[00:00:00] So all of our my focus in my ministry practice is focused on the root of the tree, the intimate attachment to Jesus, the branch and the vine. All of it's focused on that because if that becomes a secure attachment,
[00:00:15] then the life of the vine flows up through the branches and produces fruit naturally. Instead of the way we do it, which is my metaphor for the conventional way we do this as we duct tape fruit onto our branches. Welcome to episode 346.
[00:00:30] Today we welcome back Rick Lawrence to the podcast. In his new book, Editing Jesus, he argues that the primary reason for church decline is in cultural, it's spiritual. We talk about why we must reclaim the unedited Jesus, that's today on the Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:47] Hey everyone, welcome to the Reclaimed Leader Podcast. Two pastors who are passionate about leading change in their churches, trying to create healthy churches and helping other pastors to do the same. I'm Jason Tucker back again with Jesse Skiffington, how's it going, Jesse?
[00:01:07] I'm doing okay, Jason, we're in a trenches trying to make it happen. Yeah, leading change, trying to be revitalized, healthy congregation. It's an ongoing challenge. It's something that has lots of starting points certainly, but then lots of continuing points along
[00:01:23] the way to maintain that healthiness and to move toward the things that the Lord wants us to be about and to bear fruit for the kingdom and do all that stuff that we hope happens in our communities where we experience that benefits the joy, the gospel,
[00:01:35] but also an impact in our community and all of those kinds of things that we want to see. So I'm grateful for our conversations and look forward to diving in today.
[00:01:44] As we're thinking about how do you do this and what are some of the things that maybe we need to push back against sometimes that creep into the life of the church? And that's really where our conversations go in today.
[00:01:55] Yeah, I'm excited. We welcome back to the podcast Rick Lawrence who Rick was on the podcast gosh, like probably like seven years ago or something. I think he mentioned that in the interview. But I think this conversation, you know as we were going through it is a pretty
[00:02:10] convicting one. I met Rick years ago through group publishing for those who don't know group. Of course, they make the vacation by the school curriculum that most churches use. But at the time, they were close to or at least one of two between you specialties in group
[00:02:28] magazine. They were the leading voices in youth ministry for a couple of decades. And I met Rick when group was doing a group magazine live one day training event tour and I was one of the presenters.
[00:02:44] So each presenter got a city and we would go and we would do our thing and deliver the program. And that's why I met him and he was always one of the most forward thinking smartest guys who just was 100% all out for Jesus.
[00:03:02] And I always appreciated that and always appreciated him and looked up to him in that way. And he wrote this book that, you know, I found out about it and gave him a call and it's so good called Editing Jesus. And so we're going to talk about that.
[00:03:19] We're talking about his book in this conversation and really dive into what every church is facing and that is the potential of decline in this post-Christian culture. And he makes an interesting point. We're going to get to and not to steal that thunder too much, Jesse.
[00:03:34] But I wonder since we interviewed him, I've been thinking about this, that he claims it's not a culture problem. It's a spiritual problem. Which I thought was pretty. Yeah, that's pretty spot on.
[00:03:47] Yeah, yeah, so he's going to get into that and I really appreciate his willingness to speak frankly about some things that creep into the church or half-crupt into the church and at cost to the mission that we're called to be about.
[00:03:59] And so yeah, convicting challenging food for thought. You may not agree with everything you hear, maybe you will. I don't know, but really important to have these kind of think through these kinds of things.
[00:04:10] And what ways are we getting in the way of the real true genuine Jesus at the center of the gospel? Yeah, so let me introduce Rick and we'll get into our interview together. Rick is the executive director of vibrant faith.
[00:04:26] They come alongside ministry leaders to resource, train coach and conduct large scale research projects. Rick is the author of 40 books and curriculums and a speaker ministry leader and trainer for three decades. He led the youth ministry, resourceing and training mission of group publishing.
[00:04:43] He was the executive director of group magazine and while he was there, he helped launch a line of books and resources for adults called Jesus centered. He's also the creator in host of a podcast called Pain Ridiculous Attention to Jesus.
[00:04:56] I love that name, which is now in its sixth season and his new book, Editing Jesus, confronting the distorted faith of the American church is available right now. And as our topic for today, and let's get into our interview with Rick Lawrence.
[00:05:10] Well, we are so excited to have back to the podcast, Rick Lawrence, Rick, welcome back, man. It's been a while. Yeah, thank you Jason. Thank you, Jesse. I love hanging out with you every six or seven years. We get that a lot. That's it.
[00:05:25] It goes a long way. Well, I'm really excited about this book. Editing Jesus, I think it is a very timely book. It's a book that I was actually talking about doing a sermon series on. I'm a little bit nervous to do it prior to the election,
[00:05:45] only because I know people already can be ramped up. And yet at the same time, it's kind of a perfect time to do it and we'll get into that and do course. But before we get into the book, which again, Rick, I think is really, really good.
[00:05:58] And I'm excited that it's going to get into people's hands. But just to back up for those who don't remember six or seven years ago when you were on the podcast or may not be familiar with their work for three decades.
[00:06:10] You led the youth ministry, resourcing and training mission of group publishing. And that's how we met. You were executive editor of group magazine. And for those who may not kind of know you yet, tell us a bit about your story.
[00:06:23] How did you now get to this place where your team dealt with vibrant faith? Well, thanks for asking me that. So the other thing I did sort of in the last, I guess, 10-ish years at group live was there for 33 years.
[00:06:38] The other thing is I was general editor of a Bible called the Jesus Center Bible. It came out just after I had published a book. I had published a book called Jesus Center Youth Ministry.
[00:06:51] And the Bible became like this massive best-selling Bible that a lot of people bought. It has some interesting features in it that aren't in any other Bible, like blue letters in the Old Testament that went to Jesus all over the Old Testament.
[00:07:07] So I got involved in that and that just sort of accidentally morphed into a new area of focus for me. So I kept all my youth ministry responsibilities, but I started leading this. So what you might call a don't ministry area that was all centered around that.
[00:07:25] Those two words with a hyphen between them. Jesus centered. And so that's what I was doing all of that toward the end of my time there.
[00:07:34] And during the pandemic group hit a wall because vacation Bible school that group is such a huge part of what their mission is and what their ministry is. And that went away.
[00:07:54] So if you can imagine you have something that represents like half of your organization's revenue, and it suddenly goes away. And that meant after about three months that half the staff had to leave and half the staff was laid off and I was one of those.
[00:08:13] Along with a bunch of other people that had been there a long time. And so in the interim, I was finishing a book at the time called the Suicide Solution.
[00:08:22] So in a strange way it happened at a good time for me because I wrote full time for the first time in my life. The friend of a friend who told me about this open position by faith.
[00:08:35] I knew about them for a long time there's small organization they used to be called the Youth and Family Institute founded by Dr. Martin Straumman. And the focus is really on elevating the role of family in youth ministry.
[00:08:51] So I'd known people in that organization for a long time and through a four month interview process, National Interview Process. I ended up getting selected for that. So it's a small training, resource, and coaching, and research organization.
[00:09:07] We do a lot of work in churches through grants with the Lillian D'Alment. And we, I'm developing resources and trainings for church leaders. So my focus is broadened out from youth ministry for these last four years into all of the church.
[00:09:26] And the vibrant face current kind of spotlight on the body of Christ is in the mainline church, which is the part of the church that's struggling the most right now.
[00:09:38] So it's been a fascinating ride. I'm executive director, so I'm in charge of everything for the first time. So yeah, I think you know, toy the tail end of my career Jesus said, you know what?
[00:09:51] How about if you be in charge of everything for a while and see if that feels like. So that's where I am. Yeah, that's really cool. And all that wisdom from all those years to what you're doing now and I'm pretty sure that they also.
[00:10:05] Theoretically, that would be true. Yes. Well, and so this book is interesting to me because my first of all, I just found it funny that you were a editor for so long and you write a book called Editing Jesus.
[00:10:19] But, but you know, it's wondering this book feels like it's in the same trajectory as you've always been. But it's it's much more directly pointed at some of the issues going on that have led to you know, we've read all about church decline and and all of that.
[00:10:37] And we've seen all this statistics, but I think what you do is you really name some of the things that have contributed to it, especially with younger generations.
[00:10:47] What was the impetus for writing this book? I mean, what's the big problem that you saw that you really wanted to tackle? Yeah, so about I don't know, five or six years, seven years ago, something like that.
[00:11:00] I have a friend whose name is Dave Ron, Dr. Dave Ron, he's a professor at the University of the University of the Street Practitioner and VP of youth for Christ. His son-in-law, Jake Land, at that time was kind of a mid-level leader at youth for Christ.
[00:11:16] And it just moved to Denver and it asked me to start meeting with Jake to kind of have a mentoring relationship with him.
[00:11:22] So Jake and I met for a year and developed quickly a very kindred relationship. And he absolutely loved the things that I was about all things Jesus centered was a huge attraction for him.
[00:11:34] Well, I'll fast forward a few more years and Jake became the the youngest president of youth for Christ in its history. Thank you, it's 32 when he was named President of Youth for Christ. He's just a really brilliant savvy, amazing young leader.
[00:11:49] And a couple years after that happened year or two after that happened out of the blue he asked me if I would be on a hour long Q&A with all of youth for Christ's leaders across the country.
[00:12:01] And gave me the questions ahead of time we were going to talk about and it was a great interview at the end he asked me a question that he hadn't told me was going to ask me.
[00:12:11] He said, Rick, all of the challenges facing the church today, what is the challenge we need to pay attention to the most? And I just paused for a second and then I said editing Jesus.
[00:12:26] And he said, okay, what do you mean by that? And I spent about 10 minutes talking about what I meant by that which is that the real problem in the church.
[00:12:36] It's not a decline and if you read the book you'll see that I prefer the word pruning because pruning is representative gods agency and what's happening in the church. We're not just failing as a business. There's something happening in God's hand is behind it, I believe.
[00:12:56] It's not all the surface ways we think about why the church is in decline. The cultural reasons, the controversies, the conflicts.
[00:13:04] It's really what I was trying to say is we have veered away from Jesus as he really is and have now presented to people in the church a Jesus who isn't.
[00:13:16] The Jesus that is most often framed in churches today isn't the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of our experience. And so when that happens, God pulls out his pruning tears.
[00:13:29] I mean, there's two times in the New Testament when we hear the audible voice of God, he says, this is my son. I'm really pleased with him. Listen to him.
[00:13:41] That is his message to the church simply. This is my son. I'm really pleased with him. So my son is beautiful. He's amazing. This is what God is trying to say. So listen to him. So when we stop listening to the real Jesus, the pruning tears come out.
[00:13:58] And so this book is an attempt then after after I answered that way for about 10 minutes later Jake messaged me and said, oh my gosh, my phone's blowing up.
[00:14:09] Everybody wants to know more about what you're talking about. And so is the first moment I thought, all right, Jesus, is this something you want me to pursue? And if it is what what it is, look like and three years later at a book.
[00:14:22] So the book has eight chapters. There are my stab at eight ways the church and we as Christians have edited Jesus into someone he's not eight different lenses into that.
[00:14:34] And the real part of the book is if that's so then what is what is the true Jesus and what are the ways of Jesus?
[00:14:43] What does it really mean to follow him if this way is edited and this way is not what does that look like for us to follow him.
[00:14:51] So every chapter has about a third to a half of the chapter that's about that just what are the ways of Jesus and each chapter has about a page and a half of either reflection or small group discussion. Or small group discussion questions. Yeah.
[00:15:06] And I got to tell you this book does not mince words and I love that about it. I mean truly so there were times when, you know as I'm reading through the book and I'm seeing some of these topics, just by the way you you hit the big ones right you talk about the exclusivity inclusivity of the of God's love you talk about poverty materialism platforming the deprioratizing of justice etc.
[00:15:32] In sort of all these things that the church has made Jesus to incorrectly be and I want, well, I'm up.
[00:15:43] People to buy the book into drill down and all these by just wanted to drill down on a couple just as by way of example and the first one I think is just one of the most relevant ones to right now in this in real time we're in the middle of yet another contentious political cycle.
[00:15:59] But thinking about the idolatry of nation state worship. So just to kind of give give our folks an idea of the book, what is the problem and what is the major edit or even reduction that we see churches make about Jesus for this particular issue?
[00:16:19] Yeah, there's a there's a continuum here for around our what you might call our power involvement through politics and other meetings in in order to affect change in our culture at the far end of the continuum is Christian nationalism.
[00:16:37] So, you know, there's a there's about a third of America has some level of agreement with the tenants of Christian nationalism.
[00:16:47] So that's a lot of people and what this chapter it's the one that kicks off the book I had a kind of a debate with the editorial staff for the publisher about which chapter would be first because they were nervous about this one being the first one.
[00:17:02] Because of if you start reading it and you don't like it, you put down the book and I said well they'll put down the book in chapter five too. So what differences it may might as well be the low hanging fruit right out of the gate.
[00:17:15] In the reasons low hanging fruit we all know just as you said we have an issue in the church today that is creating almost a 50 50 division. And depending on the denomination you come from it's not a 50 50 division, it's more like 80 20.
[00:17:31] And the problem is that the ways in which we are trying to exercise power or embrace power are diametrically opposed to the example of Jesus. So in the book I reflect back on what Abraham and Sarah did.
[00:17:50] You know they're promised something we believe as American Christians we're promised something we're promised a Christian nation. It's not happening so because it's not happening maybe God expects us to make it happen and that's what Abraham and Sarah did they made it happen.
[00:18:09] And in making it happen having Abraham go into a car, Sarah is servant. Birthed you know the greatest division we have in the world today between two two religions. And what came out of that union was heartbreak and division and all kinds of terrible fruit.
[00:18:33] And so I make the comparison that we are no different we're impatient with God let's make it happen.
[00:18:40] And by making it happen what we have adopted is a is a deception on so many levels we have decided that we can force people to be morally good or force people to be in relationship with God.
[00:18:57] And it's just contrary to everything that is in the Trinity's redemptive mission in our lives.
[00:19:05] That redemptive mission is marked by wooing because the problem we have is a relational problem we we we have betrayal in our relationship and you cannot not flip a switch and bring back intimacy into that relationship.
[00:19:21] And so that's why I believe God said pay attention to my son because by paying attention to Jesus we learn what the kingdom God is like.
[00:19:30] We learn what life for us is like how do we live in two kingdoms the kingdom of the world kingdom of God at the same time. How do we live out the priorities and values of that kingdom?
[00:19:42] And one of those priorities and values has to do with power in the power displayed by Jesus over and over again was not what we do. Every time he had an opportunity to take advantage of his momentum and mount an insurrection.
[00:20:01] He either escaped alone or he did something in John 6 that was guaranteed to destroy that plan which was when people asked him. So you know what does it mean to follow you he said 11 times without really explaining it you got to eat my body and drink my blood.
[00:20:22] Which served to vacate the 10,000 people on that mountain side that were listening to Jesus and Ron his team all of a sudden they're off his team and the disciples are going what just happened here.
[00:20:34] And Jesus asked him are you going to leave too because I was entirely possible they did not understand what he did either but in every way when there was a movement toward.
[00:20:47] The kind of power displayed that we have embraced in our culture and our Christian culture Jesus declined it out at it and resisted it. So that means for us this is not the way of Jesus what is the way of Jesus then is the question yeah.
[00:21:06] Man that's good. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, it's almost done packed there but we'll leave people to dive into that and think more.
[00:21:15] I even now I'm just thinking about how how do we inadvertently participate in that you know and what are we doing to really show the unedited Jesus. That has this upside down kind of kingdom that's not of this world and it's a whole other way of thinking.
[00:21:30] And specifically yeah for go ahead. Oh go ahead Jesus. No for like you know mainline churches which is very much filled with my field isn't the right word populated by.
[00:21:43] Folks many of whom served in the military served in World War II who if I hear about it if the American flag is not in the sanctuary.
[00:21:54] God and country and while on the one hand respecting the sacrifices they made for freedom to worship God and on the other hand to fight the constant idolatry of. God and country mentality is is a real challenge it's it's a real challenge for many churches.
[00:22:14] Yeah and and you know that I in the book I say the constitution is a is a genuine marvel. It is respected by people all over the world for its brilliance in the people who wrote that constitution.
[00:22:31] The common myth is that they were all followers of Jesus and that's some of the roots of why we can embrace this kind of mentality but the truth is they weren't. They were deists.
[00:22:44] They were some of them are culturally Christian a few of them were followers of Jesus there's a difference between Christ and them and following Jesus those two things so these these are man who who wrote the constitution.
[00:22:59] The source in the thinking of other social thinkers at their time. But not sourced in the modeling and teaching of Jesus primarily so the constitution is amazing but it's not scripture.
[00:23:16] And somewhere along the way we have equated the two and it's a form of idolatry to do that.
[00:23:24] That's when you said the book doesn't mince words that's that's all you can do is state the truth and the truth is that the constitution isn't safe and scripture so don't treat it like that the two aren't equivalent.
[00:23:40] But how critically important for us as pastors to have this sort of posture going into these issues to tell people understand that it isn't so binary one way or the other but but Jesus was just.
[00:23:57] It's increasingly it's like simple and complicated it's simple but profound it's this constant sort of like dismantling of culture and and also affirming culture where it can be affirmed. And I just think that's one of the reasons I really am enjoying this book.
[00:24:17] I think another topic that you talk about that just really resonated with me was this idea that there's this danger of reducing faith growth and I think you said something like. 30 years or maybe 50 years whatever you said of church attendance taught you that.
[00:24:34] Faith Grove is like a series of principles to master. And man that was so good can you just unpack that a little bit. Yeah, so it's interesting you bring that up because most of the attention on the book.
[00:24:50] Initially is with that first chapter because there's so much you know obvious issues that are surrounding that and there's so much emotion around that those issues but really the the chapter that because is most difficult.
[00:25:05] For I would say ministry leaders whether volunteer staff is is this chapter called the problem with principles and that the essence the the foundation of that chapter is that.
[00:25:20] What we have unconsciously adopted as the American church as our path transformation is understanding biblical principles and applying them to our life. I think if we asked all church going people in America right now who went to church on last Sunday.
[00:25:40] If they heard the word application or apply in the sermon on Sunday about 80 to 90% of them would raise their hand. Because this is the commonly accepted formula for how we want people to grow is we just lay out the principles usually there's three of them.
[00:25:59] And and once we've done that we show people how to apply them to their lives and in the book I kind of added this at the at the very end of the writing process because I didn't want to come off snarky.
[00:26:13] But in the I added it anyway, I just said think about the sermon you just heard on Sunday if you went to church. What we use supposed to understand first of all can you remember what you were supposed to understand.
[00:26:25] Secondly, what were you supposed to apply out of that understanding and third have you applied it.
[00:26:32] And in the book I say if you're like most people the answer is maybe I have a little snippet in answer to the first question of what I remember it was supposed to be about.
[00:26:46] I remember what I was supposed to apply but I have not done any of those applications at all and next Sunday I'll get a whole new set. Yeah, this system that we've used is embedded in our curriculums in our sermons in our retreats.
[00:27:01] Every resource most Christian living books and it is not the way of Jesus. This is not how we brought transformation. The relational strategy it is a head strategy and I have a daughter in medical school right now.
[00:27:17] It's you know, it's like the hardest educational experience you can have is is medical school and she's got a jam all this information in but the real the real Break through the real transformational stuff that happens with her medical school is her practice what she is practicing.
[00:27:39] What she is doing and sometimes she has professors that do things that are experiential and interactive but it's rare. It's mostly just jamed lectures, but the only way she's learning to be a doctor is by the opportunity she's had to live live out experientially what that means.
[00:27:58] So that's what Jesus did it he invited people into a relational experience with him. So somewhere along the way I can't remember exactly who was in the editorial process of the book but they were pushing back on this chapter that we're talking about right now and
[00:28:14] Exasperated this person said well what the heck would pastors talk about on Sunday if they couldn't talk about principle. I don't understand what you're saying.
[00:28:24] And I said I know what sounds radical. I get it but my what I do in my own ministry and what I try to help mentor other pastoral leaders to do is to in every way.
[00:28:38] Frame the beauty of Jesus over and over and over again because what we're really wanting to do is give people an on ramp into a magnetic relationship with him.
[00:28:49] And if they're not hearing and experiencing Jesus has he really is they're going to ignore him because the Jesus we're giving them right now is not all that interesting.
[00:29:01] But once you strip away the edited version of him and show him for who he is he's magnetic the Bible says you're either drawn to him or you're repelled by him.
[00:29:12] You're either passionate for him or you're a post by him. That's what we want every single week in church we want that reaction either a passionate magnetic attraction to him or I'm repulsed by that. The reason why is that that's what Jesus was comfortable with himself.
[00:29:32] I mean that's exactly the reactions he had himself. Yeah, that's really good so doing a better job at pointing to Jesus pointing to how beautiful and good Jesus is in the relational invitation to belong to him and learn from him.
[00:29:46] I need to go rewrite my sermon for Sunday so I'm going to have to sign up. No you're a truly, it's a challenge and receiving a not way going. Okay yeah, you were talking about the retention of your readers.
[00:30:00] I'm like what is the sermon I just preached and how much has that influence of application and next steps impacted and influenced the way that I communicate. Yeah, so it's a good challenge to really wrestle with and we presenting just how beautiful and good Jesus is.
[00:30:16] I think we had to guess down a couple weeks ago that said people aren't so much interested is it true but is it good is Jesus good and beautiful. And that's that's profound and one thing there too Jesse.
[00:30:30] As I because I've mentioned pastors into this kind of way of thinking there's a million different ways to go after the beauty of Jesus you'll never run out of possibilities create a possibilities for doing it but.
[00:30:42] But you're the all congregations now are used to sitting down and hearing this rhythm. So when you start changing this rhythm, there's going to be a little bit of like what because it feels like you just got something it feels like you just got a meal.
[00:30:59] When you hear that that understand and apply mentality and then you realize about 10 minutes after you leave church, you're really hungry.
[00:31:08] So there was something in the meal that was not satisfying but they're used to that being served those meals and so it's a process of shifting to this new way of thinking.
[00:31:19] But as you do my experience even mentoring other pastors is people leave filled up with something because they got something solid which is the heart of Jesus. Yeah, that's really good.
[00:31:34] How do you think Rick how is this something that I thought about as I was reading and I was thinking about gospel contextualization I was thinking how is editing Jesus different from making the word flesh like trying to land.
[00:31:50] The logical truth into the culture we find ourselves in. In other words, do you think there's a line there and what do you think that line is. Yeah, that's great. I can only tell you what my. Practice and inclination is so I have a.
[00:32:11] For 10 years I've led a weekly I call it a home church because it's not a small group we have about two dozen young people when we started it.
[00:32:19] It was middle schoolers high schoolers and college students now it's college students and career people they're all young adults from all different denominations all different schools.
[00:32:32] And it's experiential and interactive and the mission of the group is pursuing the heart of Jesus not his recipes let me say that again pursuing the heart of Jesus not his recipes what we've done suddenly is said hey. I'm.
[00:32:51] Who's a great chef a guy theory he has some great recipes but all I really want is his recipe book oh I could meet him and spend time with them.
[00:33:03] I'm not really interested in that just give me his recipes I'll follow him at home so we wouldn't do that in real life if we had the opportunity to meet somebody who was a master chef we would want to learn in their presence.
[00:33:17] But in a sense that that that's kind of what we've done and so in this group that I lead it's interactive and experiential is a way of. Trying to go after the heart of Jesus together and I've been doing it for 10 years so.
[00:33:32] This question of making the word flesh and how do you land it in culture I believe that relevance.
[00:33:40] It isn't really at its core cultural relevance it's relational relevance so if you if you think about from let's say from a youth passage perspective there's a lot of pressure to be relevant.
[00:33:53] So that you feel like your voice as a place in the culture of young people I have discovered over time that they don't give a rip about that what they care what what's relevant is when their heart is moved.
[00:34:09] When they have experienced or tasted and seen the goodness of Jesus in a way they didn't before when there in a group pursuing something that I've given them to go after about the heart of Jesus.
[00:34:23] And insight bubbles up in them and it's transformational you can feel it in the room somehow the spirit just enabled.
[00:34:32] Someone to see something they had never seen before and I've never seen before you can feel the electricity in the room and that feels like relevance that feels like now my life going out of here can be different than it was before.
[00:34:48] And it's really I focus on the root of the tree because if you get the root of the tree right then life flows up through it into the branches and produces root naturally.
[00:34:59] So all of our my focus in in my ministry practice is focused on the root of the tree the intimate attachment to Jesus the branch in the vine.
[00:35:09] All of it's focused on that because if that becomes a secure attachment then the life of the vine flows up through the branches and produces fruit naturally.
[00:35:19] Instead of the way we do it which is my metaphor for the conventional way we do this is we duct tape fruit onto our branches.
[00:35:26] We decide what fruit we want and we wrap some duct tape around it and put it on the branch and if you stand far enough back, you can say oh there's a fruit tree but it's so much work.
[00:35:38] And Jesus said my burden is light my yoke is easy why doesn't it feel like that then. I think it's because if we just focused on the root of the tree the fruit comes naturally that's the easy part of it.
[00:35:52] So that's what I do it's risky when I share with other ministry leaders what I do they're like you've got to be kidding me but I have.
[00:36:02] I'm all in I've invested myself in this approach and I have to say I've just seen the most remarkable transformational amazing fruit. I mean since I've been doing this I used to do it the old way.
[00:36:16] I was just like everyone else really I mean I thought I was just doing my best to be like everyone else and I changed about 20 years ago and since then I've just seen an explosion of fruit. Through what I do so that's awesome I think.
[00:36:35] You know it sounds to me like editing Jesus is all about sort of trying to make Jesus what is most palatable to us and whatever our. Our desires are or our agendas are and you know gospel translation is about the only agenda being the gospel itself and.
[00:36:58] In its fullness not in it's kind of redacted version but you can sort of understand why people want to edit Jesus because you know they wanted to fit whatever their. They're narrated narrative is but it's so pervasive.
[00:37:13] And I think you do a good job of of rooting a lot of that out in this book. Yeah and if and if you do this if you edit him what you're doing is is creating a non person.
[00:37:24] Yeah and you don't have a Jesus to relate to them because you've you've presented people someone who doesn't exist. So that's that's the importance to all that the start of that chapter on principles.
[00:37:37] I quote Dallas Willard I heard him in person with like a small group of 20 or 30 ministry leaders probably a decade ago.
[00:37:46] And out out of the blue he just started saying what I've just said to you after his long sojourn as a theologian in the church he said we have totally missed. How Jesus thinks transformation happens.
[00:38:00] We have reduced this to principles and rules and guidelines and practical things to follow instead of what he clearly said. And then he quotes I'm the vine you're the branch abide in me remain in me this is this is my way.
[00:38:17] So if if we're thinking about ministry leadership it to me it translates to in what ways can I help people abide and remain in Jesus throughout our ministry that is our singular goal. And it kind of reduces down your strategic planning.
[00:38:38] If if what you're really doing is saying how can we more and more every week help people to abide or remain in Jesus because if we do that.
[00:38:48] His life will flow up in the individuals in our congregation fruit will show up and you get thrown in for his own relationships at the same time.
[00:38:58] As you grow vertically you grow horizontally. This is just the grace of Jesus that as you grow closer to him with others your bond horizontally with others very much deepens so you get the kind of thriving you've always you've always wanted but your past strategic plans didn't deliver.
[00:39:18] You know this we're just about out of time we're going to wrap things up but I was thinking about to I think some pastors are afraid that people particularly young people are afraid of the hard hard hitting subjects.
[00:39:33] That we have to somehow make it more palatable to them and I was thinking about this we were doing a men study in our church that's filled with mostly older millennials.
[00:39:45] And we did a whole and it's a very you know high income area we're doing we're studying James and we're up to James five about the warning to the rich oppressors.
[00:39:56] And you know in that line you know you have lived on earth in luxury and self indulgence and you've fattened yourself in the day of slaughter.
[00:40:02] And I think Eugene Peterson's great on this he says you're becoming a fatter than usual corpse like I don't know it's he had such a way with where it. But that sounds like Eugene Peterson.
[00:40:13] I hear a little nervous to go there but you know what we had guys literally like repenting.
[00:40:19] And it's not that they were oppressing or not paying people their wages as as that scripture talks about but they were feeling it and and there was so much as you say fruit in that.
[00:40:30] I don't think it's that it's at younger generations or afraid of those kinds of topics in fact I think they crave them.
[00:40:37] Yeah well and in all things we go back if we're followers of Jesus and all things we go back to what he's invited us into which is to.
[00:40:49] Walk in his footsteps the reason he was a rabbi he was called rabbi is that his followers left what they were doing to be in his presence. And so that's the time for three three years well that's not that unusual.
[00:41:06] A talment or a student back in the day who got attached to a rabbi would leave their family and their occupation whatever it was. And attacks themselves to that rabbi and live in the same home with their rabbi the point was a relational infection.
[00:41:21] So that's what the disciples did they were relationally infected by Jesus by being close to him. That produced transformational changing them even even while they did not understand a lot of what he was teaching.
[00:41:37] What they what they knew in their core was here's someone who is disruptive at in his very nature every time he opens his mouth he says something I didn't expect.
[00:41:51] Every time he does something he didn't do it the lat the same way the last time he did that he was so hard to pin down.
[00:41:59] Because he was always responding to the person in front of him with what that person most needed and they got very used to. And acclimated to disruption. Yeah, I love in the chosen I love that series by the way it's the best portrayal of Jesus I've ever seen.
[00:42:16] I've done through the chosen but there's an early in season one Peter's Peter is frustrated with him I can't even remember the scene I think it was after he called Matthew. Peter's frustrated with him and he said this is not how we do things.
[00:42:31] This is different and and the writers really at writers of that show gave Jesus a line that's not inscriptions but it could have been Jesus response to Peter is get used to different.
[00:42:45] I love that that is the effect that he has so so you can call it hard topics you can call it difficult you can call it whatever you want.
[00:42:54] But if it's embedded in the example and teaching of Jesus then it's going to be disruptive and some people will absolutely gravitate to that and some people will be repelled. Man, thank you so much Rick.
[00:43:10] It's so much more than if it could get into I want everyone to get this book editing Jesus how can people track with you if they want to see like what you're doing what's going on where are you around.
[00:43:19] Yeah, you can go to I have my own website such as it is it's Rick Moron's dot com. You can go there and the organization I lead vibrant faith that that website is vibrantfaith.org.
[00:43:33] There's a bunch of stuff on there right right a weekly blog that comes out of vibrant faith so you can go to our website and sign up for the blog bit get our email list.
[00:43:43] And you can and I you know I write about Jesus in my in my blog so if you're interested in this you can. I don't know over to vibrantfaith dot org and you can get the book anywhere like it's on Amazon and all the usual suspects so.
[00:43:59] Well, thanks again Rick again I want everyone to get this book thanks for taking your time with us today and man hope we get to talk soon. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Jesse thanks Jason so loved being with you.
[00:44:13] Jason so good to have Rick with us and convicting challenging message for sure and we were talking after we recorded just this idea of getting back to what is most important and for us we kind of resonated around that image.
[00:44:27] Of really going leading people deeply into connection with Jesus and I kind of the root and letting everything else grow from there. And I know that kind of stood out to you in our conversation.
[00:44:38] It did I think it really stuck to me when he was talking about you know paying attention to the root and and. Jesus Christ and how the fruit will naturally flow upward from the roots and how we may have a tendency to.
[00:44:53] When we have unhealthy roots this sort of tape fruit to the tree and from a distance it looks good but but not really I think there's something to that that he was getting at that I think is really important and. I feel like.
[00:45:07] I don't think you and I have the source of churches or the sorts of. Leadership where we're intentionally doing anything of the sort, but I do think a lot of the things that he brought up just subtly creep in.
[00:45:23] I think it could become less about the root and more about. Sort of unspoken or even unconscious agendas that we might have to push something forward whether we mean it we probably don't mean mean it in a bad way but I'm just wondering.
[00:45:39] I think it's just a good corrective it's something to think about and to remember that. The fruits going to come if we are just kind of his podcast name if we pay ridiculously close attention to Jesus.
[00:45:51] Then that's going to happen. I just think there's something really really good and important in that.
[00:45:55] Yeah, and some ways it's a freeing idea because there's this let's just be humble enough to say hey we don't have all the answers and we're going to need Jesus to be active through the power presence of the Holy Spirit to make the things happen here that matter most.
[00:46:08] I think there's for me there is a sense of relief in that it's not just how get on my act doing stuff or how.
[00:46:16] How can I even protect the church from some of the things that it warns us about it's how can I do how am I doing it leading and ushering people into a living relationship with a living Lord Jesus and trusting that him to bear the fruit through us so.
[00:46:29] I think it's just it's an encouragement that we're not in it alone that the spirit is moving and working and our job is to point to Jesus and help people to go deeper into that relationship.
[00:46:39] Yeah, and again a lot of good hard hitting topics I'm still on the fence if I'm going to do a sermon series and probably going to check in out but.
[00:46:46] Maybe maybe to come later after the election I don't know why I got to I got to I'll pray on that. Anyway, I hope you all enjoyed this episode.
[00:46:56] I certainly did make sure that you get Rick's book and we're going to do a follow up episode here next week that talks about something we didn't really get a chance to get to and that is really what what he was pointing towards is.
[00:47:11] One of the reasons why young people are turned off by church is because the Jesus that they meet at church is not the Jesus that they meet in scripture and they're trying to figure out how did they reconcile that or they just think.
[00:47:25] I'm going to do with that so we're specifically going to talk about some things about young adult ministry next week.
[00:47:30] I hope you join us for that and again if you're enjoying this podcast it'd be great if you let us a review it helps people to find us and we'd love to talk with you to Jason or Jesse at reclaimed leader.com anything else before we sign off or today.
[00:47:45] I think you covered all the territory thanks for listening in and look forward to kidding keeping the conversation going here in the coming weeks. Alright everyone as we always say ministry is hard it is so much better when we do it together.