[00:00:00] The idea that when you go to buy a diamond at the jewelry store and you go and the jeweler takes it out and puts it against the black felt, it will never look as beautiful as it does right there. It's got the perfect light. It's so brilliant against the dark background. That should be the beauty of the Christian life. It should stand in greater brilliance against the backdrop of a sin-broken world.
[00:00:28] Welcome to episode 443. Between wars and hantavirus and economic struggles and famine and all the crazy things happening in the world, doom scrolling and hate scrolling have become the norm. But what is this doing to us as pastors? And what is this doing to our church members? Faith Formation in the Age of Outrage, that's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us, and some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. Jesse, it's that time of year, man. It's like the birds are chirping.
[00:01:27] And Waterloo has released their seasonal... Listen, I get excited about things like... Small things in fact. ...water in my life. It's just things. Summer berry. And it's red, white, and blue. I'm feeling like it's summer. Let's grow some hot dogs. I got my summer berry. All is well with the world. Yeah. And there you go. Yeah. For me, it's like allergy season. So, you know, I love that time of year. Thanks. Yeah. Everyone loves the allergy. No, it's all good. But yeah, no, it's fun to be turning the corner towards summertime.
[00:01:56] And it's just a different little pace. Somehow the beginning of summer becomes sprint mode for us. We pack a lot of things in with a baptism Sunday and VBS and a bunch of other odds and ends in the church. And so, once we get past that in, you know, the end of June, early July, ah, then there's a little bit of breath. So I'm not there yet. But I can't... Grilling season is one of my favorite things. So I'm with you. I'll have to go find out Waterloo.
[00:02:25] I don't get quite as excited about paying that much money for water as apparently you do, but that's okay. Listen, Jesse, don't judge. No. So we... Listen, looking for things to be positive about, to look forward to, is a bit of the lane that I want to talk about today. This episode is really just in noticing what's going on in the world.
[00:02:49] Obviously, people are ratcheted up and anxious, and I'd be lying if I said it wasn't me sometimes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Between wars and hantavirus and economic struggles and injustice and racism and famine and persecution. I mean, my goodness, just do a deep dive into what's going on in Nigeria and Christians there. It feels so out of control. Everything's off the rails. Pick a thing. Yeah.
[00:03:17] And I don't know if you get this a lot, Jesse, but I definitely get people talking to me, and they're bringing their anxiety with them. Yeah. And a lot of it's like social media is just magnifying and amplifying everything. Doom scrolling and hate scrolling are real. You know, spending excessive amounts of time, just bad news after bad news. That does something to our soul, and we know it as pastors.
[00:03:42] But I don't know, how do we help our congregations disengage from this way of viewing the world that's literally killing them and, most importantly, making them ineffective witnesses of the gospel? Yeah. Yeah. Because here's the thing. We're in this age of outrage, and Ed Stetzer's book is just a classic in this, and I'm going to reference it here as we talk today. But outrage isn't a great look for Christians.
[00:04:13] And I even notice myself, if I get lost in the feed, I'll find myself, like, I want to start to angrily respond to things. And I'm like, I have to stop myself. I'm like, what are you doing? You're a non-anxious presence, Jason. Yeah. I don't know. I don't always feel like it. Yeah, I know you don't. Yeah. It's tough. I think it's really challenging. I mean, there's a million things to say about the accessibility of information.
[00:04:39] We see so much bad news all the time and stuff maybe we never would have known about a century ago or something like that. And so we're just bombarded all the time, and our people are bombarded all the time. And it's a challenging thing to know how to speak into that, particularly if you're like our congregations that are kind of purple, right? You got people that lean left and lean right and maybe go out towards some of the edges on various issues.
[00:05:03] And how do you do, what do we say as pastors about this other than just to say to them, stop it. Delete Instagram from your phone if you can't handle it. Like, that's part of what I want to say. But I know that we also, we don't want to just bury our heads in the sand either. We want to, we want to live on mission. We want to be aware of what's going on in our culture and engage with it, not in a negative or unhealthy way, but in a, maybe a positive or more constructive and loving way.
[00:05:33] And that's, I think what we're trying to get at today is how do we help our people and ourselves to, to move in a different direction than just to get caught in that, that doom loop and, and sort of the stress and anxiety and anger and all this stuff that comes with it. I mean, I think it's, it's one of the most dangerous things for Christians in today's culture is, I mean, we're already sin broken.
[00:05:59] And so now you're just sort of ratcheting that up to whatever level from our for you feeds and, um, you know, engaging with sensationalized headlines and, and content. So I think that's it. I mean, I, in some ways, I don't know for musicians out there, it's like, it's like there's a tuning fork that resonates with our new nature in Christ. And there's a tuning fork that resonates with our old nature that draws us towards the things that maybe aren't so good for us that comes out of our old self.
[00:06:28] And I think the tuning fork of whatever's going on in that it's like, it somehow grabs a hold of our hearts in a way that just drags us back into the muck and mud and, and all the things. And so I, I don't know, you've got some solutions for us. I can't wait to hear it because clearly I need some help. So let's figure it out. Well, I've been thinking about this and I've been having conversations with young people and adults about this who have come to me saying like, what do I do?
[00:06:54] Um, I mean, after the last election, I had people who like, couldn't get out of bed. I mean, it was really, really difficult for many. And I was thinking about something that Tim Keller said once about the Christian life. And it always sticks with me because it's such a vivid image.
[00:07:13] And I know I've shared with this, uh, with this, with you before, but the idea that when you go to buy, uh, a diamond, you know, at the jewelry store and you go and the jeweler takes it out and puts it against the black felt. And there's no, it will never look as beautiful as it does right there. It's got the perfect light. It's so brilliant against the dark background, you know? And he says that should be the beauty of the Christian life.
[00:07:42] It should stand in greater brilliance against the backdrop of a sin broken world. And so I think about how are we Christians engaging the world online? I don't think we need to hide. I don't think hiding from the world's the answer, but I think if we struggle in our ability to navigate social media, we at the very least should consider taking a break. If not decide to leave social media behind.
[00:08:10] If we can't handle the temptation of jumping in with outrage. Totally. I mean, isn't the first step in solving a problem, acknowledging that there is one. Right. So we kind of meet. I'm fine. I'm fine. I can stop anytime. We're talking about, you know, Paul's talking about growing and abounding and more and more in love and knowledge and depth of insight. You know, where do you need to bring that depth of insight that the spirit kind of helps us see our lives for what they are.
[00:08:36] And we go, Lord, if there's a way in which I'm getting trapped and tripped up by, by this, help me to see that so that I can begin to address and, and approach it. In a healthier way. Because honestly, my solution. So I'm still back on like Instagram. So I guess I'm analog. Basically. I don't know what other ones are out there or whatever. TikTok and all the things. But when I get into it, my, my, I don't really doom scroll as much. That's more my news feed. Like I'm reading news articles and that's where I kind of go down that rabbit hole.
[00:09:04] But on Instagram, I mostly watch baseball videos and like puppy videos. And then Nate Ragazzi videos. Like those. He has approved Christian content. Totally. Right. It's like, it's so, but it's like an hour of, of just. Right. Right. And then I'm like, I can't handle it. And, and, and I don't have the discipline clearly to not. So I just delete it from my phone. Right. And I'm like, well, is that the right answer? Maybe it is. It's like trying to quit cold Turkey or whatever. So what do we do, Jason? I mean, truly. What do we do?
[00:09:34] How do we get some, some healthy engagement? Because a lot of our world lives in that, that world. Right. The people that we know, our neighbors are all there in some capacity online. What, how do we do it well? So I keep asking more questions. I didn't really have some questions and guesses, but let's, let's get after it. Well, I would recommend to any pastor in church to it's, it's dated now. I don't remember the year this came out. It was right before the pandemic.
[00:10:00] I think maybe 2019, 18, 19 Christians in the age of outrage by Ed Stetzer. I think it is one to have on every pastoral library. And it's still relevant. It's still relevant. And the point he's making about outrage, because some people are like, isn't it right to be angry about sin that we see in the world? And, and, you know, he's like, well, yeah, but we've demonstrated we don't do that very well. We don't do a very good job. We don't do that in a very healthy way.
[00:10:27] Well, I mean, maybe anger that sparks you to, to action or something helpful or constructive, but if all you have is the anger and nothing constructed to do with it, it just, yeah. So I think that's the amazing piece. He talked about the Starbucks Christmas cup drama in 2015. So, uh, Joshua Feuerstein on Facebook, he posted about how they, they took Christmas off the cup since because of Jesus. And, um, from Ed's book, he says out, he says, the problem is Christians went crazy.
[00:10:55] And do you think that the people on the board of Starbucks were like, boy, those Christians are so loving and, you know, generous in spirit. And, you know, of course not. Well, let's talk to Howard Schultz about it. He, he was pretty understanding for me. No, I didn't talk to Howard Schultz. So, um, Stetzer says outrage is disproportionate, selfish, divisive, visceral, domineering, dishonest. It is sin.
[00:11:21] And, and I do think worse, it causes us to neglect our mission. As I said earlier, he quotes Charles Spurgeon, great preacher who said, neglecting our mission is on par with the vilest heresies in the history of the church. Hearts that do not bring Christ to the world prove they do not actually love Christ. Wow. Whew. Boy, they could preach it back then, right? Yeah. And he didn't have any social media to deal with. How did he do it? What was he doing?
[00:11:51] And, and I think there are examples of people who are trying to do this well, at least on social media. There's tons of Christian content creators. Um, I think some of them are really good. And I think others, there's always that game that you see them playing about trying to get followers and likes. And, but then you think maybe the ends justify the means. And if I just get the followers and I can give whatever, but I will say, I want to shout out to Redeem Zoomer. Many of you know, uh, his profile on social media.
[00:12:20] Um, and I just want to, I really appreciated this post he put out a couple of weeks ago on X. He said, after talking with, this is April 29th. After talking with pastors, I've decided to stop arguing online. I'll still be making content streams and formal debates. I've realized online interactions and arguments and the culture thereof have turned me into
[00:12:49] someone I don't want to be. I, I really appreciated this post. I felt like this is a really good, faithful, mature response to say, you know, I've taken part in some things here online that I don't love and I don't know, really reflect Jesus Christ in the way that I want to, or, or, or me the way that I want to. And so I'm going to change course. And this is a guy with a lot of followers.
[00:13:17] I mean, that, that post got, well, almost 68,000 views on April 29th. So I don't know how many it has now, but I think that's awesome. I think that's an example of, Hey, look, I'm going to try to do this. I'm going to be engaged, but I'm going to set some guardrails around this for myself so that I could do it in a healthier way. I think that's really wise. And, you know, part of what I'm always encouraging our team to do is think in terms of what are
[00:13:47] the values that we operate by in whatever environment we happen to be in? And are we consistent with that across things? And somehow online, some of that stuff kind of gets parked to the side a little bit, or we're not able to be as nuanced there. And I think particularly with posts, I mean, it's like the stuff that gets traction and gets followers, it has to trend towards the negative five things not to do three things that are in your life. It's be careful about whereas stuff that's more nuanced is like, it's not as interesting
[00:14:16] for people to click on and whatever. And so, but can we bring the same value system that we would to a relationship or to our neighbors in the real world that and bring that into the online space in some way? You know, who am I going to be in my behavior and my action, my attitudes as I engage with things online? And easier said than done. But bringing something of that, it sounds like that's what's happening here.
[00:14:41] Some recognition that I want to change how I engage and who I'm going to be as I have an online presence. So yeah, good job working on that. Yeah. Christian Research Institute had an article on January 3rd, 2024 called A Christian Response to Scrolling and Doomscrolling, which I love. That's a great title. Yeah. I'm going to quote a little bit from this here and there, but one thing it says about redeeming social media use. So with an adequate understanding of the risks and benefits posed by online access, Christians
[00:15:11] can learn to engage online content in meaningful, non-compulsive ways. I think that's healthy to think about. Like, yeah. Cultivating the ability to read well along with engaging in meaningful social relationships can offer Christians a key to reprogramming our brains to use social media and wise in proper ways. I think, in other words, get outside and make some friends. It's a little bit what it's saying here. That's right. But it's not wrong. Yeah.
[00:15:41] Sometimes we forget that this online interaction isn't the same as interactions in person and in community. And, you know, there are some who argue that. Some will say, I don't know, digital relationships are just as much or just as real as in-person relationships. And maybe. But what I've noticed definitely is that there is a much different filter that people use when they're online, which is basically no filter.
[00:16:10] In person, whether there's a give and take in relationships, that's just a lot different and a lot healthier. The article goes on to quote, says, Paul encourages the church at Colossae to set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on the earth and to put to death, therefore, what is earthly in you. What we choose to meditate on and put our thoughts toward matters. So I think it's.
[00:16:39] Maybe it's. Do you think maybe it's just an awareness of what you're. I keep saying social media, but I really think that's one of the biggest issues. Is that what. Is that the fix? Yeah. Yeah. Awareness is incredibly important for us. Right. Self-awareness, others awareness, awareness of how things are impacting us in good and bad ways. I mean, that's just what that's wisdom.
[00:17:09] Right. We ought to be thinking about that and who are we and what impact is this having on me, on my character, on who I am called to be as a follower of Jesus. And if we're not asking that question and we're just sort of rolling along and we're noticing some things or, you know, it starts to impact our relationships, our closest relationships, our marriages. I mean, so it's vital that we ask these kinds of questions and go, is this leading me in the way I should go and bringing life or is it doing something else?
[00:17:39] Yeah. And I get it. There's a there's sort of a Lay's potato chip aspect to this. Right. Remember the old ads for that? That means the brilliant marketing. I bet you can't just eat one. Right. Yeah. And it's true. It's really hard. And so the discipline part and the non compulsiveness part, I don't know. I'm sure there's some behavioral psychology behind that that can help us. But just from a value standpoint or the why behind it, just getting enough on the balcony,
[00:18:06] particularly as pastors, probably to just go, how is this impacting me? What's going on in my heart because of all this? And how might that be true or not true for some of the people in my congregation? So just I like that we're in this evaluative mode rather than like saying it's good or bad. It's more like what's it doing and what are we going to how are we going to engage? Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. I had a conversation with my 17 year old about social media and about when, you know,
[00:18:38] his mom and I raising him and trying to figure out when's the right time to give him the phone and what apps do we allow him to do and all of that. Did you guys decide on all that? And can you give that to me for my he actually he said something and maybe he's just, you know, buttering our bread a little bit. But he said, yeah, it was good. You didn't give me a phone too early. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:04] And he goes, I know I was bugging you for it, but I'm glad you didn't give in. And he was talking about what he hopes for his kids and how he'll teach them about cell phone use. And he actually said, you know what? I think my generation will be better because we grew up with it. So we'll sort of know. Yeah. What's the right way. And I said, you're probably right, because we were all trying to figure out what it is for ourselves and then trying to figure out what's appropriate. How do you teach you how to be parent? Right. Yeah.
[00:19:33] And so we've kind of had that same experience. And as much as my son is like, Dad, I know this is good for me, but I also really want this. Like what a good what I mean, there's a lot of wisdom in just that that kind of answer. So I think they should have a podcast. They probably should. I would like to do it. I mean, that'd be great. I'd be all over that. OK. Yeah. So here's some things that I come back to as I'm having conversation with people in my congregation. I thought maybe it'd be helpful to consider for all of us. Yeah.
[00:20:02] If you find this helpful, you know, some pastors and be like, no, I'm good. I got this buttoned up. And that's awesome. Please contact us. That was how you're doing it. But the first one I always come back to, I say, remember. Fear, anxiety, all these things we see in this broken world should be expected. God isn't surprised. You shouldn't be either. This is the state of things.
[00:20:28] But if we trust in the sovereignty of God, we trust that everything going on, God's working in things we can't see and bring about his purpose and ultimately reconciliation of all things. And to remember, spiritual warfare is real. And, you know, we don't need to be like the Amish and be so afraid of technology that we run from it. On the other hand, I think we should be like the Amish and know exactly why we use each technology we do and make sure that it is.
[00:20:57] It remains a tool and not a slave master. Remember who you are and whose you are. And also about struggle. Struggle is an opportunity to suffer and share the love of Jesus Christ. That I always remember my friend who became a doctor. She was one of my youth group kids. And I was talking about that I had a fever and I was going to take Advil. And she told me not to take Advil unless the fever was really high. And I'm like, why?
[00:21:27] She goes, because the fever is what kills the virus. Like your body knows how to kill the virus. Let it have a fever. As long as it's not dangerous, let it have a fever. The fever of this life is, in a lot of ways, what can heal us. It is the suffering that causes us to cling to Christ. And so when we experience things like anxiety and we remember Jesus' prayer to not be anxious about anything, but this is life.
[00:21:56] This is the Christian life. It should be expected. And it's not something that we need to get so worked up about that we don't even know how to function because that's not what Jesus has taught us. Yeah, that's really good, man. I love it. And then kind of a next step is, okay, so addressing that, the remedy is to fix your eyes on Jesus. Develop, I mean, double down on spiritual practices, develop a rule of life, just a closer walk with thee.
[00:22:27] The good news is only amplified in the face of bad news. The brilliance of the diamonds against the felt is even more dramatic against the backdrop of a sin-broken world. So if we can just stay focused on him, I think that's the right focus. It's hard to focus on other things when you're focusing on Jesus. It's easy to not focus on Jesus when you're focused on everything else. Sure.
[00:22:58] Yeah. That article from Christian Research Institute said, when Jesus prayed his high priestly prayer to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, he said, I do not ask that you take them, my followers, out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Jesus asked for God the Father to intervene to protect and guard his people from being influenced by the devil to stand apart from the world.
[00:23:25] And so Christians are Christ followers must critically engage things in the world. Social media and scrolling may seem innocuous, but Christians are called to stand apart from what the world calls good and be thoughtful about our engagement. Yeah. No, that's really spot on. I think in some ways, I think the people I talk to about this, we kind of know that answer, right? We know that it's your eyes on Jesus' answer.
[00:23:55] And I think, yeah, so maybe it's, you know, in some ways it's a discipleship question, but what's getting in the way? Like, because we know that's what we ought to do. And yet still the potato chips, you know, like they keep coming. Yeah. And so, yeah, I wonder if it's almost like other addictive kinds of things. I mean, we create groups to help and support around those things and encourage each other to have the right focus and to not fall back into temptation.
[00:24:24] And like, I think there's some real concrete things that maybe we can do. Like taking a, you know, we'll do a Bible reading challenge, right? We'll say, hey, we want everybody to read this as we're going through this series, or we want you to pray every day for this amount of time about X, Y, Z. Maybe we need to do some of those kinds of discipline challenges around these tools that are available to us that we want to use in a good way, but we might need to have some boundaries around.
[00:24:50] And so we're going to all take the screen time challenge, you know, for the next month. We're not going to go over 15, 30 minutes. I don't know, whatever you could handle, Jason, of just scrolling because we want to see what it's like to break free from that for a little bit. And I don't know. So I'm just making that stuff up. But I think disciplines or it's like our spiritual disciplines are partly our will or our desires in wanting to fix our eyes on Jesus.
[00:25:17] But also it's like alongside that is community and the Holy Spirit, right? Because otherwise it's just our willpower and that's going to come up short in the end. So it's got to be something in the context of encouragement and community to spur each other on. And then like the work of the Holy Spirit to remind us of what is good and true and lovely and pure and admirable. And somehow those pieces got to connect. And I don't know that I've ever said that out loud to my congregation. So maybe it's the next step.
[00:25:47] And maybe if we, I think another very simple way of putting it is, hey, look, if evidence of the Christian life is the fruit of the Spirit, just simply ask yourself what fruit is being produced in you by whatever you're doing online or how you're reacting to the world. I mean, that's a big indicator for me is when I realize things aren't right, when I respond disproportionately angry to the guy that cuts me off or, you know what I mean?
[00:26:15] Like when anger bubbles over and it happens quick, I'm like, there's something else. Yeah. Or I think it's resentment or distraction. Or maybe sometimes for me, it's like a loss of motivation to do the things that matter. And I'm like looking at another sermon going, oh, I got another sermon rather than this is an opportunity to preach God's word. And so, yeah, there's something that happens in our hearts that we got to pay attention
[00:26:45] to and go, what does that mean? So I think this is wise. Yeah. All right. And then the kind of the last bucket here is I actually think one of the things that gets us stuck and whether it's social media or not, one of the things that gets us stuck is instead of looking for what Jesus wants to do looking forward, we're always thinking about what's wrong right now.
[00:27:11] And I think if we have a forward looking faith, like where does Jesus want to take you next? That will take focus and energy and everything about you to get to that. Do you think what Jesus has to offer you is compelling enough that you can get rid of distractions and you could follow it so that you can be where Jesus wants you to be? Like, how can we be forward looking, have vision, look at how do we want to bring the gospel
[00:27:41] in our lives? I think when we start thinking about that, we kind of get pulled toward that life when we get excited about what's ahead, what's in front of us that the Lord has. Yeah. No, that's really good. I think it opens things up and it opens up possibility. It opens up direction at something to be about rather than kind of the myopic focus and sort of suffocating focus of maybe social media that holds us right where we are.
[00:28:10] And I think that's spot on. So where are we going and what's exciting about that? In some ways, I know you've had these kinds of experiences, bro. But when you have that focus and you're going somewhere, kind of this stuff like that, that ancillary stuff that really doesn't count, like it just kind of fades away or goes into the background because you have this really clear purpose that you're working toward that's better or more exciting, or at least, you know, has the promise of giving life. So I like that a lot.
[00:28:38] And it kind of just makes me wonder how do we, what's that message like? How do we connect that with our congregations? What is that thing that is forward looking? And you always talk about the windshield, right? It's the biggest window of the car on purpose. And like, what's that future focus that we can latch onto and get excited about? And I don't know. I think some of this stuff robs us of that mission mindset. So it does.
[00:29:06] And I think that's where we land is how do you have a mission mindset with, as you engage the world around you, whether in person or online, because you can't share Christ with a culture you don't love. And when we attack culture or we retreat away from culture and have our little Christian bubble, it makes it harder to love culture. Now, loving culture doesn't mean condoning everything culture does or even liking everything that culture does. It means how do you bring the gospel to bear and the love of Jesus Christ with the culture around you? Yeah.
[00:29:37] And I just am encouraged by, always encouraged by what Jesus did in his interaction with the woman at the well. Yeah. He met her where she was. He spoke truth into her thirst and he offered himself. He offered love. Yeah. So good. So what would it look like for us online, you know, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, angry emoji, angry emoji.
[00:30:00] How do we show up meeting people where they are, speaking truth into thirst, offering love, figuring out how do we speak the truth in love? And if we feel like we can't, then maybe we're out of bounds with where we're supposed to be, like whatever that situation is. And what we remember when Thumper's dad told him, if you can't say nothing at all, it's not going to help. Right. That phrase haunted me through the words of my life. It did. No, it's right.
[00:30:30] It's like paying attention. What's going on in my heart right now? And why, why is this affecting me? And is this, how is this going to translate when somebody on the other side reads it? And what good is it going to do? And I think I love that verse, speak the truth in love. But there are so many people who abuse that verse and forget the love part of it. And they're like, well, Jesus wants us to tell the truth. Well, yeah. But it's like it's excuse to tee off on people. I'm just speaking the truth in love.
[00:30:57] And my love is letting them know that they're off track or whatever. I'm like, well, that's like saying with all due respect, with all due respect, bless your heart. But I'm married to a Southerner. So those things. Oh, yeah, there you go. So a fully formed gospel centered view of culture is neither attack nor retreat. It's gospel engagement. How do we bring the hope of the gospel to the world around us? So I call it hope scrolling. Hope scrolling. Let's hope scroll our lives. Let's start.
[00:31:27] How do we bring the hope of the gospel? It's coined the new phrase. Only click on things that are hopeful. Is that what you'd be? Yeah, don't make it. The conscious decision to look for gospel pathways to meet the sin broken world. Nicely done. I love it. So now that we got that fixed. We'll figure out how to fix cruise ships and why everybody gets sick. Oh, no, it's a man. Boy, the cruise industry is taken. Yeah, that's tough.
[00:31:54] And that's not taking lightly all the people that are sick and even have died, not just from Hantavirus, but Norovirus and all the things happening. Like, my goodness. Scary. Yeah, in some ways, there's things I wish I just didn't know because then I wouldn't have to be worried about them. I had to really kind of land the plane with all this. I had a conversation with my kids about the internet. And I was like, if you could go back and get to a point where you could prevent the internet from having been invented, would you want to do that?
[00:32:25] We were just kind of brainstorming and kind of talking about it. And there's a big part of me that's like, man, yeah, let's do that. And then as I'm doing that, I'm like, yeah, but I'm watching the Mariners game on my phone right now. And I just got my three emails that I don't have to like, figure out how to communicate with those people. I mean, there's so many good things about this tool, if we can see it that way.
[00:32:51] And so as we are talking through it that, you know, I think that I am hopeful because I do think as your conversation with Jason, was it Jason that you were talking to? Yeah. Yeah. And then, and same for me with my kids, it's like, I'm hopeful that they're going to have this figured out a little better because they, they've lived with it their whole lives. And when Will says to his buddies, let's go out and touch grass, I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, let's go play outside, but we're not going to say it that way, dad.
[00:33:20] Like they, like there's something about their, I think they're going to figure out some better boundaries, but they're going to also have to deal with some of the pitfalls and all of that. So anyway, I'm hopeful and I'm going to be hope scrolling with you. And I hope all the people listening will be doing the same. I love it. Well, hey everyone. Thanks for being with us. Really appreciate you and all that you're doing in the life of the church. It's been great talking with pastors and church leaders all over the country now and hearing about what's going on in their churches, where they are seeing hope or where they're
[00:33:49] kind of looking for help. And it's just a reminder, like we all are dealing with the same things. It's so easy to feel alone. And I hope this podcast is a way that you don't feel so alone. You feel a bit seen because we're all trying to figure it out. So thanks so much, everyone. Reach out to us anytime, Jason or Jesse at reclaimleader.com. And until next time, ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together.