proposing.
[01:35.000 --> 01:38.000] So how do we do it? Jason, you have all the answers for us today.
[01:39.000 --> 01:44.000] Well, I tell you why. I don't have all the answers. I have some in the race list because I got the scars to draw from.
[01:44.000 --> 01:51.000] That's right. We've learned the hard way and we've also learned from people who've led change before us who said, hey, look out for this.
[01:51.000 --> 01:57.000] And remember, way back in our second episode, Jim Mead said, if you lead well, you will have the scars to prove it.
[01:57.000 --> 02:02.000] And part of leading change, you're going to take bumps and bruises and it's not going to always feel great.
[02:03.000 --> 02:11.000] But I love today what you lay out for us. There's some things that we can do to kind of mitigate against change resistance and handle it wisely and well.
[02:12.000 --> 02:18.000] Yeah, last week, in episode three, 24, I loved. So the whole dog sled leadership in the dog sled has stuck with me.
[02:19.000 --> 02:22.000] And I'm like, I'm surrounded by snow break people.
[02:23.000 --> 02:24.000] I'm just kidding.
[02:25.000 --> 02:27.000] Maybe we start a Facebook group of snow break people.
[02:28.000 --> 02:32.000] But no, I thought it was really good. And this is really a follow up to that is okay.
[02:32.000 --> 02:34.000] Let's say you did everything right.
[02:34.000 --> 02:39.000] Let's say that, you know, because we've been in this lane of like, how do you get buy in all of that?
[02:39.000 --> 02:46.000] And let's say that you did all the things, but now you've got some change resistors and you're not sure what to do.
[02:46.000 --> 02:50.000] Like, how do you deal with those who still aren't in?
[02:50.000 --> 02:51.000] That's right.
[02:51.000 --> 02:56.000] Do we need unanimous support or simple majority or a super majority?
[02:56.000 --> 03:00.000] How do we deal with the resistance? That's really the lane that we're talking about today.
[03:00.000 --> 03:10.000] So people to either let off the break a little bit to move the sled down down the trail or if they just can't get there, how do you help people sometimes even move on?
[03:10.000 --> 03:14.000] And that's a we'll get into that a little later, but that's a hard that's a hard one.
[03:14.000 --> 03:24.000] Yeah, it is. And as a bit of a of a preamble to the actual kind of six tips to deal with change resistance, I just want to point out a couple of things.
[03:24.000 --> 03:27.000] The first is the importance of empathy in this process.
[03:27.000 --> 03:31.000] What has this person who's resisting change been through?
[03:31.000 --> 03:32.000] Yeah.
[03:32.000 --> 03:37.000] You know, oftentimes it's misplaced or disproportionate anger.
[03:37.000 --> 03:48.000] It's kind of like I say, and I've had this experience before, we're like, you know, when you really like a band and you love their music and their next album comes out and they had radically switched their style.
[03:48.000 --> 03:55.000] And you're so mad because you just wanted to linger longer in what you loved.
[03:56.000 --> 04:02.000] And that's just how changes changes hard because it can be so personal and emotional.
[04:02.000 --> 04:10.000] So I always try to, and it's not always easy to do this, but I always try to sit back and go, okay, what's going on in this person's life?
[04:10.000 --> 04:15.000] What could they have been through? What are they going through now that's causing them to react this way?
[04:15.000 --> 04:19.000] You don't always know the answer, but I think pausing and asking the question is helpful.
[04:19.000 --> 04:29.000] Yeah, for sure. And trying to have that sense of as you put empathy for them, like what is going on in their shoes, in their mind, in their heart, that's causing this kind of reaction.
[04:29.000 --> 04:33.000] And sometimes you're going to find reasonable things and sometimes not so reasonable things.
[04:33.000 --> 04:44.000] But if you think about it, the times when you've been faced with change that you haven't liked, you can begin to go, okay, I can identify with them to an extent, even though I believe in the direction we're going.
[04:44.000 --> 04:55.000] And even though we're not going to stop moving in that direction and we're not going to not do what we've set out to do, I can understand and empathize with their resistance.
[04:55.000 --> 05:09.000] I get it. Change can be hard. And it's hard to adapt. And I think the longer you live, sometimes the harder it is to adapt, especially if everything around you is changing and the church is the last place that feels like there's some continuity.
[05:09.000 --> 05:15.000] And now this pastor is coming along and wants to change things. You can get why people might be resistant.
[05:15.000 --> 05:29.000] Yeah, absolutely. And to be reminded that, and I think this came from Jeannie Stevens when we had her on many years ago now, but is that clear strategy provokes deep fear.
[05:30.000 --> 05:41.000] It's divisive at first. Ambiguity is not scary. It's when there's a clear, because people are afraid of losing something that they love. So again, I think that's an important reminder.
[05:41.000 --> 05:56.000] And maybe you want to check out episode 311. We talked a little bit about this is that, but at the same time, even though you have empathy and understanding what change, just the thought of change could do to people, you have to remember why you're doing it.
[05:56.000 --> 06:13.000] Jesus embodied grace and truth. He never dumbed down truth or turned down grace. So how do you face the opposition? I think kind of the overarching way or philosophy or posture, if you will, would be help them reframe the problem.
[06:13.000 --> 06:24.000] Help them reframe it from some from an emotional issue to an issue that has to do with kind of like, again, building a sense of urgency and what you're trying to accomplish.
[06:24.000 --> 06:34.000] You could do that through education and preaching, so on and so forth. Connecting with their legacy. Hey, you put your heart and soul to this church for so many years and your money.
[06:34.000 --> 06:41.000] And we want to make sure it doesn't end with you want to make sure that we are reaching your kids and grandkids with the gospel.
[06:42.000 --> 06:50.000] To remind them that change is a choice or a consequence, but it's coming. Yeah. So we want to make sure we're at least intentional about it.
[06:50.000 --> 06:59.000] Yeah, I think stopping to come back to some of those people and just sound them out and hear their questions and hear their lament or frustrations sometimes that wins people over.
[06:59.000 --> 07:10.000] And I like what you just said, I think the legacy piece goes a long way. When you know the story of the church and the successes of the past that we're now building on or something like that.
[07:10.000 --> 07:21.000] There's something of a vision that carries a legacy with it. And I've found that if you can acknowledge the good that God has done in the story of the church that people, people can then begin to move forward with you.
[07:21.000 --> 07:32.000] So we always trying to think in terms of vision and legacy. Yeah, we can't live in the past. We can't live off our legacy, but we can honor it so that we can move toward the new vision. Yeah.
[07:33.000 --> 07:41.000] Yeah. And then I think just, again, having a winsome spirit, let's figure it out together. This is an experience, an experiment.
[07:41.000 --> 07:50.000] Oftentimes when we really change, we say things like, we're going to try this thing and we're going to reevaluate it. So they know it's not a permanent change necessarily. We're just going to try it.
[07:50.000 --> 07:54.000] And it helps people hold it a little more loosely. Yeah.
[07:54.000 --> 08:03.000] Maybe, maybe churches you want to consider what we talked about in episode 322, Bob White's little statement of change boundaries.
[08:03.000 --> 08:15.000] And by the way, when I mentioned an episode like that, you can just go to reclaimleader.com forward slash then the episode number. So 322 and I'll link it to that episode and give you the resources there. But that's something you do.
[08:16.000 --> 08:29.000] And then lesson add, that Stan Ott is famous for that phrase, the blessing add. And by the way, he's going to come back on the podcast before Easter to talk about engagement. So I'm excited for that.
[08:29.000 --> 08:44.000] But, you know, it's okay to have a church within a church. It's okay to keep what's going going and to also start something new. So all of that is sort of prelude to dealing with the actual change results.
[08:44.000 --> 08:49.000] And it's prelude because I didn't have any neat categories for it. These are just.
[08:49.000 --> 08:53.000] These are just supporting ideas, right? The reporting ideas. That's exactly it.
[08:53.000 --> 09:01.000] It's the context. Yeah. Okay. So what if you do all that you're doing and you still have people who resist?
[09:01.000 --> 09:10.000] Do you write them off? Do you, you know, just keep going and don't acknowledge them? Do you try to chase after each one and persuade them?
[09:10.000 --> 09:19.000] Is it possible that some may choose the status quo no matter what you do? Yes. Yes.
[09:19.000 --> 09:24.000] But here are six tips to dealing with the resistance when it happens. All right.
[09:24.000 --> 09:28.000] Number one, prayerfully listen.
[09:28.000 --> 09:31.000] This is the thing you're not going to want to do.
[09:31.000 --> 09:36.000] It's such a pastor thing to say, right? You are not going to do this. I don't want to do it.
[09:37.000 --> 09:43.000] Why? Because I'm convinced that the change that we're doing needs to happen and I want everybody on board.
[09:43.000 --> 09:47.000] So I honestly, I don't want to hear it. I don't want you to tell me all the reasons that you hate it.
[09:47.000 --> 09:55.000] But that's more of a reason for me as your pastor. I've got to be disciplined enough to prayerfully listen.
[09:55.000 --> 10:03.000] And again, as we mentioned that old Billy Graham line, you may be right. I'll pray on it.
[10:03.000 --> 10:11.000] Well, I think there's a humility in that too. When you genuinely are wanting to know if there's anything to the concern,
[10:11.000 --> 10:19.000] if you have enough humility to say, I care about what you're telling me about your hesitations or your concerns or whatever.
[10:19.000 --> 10:28.000] And I think it takes a prayerful posture. Like Lord, help me to be passionate about and excited about where we're going and what we're working on.
[10:28.000 --> 10:39.000] But patient with the people who are having difficulty with it. And I think it's something of the empathy, prayer can shape our hearts to be more attentive to the needs and concerns of others.
[10:39.000 --> 10:46.000] And but it's hard because we fought hard for this change and we worked hard while we just want to keep moving forward.
[10:46.000 --> 10:53.000] And frankly, sometimes the stick in the mud types are the ones that are the hardest to be to preferably listen to,
[10:53.000 --> 10:58.000] because it just doesn't quite seem fair. Some of the criticism or shots that they take.
[10:58.000 --> 11:07.000] Or it feels like they're against everything. So it's like, well, what else is new? But the funny part is we have somebody who's in the church.
[11:07.000 --> 11:15.000] He's kind of like that sort of a stick in the mud. Although in fairness, this particular person has become more open over the years,
[11:16.000 --> 11:26.000] but certainly several years ago, he was like that. And I would say for every 10 times he would be against something.
[11:26.000 --> 11:34.000] There was at least one out of 10. He made a vital catch that we needed to correct. And it drove me crazy every time.
[11:34.000 --> 11:44.000] I'm like, oh, we got to listen. He actually may be onto something. And that's another reason to prayerfully listen is maybe that critique
[11:45.000 --> 11:51.000] or that resistance is meant for you to adjust your course. And so you have to be open enough to hear it.
[11:51.000 --> 11:58.000] Or it might just refine that idea one more step to make it make it that much better or to go, yeah, I hadn't thought about that.
[11:58.000 --> 12:02.000] I think, you know, that posture goes so far. So I love that.
[12:02.000 --> 12:07.000] Meeting people where they are trying to empathize and understand and perfectly, perfectly listening.
[12:07.000 --> 12:10.000] All right. Number two, trust the plan.
[12:10.000 --> 12:18.000] Trust the plan. Remember, if you had a good process and you've gone through all this, you've gone through, you've had your, your vision.
[12:18.000 --> 12:25.000] You've gone through your leadership, your elder board, whatever it looks like for you. You put it out to the congregation. You've had town hall meetings.
[12:25.000 --> 12:29.000] You've had and everything is looking really good. Trust the plan.
[12:29.000 --> 12:35.000] Trust it. And we just, we just talked about this in episode 323, but if you have a good process, trust it.
[12:35.000 --> 12:45.000] So in other words, don't just because a couple of people have resistance doesn't mean that you have to just, oh my gosh, what have we done? Let's backtrack everything. No, no, no.
[12:45.000 --> 12:52.000] Trust the plan. If the Lord was with you in the planning process, you got to trust that He is still with you in the implementation.
[12:52.000 --> 12:59.000] Yeah. Anytime we try to implement change as a leadership team or in our role as senior leaders or pastors or things,
[12:59.000 --> 13:10.000] I think there's a vulnerability that comes with that that does necessitate trust in order to move forward because all of our worst fears, we're worried might be realized.
[13:10.000 --> 13:15.000] Maybe it won't work. Maybe this is a failure. Maybe this stick in the mud is right. And this is the worst idea ever.
[13:15.000 --> 13:27.000] And, you know, there's something that John Gottman, who's a marriage family institute guy up here at the University of Washington, he looks at relationships and he says that the negative always outweighs the positive in relationships.
[13:27.000 --> 13:35.000] And I think it's true in the process of leading change that we tend to hear the negative so much louder than that affirmation or the positive.
[13:35.000 --> 13:39.000] We might have 10 people to say, I think this is going to be great. Jason, this is going to be awesome. I think God is in this.
[13:39.000 --> 13:48.000] We might hear one voice that is doubting and fearful and hesitant and it feels, you know, like, well, maybe they're right.
[13:49.000 --> 14:04.000] So trust the plan in the midst of your vulnerability, trust that this is the right direction and know that that negative you're hearing is going to sound a lot louder than the positives that you're maybe receiving.
[14:04.000 --> 14:08.000] So, yeah, that's just a good reminder. You did the work.
[14:08.000 --> 14:13.000] God is in it. Trust it. Keep moving forward. Absolutely. Okay. Number three.
[14:14.000 --> 14:21.000] This one, Jesse, you had to put this one down there. This one, I have been burned by. Yeah.
[14:21.000 --> 14:29.000] I mean, absolutely by number three, don't overcompensate for the resistance. Yeah.
[14:29.000 --> 14:32.000] So here's what I mean.
[14:32.000 --> 14:35.000] Make sure that the person is heard.
[14:35.000 --> 14:48.000] But for the love of God, don't give them more power in the organization. Don't elect them to the board. Don't make them the co-leader.
[14:48.000 --> 14:53.000] Here was my thinking when I've done that in the past is, okay, here's a person.
[14:53.000 --> 14:57.000] And the reason they're resistant is they just must not understand. That's right.
[14:58.000 --> 15:13.000] And if I could get them on board with the team, they're going to be a really powerful change agent because, oh my gosh, if if he is for it, man, it must be fine.
[15:13.000 --> 15:18.000] Well, that's not how it went down. No.
[15:18.000 --> 15:20.000] Ever.
[15:21.000 --> 15:25.000] Listen, it doesn't mean you don't have to give them the keys to the car. That's right.
[15:25.000 --> 15:37.000] It's it's but, you know, definitely make sure they're heard. Take their resistance seriously. But if you give them too much power, it can really disrupt all the work that you've put in.
[15:37.000 --> 15:45.000] I think the hard thing here, Jason, is that a lot of times pastors are people oriented and we want people to like us and not in an always unhealthy way.
[15:45.000 --> 15:49.000] We want to be friends with people. We want, you know, we want to move forward together.
[15:49.000 --> 15:57.000] And so we might do things like bring them into the leadership team with the hope that they'll get on board when really that's just going to work against us in every way.
[15:57.000 --> 16:05.000] So I think we sometimes have to pump the brakes a little bit and go, okay, I don't want to over-promise anything here. I want to listen. I want to be attentive.
[16:05.000 --> 16:19.000] If there's something that is in their criticism or their feedback that we can implement or bring in, maybe that helps. But I'm not going to overcompensate by bringing them into the leadership team or promoting them further up in the organization.
[16:19.000 --> 16:27.000] I, you know, sometimes when we're managing things, the temptation is just to promote them out of the problem, right? Yeah.
[16:28.000 --> 16:38.000] Yeah. We're like, well, yeah. And it's like, no, no, no, no. That's not going to actually, it's just going to make the problem bigger and probably worse. So let's just deal with it as hard as it is.
[16:38.000 --> 16:51.000] And part of that is to know the wisdom of sometimes instead of giving someone more power, you actually kind of have to work around them to take away some of the power that they may have in the organization.
[16:51.000 --> 17:05.000] That's where it starts to get political. And I don't know. We want to be careful about that stuff. But if we're not careful, someone like that can end up derailing an amazing direction or opportunity for the church.
[17:05.000 --> 17:15.000] And we just don't want to end up in that place. So don't overcompensate, promise something to try to appease them, believe in what you're doing and trust it.
[17:15.000 --> 17:24.000] And trust that if God wants them to come along and you listen well and you're attentive to them, that maybe there's room for their heart to change.
[17:24.000 --> 17:30.000] Yeah. Okay. Number four, look at that. We're over halfway through. Yeah, this is great. Jason, we're moving right along.
[17:30.000 --> 17:41.000] All right. Number four, don't let them roadblock you, right? So call out the dysfunctional behavior. And I put a note to myself, start with yourself.
[17:41.000 --> 17:55.000] Start with yourself on the dysfunctional behavior, but call out dysfunctional behavior. Don't let it stop the plan because that's, that's sometimes the next move is the disgruntled person or the change resistor.
[17:55.000 --> 17:57.000] You didn't give them what they wanted.
[17:57.000 --> 18:03.000] You may have listened, but they don't feel heard because you didn't immediately agree with all of their suggestions.
[18:04.000 --> 18:16.000] So then it, then sometimes they go into roadblock mode. And it comes out sideways and people are stirring the pot and rallying the troops and trying to stir up the trouble and all that.
[18:16.000 --> 18:32.000] And the only way to counteract that I think is, or let's maybe not the only way, the best way is, again, that whole truth and grace is call, just call out the dysfunctional behavior, call them out and say, Hey, we had a conversation
[18:32.000 --> 18:38.000] and then you went and you stirred the pot with these people. It got back to me. So let's talk about that.
[18:38.000 --> 18:42.000] Yeah. And again, you're not going to want to do this either. This is very uncomfortable.
[18:42.000 --> 18:47.000] This is uncomfortable territory. I would call this have the courage to initiate when you see dysfunction.
[18:47.000 --> 18:48.000] Yeah.
[18:48.000 --> 19:00.000] Like when you're noticing people are trying to put up a roadblock or trying to cause problems related to the change because they're resisting it or don't like it or whatever, the temptation is to hope that goes away on its own or something.
[19:00.000 --> 19:09.000] But, you know, this is one of those times where I've just learned to pick up the phone and say, we need to meet or to just to be take the initiative and be on the front foot.
[19:09.000 --> 19:15.000] What's the old thing about if someone's looking to have a meeting with you, go find them first or something like that.
[19:15.000 --> 19:23.000] Like just be proactive enough and have enough courage and belief in what you're doing that you're going to be able to call out dysfunction.
[19:23.000 --> 19:34.000] And I would say this is one of those culture things. Sometimes we need to do the work ahead of change to say, this is who we are as a community and this is who we're not.
[19:34.000 --> 19:45.000] And as a community, we treat each other with respect. We don't talk about each other behind each other's backs. If we have a complaint or some some critical feedback, we bring it through the right channels.
[19:45.000 --> 19:53.000] And so we're going to be healthy even when we disagree. So you kind of establish that. And then when you see unhealthiness in the midst of change, you can say, hey, that's not who we are.
[19:53.000 --> 20:09.000] This is not how we do this as a church. We don't do it that way. So it's hard though. No, none of us got into ministry to have confrontational, maybe somebody did, but I think most of us don't like conflict and try to avoid confrontation.
[20:10.000 --> 20:19.000] But if you're willing to engage, you will begin to get a reputation as someone who was willing to do that. And I think you'll actually get out ahead of some bad behavior.
[20:19.000 --> 20:27.000] Yeah. So, you know, I learned kind of early on, for whatever reason, I guess I was young enough and naive enough to have some of these kinds of conversations.
[20:27.000 --> 20:36.000] And people began to notice and say things like, what I appreciate about you as a leader is you're not scared to have hard conversations.
[20:36.000 --> 20:51.000] You're willing to engage in hard conversations and be upfront with people about things. And that is a useful thing to have in your leadership tool belt because then people go, okay, this isn't going to go unaddressed if I act out and something.
[20:52.000 --> 21:06.000] Yeah, no, that's really important. And I think I don't think it would be too over the top to say not rewarding dysfunctional behavior is one of the most important things in church renewal and church health.
[21:06.000 --> 21:15.000] Because dysfunctional behavior has been rewarded in most churches for way too long. And that's how you get people that have caused roadblocks all over the place.
[21:15.000 --> 21:23.000] Yeah, rewarded or ignored, I would say, it's like, either you've somehow given to them because you don't want to deal with it, or you ignored hope goes away.
[21:23.000 --> 21:39.000] And it becomes this cultural phenomenon in your church that dysfunctional behavior either goes unaddressed or is allowed to happen just out in the open. And yeah, I don't, we can't have that. So, yeah, don't let them be roadblocks. Don't be a roadblock yourself by being unwilling to go and address that stuff.
[21:39.000 --> 21:40.000] Yeah.
[21:40.000 --> 21:46.000] All right, here we go. Number five, hold on to your mission mindset. Yeah, good stuff.
[21:46.000 --> 21:54.000] Decide if it's about keeping everyone at all costs or reaching more people at some cost.
[21:54.000 --> 22:05.000] And that's an just an important reminder. Like are we trying to reach people with the gospel beyond our four walls? And if we are, what's it going to take to do that? And are we sacrificing,
[22:05.000 --> 22:15.000] reaching them for the handful of people who are upset? And frankly, if they're believers in Jesus should know better.
[22:15.000 --> 22:23.000] But it just sort of is what it is. But keeping that mission mindset's crucial because that's what I think steals your resolve to keep moving forward.
[22:23.000 --> 22:34.000] Yeah. And that's a hard one because, you know, we tend to think like, I don't want people to leave or I don't, and I think it's important to have an open door policy in the sense of,
[22:34.000 --> 22:44.000] is not lightly, but if someone feels like this is no longer the place for them in the congregation or the direction of the church,
[22:44.000 --> 22:57.000] there are a number of really wonderful communities that they can find to be a part of. And trusting the direction the Lord is leading you in and trusting that God has something good in store or in mind for them to as they go, if they're willing to find it.
[22:57.000 --> 23:07.000] And that's a hard thing, though. And I remember my college pastor said when people would come and complain to him about the direction of the ministry or whatever,
[23:07.000 --> 23:14.000] he would slide the college directory across the table to them and say, there's 10 other great ministries. Go find one that fits better for you.
[23:14.000 --> 23:15.000] Oh, man.
[23:15.000 --> 23:20.000] That's intense. I'm not sure we want to go to that level with someone who's been part of the church for 40 years.
[23:21.000 --> 23:27.000] And then they go tell their seven friends that being all the pastor said, I should leave or something.
[23:27.000 --> 23:39.000] But I think it is a deep belief in the direction and leading change that you have to be okay with some portion of the congregation saying, I don't know if this is still the church for me.
[23:39.000 --> 23:45.000] And I don't know if you're the right pastor for me. And that's a hard thing. It doesn't feel comfortable.
[23:45.000 --> 23:51.000] But some of that is okay. And I would just say this, you're never going to make everybody happy.
[23:51.000 --> 23:52.000] Mm hmm.
[23:52.000 --> 23:58.000] Even if you're doing nothing, you're going to make the people who want to change unhappy. And who would you rather upset?
[23:58.000 --> 24:08.000] The people who are stuck and status quo minded and not moving forward or the people who are willing to move the church forward towards something vibrant and flourishing and new.
[24:08.000 --> 24:21.000] Well, I would rather work alongside the people that want us to go somewhere than to try and aim to please the people who are just willing to, I don't know, waiting for the church to go away eventually someday.
[24:21.000 --> 24:29.000] I don't know. So anyway, mission mindedness is huge and a willingness to let people leave. That's a hard thing.
[24:29.000 --> 24:40.000] And part of that to Jason, I think is, I don't know how you guys handle it. But when we introduce change, at least as we've done this in the past, and people choose to leave.
[24:40.000 --> 24:52.000] Do you guys do an extra interview with people? Or do you just sort of say, we're going to, if we do that, then it sort of submits their leaving and there's no opportunity for them to come back.
[24:53.000 --> 24:58.000] That's that's what we do. So, so we do not do exit interviews unless they request to sit and meet.
[24:58.000 --> 25:08.000] Yeah. Because I listen, everybody's in flux. It feels very liquid as far as people jumping in different seasons of their lives.
[25:08.000 --> 25:12.000] And I just don't ever want them to feel like they've closed the door.
[25:13.000 --> 25:27.000] You kind of make it if you meet and you say, Hey, why did you leave? Give me the five reasons, etc, exit interview, then it sort of means they have to commit to those things and stand by them.
[25:27.000 --> 25:34.000] Yeah. Whereas I think a better approach. This is just me. Maybe I don't know if this is for everybody, but something like I get it.
[25:35.000 --> 25:46.000] I wish you would stay. You're always welcome back. Something like that. But I can understand and let me know if I can help you find a new community or if I can help you in any way as you go.
[25:46.000 --> 25:56.000] But a lot of churches, I think, spend too much energy running after the people who already have one foot out the door and trying to figure out how to convince them to stay or to come back in.
[25:56.000 --> 26:06.000] And the reality is, I don't know that those people are necessarily going to be honest 100% of the time about the reasons why they're leaving because they don't want to hurt your feelings or whatever.
[26:06.000 --> 26:12.000] And so you might end up changing things that you think would cause them to stay, but that's not really the reason why they're going.
[26:12.000 --> 26:15.000] So anyway, there's probably a whole episode on that.
[26:15.000 --> 26:25.000] They're very careful topic, but important, right? And so mission mindedness gives us the courage to allow people to leave if they need to.
[26:25.000 --> 26:30.000] That doesn't come to that. And we want everybody to come along if we can, but sometimes that's going to happen.
[26:30.000 --> 26:35.000] Yeah. All right. And then lastly is just keep it real.
[26:35.000 --> 26:43.000] In other words, remember that they're probably a vast minority of the people who are experiencing change reaction in your church.
[26:43.000 --> 26:50.000] And we talk about the 10, 10, 80 rule, right? The 10% early adopters. They're happy about everything that you do.
[26:50.000 --> 26:55.000] And they're your evangelists. They're on board before you even have a fully baked plan.
[26:55.000 --> 26:56.000] That's right.
[26:56.000 --> 27:02.000] And then you have about 10%. And honestly, it's usually way less than that.
[27:02.000 --> 27:10.000] 10% of people who just are not happy at all, they're very disgruntled. They don't want to do the change in their, you know, up in arms about it, their change resistors.
[27:10.000 --> 27:19.000] But the rest of the 80% are somewhere on the spectrum between those two. And it's mostly people, they might not be super excited, but they're also not angry enough to even say anything.
[27:19.000 --> 27:27.000] You never hear from those people in the 80%. So what that means is about 90% of the people are okay with the change. So it's just keeping that real.
[27:27.000 --> 27:38.000] Keeping that in perspective that those few voices that are speaking up, it's a small group, probably within the congregation, maybe not necessarily the folks that you want to spend a lot of time listening to.
[27:39.000 --> 27:49.000] Because if you do, if you sacrifice the mission to one out of 10 and beyond that to the 100 people that you might reach beyond that, like, that is a huge impact.
[27:49.000 --> 27:53.000] And so we got to be careful with that. I think that's a good reminder. Keep it real.
[27:53.000 --> 28:07.000] Understand that this is probably a very small group within the congregation. And I think one thing that we can do to help with that is to remind ourselves and the congregation at times that we, isn't an amazing that we're the kind of church.
[28:07.000 --> 28:16.000] That tries things. Talk about change when you're not changing stuff. Talk about and celebrate, isn't it great that we're the kind of church that's willing to take risks.
[28:16.000 --> 28:23.000] And I love that about us. And we do our best to adapt. We don't always get it right, but we're trying stuff. And I just think that's so cool.
[28:23.000 --> 28:31.000] And I'm grateful to the Lord for us as a church family. And it kind of creates a culture that says, we're expecting change. We're going to take risks and we're going to do things.
[28:32.000 --> 28:40.000] And I think over then, then people aren't blindsided by it or they go, yeah, so 90% of the people are going to be like, yeah, that's kind of who we are as a church.
[28:40.000 --> 28:47.000] We try stuff and we want to reach the next generation and adapt and do all those things. So, so even just having a few phrases like that.
[28:47.000 --> 28:54.000] Like, yeah, we're kind of church that tries stuff. We do think we take risks and we think it's worth it and so much fun to be a part of stuff like that.
[28:55.000 --> 29:00.000] All right. Well, hopefully, folks, this helps you as you're dealing with change resistance in the life of your church.
[29:00.000 --> 29:10.000] And just don't remind you that if you are not subscribed to our email newsletter, it is reclaimleader.com forward slash newsletter and you get subscribed every single week.
[29:10.000 --> 29:18.000] We send a newsletter that's got some takeaways from the podcast episode as well as some other information meant to help you continue to move forward.
[29:19.000 --> 29:30.000] Again, reclaimleader.com forward slash newsletter and also subscribe to the podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts, leave us a review, all that stuff helps us to get found by others.
[29:30.000 --> 29:38.000] And we're so grateful for our listeners who've been listening with us. Gosh, many of you have been with us this whole journey since 2017, which is wild.
[29:38.000 --> 29:47.000] So, yeah, it's awesome. So next week, we wanted to tease up our guest Carl Vaters are walking him back to the podcast who is a small church expert.
[29:48.000 --> 29:55.000] Really is a church expert and who's written some books and has become really the go to resource for small church ministry.
[29:55.000 --> 30:01.000] And we have a great conversation with him about church health for churches of all sizes.
[30:01.000 --> 30:06.000] So looking forward to that next week. Anything else before we get ready to sign up?
[30:06.000 --> 30:09.000] I just, I really love this lane that we've been in the last handful of weeks.
[30:09.000 --> 30:12.000] And of course, this is like center set for you and me.
[30:12.000 --> 30:17.000] Like we love talking about leading change in the church and some of the challenges that come along with that.
[30:17.000 --> 30:20.000] And so hopefully this is useful for all of you listening in.
[30:20.000 --> 30:24.000] And of course, you know, subscribe, get the newsletter, do all that.
[30:24.000 --> 30:28.000] And then feel free to reach out, you know, Jason or Jesse at reclaimleader.com.
[30:28.000 --> 30:39.000] That's our email addresses. And if you send us a note and we'd love to talk talk shop with pastors that are in the trenches and leaders that are leading in their various organizations and that kind of thing.
[30:39.000 --> 30:43.000] So I love it anyway. I don't know about you, Jason, but just it.
[30:43.000 --> 30:48.000] There's a camaraderie of leadership in the local church that I think we kind of all can go.
[30:48.000 --> 30:52.000] Yeah, it's it's hard, but it's good and it's better when we do it together.
[30:52.000 --> 30:58.000] Absolutely. All right. Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week with Carl Bader. Have a great week.
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