[00:00:00] People don't call me to say, hey, can you remind me why the New Testament is reliable?
[00:00:04] They call me because they're having a problem in life and they're kind of wondering, where's
[00:00:10] this leading?
[00:00:11] They're wondering, is this the first domino in a series of dominoes that don't lead
[00:00:15] to a good place?
[00:00:16] Welcome to Episode 342.
[00:00:19] So are you into true crime?
[00:00:20] Then you've probably already seen our guest, Jay Warner Wallace.
[00:00:24] He's often seen on Dateline as a cold cased investigator.
[00:00:28] Today we're talking with him about his latest book, The Truth in True Crime and it may surprise
[00:00:33] you.
[00:00:34] That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:36] Hey everyone, welcome to Episode 342 of The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:45] I'm Jason Tucker here with Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:47] We're just two pastors who are passionate about revitalization and change in our churches,
[00:00:52] working hard, slogging away.
[00:00:54] It is good to be here.
[00:00:56] Jesse, how you doing?
[00:00:57] I'm doing great, Jason.
[00:00:59] We were talking shop before we hit record.
[00:01:02] You know, changing the church, it's giving people loss at a pace they can handle.
[00:01:09] So anyway, I had a few conversations today even just things we're trying and working
[00:01:14] on and I know we're all in the trenches trying to do our best to lead and flourishing
[00:01:19] churches, helping them be healthy and helping people get to know and follow Jesus.
[00:01:22] Man, sometimes it's a mess but hopefully we're making progress, right?
[00:01:27] Hopefully.
[00:01:29] So it just depends on the day that you ask me if we're making progress or not.
[00:01:33] But you know, I mean this is why we're doing this podcast is because if you don't have
[00:01:39] anybody to talk this through, you feel very lonely or you feel like am I crazy?
[00:01:44] Am I the only one seeing this thing?
[00:01:45] Am I the only one dealing with this problem?
[00:01:48] Because I don't know, pastors aren't super transparent with one another about what
[00:01:51] they're going through or even will they reach out to have a conversation about
[00:01:56] it?
[00:01:57] I don't know if it's pride or fear or whatever but it just is.
[00:02:01] So hopefully this is a lane not just for Jesse and I to talk shop but for all of us to think
[00:02:06] about how do we think about these things?
[00:02:09] How do we help a church to move forward?
[00:02:11] Maybe a historic church has been around over 100 years or maybe a church that I took
[00:02:16] over from a pastor that was there for 35 years and everybody accidentally calls
[00:02:21] me his name, you know?
[00:02:22] Like, how do we do this?
[00:02:24] How do we revitalize?
[00:02:25] So hopefully this is helpful to you.
[00:02:27] Yeah, I agree, Jason.
[00:02:28] I think we're all just doing our best but at the same time there's something going on
[00:02:32] that we want to be a part of that God's doing in our communities and we're called to our
[00:02:36] churches to lead and to serve with our gifts and abilities and passions alongside other
[00:02:41] great folks.
[00:02:42] And so hopefully over these, I don't know how many years it's been now since we
[00:02:45] first hit...
[00:02:46] Been a while.
[00:02:47] Hopefully there's been a few helpful things in there and sometimes it's been our
[00:02:51] guests that I think have been the most helpful.
[00:02:53] I'm not sure.
[00:02:54] I think we hit on something sometimes.
[00:02:55] But a lot of times it's the people that we have the privilege and opportunity to connect
[00:02:59] with and to hear what they're working on and doing.
[00:03:02] That just is encouraging or helps us think in a new way or gives us another tool and
[00:03:06] a tool belt.
[00:03:07] And today we have a guest on.
[00:03:09] I can't wait to get to share him with you and what he's been working on.
[00:03:13] So why don't you tell us a little bit about who we're interviewing today?
[00:03:15] Yeah, so any true crime fans out there or any dateline fan or unsolved crimes
[00:03:22] fans out there, we got your guy.
[00:03:24] Jay Warner Wallace.
[00:03:25] He is the most featured expert on Dateline when it comes to cold cases.
[00:03:31] He was the detective for many years, cold case detective, came to know Jesus Christ
[00:03:36] in his 30s and then started writing books about how to have sort of a forensic
[00:03:43] investigative lens through and his experience as a cold case investigator
[00:03:50] and how that kind of connects with a faith in Jesus Christ.
[00:03:53] And he's very much into apologetics.
[00:03:56] He's an adjunct professor for apologetics.
[00:03:58] And that's definitely been his lane, but he's just came out of the new book
[00:04:02] that I think is really interesting because I'm not going to give it away.
[00:04:07] But I do think that it's not just true crime.
[00:04:09] It's also spiritual formation or discipleship, which is the lane
[00:04:13] we've been camping out in for the last few weeks.
[00:04:15] Yeah, so getting to hear a little bit of some of his experience now thinking
[00:04:18] about the how does where does this intersect with our real life and real
[00:04:21] faith and conversations with people?
[00:04:24] Where does the gospel speak into the real
[00:04:25] expenses, experiences of their life to help them flourish for their good
[00:04:29] the way that God intended them.
[00:04:30] And something of the surprise of the gospel is, wow, this actually makes
[00:04:34] sense for my real life in a real way in a good way.
[00:04:38] So anyway, we're going to get into all that so we won't spoil the whole thing.
[00:04:41] But yeah, glad to have him back on the podcast today.
[00:04:45] Yeah.
[00:04:45] So before we turn over to the interview, just a reminder,
[00:04:48] everyone, hey, if you if you could leave us a rating or review where you listen
[00:04:52] to your podcast that helps people to find us and the more people find us,
[00:04:57] the more we're able to kind of get the word out and hopefully help as many
[00:04:59] churches as we can.
[00:05:00] So leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you listen and reach out to us.
[00:05:04] If you have any questions or if you have ideas for episode Lord knows
[00:05:07] two full time passers need ideas.
[00:05:10] He has sent us an email, Jason or Jesse at ReclaimLeader.com.
[00:05:15] So here we go.
[00:05:16] Let's go to our interview with Jay Warner Wallace.
[00:05:19] Well, Jay Warner Wallace is a dateline featured and award winning cold case
[00:05:23] homicide detective, popular national speaker, adjunct professor of apologetics
[00:05:29] and bestselling author.
[00:05:30] He continues to consult on cold case investigations while serving as
[00:05:34] a senior fellow at the Colson Center for Christian worldview.
[00:05:37] Jay Warner became a Christ follower at the age of 35 after investigating
[00:05:41] the claims of the New Testament gospels using his skillset as a detective.
[00:05:46] So cool.
[00:05:47] He eventually earned a master's degree in theological studies from Gateway
[00:05:50] Seminary.
[00:05:51] He provides his readers and audiences with the tools they need to
[00:05:54] investigate the claims of Christianity and make it convincing case for
[00:05:58] the truth of the Christian worldview.
[00:06:01] In his new book, The Truth in True Crime, What Investigating Death
[00:06:05] teaches us about the meaning of life.
[00:06:07] Wallace explores the clues lying behind our human nature as
[00:06:10] he uncovers 15 life truths gleaned from both contemporary murder
[00:06:14] investigations and ancient biblical wisdom.
[00:06:16] How's that for a combo?
[00:06:18] Let's welcome back to the podcast Jay Warner Wallace.
[00:06:21] Well, hey, thanks for having me.
[00:06:22] I appreciate this kind of a weird combo, huh?
[00:06:24] I saw that it was it was trending like in Christians self-improvement
[00:06:30] and serial killers true accounts and Christian apologetics all at
[00:06:35] the same time.
[00:06:36] And I thought that was a weird combo.
[00:06:37] But yeah, that's one of one, I think.
[00:06:40] Exactly right.
[00:06:40] You've created your own genre.
[00:06:42] Yeah, I'd put pretty much.
[00:06:43] But I mean, a lot of this is stuff that you and you guys know
[00:06:46] this, right?
[00:06:46] Because so much of leadership is biblical, whether you even know
[00:06:50] it or not, whether you've accepted those principles or
[00:06:52] found them there.
[00:06:54] So you can learn a lot about human nature and you can confirm
[00:06:57] it by way of study and research, modern research, all of
[00:07:00] that.
[00:07:01] But then you'll typically going to find that there's
[00:07:03] probably something that really is nothing new.
[00:07:05] It's something that was on the pages of the New Testament.
[00:07:08] If you had read your Bible, you probably would have already
[00:07:10] known this about human nature.
[00:07:12] And that's what I was discovering even before I was a
[00:07:14] Christian, before I really even kind of connected those dots.
[00:07:18] You know, issues surrounding leadership, for example,
[00:07:20] surrounding just parenting, which isn't, of course, an
[00:07:23] important aspect of leadership.
[00:07:24] So a lot of this is the stuff that you just learned
[00:07:27] watching people mess up and they're all cautionary tales
[00:07:31] that you think, oh, okay, I can kind of see where he went
[00:07:34] wrong there.
[00:07:35] And sadly, a lot of what I'm looking at is male suspects,
[00:07:39] not all, but a lot of them are.
[00:07:41] And so you can learn a lot about human nature by watching
[00:07:44] both the suspect and the victim and the victim's family.
[00:07:48] I'll bet you are a master people watcher and I bet
[00:07:51] you can't shut it off.
[00:07:53] Well, you're right.
[00:07:53] And I can't, what I can't shut off is the kind of
[00:07:57] analysis of words.
[00:07:58] I mean, because so much of the work that I did, you
[00:08:01] know, I wasn't there to see the crime.
[00:08:03] I'm there to talk to the guy after he has allegedly
[00:08:06] committed the crime.
[00:08:07] So a lot of the stuff that we become good at is in trying
[00:08:11] to figure out, is this going to lie or?
[00:08:13] And if he is, where's he lying?
[00:08:15] So so much of that is in this lot and sadly, a lot
[00:08:18] of innate skepticism.
[00:08:20] But what I discovered is that there's so many
[00:08:22] different categories of things that we as humans
[00:08:26] could do, could just tweak slightly.
[00:08:28] That would be like a great life hack, you know, a
[00:08:31] great rule for life if we only would.
[00:08:34] And some of those things, I think, like I say, they're
[00:08:36] all on scripture, but some of them are made more
[00:08:39] obvious, I think in those moments when someone's
[00:08:43] been pushed to do something they wouldn't otherwise
[00:08:45] do.
[00:08:47] And that's a lot of what I'm investigating, right?
[00:08:49] Because these are a lot of these cold cases at
[00:08:51] least are murders that are one commit.
[00:08:54] This guy is going to commit one murder his
[00:08:56] entire life.
[00:08:57] And then the next 30 years, you're going to look
[00:08:59] at him and think there's no way that guy's a
[00:09:00] murderer.
[00:09:02] And that's how he goes undetected for 30 years.
[00:09:04] And so you got to kind of understand, OK, so what
[00:09:06] is that about?
[00:09:07] Like, what does that tell us about human nature?
[00:09:09] Even my own nature.
[00:09:10] So a lot of this was very introspective for me
[00:09:12] over the years.
[00:09:12] And I think it's just taken me that part of
[00:09:15] the aging process is kind of coming to terms
[00:09:17] with who you really are.
[00:09:19] Yeah.
[00:09:19] And I think that's been helpful.
[00:09:20] That's why it's probably the book I would not
[00:09:22] write in my 40s.
[00:09:23] This is the book that you're writing your 60s.
[00:09:26] Well, I tell you, I really like this book
[00:09:28] and I'm going to get to some of the
[00:09:29] questions about it.
[00:09:30] And and I think, you know, our crowd, which is
[00:09:33] mostly pastors, I think, has really been
[00:09:35] interested in this.
[00:09:36] And but first, maybe we just back up a little
[00:09:39] bit. It's been a while since you were last
[00:09:41] on the podcast.
[00:09:42] I love to just give us a quick bio.
[00:09:45] I'll bet most of our listeners have actually
[00:09:48] seen you before.
[00:09:50] They just didn't realize it because they're
[00:09:51] watching Dateline.
[00:09:52] So maybe just a quick bio.
[00:09:54] How did we get to here?
[00:09:55] Well, I was just somebody who was working
[00:09:58] in Los Angeles County as an investigator.
[00:10:01] I wasn't yet assigned permanently to
[00:10:03] coal cases, but I was already starting to
[00:10:05] tinker with them because a lot of us do
[00:10:07] that. Now these are all collateral cases
[00:10:09] for most agencies around the country
[00:10:10] unsolved murders.
[00:10:11] And I didn't become a Christian until it
[00:10:14] was about maybe eight years on the job.
[00:10:16] I was already an advanced and kind of a
[00:10:19] senior investigator.
[00:10:20] But but I was encouraged to go to
[00:10:23] church by my wife, who was also not
[00:10:27] a Christian yet, but really had a better
[00:10:29] sense of what how important this might
[00:10:31] be.
[00:10:32] And she tugged at me and tugged at me
[00:10:34] and I was more than willing to go not
[00:10:36] to disprove her.
[00:10:37] I'm not like Lee Strubel's good friend
[00:10:38] of mine wrote the case for Christ.
[00:10:40] He's trying to disprove his wife Leslie.
[00:10:42] That was not my situation because we
[00:10:43] weren't yet Christians.
[00:10:45] For me, it was all just go because if
[00:10:47] this makes you happy as I go into the
[00:10:48] restaurant, you want to go to.
[00:10:49] I can certainly go to a restaurant or
[00:10:51] a movie for a couple of hours if that's
[00:10:52] the kind of movie you want to watch.
[00:10:54] So I can certainly go to church.
[00:10:55] And so I went to church with her and
[00:10:57] the pastor pitched Jesus in a provocative
[00:11:00] way. He just said that Jesus was the
[00:11:01] smartest man who ever lived.
[00:11:03] And that started an investigative
[00:11:04] journey for me.
[00:11:05] I thought, well, what's so smart about
[00:11:06] Jesus? And I bought the First Bible
[00:11:09] started examining the words that were
[00:11:10] used in the New Testament, thought it
[00:11:12] would probably worth my time to test
[00:11:14] these authors as if they were
[00:11:17] report writers of something they saw
[00:11:19] or talk to a witness.
[00:11:20] Like I just started looking at it
[00:11:23] from an investigative perspective.
[00:11:24] And if you do that under the criteria
[00:11:26] we typically use and I wrote about this
[00:11:29] in a book called Cold Case Christianity,
[00:11:31] that kind of started everything for
[00:11:32] us is that when I wrote about that
[00:11:34] people were intrigued.
[00:11:36] And so eventually I knew I wanted to
[00:11:38] write a book like this one, The Truth
[00:11:40] and True Crime, because that's
[00:11:42] really I think where the rubber
[00:11:43] meets the road is not just well,
[00:11:45] what's the evidence for Christianity?
[00:11:47] What's the evidence for the
[00:11:48] reliability of the New Testament?
[00:11:50] That's that's important.
[00:11:51] It was important to me.
[00:11:52] I could not have crossed the
[00:11:53] threshold without first doing that.
[00:11:55] But what was more important is
[00:11:58] that does what does how does
[00:12:00] Christianity make sense of the world
[00:12:02] I'm living in?
[00:12:03] Like, I mean, that's a selfish
[00:12:05] approach because a lot of us wants
[00:12:07] to know like we want to learn
[00:12:09] something so we can get better at
[00:12:10] the people who are listening to
[00:12:11] your podcast, I suspect want
[00:12:13] to get better at their craft.
[00:12:15] And sometimes the craft I'm
[00:12:16] trying to get better at is just
[00:12:17] called life.
[00:12:18] Like I want to know, does this
[00:12:19] thing does this thing actually
[00:12:21] apply to me in some way?
[00:12:22] Is it going to open doors?
[00:12:23] Am I going to see like C.S.
[00:12:24] Lewis used to say that he sees
[00:12:26] everything through that lens
[00:12:29] of the Christian worldview and
[00:12:30] it suddenly like goes on in all
[00:12:32] these different areas.
[00:12:33] And that was certainly true for
[00:12:34] me.
[00:12:35] And that's what I wanted to
[00:12:36] communicate in this book.
[00:12:39] That's great.
[00:12:40] The you know, you start off
[00:12:41] the book, you talk a bit about
[00:12:43] the Kathy Jacobson case.
[00:12:44] We don't have to necessarily get
[00:12:45] into that case, but about how
[00:12:47] that case and others like it,
[00:12:50] although remaining open and
[00:12:51] unsolved, led to
[00:12:54] some fruit that sort of
[00:12:55] tangentially led to this
[00:12:57] book. Tell us a little bit about
[00:12:59] that. I thought that was an
[00:13:00] interesting way to start.
[00:13:02] Well, and a lot of it is that,
[00:13:03] you know, unsolved cases don't
[00:13:05] always close.
[00:13:06] They sometimes stay open and they
[00:13:07] say they stay suspended because
[00:13:09] you can't figure it out.
[00:13:10] You spend a lot of time.
[00:13:12] That was a case that I didn't
[00:13:13] go into all the detail.
[00:13:14] And I try to change the
[00:13:15] details of some of these cases
[00:13:16] in the names so that they
[00:13:18] can protect the privacy,
[00:13:19] especially of these unsolved
[00:13:20] cases.
[00:13:21] But that's a case that still
[00:13:22] frustrates me to this day.
[00:13:25] But what it does is it opens up
[00:13:26] like you realize when you work
[00:13:28] these kinds of kind of put it
[00:13:29] to, you know, most of us
[00:13:32] aren't pushed or don't find
[00:13:34] ourselves in a situation where
[00:13:35] we even fathom the idea
[00:13:37] of doing something like this.
[00:13:40] And how you get there,
[00:13:42] how you get from where you are
[00:13:43] now to the point where you're
[00:13:44] now a suspect and a murderer
[00:13:46] is really entranced.
[00:13:48] I think dateline episodes do
[00:13:49] so well.
[00:13:50] I think we want to watch those
[00:13:51] and say, yeah, because someone
[00:13:52] like me be by myself in a
[00:13:54] situation like that.
[00:13:55] Well, that was a case where we
[00:13:57] you know, we were swabbing
[00:13:58] people for DNA
[00:14:00] and never really found
[00:14:01] resolution at all.
[00:14:03] But we certainly met a lot of
[00:14:04] people along the way.
[00:14:06] And, you know, that
[00:14:08] meaning that many people along
[00:14:10] the way, first of all, teaches
[00:14:11] you some humility, which we
[00:14:12] can talk about.
[00:14:13] But it also, I think, opens
[00:14:15] the door to looking at other
[00:14:16] aspects of human nature
[00:14:18] that you just sometimes you
[00:14:19] find this as it's a guy you're
[00:14:20] swabbing because typically when
[00:14:21] I swab somebody, I've done a
[00:14:23] ton of background research.
[00:14:24] When I get to your door to ask
[00:14:25] for DNA sample, I pretty much
[00:14:27] know everything about you
[00:14:28] before I get there.
[00:14:30] So you learn a lot about
[00:14:31] people and that kind of what
[00:14:33] this book is about.
[00:14:33] It's just kind of wisdom that
[00:14:34] you get working these
[00:14:36] investigations at, you know,
[00:14:37] 15 crime stories, 15 rules
[00:14:40] for life, 15 pieces
[00:14:42] of evidence that confirm that
[00:14:43] the New Testament actually
[00:14:44] describes the world the way
[00:14:46] it really is.
[00:14:47] And that's important.
[00:14:48] It was important to me to know
[00:14:49] does this book, if it's true,
[00:14:51] it ought to describe us to a T
[00:14:55] and it does.
[00:14:56] So there's something that we
[00:14:57] can learn.
[00:14:58] I this book was was
[00:15:00] interesting to me.
[00:15:01] So it had a lot of some
[00:15:02] of similarities with your
[00:15:03] previous books, certainly
[00:15:05] about, you know, seeing
[00:15:07] through this forensic lens,
[00:15:11] seeing faith in this way in
[00:15:12] one way or another.
[00:15:13] But I also found it to be
[00:15:14] quite different.
[00:15:15] And you alluded to that
[00:15:16] already in our conversation is
[00:15:18] that it is different than the
[00:15:19] other books that you wrote.
[00:15:20] We've been it.
[00:15:21] The funny thing is we've been
[00:15:22] spending about the last month
[00:15:24] on the theme of spiritual
[00:15:25] formation and I'm reading your
[00:15:26] book and I'm thinking, I think
[00:15:28] this is a spiritual formation
[00:15:29] book.
[00:15:31] Yeah.
[00:15:31] No, I think how do you
[00:15:31] respond to that?
[00:15:33] Am I am I way off or that's
[00:15:34] what it feels like?
[00:15:35] Yeah, no, it's the book I
[00:15:36] wanted to write for 10 years,
[00:15:38] but but I had earned that
[00:15:39] right with publishers because
[00:15:40] they see you in white once
[00:15:41] you write a book like
[00:15:42] Cold Case Christianity, you're
[00:15:43] probably going to write a
[00:15:44] couple more because that's
[00:15:46] now become what they expect
[00:15:47] of you.
[00:15:48] But early on I pitched this
[00:15:49] book, I said, this is really
[00:15:50] what most of my phone calls
[00:15:52] are.
[00:15:52] People don't call me to say, hey,
[00:15:54] can you remind me why the new
[00:15:55] testament's reliable?
[00:15:57] They call me because they're
[00:15:58] having a problem in life
[00:16:00] and they're kind of wondering
[00:16:02] where's this leading?
[00:16:04] Like they're concerned that
[00:16:05] they may be stepped into
[00:16:05] something or met someone or
[00:16:07] as someone's now appeared in
[00:16:08] their life that they're
[00:16:09] wondering, is this the first
[00:16:11] domino in a series of
[00:16:12] dominoes that don't lead to
[00:16:13] a good place?
[00:16:15] What do you think, Jim?
[00:16:15] What do you think of this
[00:16:17] guy? Let me describe him for
[00:16:18] you. Let me describe my
[00:16:19] situation to you.
[00:16:20] Well, that's the stuff that
[00:16:21] every phone call I get even
[00:16:23] from the people who I work
[00:16:24] with as Christian
[00:16:25] apologists. They're not going
[00:16:26] to call me and talk about
[00:16:27] apologetics. They don't.
[00:16:29] They call me and they talk
[00:16:30] about life and what's
[00:16:31] troubling them.
[00:16:32] And that's the stuff that
[00:16:33] is in this book.
[00:16:34] And that's not only that,
[00:16:36] it's that I bet that every
[00:16:37] conversation you have with a
[00:16:39] non-believer does not
[00:16:40] start with, you know, can
[00:16:41] you review for me the
[00:16:42] cosmological argument?
[00:16:43] That's not how they start.
[00:16:45] What typically happens is it
[00:16:46] starts with, man, I'm just
[00:16:48] going through this divorce
[00:16:48] right now and I don't even
[00:16:50] know how I got here.
[00:16:51] And I'm not sure what to do
[00:16:53] next.
[00:16:54] Well, there's an open door
[00:16:55] there because it turns out
[00:16:56] that the Christian worldview
[00:16:58] because it's true, offers
[00:17:00] the resources that are
[00:17:01] unavailable under any other
[00:17:03] worldview to help you in
[00:17:04] that moment.
[00:17:06] And if you know that,
[00:17:08] well, now you've got a
[00:17:09] conversation starter.
[00:17:10] You've got a place where
[00:17:10] you can start. Also, yeah,
[00:17:11] this is a much more past
[00:17:12] oral book. This is a book
[00:17:14] that is, you know, what now?
[00:17:16] If you know it's true and
[00:17:18] you've already researched
[00:17:19] the evidence and now you're
[00:17:20] in. What now?
[00:17:22] Yeah. Like how does this new
[00:17:24] way I'm looking at the world
[00:17:26] through a Christian worldview
[00:17:27] lens? How does it inform
[00:17:29] other aspects of my life?
[00:17:31] You know, that's the kind
[00:17:32] of thing we're trying to
[00:17:33] get to in this book.
[00:17:34] I think that's really good.
[00:17:35] I just was thinking of
[00:17:37] conversation I had over
[00:17:37] the phone with someone this
[00:17:39] week. You were at a church
[00:17:40] trying to sort some hard
[00:17:41] things out in life.
[00:17:42] And the question was not
[00:17:44] is Jesus real? Is he Lord?
[00:17:46] Is this God existent?
[00:17:47] Was what should I do?
[00:17:50] That's right. Real life,
[00:17:51] this real situation.
[00:17:52] Tell me what to do.
[00:17:53] And of course, I'm not going
[00:17:55] to say here's what I think
[00:17:56] you should do. I'm going to
[00:17:57] help wrestle through using
[00:18:00] Jesus and our faith as a
[00:18:01] lens through which to
[00:18:03] wrestle through to a path
[00:18:05] forward for her.
[00:18:06] And but yeah, I think
[00:18:07] you're right. It's the
[00:18:08] practical when the rubber
[00:18:10] meets the road of life that
[00:18:11] people, that's where their
[00:18:12] questions begin. And then
[00:18:14] you get to the apologetic
[00:18:15] stuff. That's great, too.
[00:18:16] But it's that real life.
[00:18:18] Where does real life and
[00:18:19] real faith intersect?
[00:18:20] I think it's a crucial part
[00:18:21] of the conversation.
[00:18:22] Well, and you know what part
[00:18:23] of me too was is that I
[00:18:24] think in my generation
[00:18:26] that for those of us who
[00:18:27] were skeptical, the chief
[00:18:30] way in was through the
[00:18:31] question, is it true?
[00:18:32] Is it true? Because we had
[00:18:33] it be all held commonly
[00:18:35] in our culture. And still
[00:18:36] at that point, we held
[00:18:37] an objective view of what
[00:18:39] truth claims were that
[00:18:41] there were some objective
[00:18:42] truths that were true for
[00:18:43] all of us. And so when we
[00:18:44] said, is Christianity
[00:18:45] true? We heard it as, is
[00:18:47] it true whether I like it
[00:18:49] or not, whether I think it
[00:18:50] works for me or not,
[00:18:51] whether it's something
[00:18:51] that I'm familiar with or
[00:18:52] not. There was no me in
[00:18:54] it. It was is it
[00:18:56] objectively true? I think
[00:18:58] the cultural world of
[00:18:58] knowledge has shifted. So
[00:19:00] when I say that Christianity
[00:19:01] is true, most people hear
[00:19:02] it was true for you.
[00:19:04] Not true for me. And so
[00:19:06] and I think part of that
[00:19:07] is because that a new
[00:19:08] question has arised that
[00:19:10] people, young people
[00:19:11] especially have that's
[00:19:12] even louder than is
[00:19:14] Christianity true? And that
[00:19:15] is Christianity good?
[00:19:18] Because they've been sold
[00:19:19] the bill that says, you
[00:19:20] know, this is the source of
[00:19:21] all evil and culture right
[00:19:22] now, all misogyny, all
[00:19:24] racism, all homophobia,
[00:19:26] whatever it is, or
[00:19:27] oboe that you can
[00:19:29] imagine. We've been kind
[00:19:31] of labeled as the source
[00:19:32] of those things. So the
[00:19:33] question becomes then,
[00:19:34] okay, I've written
[00:19:37] now two books, this book
[00:19:38] in the book before this
[00:19:39] person of interest were
[00:19:40] really in an effort to
[00:19:41] turn that corner. I've
[00:19:43] already written books on
[00:19:44] is it true? Now the question
[00:19:45] is, is it good? Does it
[00:19:47] contribute to human
[00:19:48] flourishing? Does it
[00:19:49] matter in the 21st century?
[00:19:51] Is it the source of all
[00:19:53] of the things that even
[00:19:54] atheists seem to covet
[00:19:56] more than any other
[00:19:57] you know, literature, art,
[00:19:58] music, education, science?
[00:20:00] It turns out that
[00:20:01] Christianity has had an
[00:20:02] important role to play
[00:20:03] in all of those things.
[00:20:04] And in this case, it
[00:20:06] also will describe, I
[00:20:08] always say it this way,
[00:20:08] if you are aiming at
[00:20:09] a target called human
[00:20:11] flourishing or you want
[00:20:13] to become a better leader
[00:20:14] or become a better employer
[00:20:16] or a better employee or
[00:20:18] a better spouse or a
[00:20:20] better anything, better
[00:20:21] grades, better income, better
[00:20:22] longevity, better mental
[00:20:23] health. If you want to
[00:20:25] improve your life in these
[00:20:26] categories, you know, does
[00:20:28] Christianity have anything
[00:20:29] to say about that? If
[00:20:30] you're aiming at that
[00:20:31] thing, the thing we call
[00:20:32] human flourishing, if you
[00:20:34] hit that bullseye right
[00:20:35] in the bullseye of that
[00:20:36] target, you're going to
[00:20:38] find yourself in the
[00:20:39] Christian worldview, whether
[00:20:40] you know it or not.
[00:20:41] Yeah, whether you would say,
[00:20:42] yeah, I'm employing Christian
[00:20:43] ideas. You mean, I know
[00:20:45] you're employing Christian
[00:20:46] ideas, but you are if
[00:20:48] you're flourishing because
[00:20:49] it turns out that those
[00:20:50] are the recommendations of
[00:20:51] Scripture. Then when we
[00:20:52] deviate from those
[00:20:53] recommendations, we do so
[00:20:54] at our own peril.
[00:20:55] Yeah, I think I think the
[00:20:57] strength of this book is
[00:20:59] really in the way that
[00:21:00] you've unpacked it.
[00:21:02] You've kind of taken the
[00:21:03] teeth out of the question,
[00:21:04] is it good? And the
[00:21:05] reason in my view, you
[00:21:07] did because in a good
[00:21:10] way, because what you did was
[00:21:10] you framed it around these
[00:21:11] true crime stories. And you
[00:21:13] just sort of demonstrate
[00:21:14] like, like wisdom, for
[00:21:15] example, like we're all
[00:21:16] we're all searching for
[00:21:17] wisdom. And you just showed
[00:21:19] us a way that somebody,
[00:21:21] you know, made a decision
[00:21:23] that that was the worst
[00:21:24] possible outcome. And then
[00:21:27] you're in there's a better
[00:21:28] way. You know, actually
[00:21:29] you're sort of acknowledging
[00:21:31] that there's a desire for
[00:21:33] even, you know, criminals
[00:21:35] who were trying to get
[00:21:36] something, you're almost
[00:21:38] saying, well, they're
[00:21:39] actually craving and
[00:21:40] striving after that thing
[00:21:41] that we all are. And here's
[00:21:43] it, here's a better way. And
[00:21:44] here's how scripture talks
[00:21:45] about that. I think that's
[00:21:46] really nicely laid out.
[00:21:47] Well, let me just deviate
[00:21:49] from what I'm not sure what
[00:21:50] you plan on asking next. But
[00:21:51] let me just throw something
[00:21:52] out to you that might be
[00:21:52] helpful. I see this all the
[00:21:54] time you're right. For
[00:21:55] example, I have a chapter
[00:21:57] here in this book. I think
[00:21:59] it's called the one of the
[00:21:59] Santa Claus and misplaced
[00:22:01] devotion. And this is a
[00:22:02] guy who we knew as Santa
[00:22:04] Claus. He was a homeless
[00:22:05] guy who was not really named
[00:22:06] Santa Claus, but he looked
[00:22:08] like Santa Claus. And so
[00:22:09] everyone on the street knew
[00:22:10] him this way. And when he was
[00:22:11] killed, we were kind of
[00:22:13] scratching our head about it
[00:22:14] because we know that all
[00:22:16] murders are only motivated by
[00:22:18] one of three factors, three
[00:22:20] evil desires in the human
[00:22:21] heart. And that's the
[00:22:23] pursuit of money, the
[00:22:24] pursuit of sex. So it's
[00:22:25] money and greed, sex and
[00:22:27] relationships or the pursuit
[00:22:29] of power, which is a huge
[00:22:30] category, which incorporates
[00:22:32] all kinds of other things.
[00:22:34] Now, it turns out these are
[00:22:35] just three good things that
[00:22:36] God has given us really for
[00:22:39] his glory and for our
[00:22:40] benefit that we then twist
[00:22:43] when we make them more
[00:22:44] important than God. When
[00:22:46] these become idols, the
[00:22:47] things that are of utmost
[00:22:49] importance to us, then
[00:22:51] suddenly they master us
[00:22:52] because whatever your idol is
[00:22:53] whatever it is you think is
[00:22:53] of a highest value that
[00:22:55] will become your master. And
[00:22:57] then as these things
[00:22:58] master us, we then are
[00:22:59] easily provoked if someone
[00:23:02] threatens to harm any of
[00:23:03] these three things. So in
[00:23:04] this particular case, we
[00:23:05] were thinking, well, who
[00:23:06] how does this guy? How does
[00:23:08] anything? Who gets anything
[00:23:09] in sex money or power from
[00:23:10] Santa Claus? This guy had no
[00:23:12] money. He was killed the
[00:23:14] night he was sleeping in a
[00:23:15] porta potty at the edge of
[00:23:17] a construction site when
[00:23:18] somebody came and shook
[00:23:19] the porta potty when he
[00:23:20] came out they stabbed and
[00:23:21] death. But I'm trying to
[00:23:22] think, well, okay, he
[00:23:24] didn't have any money. They
[00:23:25] didn't do it for sex. And
[00:23:27] he certainly had no
[00:23:28] position or anything to
[00:23:29] offer him a power
[00:23:30] perspective. Like how does
[00:23:32] this happen? Well, here's
[00:23:33] what happened. Another guy
[00:23:35] who was also living on the
[00:23:36] street who was much younger
[00:23:37] than Santa Claus because
[00:23:38] this guy was older, white
[00:23:39] hair, white beard. This
[00:23:41] younger guy had been
[00:23:43] collecting recyclables in
[00:23:45] one portion of the city and
[00:23:46] Santa Claus had either
[00:23:48] intentionally or
[00:23:49] unintentionally slipped over
[00:23:50] into one of the alleys that
[00:23:51] this guy considered to be
[00:23:52] his alley to collect
[00:23:54] recyclables and he had
[00:23:55] pulled a couple of cans
[00:23:56] out of trash cans out of
[00:23:57] that guy's alley. That
[00:23:58] guy saw that as his alley.
[00:24:00] Now how much money we
[00:24:01] talking about here? Couple
[00:24:02] dollars max. Okay, not
[00:24:03] much. So this guy though
[00:24:05] confronted Santa Claus at a
[00:24:07] recycling center later that
[00:24:08] day and he said to him, hey
[00:24:10] dude, stay out of my alley.
[00:24:11] Santa Claus just kind of
[00:24:12] blew it off. Didn't say
[00:24:13] anything harsh to him, did
[00:24:14] not mock him. He just
[00:24:16] did not give him any, like
[00:24:17] didn't take him seriously
[00:24:18] at all, like, like, you
[00:24:20] know, water off a duck's
[00:24:20] back. Well, two things
[00:24:22] just were triggered there.
[00:24:24] This guy was upset that
[00:24:25] he had been taking a
[00:24:26] couple dollars a day from
[00:24:28] his, what his money was
[00:24:30] and he had been
[00:24:32] disrespected in front of
[00:24:34] other people who were
[00:24:35] canners also who were
[00:24:36] canning in the city. And
[00:24:38] those two things, they
[00:24:40] might think, well, this is
[00:24:41] not much money and how
[00:24:42] much respect do you really
[00:24:43] how much do you really
[00:24:43] disrespect it? But if you
[00:24:45] take those things that
[00:24:46] God has given us for good
[00:24:47] and turn them into idols,
[00:24:49] it takes very little to
[00:24:50] bruise them to offend
[00:24:52] you. If you're somebody
[00:24:53] who makes an idol of
[00:24:54] respect, well then
[00:24:55] guess what? You're a
[00:24:56] tyrant who the minute
[00:24:57] someone disrespects you
[00:24:58] you're willing to go
[00:24:59] shake his his porta potty
[00:25:00] and stab him to death.
[00:25:02] And that's exactly what
[00:25:03] this guy did that night.
[00:25:04] So that to me, I wrote
[00:25:06] that chapter to kind of
[00:25:07] help us to see
[00:25:09] that this is what we do.
[00:25:11] This is everyone's
[00:25:13] a worshipper, everyone.
[00:25:15] And and we are, you know,
[00:25:16] it's famously been described
[00:25:17] as the creator of idols.
[00:25:19] We are master craftsmen
[00:25:20] of idols and we are.
[00:25:22] And now here's how
[00:25:23] it can help us.
[00:25:23] But no, I was I was a
[00:25:24] pastor for a number of
[00:25:25] years after I got saved.
[00:25:27] Then I went to seminary.
[00:25:28] I started as a youth pastor
[00:25:29] then I launched a church
[00:25:31] had that church for six years
[00:25:33] until I wrote Cold Case
[00:25:34] Christianity.
[00:25:36] And then I stepped out of
[00:25:37] that position.
[00:25:38] And I'll tell you as a
[00:25:39] church leader that, you know,
[00:25:41] if you know now that there's
[00:25:43] only three motives for
[00:25:44] stupid, sex, money and power.
[00:25:46] That's it. There's only three.
[00:25:48] Well, you know now how to
[00:25:49] protect yourself from the
[00:25:50] three ways you can do
[00:25:50] something stupid.
[00:25:52] Yeah. Now what we do for
[00:25:53] pastors typically is we
[00:25:55] will say, oh, yeah,
[00:25:55] we're going to have our
[00:25:56] deacon board.
[00:25:57] We're going to make sure
[00:25:59] that there's no, you know,
[00:26:00] sexual improprieties.
[00:26:01] We're going to make sure that
[00:26:02] the money issue is settled
[00:26:03] and we're going to keep our
[00:26:04] eyes on those two things.
[00:26:05] But the third area, power,
[00:26:09] it turns out almost every
[00:26:11] deacon board, elder board
[00:26:12] I've ever come across,
[00:26:13] wants their pastor to be
[00:26:14] more famous than he is right
[00:26:16] now.
[00:26:17] They they yeah, you want to
[00:26:18] do a podcast, do a podcast
[00:26:19] for sure. Yeah, we'll help
[00:26:20] you. We'll use church
[00:26:21] money to make that thing
[00:26:22] work because it turns out
[00:26:24] celebrity is what draws
[00:26:25] people to lots of places,
[00:26:27] including churches.
[00:26:29] And we actually don't protect
[00:26:30] our pastors from celebrity,
[00:26:32] but that's in the power
[00:26:33] category.
[00:26:35] And here's what I've discovered.
[00:26:36] If you scratch one of those
[00:26:38] three inches, you will
[00:26:40] eventually scratch the other
[00:26:41] two.
[00:26:42] So you can't just say, well,
[00:26:44] that's not that important.
[00:26:45] That's not going to hurt us.
[00:26:47] Oh, yes, it is because it
[00:26:48] turns out famous people
[00:26:50] are suddenly presented with
[00:26:51] temptations they wouldn't
[00:26:52] otherwise be presented with.
[00:26:54] Yeah. But once you become
[00:26:55] famous or wealthy, now
[00:26:56] suddenly you have access
[00:26:58] to things you didn't have
[00:26:58] access to before.
[00:27:00] And you eventually slip
[00:27:01] slip over into those.
[00:27:02] So so so the takeaways for me
[00:27:04] as I'm watching this in my own
[00:27:05] life and watching this in the
[00:27:06] cases that I work is number
[00:27:08] one, we have to be extremely
[00:27:10] sensitive to those three
[00:27:12] impulses. By the way, those
[00:27:13] are in first John too.
[00:27:15] But but that's not where I
[00:27:16] learned them. I learned them
[00:27:17] working cases.
[00:27:19] But that's all straight out
[00:27:20] of scripture.
[00:27:21] And and so it's a matter
[00:27:22] of us saying, OK, look, are
[00:27:23] we protecting ourselves
[00:27:24] in those three areas?
[00:27:25] Because let's face it.
[00:27:26] Right now there's another
[00:27:27] chapter in this book about
[00:27:28] celebrity, just raw celebrity.
[00:27:30] It's about a guy named
[00:27:31] Pallone who was a gangster who
[00:27:32] was very famous like a local
[00:27:34] legend and what happened to him.
[00:27:36] But I'll just tell you that we
[00:27:37] have to be really serious
[00:27:38] about celebrity. And right
[00:27:40] now there are no gatekeepers.
[00:27:41] So if you've got a podcast
[00:27:43] with enough listeners, well,
[00:27:44] you are in a sense, you're
[00:27:45] now known in a way you
[00:27:46] wouldn't have been known 30
[00:27:47] years ago.
[00:27:48] Yeah. Because there are no
[00:27:49] gatekeepers. You know, they
[00:27:50] used to be the ABC NBC CBS were
[00:27:53] the gatekeepers that kept
[00:27:54] people out of celebrity.
[00:27:55] If you weren't on the
[00:27:56] Washington Times or the New
[00:27:57] York Times or the LA Times or
[00:27:59] whatever it was going to be,
[00:27:59] you didn't become known.
[00:28:01] But now we are in control of
[00:28:03] the very platforms that will
[00:28:05] make us famous.
[00:28:06] Yeah. So we have to be much
[00:28:08] more conscientious about that
[00:28:10] and much more deliberate.
[00:28:11] Well, there's I mean, there's
[00:28:12] plenty of plenty of proof
[00:28:14] that we absolutely must because,
[00:28:16] you know, my goodness, the
[00:28:18] number of pastors who have
[00:28:20] succumbed to those one of
[00:28:22] those three things is, you
[00:28:25] know, it's almost become
[00:28:28] like, OK, well, who's next?
[00:28:30] Right. It just seems like one
[00:28:31] after another. And it's well,
[00:28:32] and I guarantee the way in for
[00:28:33] almost all the ones we're
[00:28:34] reading about was through the
[00:28:36] big. So remember on the on
[00:28:37] the if you had an Olympics for
[00:28:39] stupid, stupid motives to do
[00:28:40] crimes, there would be an
[00:28:43] award platform for the gold,
[00:28:44] the metal, the gold, the
[00:28:45] silver and the bronze.
[00:28:47] Well, you'd find that on that
[00:28:48] platform when the platform
[00:28:49] itself is called pride.
[00:28:51] But on that pride platform,
[00:28:53] you know, I think the silver
[00:28:54] and the bronze are going to be
[00:28:56] money or sex, but that gold is
[00:28:58] going to be power because it's
[00:29:00] like 70 percent is encompassed
[00:29:02] in that. So most of the
[00:29:03] mistakes we make are not
[00:29:04] because we're chasing money or
[00:29:05] sex, although we will do that.
[00:29:08] But it starts because we are
[00:29:09] in a position of authority
[00:29:11] and we maximize that
[00:29:12] authority until finally it
[00:29:14] opens the door one or the
[00:29:15] other two. And that's where
[00:29:17] you had to I think help with
[00:29:19] to help ourselves as as leaders
[00:29:20] in the church to make sure
[00:29:22] that we don't we don't take
[00:29:25] advantage of it to be very
[00:29:26] sensible. And look, I would say
[00:29:27] this way as an author, it's one
[00:29:29] thing to have trusted authority
[00:29:31] because that allows you to write
[00:29:32] about certain things to speak
[00:29:34] about certain things because
[00:29:35] people trust your authority.
[00:29:36] That's very different than
[00:29:37] celebrity. And then a lot of
[00:29:38] people have mistaken the two
[00:29:39] and so they think, well, hey,
[00:29:40] celebrity, no, it's trusted
[00:29:41] authority. And that means that
[00:29:44] sometimes getting off the stage
[00:29:46] and getting getting out of the
[00:29:47] celebrity bullseye is actually
[00:29:49] in the best interest of
[00:29:50] everybody. Because then you're
[00:29:52] kind of reducing the level to
[00:29:54] which people see you as a star
[00:29:56] instead of as a trusted
[00:29:58] authority.
[00:29:59] Olympics for stupid, that's
[00:30:01] pretty funny.
[00:30:04] The there's one kind of another
[00:30:06] lane just in our last few
[00:30:08] minutes that that we get to
[00:30:10] talk to you.
[00:30:13] I want to ask a little bit
[00:30:14] about apologetics itself.
[00:30:16] You know, I think to me
[00:30:18] that certainly obviously it's a
[00:30:19] big part of your life has been
[00:30:21] it's obviously a switch
[00:30:22] another switch that you can't
[00:30:23] shut off. It's it's who you are.
[00:30:26] I can resonate with that.
[00:30:27] I'm very much I do a lot of
[00:30:29] sermons that include
[00:30:31] apologetics.
[00:30:33] I really a twofold question
[00:30:35] here. The first is and you
[00:30:37] mentioned this a little bit
[00:30:37] earlier with the next
[00:30:38] generation truth, but what
[00:30:41] is the role of apologetics
[00:30:43] now? It's definitely I don't
[00:30:46] know if the role is
[00:30:47] different, but certainly the
[00:30:48] approach has to be different in
[00:30:50] today's kind of cancel culture,
[00:30:52] angry culture, anti church
[00:30:55] culture. What are some and
[00:30:57] maybe it's like one or two
[00:30:59] shifts that you have seen just
[00:31:01] over the last few years?
[00:31:03] Well, I think we are much
[00:31:05] we're entirely self focused
[00:31:07] and that drives everything from
[00:31:08] identity formation, right?
[00:31:10] Because it used to be that
[00:31:11] this is another chapter in
[00:31:12] this book talking about how we
[00:31:13] might in the past have looked
[00:31:15] outside of ourselves and said
[00:31:16] I want to be part of that
[00:31:17] larger thing and that's how we
[00:31:18] would form our identity. Now
[00:31:20] it's much more common for
[00:31:21] people to say, well, what are
[00:31:22] the desires of my heart? I'm
[00:31:23] going to form my identity
[00:31:24] around that. And you just got
[00:31:25] all going to have to put up
[00:31:26] with it. You're all going to
[00:31:27] have to embrace me this
[00:31:28] way. We are a me generation.
[00:31:31] This has been going on for
[00:31:31] probably well over how many
[00:31:33] years. I mean, this is not
[00:31:34] this is nothing new, but I
[00:31:35] think it does impact the way
[00:31:37] that we make a case here
[00:31:38] because in the way we make
[00:31:41] a case in front of a jury
[00:31:43] as we say, hey, here's
[00:31:44] this series of facts.
[00:31:46] You're going to be the
[00:31:46] determiner of what really
[00:31:48] happened there. Juries are
[00:31:51] not making a decision about
[00:31:52] what's in their personal best
[00:31:54] interest because they're there
[00:31:56] to be the determiner. You're
[00:31:57] trying to make a decision
[00:31:58] about what happened in that
[00:31:59] event in which they were not
[00:32:00] even involved. But I think
[00:32:02] that we're in a generation now
[00:32:03] that wants to know, well,
[00:32:05] what's in it for me? Okay,
[00:32:07] this might be true, but what's
[00:32:08] in it? Because we're so
[00:32:10] myopically self focused
[00:32:13] that now look at some point,
[00:32:14] I think what's in it for you
[00:32:15] is to not have an idea
[00:32:16] that it has to have something
[00:32:17] in it for you. But but until
[00:32:19] we make that case, I think
[00:32:21] with the approach I'm I want
[00:32:22] to take is well, you know, it
[00:32:23] turns out if you actually
[00:32:24] embraced this view, there
[00:32:27] is something in it for you
[00:32:28] because all the stuff that
[00:32:29] you're chasing right now
[00:32:30] that you think it's not
[00:32:31] satisfying and it's not
[00:32:33] helping you struggle through
[00:32:35] your suffering, not helping
[00:32:36] you struggle through trauma.
[00:32:37] It's not I mean that worldview
[00:32:39] you're holding right now is
[00:32:40] so empty that it's part of
[00:32:41] the problem. It's not part
[00:32:43] of the solution. But it turns
[00:32:45] out if you were created in the
[00:32:47] image of God that he might
[00:32:48] have some information about
[00:32:51] how the creation ought to
[00:32:53] operate, why it's here, what
[00:32:55] its purpose is, where its
[00:32:56] value is. And all you need
[00:32:59] to do is reconnect with your
[00:33:00] manufacturer and I can always
[00:33:02] use the illustration if I
[00:33:03] hold up some widget and I tell
[00:33:04] you what do you think this
[00:33:05] widget's for? And you have no
[00:33:06] idea. But it is big enough
[00:33:08] to be a doorstop. Well, I
[00:33:09] could repurpose it and make
[00:33:10] it a doorstop. I could
[00:33:11] assign its purpose based on
[00:33:13] how I want to use it. But you
[00:33:15] could just Google the name on
[00:33:16] the side of the widget, go
[00:33:18] to the internet site and find
[00:33:20] out from the manufacturer what
[00:33:21] it's for, what it's been
[00:33:23] designed for. It turns out
[00:33:24] that's true always that to
[00:33:27] discover something's purpose
[00:33:28] the wisest thing to do is to
[00:33:29] refer to the manufacturer.
[00:33:32] So I want to be able to
[00:33:33] communicate that this is
[00:33:34] actually a view that could
[00:33:36] bless you in some way
[00:33:37] because your manufacturer has
[00:33:39] been trying to reach you for
[00:33:41] a long time to convince you
[00:33:42] to stop being a doorstop.
[00:33:44] And until you're ready to stop
[00:33:46] doing that, you're never going
[00:33:47] to know what life could have
[00:33:50] been. And this is why Jesus
[00:33:51] talks about how he can set
[00:33:52] you free because it turns
[00:33:54] out the stuff that you thought
[00:33:55] was important, you've given
[00:33:56] your life to that stuff. It
[00:33:58] is now your master and it
[00:34:00] doesn't care about you. It's
[00:34:01] not your creator. True
[00:34:03] freedom is when you've
[00:34:04] given your life,
[00:34:05] serrated it entirely, not
[00:34:07] to something that's false,
[00:34:08] but to something that's
[00:34:09] true. So that's why I
[00:34:11] think in the end, I think
[00:34:12] what shifted for me at least
[00:34:13] is to say, OK, let me
[00:34:15] explain to you why you're
[00:34:17] struggling and how that
[00:34:20] could change if you simply
[00:34:22] would listen to your father.
[00:34:24] Yeah. I what I usually
[00:34:27] say to my congregation
[00:34:29] when I preach and I'll say,
[00:34:30] hey, listen, you may not know
[00:34:32] what you believe about any of
[00:34:33] this, but what do you have
[00:34:34] to lose? Give me 30 days.
[00:34:36] Give God 30 days. Live
[00:34:38] 30 days like it's all true
[00:34:40] and then you tell me what
[00:34:42] you think. But you got to go
[00:34:43] all in. Give it a month.
[00:34:45] You would give any exercise
[00:34:47] program or nutritional
[00:34:48] program or any self-help
[00:34:50] program 30 days to really
[00:34:51] know if it's going to work.
[00:34:53] See if it works. I don't
[00:34:54] think God's going to let you
[00:34:55] down. And you sort of giving
[00:34:56] people permission to say, OK,
[00:34:59] maybe there is another way
[00:35:01] and I don't know what I
[00:35:02] think, but I'm maybe this
[00:35:05] other way is Jesus after all.
[00:35:06] I feel like coming at it
[00:35:08] from sort of a more winsome
[00:35:10] place like or what do you
[00:35:11] have to lose? Clearly, what's
[00:35:13] going on isn't working for you
[00:35:16] is a way to sort of dug tail
[00:35:17] on that idea.
[00:35:18] Well, and you know, I think
[00:35:19] in order to be good, it has
[00:35:21] to be true. So that's why
[00:35:22] I've wanted to write books
[00:35:23] in both categories, but I've
[00:35:24] already done the other books.
[00:35:25] And so now I'm trying to
[00:35:26] focus on this side of it.
[00:35:27] And I think even Dawkins,
[00:35:28] the famed atheist in the
[00:35:29] last month, who's kind of
[00:35:31] done interviews in which he
[00:35:32] said he likes living
[00:35:34] in a culture that is resting
[00:35:36] on a Christian worldview.
[00:35:37] He would much rather live in
[00:35:38] that kind of culture and
[00:35:39] everything that emerges from
[00:35:41] that Judeo-Christian worldview
[00:35:43] than from any culture that is
[00:35:45] either atheistic or Muslim
[00:35:47] or other possibility.
[00:35:48] He sees Europe becoming
[00:35:50] more secular and he even went
[00:35:52] so far as to kind of describe
[00:35:54] himself as a cultural Christian.
[00:35:56] Well, he doesn't mean we
[00:35:57] think of cultural Christian
[00:35:58] like, hey, you know, we've
[00:35:59] raised in the church and we
[00:36:01] think it's true, but we have
[00:36:02] no idea what it really even
[00:36:03] says because we're just
[00:36:04] cultural Christians.
[00:36:05] No, no, he means that he
[00:36:07] not he doesn't think it's
[00:36:08] true. He does not want to
[00:36:09] become a Christian, but he
[00:36:10] does like what it creates
[00:36:14] in culture. And I thought, oh,
[00:36:15] that's interesting.
[00:36:16] So so and the reason why it
[00:36:18] does that is because it is
[00:36:19] true. It is because it is
[00:36:21] that not these are not just
[00:36:22] like, you know, 66 books
[00:36:24] that tell you something
[00:36:25] about self help from 66
[00:36:27] authors. This is one author,
[00:36:29] your creator, the manufacturer
[00:36:31] who knows how you ought to
[00:36:33] operate, who is simply
[00:36:34] trying to get you to pay
[00:36:35] attention. So I think in
[00:36:37] the end, that's that's where
[00:36:39] the difference is. And that's
[00:36:40] what the difference in
[00:36:41] culture is where young people
[00:36:43] have probably how we're going
[00:36:44] to reach. That's probably
[00:36:46] to be honest, when you were
[00:36:47] saying that to your
[00:36:48] congregation, that's exactly
[00:36:49] what you're doing. I always
[00:36:50] say, look, you should even
[00:36:53] if you don't think
[00:36:53] Christianity is true, you
[00:36:54] ought to live as though it
[00:36:55] is. Because you'll it'll
[00:36:57] be for your good. And if
[00:36:59] you're going to do that,
[00:37:00] you might as well get to
[00:37:00] know the author who tells
[00:37:02] you how you ought to live.
[00:37:03] You know, you might as well
[00:37:04] figure out what the author
[00:37:05] is who the author is who's
[00:37:07] giving you such great
[00:37:07] advice. So good. I mean,
[00:37:11] there's so much there, Jason,
[00:37:12] get there's about five rabbit
[00:37:13] trails that I know we can
[00:37:16] want to land the plane a
[00:37:17] little bit. So as people
[00:37:18] are looking out for this
[00:37:19] book and picking it up, and
[00:37:22] what are you hoping for
[00:37:24] them? What the readers that
[00:37:25] are picking it up, he probably
[00:37:26] have a wide audience. But
[00:37:29] where do you hopes?
[00:37:30] Well, this is a book that
[00:37:31] I really want, you know,
[00:37:33] I always write books with
[00:37:34] young people in mind
[00:37:35] because I think that's the
[00:37:36] generation that matters and
[00:37:37] that the most in the church
[00:37:38] if you're my age and you're
[00:37:39] in the church, you probably
[00:37:40] aren't going anywhere.
[00:37:42] But if you're 16 and you're
[00:37:43] in the church is a good
[00:37:44] chance you're not there for
[00:37:45] long. If we don't do something
[00:37:47] to help you to see that this
[00:37:49] is to encourage you to
[00:37:50] surrender your life to it.
[00:37:52] So so I think that this
[00:37:54] is I always think this is
[00:37:55] the kind of thing I wish
[00:37:56] that we would master so we
[00:37:57] could communicate it to our
[00:37:58] kids. I don't know the
[00:37:59] kids are going to read books.
[00:38:01] I think they will. That's
[00:38:02] if you read this book, it
[00:38:03] moves pretty fast. It's a
[00:38:04] lot of crime stories. I'm
[00:38:05] trying to find a way into the
[00:38:07] most important issues that
[00:38:08] we're going to confront young
[00:38:09] people and old people by way
[00:38:12] of crime story because I know
[00:38:13] that people are fascinated with
[00:38:14] true crime. And to be honest,
[00:38:16] that's how I discover these
[00:38:17] principles. And it's my only
[00:38:19] one thing I could write about.
[00:38:20] So that's what I'm hoping is
[00:38:22] that this becomes the three
[00:38:23] categories it could be in
[00:38:24] Christian apologetics, true
[00:38:26] crime and you know, self
[00:38:28] improvement. I hate that
[00:38:30] expression self improvement
[00:38:32] because it's not like we're
[00:38:33] the authority or we
[00:38:35] ourselves are going to
[00:38:35] design the principles that
[00:38:36] we're going to improve with.
[00:38:38] It's really God's improvement
[00:38:39] of us through the scriptures
[00:38:41] that are not just meant to
[00:38:43] describe our role as role in
[00:38:44] salvation, but it turns out
[00:38:46] that that role in saving us,
[00:38:47] that act, that's why the
[00:38:49] book kind of lands in those
[00:38:50] last four chapters on the
[00:38:51] issue of the gospel. The
[00:38:53] gospel is the key to all of
[00:38:54] this. It's the grace offered
[00:38:56] by God that separates this
[00:38:57] worldview from every other
[00:38:59] theistic worldview. You will
[00:39:01] not embrace these 15
[00:39:03] principles unless you
[00:39:04] understand what the gospel
[00:39:05] is. Yeah, and that's the
[00:39:07] thing that changes everything.
[00:39:08] So I think for me, the
[00:39:09] difference is before I'm
[00:39:10] making a case for
[00:39:12] Christianity here, I just
[00:39:14] want to be gospel focused
[00:39:16] because the gospel has my
[00:39:17] case never had any power.
[00:39:20] All the powers in the
[00:39:21] gospel all the case did was
[00:39:23] hopefully condition people
[00:39:25] pull down some barriers so
[00:39:26] they could hear the gospel
[00:39:27] where the power really is.
[00:39:30] So I did that in the
[00:39:31] beginning. Now when I hope
[00:39:32] as hey, we got to return
[00:39:33] to the one thing that changes
[00:39:35] everything and it is the
[00:39:37] gospel. So that's that's my
[00:39:39] hope in this next series of
[00:39:40] books. I love this.
[00:39:42] This is so good. So the book
[00:39:44] is the truth in true crime.
[00:39:46] I actually think so our
[00:39:47] church, we had a couple of
[00:39:49] groups do cold case for
[00:39:50] Christianity a couple of
[00:39:51] years ago as a small group.
[00:39:52] I think it's another great
[00:39:53] small group resource and a
[00:39:55] great resource to give away
[00:39:56] to kids, grandkids
[00:39:59] again as a as an on ramp
[00:40:03] to thinking about some of
[00:40:04] these things. So I want to
[00:40:05] encourage all of our all of
[00:40:07] our listeners to do that.
[00:40:08] Jay Warner Wallace, it has
[00:40:10] been a pleasure once again
[00:40:11] having you on. Thanks so
[00:40:12] much for being with us.
[00:40:13] Well, you know, thank you for
[00:40:14] having me and I should
[00:40:15] probably say something. I
[00:40:16] just thought of it because
[00:40:16] it just launched this week.
[00:40:18] We did a 16 session video
[00:40:20] curriculum for this book on
[00:40:22] right now media. It's also
[00:40:24] available through Zondervin.
[00:40:25] You'll see it on Amazon.
[00:40:27] So it's the video version of
[00:40:28] this book with the
[00:40:29] participants guide with all
[00:40:30] the fillings and all that's
[00:40:32] perfect related related
[00:40:34] scripture. All that stuff is
[00:40:35] in there and it just released.
[00:40:37] So I guess it's so new that
[00:40:39] I haven't you know, haven't
[00:40:40] been thinking about it. But
[00:40:41] yeah, hopefully that'll help
[00:40:42] you if you are going to do
[00:40:43] this in the context of a
[00:40:44] church. Yeah, I love it. Hey,
[00:40:47] thanks so much for being
[00:40:48] with us and hope we'll have
[00:40:49] have you back on again
[00:40:49] sometime.
[00:40:50] Hey, thanks so much for
[00:40:51] having me. I appreciate you.
[00:40:54] Well, Jason, there's so
[00:40:54] much there that's worthy of
[00:40:56] our time and attention. And
[00:40:57] I just grateful to have
[00:40:58] Jay Warner Wallace on with
[00:41:00] us again sharing about his
[00:41:01] work and his latest book
[00:41:02] and kind of where I was
[00:41:04] struck the most is kind of
[00:41:05] where we were landing the
[00:41:06] conversation around a
[00:41:07] changing or shifting way of
[00:41:09] thinking about apologetics
[00:41:10] and how do we help people
[00:41:14] share their faith and give
[00:41:15] a good reason for their
[00:41:16] faith. And so there's the
[00:41:17] classical apologetics that
[00:41:19] we still need to be steeped
[00:41:20] in and understand. But
[00:41:21] there's something about just
[00:41:22] making it as simple as
[00:41:24] saying, here's how Jesus
[00:41:25] has impacted my life and
[00:41:27] been a benefit to me in the
[00:41:28] real life in the real world
[00:41:29] that I'm living in and
[00:41:30] helping people to see faith
[00:41:32] through that lens may give
[00:41:34] them an opportunity to come
[00:41:35] and explore faith in Jesus
[00:41:36] more. And so I appreciate
[00:41:38] that sense of sort of the
[00:41:39] nuances of apologetics in
[00:41:41] our times. It's not just
[00:41:42] the same truth propositions.
[00:41:44] It has to be somehow more
[00:41:46] personally connected into the
[00:41:48] lived experience of those
[00:41:49] we're engaging with.
[00:41:50] Yeah, I liked how he framed
[00:41:51] it. He said, you know,
[00:41:52] when he was kind of coming
[00:41:54] up, it was is it true? And
[00:41:55] now it's is it good? I
[00:41:56] think that spot on that
[00:41:57] feels spot onto me. But
[00:41:59] you know, so how do we
[00:42:00] show in the marketplace of
[00:42:03] ideas that Christianity or
[00:42:04] following Jesus is the better
[00:42:06] way? And I think if if
[00:42:08] that's the focus or the
[00:42:10] posture, I think that's more
[00:42:12] effective than everybody
[00:42:15] else is wrong. And here's
[00:42:17] why we're right. Maybe it's
[00:42:18] a subtle difference, but
[00:42:19] it's powerful. Yeah, because
[00:42:21] it puts it changes it from
[00:42:23] a defensive position to I
[00:42:24] actually want something good
[00:42:25] for you to write where I'm
[00:42:27] trying to convince and
[00:42:27] persuade you of something.
[00:42:29] But no, I want this
[00:42:30] for your benefit for the
[00:42:32] sake of something good in
[00:42:33] your life, you're flourishing.
[00:42:34] I do think that is a is a
[00:42:36] healthy thing and we can
[00:42:37] still get to the truth
[00:42:38] proposition aspects that are
[00:42:39] so important. But where do
[00:42:41] we begin? Maybe it's the
[00:42:41] starting point that needs
[00:42:42] to shift in our hearts and
[00:42:44] minds. Yeah, good stuff, man.
[00:42:45] It was so good, good to
[00:42:47] connect with him again. And
[00:42:48] I hope everyone goes out and
[00:42:49] gets the book. I do think
[00:42:51] that resource I'm kind of
[00:42:52] excited about that resource
[00:42:53] as a small group resource.
[00:42:55] And then again, maybe
[00:42:56] putting the book in my
[00:42:58] kids hands or someone's
[00:42:59] grandkids hands, college kids
[00:43:01] hands just to start thinking
[00:43:03] through these things because
[00:43:05] it's it really is like
[00:43:08] there's so much information
[00:43:10] we talk about all the time.
[00:43:11] But there's all this
[00:43:12] information and it hasn't
[00:43:13] made us any smarter because
[00:43:15] we need interpretation, you
[00:43:16] know, we need application.
[00:43:18] So I think this book is a
[00:43:20] step in that direction.
[00:43:21] So again, the truth
[00:43:24] in true crime. Hope
[00:43:25] everybody gets that book.
[00:43:26] Any last thoughts before
[00:43:27] we sign off today?
[00:43:29] No, just looking forward to
[00:43:30] more conversations.
[00:43:31] Great for all the ways we get
[00:43:33] to talk shop and we keep
[00:43:34] learning and growing along
[00:43:35] the way too. So hope this is
[00:43:36] useful for everybody listening
[00:43:38] in and we're glad to have you
[00:43:39] part of the reclaim
[00:43:40] leader conversations.
[00:43:42] And as we say, as we sign
[00:43:43] off every time because it
[00:43:44] is true and maybe today
[00:43:46] feels true for you more
[00:43:47] than ever. But ministry is
[00:43:49] hard. It is so much better
[00:43:51] when we do it together.