[00:00:00] I think discipleship on some level, and this is where I started in our most recent sermon series,
[00:00:07] is with a... it's this fundamental question,
[00:00:10] who am I following and who am I becoming as a result of that?
[00:00:16] Welcome to Episode 339.
[00:00:18] Following Jesus is more than a series of Bible studies,
[00:00:21] it's an apprenticeship that has a goal in mind to become more like Jesus.
[00:00:26] Join us as we talk strategies to help your congregation understand the difference between believing and following.
[00:00:33] That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:35] Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast,
[00:00:42] we are two pastors in the trenches passionate about church health.
[00:00:46] So thanks for joining us today, I'm Jason Tucker here with Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:50] How's it going, Jesse?
[00:00:51] Jason, we're here, man, we're still doing it.
[00:00:54] We're still in the trenches, still in the trenches.
[00:00:56] We're still in the trenches.
[00:00:57] You know, I love it.
[00:00:58] What else would we do?
[00:00:59] You know, this is where we are called to be,
[00:01:02] and so many of you listening, you know, you're working hard,
[00:01:05] you're grinding things out in ministry in the life of the church,
[00:01:07] and it's where the Lord has you, it's where you're called to be.
[00:01:10] So we're rooting for you, we're rooting for each other.
[00:01:12] Jason and I was talking shop on either end of recording,
[00:01:15] and I hope you have something like this in your life,
[00:01:18] a conversation that's ongoing about leading and being a healthy church
[00:01:24] and doing all those kinds of things.
[00:01:25] So I love it, Jason.
[00:01:26] I'm glad we get to talk shop and we're talking discipleship
[00:01:29] in the life of the congregation.
[00:01:30] How do we do that well?
[00:01:32] And I love kind of where we've been talking about reframing it
[00:01:35] or helping people see it in some fresh ways
[00:01:38] in this season of the church.
[00:01:40] So looking forward to diving into more today.
[00:01:42] Yeah, and I feel like it's great.
[00:01:44] So the way that we record this podcast is, you know,
[00:01:47] we'll be on, we'll do some batch recording,
[00:01:49] but it's been a couple of weeks,
[00:01:50] so it's nice to get back into it.
[00:01:52] It's always good to have a break,
[00:01:54] but it's really great to get into Connect again.
[00:01:56] So last week we talked about developing
[00:01:58] a spiritual formation strategy in your church.
[00:02:01] Otherwise, we're really just, you know,
[00:02:03] like most of us in churches,
[00:02:05] we're kind of crossing our fingers
[00:02:07] and hoping they grow closer to Jesus,
[00:02:09] but that's not maybe the most effective strategy.
[00:02:13] And to really think about how are we aligning our resources
[00:02:16] in such a way that we're helping people
[00:02:18] along that path of discipleship?
[00:02:20] So we spoke a bit about that.
[00:02:22] If you missed that episode, if you're new with us,
[00:02:24] first of all, welcome.
[00:02:25] Glad that you're joining us today,
[00:02:27] but go back and listen to that.
[00:02:28] It was last week's episode 338.
[00:02:30] So today really largely is influenced
[00:02:35] by John Mark Comer's book,
[00:02:38] If Not Influenced, at least partially shaped
[00:02:41] because we've really gotten into it as a congregation
[00:02:43] called Practicing the Way.
[00:02:45] This is his follow-up to the ruthless elimination of hurry.
[00:02:47] And listen, man, I don't think we're big enough
[00:02:50] to get Comer to come on here.
[00:02:52] So we're just going to talk about his book.
[00:02:54] That's right. We missed that maybe a few years back
[00:02:56] and we could have gotten on that.
[00:02:58] Maybe, maybe. Yeah, he's too big now.
[00:03:00] He's like a number one bestseller.
[00:03:02] So anyway, the reason why I want to talk about this
[00:03:05] is because one of the things that we try to do
[00:03:07] in this podcast is to give you really practical solutions
[00:03:10] to big ideas.
[00:03:12] And I think his book is a really nice tool
[00:03:15] and there's kind of some things you could build off of that
[00:03:18] that we're currently doing here at Tower Hill
[00:03:21] that we have found to be really, really helpful
[00:03:23] for our congregation to understand or start to reframe
[00:03:26] what does it mean to follow Jesus?
[00:03:30] So I think discipleship on some level
[00:03:34] and this is where I started in our most recent sermon series
[00:03:38] is with a... It's this fundamental question
[00:03:41] who am I following
[00:03:44] and who am I becoming as a result of that?
[00:03:46] Yeah.
[00:03:48] Because the truth is we're all following someone, right?
[00:03:51] At any given moment we're following people intentionally
[00:03:55] who we think they've got some stuff figured out
[00:03:58] and we're there further down the line
[00:04:00] and it could be in any area of our lives and we're like, oh.
[00:04:02] Or it's maybe celebrity culture
[00:04:05] and we're following them because of our interest in them
[00:04:09] or there's I think probably more so
[00:04:12] is the people that we're unintentionally following
[00:04:14] is the bombardment of messages from companies and corporations
[00:04:17] and ad agencies and everything
[00:04:20] but we're all following someone
[00:04:22] and so the question is
[00:04:24] if I can identify who I'm following
[00:04:26] do I like who I'm becoming?
[00:04:28] Yeah.
[00:04:30] And I think most people would answer no
[00:04:32] that something's missing
[00:04:34] or something's not right
[00:04:36] and I think helping people to understand
[00:04:38] and feel that pain
[00:04:40] that there is a better way
[00:04:43] is something that's really important to touch on early
[00:04:46] when you're talking about spiritual formation.
[00:04:48] I don't know, what do you think about that?
[00:04:50] No, I think so.
[00:04:52] I think having a sense of what is it that we're moving toward
[00:04:55] or who, I love talking about our faith.
[00:04:57] We always say it's not, Christianity is not about a what
[00:05:00] it's about a who and who is Jesus
[00:05:03] who am I becoming as a follower of Jesus
[00:05:05] and growing into his likeness
[00:05:07] and seeing more of his character show up in my life
[00:05:10] seeing the transforming work of the Holy Spirit
[00:05:12] helping me grow towards maturity in Christ
[00:05:15] but I like the lane that you're going down
[00:05:18] is helping people to think in terms of
[00:05:20] the competing alternatives
[00:05:22] and sometimes we get into
[00:05:24] hyper spiritual language
[00:05:26] which is true and biblical
[00:05:28] and we need to do that without unpacking it
[00:05:30] to like the real lived experience
[00:05:32] of people and the implications of it
[00:05:34] so I like this idea
[00:05:36] helping people stop and go
[00:05:38] where am I going, who am I becoming
[00:05:40] who am I following and what's it going to lead to
[00:05:42] over time and do I need some course correction
[00:05:45] so having something of a framework
[00:05:47] to think of a person's own individual
[00:05:50] personal spiritual journey
[00:05:52] of course connected into a larger movement
[00:05:55] of the body of Christ but thinking
[00:05:57] you know who am I becoming in Christ
[00:05:59] and how is my faith shaping me or not
[00:06:01] and are there other things that are doing it instead?
[00:06:04] Yeah, it's like just recently preached on
[00:06:06] the woman at the well
[00:06:08] and as I was reading it again
[00:06:10] it's just so amazing
[00:06:12] I'm always amazed at how the Lord gives you different insights
[00:06:14] every time you read the same thing
[00:06:16] you know
[00:06:18] but I was thinking about his whole offer
[00:06:20] to her of living water
[00:06:22] and for me as I was reading it again
[00:06:24] of course this is like maybe a third level down
[00:06:27] reading but I was thinking
[00:06:29] the whole point of
[00:06:31] the difference between having to go back to the well
[00:06:34] which I think could represent the world
[00:06:36] culture
[00:06:38] you're always going to be thirsty and it's unsatiable
[00:06:40] you're just
[00:06:42] unquenchable like you just have to keep going back
[00:06:44] going back going back and the living water
[00:06:46] Jesus gives is something that
[00:06:48] that wells up in you
[00:06:50] and I feel like in a way
[00:06:52] that's the fundamental decision
[00:06:54] when it comes to discipleship
[00:06:56] and that is
[00:06:58] where are you going to get your water from right
[00:07:00] where are you going to get your life from
[00:07:02] and there's a decision to be made
[00:07:04] in that and that decision
[00:07:06] minute by minute
[00:07:08] I'm going to be satisfied by
[00:07:10] I might have to come back to the well and like
[00:07:12] no give me this so I don't have to thirst
[00:07:14] give me what lasts, yeah give me what's lasting
[00:07:16] yeah I love it
[00:07:18] I think that's really good and I think
[00:07:20] unfortunately too maybe across
[00:07:22] the last couple of decades
[00:07:24] in the life of the church we've kind of
[00:07:26] short circuited the discipleship vision
[00:07:28] to like
[00:07:30] see little things just do these couple of things
[00:07:32] or learn about this thing or that thing
[00:07:34] and we've forgotten that it's a whole life
[00:07:36] thing Jesus in all of life
[00:07:38] and that it's okay if it takes
[00:07:40] time we're in such a hurry
[00:07:42] to do things and to get
[00:07:44] to the finish line in things and yet
[00:07:46] it's this lifelong process of growing
[00:07:48] and developing and maturing and all
[00:07:50] of that and so one of the
[00:07:52] things that we've been thinking about here is
[00:07:54] instead of like taking in
[00:07:56] doing like a short discipleship course
[00:07:58] we're like what if we do a two year
[00:08:00] catechism now that's I don't know
[00:08:02] that's a little extreme or something but
[00:08:04] sounds very presbyterian
[00:08:06] yes very presbyterian thing to do
[00:08:08] but the slow build of
[00:08:10] faith over time and setting course
[00:08:12] heading there and in going to that life
[00:08:14] giving water rather than just
[00:08:16] the stuff that satisfies for a moment
[00:08:18] so I think it's a really good image Jason
[00:08:20] yeah so
[00:08:22] I think you know when you talk to your congregation
[00:08:24] about this and most of this
[00:08:26] me is in the context of a sermon it's
[00:08:28] the best opportunity I have to do that
[00:08:30] is I you know people's
[00:08:32] heads are going in the same direction and they're like
[00:08:34] okay I'm
[00:08:36] tracking with you but then
[00:08:38] what does it mean to follow Jesus and
[00:08:40] I think this is where
[00:08:42] we assume way too much
[00:08:44] yeah and over time
[00:08:46] we've we've unintentionally
[00:08:48] created disciples who don't
[00:08:50] know what discipleship is
[00:08:52] I mean
[00:08:54] listen it's been a slow build to get
[00:08:56] to where we are so I'm not saying pastors
[00:08:58] it's our fault but
[00:09:00] it's the church's fault
[00:09:02] it really is because most people fear to
[00:09:04] ask people in your church
[00:09:06] to define this
[00:09:08] discipleship most of them would say it's some sort of
[00:09:10] knowledge
[00:09:12] but knowledge alone doesn't produce
[00:09:14] results
[00:09:16] listening and doing how do I know
[00:09:18] knowledge alone does not produce results
[00:09:20] just look at the choices I make when I go out to eat
[00:09:22] I know it's healthy for me
[00:09:24] that's right
[00:09:26] knowing it's really your best order of salad
[00:09:28] without bacon
[00:09:30] but I do so
[00:09:32] knowledge has to be
[00:09:34] accompanied with action and here's
[00:09:36] the sad part is that
[00:09:38] so many times I'll be in
[00:09:40] pastoral conversations with
[00:09:42] people who've been in the church
[00:09:44] 70-80 years
[00:09:46] and they have a loved one die
[00:09:48] and there's like no
[00:09:50] actual faith to hold on to
[00:09:52] and they feel lost
[00:09:54] and they feel like
[00:09:56] you know
[00:09:58] doubting that they even have faith
[00:10:00] and to me and I think
[00:10:02] in part because they grew up at a time
[00:10:04] when it felt like church
[00:10:06] discipleship meant faithful volunteering
[00:10:08] or faithful attendance and volunteerism
[00:10:10] and
[00:10:12] it's not enough
[00:10:14] because those might be byproducts
[00:10:16] of following as we know
[00:10:18] that's not the same thing as following
[00:10:20] helping our congregation understand
[00:10:22] this is what I think the book does really well
[00:10:24] is he talks about discipleship as an apprenticeship program
[00:10:26] yeah
[00:10:28] disciples train
[00:10:30] in order to do
[00:10:32] it's like medical school students
[00:10:34] they're not going to be a student paying a jillion dollars to learn
[00:10:36] eventually
[00:10:38] you're learning so you can go practice
[00:10:40] that's right
[00:10:42] and this is the Christian way
[00:10:44] that our rabbi wants us
[00:10:46] to learn and to practice
[00:10:48] to get out there
[00:10:50] and practice and so and I that's really the big
[00:10:52] thing
[00:10:54] or the big shift
[00:10:56] that we have to try to help make
[00:10:58] in our people's understanding
[00:11:00] that they probably know plenty enough
[00:11:02] right they don't need Bible
[00:11:04] another Bible study
[00:11:06] they just need to do it
[00:11:08] see what happens find God's faithfulness as you
[00:11:10] apply it and see where it goes
[00:11:12] I think in unfortunately
[00:11:14] I would say
[00:11:16] Marine View has been part of this culture too
[00:11:18] in some ways we
[00:11:20] inadvertently have
[00:11:22] thought of
[00:11:24] and measured maybe the wrong things
[00:11:26] we kind of told people to your point
[00:11:28] that discipleship is faithful
[00:11:30] attendance and regular giving
[00:11:32] yeah like that's what we count
[00:11:34] that's what we measure that's what we go oh
[00:11:36] the health of the church how many people are coming
[00:11:38] and do we have enough money to pay
[00:11:40] for everything and do some new things
[00:11:42] we got to count things and we got to be
[00:11:44] wise with our budgets but if we're saying
[00:11:46] that if we're not looking for other
[00:11:48] qualitative things in the life of the
[00:11:50] believer like how are you engaging
[00:11:52] your faith outside of the church
[00:11:54] and helping people think in those terms
[00:11:56] or maybe even measuring
[00:11:58] have a good friend here in the Tacoma
[00:12:00] area that they were trying to
[00:12:02] do these mission measures
[00:12:04] how are you doing at living on mission
[00:12:06] outside of the church and so they were
[00:12:08] asking people to report the number of
[00:12:10] times that they try to practice
[00:12:12] some aspect of their faith or
[00:12:14] the mission of Jesus in the world during
[00:12:16] the week and it was really tricky and a
[00:12:18] few people checked in most people didn't
[00:12:20] and so they were but they were they were trying
[00:12:22] to think of how do we help people think
[00:12:24] beyond just did I show up to church
[00:12:26] and did I serve in some way or give
[00:12:28] in some way to the church and thinking
[00:12:30] of their faith as a lived experience
[00:12:32] outside in which they
[00:12:34] do the apprentice thing they learn they grow
[00:12:36] they they get to sit at the feet
[00:12:38] of the master and then they get to go and
[00:12:40] try and put into action in their own life
[00:12:42] so I do think that's a healthy
[00:12:44] thing to get us thinking
[00:12:46] beyond the laws of the church
[00:12:48] and the live faith outside but
[00:12:50] that's a tough transition for some people to make
[00:12:52] when they've been working for a long time
[00:12:54] it is and that's why
[00:12:56] I think a book like Comer's
[00:12:58] book is a nice tool for your congregation
[00:13:00] so he's
[00:13:02] the way that he talks about it's really good he says
[00:13:04] well okay let's look at what did it mean to be
[00:13:06] a disciple in the time of Jesus
[00:13:08] which is always a great place to start
[00:13:10] let's define let's start a definition there
[00:13:12] and he said that there are always three goals
[00:13:14] of an apprentice who is
[00:13:16] studying under a rabbi
[00:13:18] first goal is be with your rabbi
[00:13:20] like goal number one
[00:13:22] live with do life with them
[00:13:24] like eat breakfast
[00:13:26] with them do like follow them around
[00:13:28] where they go because
[00:13:30] you're going to learn number two
[00:13:32] how to be like your rabbi
[00:13:34] the goal of the disciple
[00:13:36] or the apprentice was do they
[00:13:38] wanted to be
[00:13:40] mirror images of their rabbi
[00:13:42] and you know I once heard
[00:13:44] somebody speaking on this kind of saying
[00:13:46] and I don't know if it's true but always stuck with me
[00:13:48] how back then they
[00:13:50] wanted to imitate their rabbi so much
[00:13:52] that they even pick up little
[00:13:54] idiosyncrasies that their rabbis would have
[00:13:56] like certain ways that they
[00:13:58] moved or talked to because they wanted to be
[00:14:00] a copy of them
[00:14:02] like a true emulation
[00:14:04] yeah so that imitations
[00:14:06] the highest form of flattery right
[00:14:08] I think something to that
[00:14:10] and then third and this is
[00:14:12] where I think church
[00:14:14] people in America get stuck is then do as
[00:14:16] your rabbi did
[00:14:18] like let your behavior spill out
[00:14:20] of your belief
[00:14:22] and I think those are really nice ways of trying
[00:14:24] to reframe for people
[00:14:26] what it look
[00:14:28] what does it mean to follow Jesus we got to spend time
[00:14:30] with him how do you spend time with him he go through spiritual practices
[00:14:32] you find ways to spend time
[00:14:34] with him you're not going to get
[00:14:36] to know him
[00:14:38] or be like him
[00:14:40] if you're not spending time with him and
[00:14:42] then therefore you're not going to know
[00:14:44] what to do like your rabbi
[00:14:46] and the fact that he's empowered you
[00:14:48] to do it so I think
[00:14:50] it's a nice way to get
[00:14:52] it certainly been working well for us
[00:14:54] getting people to think oh okay
[00:14:56] that actually is different
[00:14:58] than even what I had in my head
[00:15:00] yeah and I think
[00:15:02] the challenge is to move people from the
[00:15:04] vision that they had or the idea that they had
[00:15:06] something new without
[00:15:08] necessarily stomping all over
[00:15:10] what they've understood before
[00:15:12] and I think sometimes when I've talked
[00:15:14] about discipleship I've unintentionally
[00:15:16] made it into this like here's what real Christians do
[00:15:18] and here's what the rest of you that are not
[00:15:20] very good have done
[00:15:22] but giving this more positive framework
[00:15:24] for take a step from where
[00:15:26] you are closer into this vision
[00:15:28] of discipleship that looks
[00:15:30] like the original disciples
[00:15:32] of Jesus and wouldn't that be exciting and fun
[00:15:34] to get to see that and experience that
[00:15:36] in your faith so how do we
[00:15:38] help people catch that vision and
[00:15:40] close the gap between
[00:15:42] knowing and doing because
[00:15:44] I think I'm with you there's been plenty of time
[00:15:46] we're talking about be a disciple
[00:15:48] of Jesus then that
[00:15:50] learns to feed yourself
[00:15:52] in your faith and then teach somebody
[00:15:54] to do the same thing people not
[00:15:56] along or get maybe get excited for a moment
[00:15:58] but how do we help them actually
[00:16:00] begin to do it
[00:16:02] and see the fruit of it in their own lives
[00:16:04] because I think that's for me sometimes
[00:16:06] is the gap I know how to talk about
[00:16:08] I know how to preach on it I know how to
[00:16:10] talk about the vision but
[00:16:12] where's the follow through
[00:16:14] so there's actually one of the ideas
[00:16:16] I'm going to get to is an idea
[00:16:18] from practicing the way but I think first
[00:16:20] of all is to help them understand
[00:16:22] that
[00:16:24] if I were to try
[00:16:26] to run a marathon next week
[00:16:28] and I have not
[00:16:30] run a mile in a while it's
[00:16:32] not going to go well for me so
[00:16:34] to be reminded that this is a process
[00:16:36] that
[00:16:38] is gradual
[00:16:40] sometime you know it's like bodily
[00:16:42] growth is a process
[00:16:44] and sometimes you go through growth spurts
[00:16:46] right you have times when it
[00:16:48] feels like something goes on your life you have an experience of God
[00:16:50] and it up levels
[00:16:52] your faith but most of the time
[00:16:54] it's a grind
[00:16:56] it's a slow crawl so
[00:16:58] it's helping them first to see that
[00:17:00] to give themselves permission to go slow
[00:17:02] but also it's okay
[00:17:04] then what would it look like for you
[00:17:06] to run your first mile
[00:17:08] what are some of the things
[00:17:10] to do
[00:17:12] and I like Comer's definition
[00:17:14] of spiritual formation on page 73
[00:17:16] he says spiritual formation in the way of Jesus
[00:17:18] is the process of being
[00:17:20] formed into people of love
[00:17:22] in Christ
[00:17:24] the process of being formed in the people
[00:17:26] of love in Christ so
[00:17:28] the goal of spiritual formation
[00:17:30] is I mean notice it's a process
[00:17:32] so it takes time and it's a process
[00:17:34] of being formed not forming yourself
[00:17:36] it's not if I do
[00:17:38] all the things then I'm gonna
[00:17:40] right it's not self-activization
[00:17:42] through your efforts
[00:17:44] right it's am I open
[00:17:46] am I surrendering
[00:17:48] to what Jesus
[00:17:50] wants to do in me
[00:17:52] so how do we help them do that
[00:17:54] I think it's helping them understand
[00:17:56] that what apprentices are supposed to do
[00:17:58] is we have to arrange
[00:18:00] our lives around
[00:18:02] our following of Jesus
[00:18:04] much like you arrange your lives
[00:18:06] you know don't you love it when like young couples
[00:18:08] come to you and like they get
[00:18:10] they're newly married and like yeah we want to have kids some day
[00:18:12] but you know we're just not ready so
[00:18:14] sure we have all these things in a row and you just
[00:18:16] sort of like yeah you're never gonna be ready but
[00:18:18] just your news five
[00:18:20] but you want to break their bubble or anything
[00:18:22] because you have this baby
[00:18:24] and it you arrange your life
[00:18:26] around the baby and it's super inconvenient
[00:18:28] it messes with all your scheduling
[00:18:30] but you do it joyfully
[00:18:32] because of what you receive
[00:18:34] so what would it look like
[00:18:36] and try to get really granular
[00:18:38] with people is what would it look like
[00:18:40] for you
[00:18:42] to start arranging your life
[00:18:44] around your following and maybe it's just
[00:18:46] and I got this
[00:18:48] from a buddy
[00:18:50] at the national conference I was just at
[00:18:54] and
[00:18:56] it's 15 minutes in your favorite chair
[00:18:58] what would it look like
[00:19:00] 15 minutes in your favorite chair
[00:19:02] to do what
[00:19:04] I don't know
[00:19:06] pray read a devotional
[00:19:08] call a spiritual friend
[00:19:10] and have a conversation
[00:19:12] there are lots of other spirits
[00:19:14] but just 15 minutes in your favorite chair
[00:19:16] could be the best first step
[00:19:18] for you to start arranging your life
[00:19:22] around following Jesus
[00:19:24] so I think for me
[00:19:26] feeling that gap for them is helping them
[00:19:28] give them ideas because I think most people
[00:19:30] that's where they're stuck they don't know
[00:19:32] because they've not seen it modeled
[00:19:34] mostly
[00:19:36] of what it even looks like
[00:19:38] and to say well I could do that
[00:19:40] I think is the goal
[00:19:42] yeah I think you're breaking it down
[00:19:44] into practical steps for people
[00:19:46] to go oh I can try
[00:19:48] I can do I can and moving them
[00:19:50] from this is for super Christians
[00:19:52] or people who really are serious about their faith
[00:19:54] to something then that can fit
[00:19:56] and be careful with that but
[00:19:58] can fit into the rhythm of my own life
[00:20:00] like I can see how it could work
[00:20:02] versus I don't
[00:20:04] I've already got so many things
[00:20:06] how do I find that time
[00:20:08] and as much as that's maybe
[00:20:10] gets things out of order
[00:20:12] I think people are thinking in those terms a lot of times
[00:20:14] like I just it sounds like one more thing to do
[00:20:16] are you giving more to do
[00:20:18] and until they get to experience the life
[00:20:20] giving aspects of this way
[00:20:24] we got to give them some practical tools
[00:20:26] to begin to inch toward it
[00:20:28] yeah so
[00:20:30] I think that's the secret to discipleship
[00:20:32] I actually think it's a secret to a lot of things
[00:20:34] it's a secret to health, secret to weight loss
[00:20:36] is how do you bake it into your everyday life
[00:20:40] not how do you add a bunch of things
[00:20:42] that you don't have time to add
[00:20:44] how do you rearrange your life
[00:20:46] in such a way
[00:20:48] that you're able to bake it in
[00:20:50] so I want to get real practical here
[00:20:52] pastors maybe you're wondering
[00:20:54] hey where do we start what do we do
[00:20:56] I'm just going to give you a way there's lots of things you could do
[00:20:58] but this is what we're doing at tower hill
[00:21:00] what we've been doing over the last couple of months
[00:21:02] and I'll just call it one one one
[00:21:04] one sermon series
[00:21:06] one small group
[00:21:08] and one serving opportunity
[00:21:10] all at the same time
[00:21:12] or close together so that it's a thing
[00:21:14] it's over a series of weeks
[00:21:16] you're doing some teaching
[00:21:18] you're helping do some reframing
[00:21:20] you're getting them in community
[00:21:22] because Jesus came and called
[00:21:24] disciples not disciple
[00:21:26] right it's communities are really important part of discipleship
[00:21:28] and then how do you
[00:21:30] put some action in
[00:21:32] okay and now you're going to serve in this way
[00:21:34] it could be inside the church outside the church
[00:21:36] local organization
[00:21:38] picking up trash whatever
[00:21:40] but I think one one one would be
[00:21:42] a simple place pastors
[00:21:44] to start so
[00:21:46] number one get them thinking
[00:21:48] and I think sermon series
[00:21:50] preaching series are great for that
[00:21:52] you can do a series on spiritual practices
[00:21:54] you got nine weeks all there if you go with
[00:21:56] what Comer calls the big nine
[00:21:58] things kind of funny but you know
[00:22:00] Sabbath prayer fasting
[00:22:02] solitude scripture community
[00:22:04] generosity service witness
[00:22:06] do a sermon series on
[00:22:08] those give them some
[00:22:10] exercises to do
[00:22:12] right try to do that in your small groups
[00:22:14] that's one way to do it we did
[00:22:16] a sermon series on spiritual
[00:22:18] practices I'm sure every pastor has done a series on that
[00:22:20] dust it off
[00:22:22] you know you have to reinvent the wheel
[00:22:24] but maybe you want to hit it again
[00:22:26] if you haven't done it in a while
[00:22:28] you can
[00:22:30] you can preach through Comer's book
[00:22:32] we've used Comer's book
[00:22:34] I like using the book when I can
[00:22:36] because it's something people
[00:22:38] can kind of get into and take home
[00:22:40] and now they're reading
[00:22:42] and they're listening to this sermon
[00:22:44] and it's all sort of like
[00:22:46] the same language the same
[00:22:48] overlap a lot of shared touch points
[00:22:50] letter sort of
[00:22:52] re reaffirming
[00:22:54] or like you know just
[00:22:56] I don't know that redundancy
[00:22:58] actually helps people remember and take it forward
[00:23:00] yeah or
[00:23:02] you know last week we talked about
[00:23:04] another way framing it would be
[00:23:06] what are three goals of a disciple
[00:23:08] could be possibly trust Jesus
[00:23:10] as their savior no Jesus as their
[00:23:12] friend and obey Jesus as Lord there's
[00:23:14] a three part sermon series
[00:23:16] right there so there's a lot of things
[00:23:18] that you can do
[00:23:20] and I am going to offer this
[00:23:24] I just did this sermon series
[00:23:26] called finding your way
[00:23:28] and we used Comer's
[00:23:30] book and scripture
[00:23:32] and you know all that together
[00:23:34] I will make those slides available
[00:23:36] to any pastor that wants it if you think
[00:23:38] it's helpful for you you do not have to
[00:23:40] give me credit so
[00:23:42] but if you go to reclaim leader.com
[00:23:44] slash sermons
[00:23:46] it'll take you to a link and
[00:23:48] you can download those things and
[00:23:50] you know if it helps you it's a
[00:23:52] five part sermon series I just did
[00:23:54] and maybe it'll give you spark some ideas
[00:23:56] and things for you as well
[00:23:58] but just trying to give you something practical
[00:24:00] hang on to it. I love it Jason I think
[00:24:02] sometimes even if it's not a one to one
[00:24:04] it just inspires you to be thinking in those terms
[00:24:06] so I love it.
[00:24:08] So then number two get them connecting
[00:24:10] so get them in
[00:24:12] community so practicing
[00:24:14] the way here's the really good thing about this
[00:24:16] book is that in the back of the book
[00:24:18] it's got the link and resources for
[00:24:20] the eight week group study it's all free
[00:24:22] they have
[00:24:24] you can go
[00:24:26] deeper and you can do a study on
[00:24:28] the nine spiritual practices that they talk
[00:24:30] about and they have this tool again all
[00:24:32] free called a rule of life
[00:24:34] builder where he ends up in his book
[00:24:36] is that we all should kind of the saint
[00:24:38] Benedict model of creating a rule of life
[00:24:40] and he
[00:24:42] there's a tool to help walk your
[00:24:44] congregation through it again all free I think
[00:24:46] it's a really good idea
[00:24:48] to utilize stuff like that most of us
[00:24:50] we don't have time to create
[00:24:52] a whole new
[00:24:54] tool for people to use so what
[00:24:56] tools can we find and use that are good
[00:24:58] ones so that's a good one. Yeah that's
[00:25:00] awesome. You could get them doing I know
[00:25:02] our church has been rooted did you guys
[00:25:04] do that one rooted? I can't remember
[00:25:06] I don't think so actually. That's a good
[00:25:08] discipleship a small group opportunity
[00:25:10] even gosh even if you're doing starting
[00:25:12] point yeah
[00:25:14] or alpha even I mean there's
[00:25:16] a way whatever your
[00:25:18] way is sort of doesn't matter but just get
[00:25:20] them in community talking about
[00:25:22] discipleship. Yeah.
[00:25:24] And then lastly number three get them
[00:25:26] doing right have your groups
[00:25:28] or group do something
[00:25:30] that involves serving and I think
[00:25:32] it's just as broad as
[00:25:34] that needs to be so
[00:25:36] maybe it's a specific call to action
[00:25:38] like there's a need in the food pantry
[00:25:40] we got to stock the shelves for the
[00:25:42] summer so have
[00:25:44] your group stock the shelves right like
[00:25:46] find something to
[00:25:48] do where you're putting the discipleship into
[00:25:50] action. Yeah don't just leave it on the
[00:25:52] shelf to gather dust let's go and live it
[00:25:54] and see meet God there and have got to meet
[00:25:56] us there I think that's really good
[00:25:58] so again you're creating
[00:26:00] you made it this kind of 3111
[00:26:02] you know I like it
[00:26:04] but what you're doing is creating some
[00:26:06] really practical ways for people to
[00:26:08] to take action around
[00:26:10] this important thing called discipleship
[00:26:12] and I think it's just really
[00:26:14] helpful to go from
[00:26:16] idea mode or imparting
[00:26:18] knowledge mode to
[00:26:20] a really clear pathway to implement
[00:26:22] something and grow from there
[00:26:24] so I think that's it and I'm sure
[00:26:26] people listen you know like maybe you're doing
[00:26:28] some awesome things or maybe
[00:26:30] you're not maybe there's you know you feel
[00:26:32] like the best discipleship that has happened
[00:26:34] for your people happened in another church
[00:26:36] somewhere else and then they showed up at your church
[00:26:38] I don't know but what if the story
[00:26:40] changed to that when people come to
[00:26:42] your congregation that they're going to be
[00:26:44] challenged to not just maintain
[00:26:46] the status quo in their faith but to really
[00:26:48] grow by learning
[00:26:50] and living and create
[00:26:52] a framework for it I think it's fun to get to be
[00:26:54] creative around how are we going to encourage
[00:26:56] people to grow into the likeness of
[00:26:58] Christ and to do it in ways that are
[00:27:00] appropriate for our various contexts where we are
[00:27:02] yeah yeah so
[00:27:04] anyway hope this is helpful pastors as
[00:27:06] you're thinking about spiritual formation in your church
[00:27:08] trying to give you some ideas because I think
[00:27:10] my goodness do we need our churches
[00:27:12] to be filled with disciples right
[00:27:14] I mean really the pressure kind of off I mean
[00:27:16] things are a mess in our world
[00:27:18] people need something to hold on to
[00:27:20] and they're longing for it and we're going to meet
[00:27:22] them there with the gospel that transforms
[00:27:24] them in our world and I love it Jason
[00:27:26] I was writing down a few notes as you were talking
[00:27:28] of just sparking ideas of things that I
[00:27:30] want to work on at Marine View or things that
[00:27:32] we need to to kind of come back
[00:27:34] to or revitalize and so hope
[00:27:36] I mean isn't that the goal of our conversations
[00:27:38] is to spark the minds of our
[00:27:40] listeners and one another to
[00:27:42] encourage each other keep going
[00:27:44] keep dreaming about what God can do in the lives of
[00:27:46] your real people that are trying their best
[00:27:48] to live out their faith and let's give them this fresh
[00:27:50] framework for discipleship
[00:27:52] and how they can grow
[00:27:54] amen alright hey everyone
[00:27:56] thanks so much for listening we'll catch you back here
[00:27:58] next week we're continuing on spiritual formation
[00:28:00] and until next time
[00:28:02] as we always say ministry is hard
[00:28:04] it is so much better when we do it together