[00:00:00] I never know which is going to be the God moment, but I am praying, saying, I think we're going to have a God moment. Lord, let me be attentive and courageous enough to stop. Because usually what I did in the 90s is I ran over the Holy Spirit like a speed bump. Like, we had God moments. I felt them. Moving on, like, I just didn't know. I did not know that, like, in my notes, I should say to myself, Doug, when you see a God moment, stop.
[00:00:27] Welcome to episode 445. Today we welcome back Doug Schaupp for part two of our conversation on relational evangelism. Last week we learned about the five thresholds of faith, and today we talk about how to break the huddle and apply the threshold model to how we do church together. Like the woman at the well, it's about meeting people where they are and taking them to Jesus. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker.
[00:00:56] And I'm Jesse Skiffington. We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us, and some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Welcome back, everyone, to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. If you're brand new with us, you found us. Congratulations.
[00:01:26] I hope that you find this really helpful and meaningful in your ministry and encouraging in your faith. Our guest, who is back with us for part two of a conversation that we've been having about evangelism, Doug Schaupp. He's a super encourager, and he's also really inspiring. We're really glad that you get to hear our conversation with him. Last week, again, if you didn't hear last week, you want to go back and listen,
[00:01:53] because he introduces this idea of the five thresholds through his book, I Once Was Lost. And today, we go to part two, which is about the next book, which is sort of a follow-up to I Once Was Lost called Breaking the Huddle. And how do we apply the five thresholds of evangelism to our church communities? Yeah. Yeah. And this is crucial because it's where the rubber meets the road, right? The concepts are so good of the five thresholds.
[00:02:21] And now let's translate that into the lived experience of the local church. And then for us as leaders, how do we begin to move our communities in this direction with God's help? And so this is a really valuable second part of the conversation, and they really go together. So I'm just grateful that Doug took an extended amount of time to really go into both of these ideas that are going to serve us well in our churches. Yeah. And in case you, again, in case you haven't listened, if you're still listening and you haven't listened last week, man, I'm telling you,
[00:02:51] you got to go back and listen. But just in case, we are going to give away, probably next week, we'll give away a copy of both I Once Was Lost and Breaking the Huddle. And bless somebody's ministry. The way that you can be a part of that is subscribe to our newsletter, which you do on our website, reclaimleader.com, and you'll be entered. And we'll do a drawing on camera so that everybody knows Jesse wasn't cheating, okay? I try not to cheat whenever. The winner is Jesse's mom. What are you talking about? That's right.
[00:03:19] Anyway, thanks for being with us. Just reintroducing Doug. Doug is the National Director of Evangelism for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. He became a follower of Jesus during college, end of his freshman year, and through InterVarsity. And I love when he was telling that story about how that happened. And after graduating, he worked at UCLA for 10 years. And that's really when he learned how to contextualize the gospel.
[00:03:46] He says he tried a million crazy things, and most of them failed, which I love. Since then, he's served as the Los Angeles Divisional Director and Regional Director for Southern California. Writer, teacher, author. And Breaking the Huddle, by the way, is Outreach Magazine's Outreach Resource of the Year for 2018. And he's coming up on the 20th anniversary of I Once Was Lost.
[00:04:12] So he's great, and I can't wait for you to hear this. Here's part two with Doug Schaupp. I love that. I feel like that is just a beautiful image of evangelism. They didn't know the song, but they wanted to be a part. I mean, that's amazing. That's who we should be, right? Isn't that who we should be? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:32] So I want to now pivot, because then you released another book, Breaking the Huddle, that really talks a bit about how do we—because I think a lot of pastors listening, they'll be thinking, okay, well, how do we do this? How do we incorporate this in our church? And I think there's probably as many ideas on how to do it as there are pastors out there. But I loved how really practical you got in Breaking the Huddle about it. And you set it up as sort of like three community types.
[00:05:02] So you can imagine church communities as one of these three types. It doesn't have to be churches, I suppose, but huddled witnessing and conversion communities. Walk us through what you mean by each of those and kind of what you start to unpack in Breaking the Huddle. Love to. Let me step back just for a quick second. And so the Heath brothers wrote a book called Switch, and it's the elephant and the rider.
[00:05:29] And so what we tried to start doing in between Once Was Lost and Breaking the Huddle is applying the five thresholds to the way people think, the rider, the way they see. And so then that's about relationships. But then we wanted to make them feel the five thresholds. And that's the elephant. And how can they feel differently in love? And then the five thresholds on the pathway became Breaking the Huddle.
[00:05:57] So we applied five thresholds to hearts and minds. But then we started applying five thresholds to systems. And we turned it into a verb, thresholding. And so as the more we got better at thresholding communities and churches, then that's how part two Breaking the Huddle came about. So just to kind of connect the dots. Yeah, that's awesome. So in a huddled community, witness is a concept.
[00:06:26] It is proclaimed from the pulpit. We know we're supposed to value it. And conversions are rare. Adult baptisms are rare. And I would say that the majority of churches that I've encountered in the U.S. are huddled. Then they move. And it's this beautiful shift. And God grabs somebody, the pastor or somebody, and they say, what if witness became a top value? And it's not a concept, but it's the true north.
[00:06:56] And we're like, now we're going to change our reason for existence. And witness is going to drive who we are and what we do. And so witness goes from a concept to a top value that is repeated again and again and again. And they become witnessing communities. Witness becomes more normal. And then conversions are periodic. And baptisms, adult baptisms are periodic. And it's no longer weird.
[00:07:25] Conversions are no longer weird. Adult baptisms are no longer weird. And there's a witness is incorporated into the trainings. And then a third, that's like revolution number one, witnessing communities. But then revolution number two, no less crazy, is from witnessing to conversion communities. And conversion communities like Acts 2 are where conversions are normal and weekly.
[00:07:54] And people making new faith decisions happen consistently. And witness is normal. Everyone is learning to share about Jesus, talk about their faith, lift the bushel off of what God's doing in their life. And non-Christians are integrated throughout the church. Non-Christians are integrated throughout. It's funny because in these conversion communities, non-Christians come to prayer meetings and they watch you. It's so weird.
[00:08:23] It's so weird to be in a prayer meeting and just have like a couple of non-Christians. They're not praying. They're just watching. Right? And then they're just around and that's okay. And it's okay for them to just see the life of faith wherever we go. And those are the three kinds of communities. Yeah. Obviously, I'm biased toward the conversion community. That's awesome. Because when you visit a conversion community, what you notice is the Holy Spirit. Yeah.
[00:08:53] You're like, oh my gosh. Like God lives here. Like that's my emotional reaction when I visit a conversion community because faith is higher. Faith is stronger. Like even the new believers are praying for miracles. Because they believe in a robust Jesus. They believe like Jesus can work today, just like in Acts, just like in the Gospels. And that's the Jesus we want people to follow, not the academic Jesus or the theology Jesus.
[00:09:23] We want them to follow the real Jesus. It's really good. I'm thinking in my head as you're saying all this, I'm like, which one are we? Yeah. And if I'm honest, I would say we're probably, we're between two and three. We haven't quite arrived at fully conversion community, but that is definitely where we all want to go. And that makes me really excited. Awesome.
[00:09:51] We should have another conversation about that sometime. I would be honored to roll up sleeves with you and, you know, just think about your church, Jason. That'd be fun. I will take you up on that. So the idea of breaking the huddle, if you have breaking the huddled community. What are some ways that churches can start to do that?
[00:10:18] You know, it's one thing to be upfront and to preach it. How does it start to, how does it start to really catch hold? Yeah. Are there some practices that you've identified? Yeah. It's hard. So let's just, let's just be real. It's hard to change culture. So back to the elephant and the rider and the path, I have seen pastors start with the path. I've seen them start with the rider and I've seen them start with the elephant.
[00:10:47] And so I can't, I don't think one is the right way to start. Um, because I'm a vision guy and I'm a people guy. I have been starting with the rider and the vision for the last 15 to 20 years. Um, that may not be the best place to start, but I start, I start with prayer. We call this the two plus card. And I ask every single person in the pews, every leader, fill it out. Six non-Christian names.
[00:11:16] Your name goes in the middle and then only, you know, pick two. And I'm like, it's okay if you're praying for the wrong people. Don't try to get this perfectly. And then, um, in the two plus card, we have the five thresholds on the back. So then it's like, guess where your people are at kind of a thing. So it moves, but that's your, that's your intercession assignment. And so what we're saying to everybody is prayer paves the way. And then I sing about prayer as you start to care, you start to look, you start to notice.
[00:11:46] Um, I've never seen that card fundamentally change the culture of a church, but it's a good starting place. Um, and then what, what, uh, what you and I were talking about, Jason with like Easter and Christmas is we need to turn Easter and Christmas into invitations to pathways, change the pathways that we're offering people and don't just have events.
[00:12:13] And, um, that's like profoundly true. Uh, and then, um, I like things like alpha. I like things that come alongside. Um, and the good thing about alpha kind of like my opening story, alpha is about questions. Non-Christians love to ask their questions. When I was a freshman, I loved to hear my own voice in Bible study and the fact that they made space and didn't judge my questions.
[00:12:40] It's kind of like I was in an alpha except that was just an intervarsity Bible study. Um, that's, I'm a, I'm an alpha fanatic, uh, because it creates space for next steps. It creates space for questions and space for, um, pathways. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. And thinking in terms of like, you know, sometimes we'll work with pastors and churches on a discipleship pathway.
[00:13:06] And a lot of times we're thinking of stuff on the far side of putting your faith in Jesus. And so growing in that and developing in that, which is important and good, but are there, what I'm hearing you saying is we got to provide some opportunities and on ramps on the other side of that, that have to do with these thresholds of moving towards Christ. And I think that's where maybe we come up short and maybe that's where something like alpha fills a pretty substantial gap in our, in our thinking.
[00:13:32] So if we don't have something like that, then we're inviting people who are maybe curious or open to now be like down the road and we're teaching what mature believers do. And they're like, well, where do I fit into all of that? So yeah, that's helpful. So discipleship pathway, adding some of this on the front end. Are there other things that you've seen work well for that? So alpha is a great one. Um, yeah, I got some, I got some dumb ones. Yeah.
[00:13:59] So today I was literally today, I have a partnership with the Vineyard USA and Josh, um, their associate director of evangelism and justice was talking about his church in the last two months. They started for the first time doing Jesus whiteboard and the people, Jesus, the whiteboard and the people. And they opened the front door of their church. This is super dumb. They opened the front door of their church.
[00:14:25] They bring out the dry erase board and the question of the day is there. And it is, does God care about everybody? Does God see you? These are like the questions of the day. Then they just hand out the dry erase pen. All these people are putting their questions, their answers, their things on there. These are not the questions that the church people are asking. It's the people out on the street that are asking these questions.
[00:14:53] And then they changed the question the next week. I think they do this like once a week. They change the question the next week. This guy comes up and he's like, you know, every, every day this last week, I've been thinking about your question. Can I answer last week's question instead of this week's question? Yes, sir. You can answer last week's question. And they had someone become a follower of Jesus just this last, because what they did is they broke the huddle, right?
[00:15:19] They literally opened the doors of the church and they said, the public is out in front of our church. How come we don't listen to them? How come we don't engage them? And so what you can do is you can take small little things like a dry erase board, or I heard another story in rural Canada, churches in rural Canada and their, their newsletter,
[00:15:44] like in a rural segment of the population, the newsletter inside the church becomes kind of a community wide newsletter. Nice. And so just by opening up the newsletter to the town, instead of just to church members, it was like standing room only at their next Christmas service because they opened the doors and said, we're going to now care about the people out there and do even a small opening
[00:16:13] like a dry erase board or a newsletter of kind of folksy newsletter of like, who's doing what suddenly made an opening to the community. So that's what I like when I coach churches, that's what I'm looking for is like, what's the small thing. But if we, if we change some habit and just made it outward focused, it might domino effect. Yeah. I, you know, I love about that. It, it takes away everybody's excuses.
[00:16:41] I would do evangelism if we had this much. I was an extrovert. These resources. I was like Jason. I was like Doug. Yeah. Yeah. Then it would be way, you know, and I love that because it's just like, you're taking the, it's really the principle behind the what. But, and so you could interchange the what with a lot of different things, but it doesn't have to cost hardly anything. I love that. Those two examples are pretty cheap. Yeah.
[00:17:09] So there's a lot more to talk about, man. So have me back. Have me back. We'll have you back. Wow. We got a lot to talk about. At the end of. I haven't even gotten to my good stories yet. So keep going. I mean, right. Like, I don't know. I feel like I just need to let you just share some stuff anyway. You, you, you address toward the, toward the end of breaking the huddle. You really address some of the leadership lessons on how to do this.
[00:17:37] What are some thoughts on, you know, what should leaders be prepared for when it comes to trying to lead change in this way, trying to get it going? Because I do know that there are a lot of leaders out there that feel so overwhelmed or so stuck or so I'm afraid if I do this, then whatever little momentum we have is going to be interrupted. What are some of your thoughts on that?
[00:18:09] Um, let's take baptisms. Um, and there's baptisms in a huddled community. There's adult baptism in a witnessing community. And then there's adult baptism in conversion community. Adult baptism is all the same, but it's how you pray, how you expect, how you think, and then what else you see during and after the baptism that makes the difference.
[00:18:36] So what we're asking pastors and leaders to do is take the good stuff that you already do pray differently before, look differently during, and expect differently during and after. So if you're a huddled community, you're just happy to have an adult baptism. You do the adult baptism and then you're onto the next thing. It's a, it's a ritual.
[00:19:01] It's a routine, um, in a witnessing and then into a conversion community. You say to the person beforehand, invite as many of your non-Christian family members as possible. We're going to ask you to share a one minute testimony. Now, when someone shares a one minute testimony, you don't give them the microphone. Never. You hold, you hold the microphone and you interview them. Or you learn that the hard way you do it.
[00:19:29] We've done this one the wrong way before, or you do it on video even better so that it's like you can control what they do and what they say and don't say. Um, but then you have family members in the front row, you have testimony. And then what the person is, what the, what the pastor's doing, what the leader's doing is they're lifting up their eyes and they're looking at the eyes of the family members, not the person who's getting baptized.
[00:19:56] And so as you're dunking the person who's getting baptized, you're looking for Holy spirit ripple effects. And then usually in about one hour, there's a God moment. And the God moment is what the testimony. Tony, you don't know when you're planning these things, when I'm planning these things, I never know which is going to be the God moment. Is it going to be the song? Is it going to be the scripture? Is it going to be the something? But I am praying saying, I think we're going to have a God moment.
[00:20:25] Lord, let me be attentive and courageous enough to stop. Cause usually what I did in the nineties is I ran over the Holy spirit, like a speed bump. Like we had God moments. I felt them moving on. Like, I just didn't know. I did not know that like in my notes, I should say to myself, Doug, when you see a God moment, stop and say, God's doing something. Literally all you got to do is just go, God's doing something. What are you feeling?
[00:20:56] God's doing something. What are you feeling? And then they start to cry. And now you're like, something's happening right now. Turn it into an invitation. So then I say, you know what? Some of you are realizing that faith is not just for special people. Faith is for anybody. Cause if this schmo can get baptized, if this person can figure out what faith is, maybe there's hope for somebody like me.
[00:21:23] And if that person can have faith, maybe I could explore faith. If you would like to be interested in exploring faith with me, Bob and I are going to host a Bible study for his family members who are here. And I'll bring free pizza. So come on over. We're going to start next week. That turned like a God moment into a God movement. Cause one yes could become four yeses, but it means next week I had to have an open placeholder in my schedule. Yeah.
[00:21:52] It means that I'm expecting fruit and we've already decided ahead of time who the follow-up person is. So conversion communities, witnessing communities to conversion communities, you expect decisions and then you expect testimonies to trigger curiosity and openness. And then it's what comes afterward that you have to plan ahead of time. Lord, I'm going to save an hour. Please put something in there.
[00:22:21] That's worth some follow-up and busy pastors have a really hard time changing how they do their calendar. And then they don't follow up with the fruit. They see decisions in witnessing communities and they get surprised and they do nothing with it. And that was me in the nineties. Decisions were an ending point, not a beginning point. But people who start to think like movements, no, no, no. Decisions are a beginning point.
[00:22:49] The woman at the well, it's not her as an ending point. It's now her as a witness. And then revival breaks forth. And that's what we're praying and trying. Yeah. It's like, so the decision point is just like, okay, great. You're in. Let's go. It's not the, okay, you're in. And, you know, moving on. I think that was great. And who else needs this story of good news? And what if that was like right now, right next door? So fun. Let me do. Can I do one more? Please.
[00:23:17] So we have a new believer Bible study. We can put it in the notes. It's my favorite five new believer Bible studies, fresh faith. I'm coaching a woman in Indiana named Abby. Abby is moving from a huddled to a witnessing to a conversion community all in one year. Wow. Never does it happen this fast, right? She's telling me her story. Last year, she was huddled. One conversion, one decision. And then all of a sudden in the fall, it's like four.
[00:23:46] I'm like, so this is when I meet her, right? She's going through this thing. I started coaching her and I'm like, okay, Abby, we're on a good one here. Okay. This is like what I went through in the nineties. I recognize the aroma of the Holy Spirit. So in January, I said, let's start discipling your new believers the day they decide to follow Jesus. So they make decisions to follow Jesus. You hand them this. We start moving them toward disciples immediately.
[00:24:16] It didn't work. It got bogged down in logistics. So she had four new believers. She tried to mentor three of them, but the logistics were super cumbersome. And then she did another invitation to faith last month. So this is early April. She had eight new believers. And I said, okay, Abby, we're going to try again. And this time we're going to do it differently.
[00:24:43] And this time you are going to gather them and you're going to bring over the new believers from the fall. And they're going to be the mentors for the new believers right now. So they've been following Jesus for three months. And this is your follow-up team. And you're going to hand them all copies of fresh faith. And you're going to start saying, we're going to meet weekly starting right now. And you just are insisting that part of following Jesus is being a disciple.
[00:25:12] And you're going to like do this thing because she inserted herself into the God moment. Now that's weird. It's weird to insert yourself. She starts giving assignments. It's kind of bossy, kind of nice bossy. Guess what? Three new believers are mentoring eight more new believers all in a God movement. And at the very end, week five is then sharing your story. So I'm going to interview her in two weeks because I'm expecting more conversions after they
[00:25:42] start telling their stories. And that's an example of a moment to a movement, but it's because she expected it, not the first time, but the second time she expected it. And that's my current best bright spot. That's awesome. Yeah. So cool. That's the best case scenario. That never happens to me. In case you guys are like, oh, how'd that happen? This one never happens to me. Like this is like almost revival level that's happening.
[00:26:12] That's really awesome. That's what exactly I was just thinking. So Doug, thank you so much. Thank you for jumping on with us and for your time. We are most definitely going to have you back on. Um, I feel like we're just scratching the surface with, uh, and, and I just find this super, super helpful just going through this. And, you know, that's the thing that I think a lot of pastors and leaders just sort of forget
[00:26:38] that it's a, it's both a supernatural and sociological reality. It's both how do people tick and how do we trust the Holy spirit to feed them? And how do we make sure we set the table in a way that they want to be fed? You know, like, um, and so thank you. Thank you for that. And for really, um, painting the picture for us. And I pray pastors, if, if you're interested, please, first of all, go out and get both of those books. I once was lost and breaking the huddle.
[00:27:07] And is there a way that folks can reach out to you? Um, you, do you have an online presence there, Doug, that, that you would refer people to? Um, yes, please. Uh, I just started my coaching business two weeks ago. Wow. So five T, five T consultants, five threshold consultants, and I'm happy to give people a free 30 minute consultation. And then we're just kind of brainstorming what I offer and who they are. And we see if it's a match.
[00:27:36] And, um, so, uh, email me at Doug at Doug shop.com. We can put in the show notes, Doug at Doug shop. It's hard to spell that Doug shop.com. And I've been asking pastors, pastor friends the last couple of months, what would your ideal church consultant do for you? What's the headache that you wish somebody else would take on? So my coaching a game is in evangelism.
[00:28:01] It's in huddled communities to witness witnessing to conversion, but sometimes you have to just help the church for right. Like where they're stuck right now. Right. Um, so let me close with a question for Jason. Um, if you could boss me around, you kind of get the sense of who I am. Um, how should I bring my a game to the church? Like if you could add a menu item to my coaching business, what do you think Doug should offer?
[00:28:31] Or what do you think Doug should bring? Well, I think for most churches, the whole, the whole concept of relational evangelism, everybody'd be like, Hmm, yeah. Hmm. But really have no idea what the heck that looks like. I mean, truly like, I, I feel like for folks in the pews, just simply going through the thresholds together and having, uh, conversations around the content together and then literally
[00:29:00] homework to go and start up these conversations or to, or to, you know, become curious about the people in your community. I feel like that would do huge things because what that does is then it puts relational evangelism on their hearts. And now all the other sort of systematic things you want to do make sense. It's, oh, we want to do this because of this. Well, when we were talking about how do you reach people in this ways? Well, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:29:27] And I feel like it always starts with the discipleship piece, which is really what we're talking about. How do we disciple people into understanding how to disciple people? And, and when we can start to help them understand that, which you, I mean, that's literally your A game. Um, that's everything else is going to flow easier, including for the leader, because now the people have buy-in. Yep. Yeah. Well, that's nice. Cause that's already is why I started my business. Boom. Thank you.
[00:29:56] Some validation for you. I think too, a little bit is, is maybe there's some, this isn't quite the right way to say it, but some re evangelism of the people in the pews of like that tills up the soil, like that this matters. And there's an, like, so how do we help churches with the urgency part of the gospel that this matters for real people and real places in the real world and our neighbors next door. And I think that's a, maybe if you think about thresholds that maybe some Christians have
[00:30:24] to cross, it's going from uncaring about my neighbors to deeply caring and loving my neighbors. And so maybe that's something alongside all of that is say, Lord, help us to be the kind of people that love our neighbors enough to tell, tell them the good news or something. I would say that's for our church. There's people who they're really faithful folks, but they're, there's something that has to be kind of tilled up in them again, um, to be made fresh. So I don't know, somewhere in there.
[00:30:54] Do some awesome. Yeah. Although Jesse, you're not allowed to add thresholds. That's not how this works. I don't know. I think it's a different set of thresholds, right? We stopped doing that in 2001. I missed the boat. I missed the boat. Can you help them get through the door jam then? We'll call them door jams. Door jams. That's great. That's great. Because they're too angry. Yes. The door jams of the church back out into the world that God loves. How about that? All right. Great, gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks, Doug. Bless you, pastors.
[00:31:24] Bless you guys. Jason, I gotta say, Doug is fantastic. Yeah. So cool to have Doug on. Doug, if you're listening, thank you for taking the time to join us and just share your heart with us and what God has done in you and through you and creating these fantastic resources for the Christian community and disciples who want to make disciples and be a witnessing community that sees people follow Jesus. So we're grateful for your heart and for your good work.
[00:31:51] And I would say, Jason, maybe the takeaway today for me is a leadership challenge. You know, summer months are coming up and maybe the challenges for the pastors and church leaders listening in. Get a hold of these two books. Maybe you win the drawing that Jason's going to do and not cheat at next week. And read them over the summer. I mean, we're talking, I once was lost. Look, you can read that, right? So to get your head and your heart around these concepts and then prayerfully consider
[00:32:21] what is the Lord calling me or us to do because of what we found here. So I just want to encourage you, challenge you to do that. And I think you're going to be glad you did. So that's kind of my takeaway. Dive into the resource like this and see what God does with it. What about for you, Jason? What are you taking? Yeah, I think that's a great idea, by the way. I think for me, I keep coming back to and thinking, what would it look like for us in our church to move? I feel like our story was we were a huddled community that became a witnessing community.
[00:32:49] And I feel like we're at, I can't, I don't know, maybe it's just something you may can't ever say that we've arrived. Yeah. But I think we're getting really close to being that conversion community. And what would it take for us to really take that next quantum leap in the process? You know, how do we get from here to there? I think is a really great question for us at this time. So I'm going to be chewing on that. I think that's really helpful.
[00:33:15] And I think just having some kind of general categories for us to kind of be self-evaluative of our communities. And there's no shame in, you know, the huddled community. It's like, well, here's some tools to kind of break the huddle and begin to do something else. Right. And so it's about being a leader that has the courage to deal with reality as it is, and then begin to say, God, what do you want to do if this is where we are? And what do you want to do through us? And for you guys, you know, how do I get to that next place of really having this just
[00:33:45] be who we are as a church? So yeah, I can't wait to see what God will do through all of this. And just good to have great conversations with amazing people who are doing fantastic things and willing to take risks and put up whiteboards and see what happens. Yeah, I love it. Those ideas were great, by the way, right? It's like everybody does think that, oh, we need a bigger budget. We know this. Nope, you just need a whiteboard. I love it. Anyway, thanks so much, everyone, for listening.
[00:34:14] I hope that this has been helpful to you and share it, share it with colleagues. Anybody who you think this podcast would help and this episode in particular would help, send it to them. And remember, that's why we're doing this, so that we can encourage one another because ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together. Take care, everybody.