[00:00:00] Young adults seem to be attracted to Christians who walk the talk and repulsed by those who don't, like there's kind of no in between.
[00:00:07] And I love when Jay Warner Wallace was on the talk about what young people were looking for is not whether it's true, but whether it's good. Welcome to episode 347. Most mainline churches don't have many 18 to 25 year olds. Why have younger generations largely rejected the church?
[00:00:27] Because to them, the Jesus of the church doesn't match the Jesus of Scripture. Cultivating gospel hope for our young adults. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Hey everyone, welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. Two pastors, you're passionate about leading change in their churches, trying to create healthy churches
[00:00:49] and helping other pastors to do the same. I'm Jason Tucker back again with Jesse Skiffington. How's it going, Jesse? I'm doing good. I like that you work, use the work, try, try, try, or he worked hard.
[00:01:00] Working on it, we're working on being healthy leaders, healthy churches all that and you know it's a constant journey. But I'm glad to be on The Journey with Jason and grateful for all those tuning in.
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[00:01:22] Man, we need all the help we can get and. And remember God is good and God is at work in and through us. Even when it seems like man is anything happening. Remember the fruit that outcome belongs to him. So let's get moving forward.
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[00:02:05] We had our interview with Rick Lawrence and we talked about his book editing Jesus. And this is kind of a follow up actually it was sort of an area I wanted to get to in more detail with Rick, but we kind of ran out of time and that was.
[00:02:19] What's going on with young adults, you know, most mainline churches anyway don't have very many 18 to 22 year olds and or 25 year olds if you want to categorize that as young adults.
[00:02:31] And I'm always wondering, you know, why so a lot of people will say, well, it's just they're not interested in Christianity, but actually I think that's a myth. You remember that show myth busters.
[00:02:44] I think we need to bust a myth here about young adults because my experience is that that's not true. Like I hear from past all the time, well, you know, younger generation they're way more liberal than than we are perhaps or, you know, they talk about it's they want inclusivity and your church may or may not, you know, lift that up as as a primary thing.
[00:03:09] Or they're just interested in other religions or you know, hey, aren't we all worse being the same God, how could we be so narrow minded. And certainly there's some of that of course as you go younger generationally you tend to get more in that direction.
[00:03:25] I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just saying it just sort of is and you know, I could see that, but I don't think that's what's going on with young adults.
[00:03:36] In fact, in there's some research to back this up, but also my own experience, I don't think young adults aren't around because they're not interested.
[00:03:46] I think they're not around because they're disillusioned. I had a chance, gosh, it was like, oh he was a year ago now when I was at the camp that I usually, I'll do a pastor of the week when my kids go or when my kids go so I'm getting ready to go back here in July, which is great sister fun week to just very relaxing for me actually.
[00:04:07] I get to talk talk to the students, talk to the staff and most of the staff are all college age students and last year I had some really deep conversations with some of the counselors.
[00:04:18] And one of the things that came up really surprised me it was this young woman was talking about. I was appreciate sermons that can relate to her and speak her language and all of that because the sermons had a big part of the worship service, but she said,
[00:04:37] I would rather have a church that disciples me than even has a good sermon on Sunday morning.
[00:04:45] Like she said, that's way my a bigger value than reaching and it's fascinating. I know she was a counter at a Christian camp, so maybe she's in the minority, but I found that interesting that.
[00:04:58] What she said and was echoed through other students was what they're finding at church is not is not meeting who they think Jesus is or not reflecting who they think Jesus is. And that's creating a disconnect that makes them not want to go.
[00:05:19] I don't know, I just find this really interesting. I don't know if you had experience with that.
[00:05:24] Well, I think there's this strong sense of what they want to see is a genuine expression of people trying their best to live out their faith and generationally of course you're going to not always gravitate towards the things that your parents gravitated toward and expressions of worship and different kinds of things.
[00:05:39] So I think there's a lot of factors that young adult life tends to be a pretty homogeneous season of life where you're around a lot of other people like you.
[00:05:46] So if you don't have many young adults, it's hard to get something going for young adults that as far as that's meaningful. But I think what you're identifying in that conversation there is we have a generation of young people that are spiritually hungry.
[00:06:01] They're wanting a foundation to build their life on and they don't always know the direction to go or how to best do that. And we are not meeting them there as churches to help them take the steps to build their life and faith on Jesus.
[00:06:14] And I think there's a gap there that we need to be honest about we just sort of hope and assume that our kids will graduate from high school maybe go to college and then land in a church somewhere.
[00:06:26] But there's a missing piece of discipling them in those young adult years to really show them who Jesus is and not only show them but also invite them to discover who Jesus is along with us.
[00:06:38] And to get to the real the authentic Jesus that will capture their hearts and imaginations that is beautiful and good and all of those things that we want for so how do we do it.
[00:06:50] How do we disciple and come alongside young people in this unique season of life when they're asking all those hard questions that pushing back against the status quo.
[00:07:01] More and more the older I get when we have a young leader coming to our midst I'm like okay this person's about to question everything that we do.
[00:07:09] And we do it in that season and we get defense kind of push them to the side and it's going okay what's it what can we learn from you about how how we gather and what we do when we gather that kind of thing so.
[00:07:21] And I think it begins with our conversation last week and that is to not redact Jesus to principles per se or edit Jesus to somehow push a particular spiritual political. Social agenda but rather allowed Jesus to confront our agendas to.
[00:07:50] Where we focus as we said last week on the roots so that the fruit will grow strong.
[00:07:56] I think that's where it begins and I think I have a soft spot for this age demographic because this was where I was when I came to know Jesus I was 19 years old and I feel like.
[00:08:05] I had so many questions and I found my answers actually apart from church. And I found them in paratroche. So here's some good news I think and that you know this is born as research really sort of backs up the anecdotal experience that I shared at camp.
[00:08:25] And that is that 45% of young adults according to their research 18 to 25 year olds say that they're intrigued by Jesus 45% that's all believing and non believing 45%. And with that report said about the spiritual open generation was that they're open to Jesus the problem clearly is the churches.
[00:08:48] Teaching of Jesus or reflection of Jesus and what they want is something a little different than what previous generations wanted you know even me when I was young and want to go to church it was all about Sunday morning.
[00:09:01] I wanted a Sunday morning experience that connects with me that I feel like I can grow and it's speaking my language and all that not that that's not important at all.
[00:09:10] But again, that's not their number one like like this young woman at camp said she wants to be disabled and in fact David Kinnamon who is the CEO of Arna.
[00:09:18] He writes in that report on the open generation he says the following quote having a spiritual mentor is one of the strongest factors for helping young people develop a resilient faith when that grows and sustains them over time and helps guide them toward meaning and purpose in life.
[00:09:34] And that's exactly what they're looking for which is fascinating. That that's their number one.
[00:09:41] And I think the part of the challenges is if we have never been mentored or been disabled in that kind of intentional way we might not know what it looks like or how to do that.
[00:09:52] And in fact, you know right now I'm doing some taking a discipleship course with Jim Singleton we had him on not too long ago hopefully get it kind of circle back around with him on some of this but we're talking about how how do we do that where we're allowing.
[00:10:07] The scriptures to be the primary instructor and the movement of the Holy Spirit by just opening it up instead of teaching a class to someone we just oh Bible and say who is Jesus what is Jesus mean for life in this passage and what is the Holy Spirit saying to you and not filling in all the gaps with our learned answers and all of our expertise.
[00:10:27] Sitting with the scriptures together in that space and letting the Holy Spirit speak to each heart and grow their faith through that environment.
[00:10:35] So I think there's some really important things that generation will be drawn more to that than us giving them all the answers that we figured out a whole one way. Yeah, and just another a couple of quick hit stats here.
[00:10:47] Despite low scripture engagement around half of all Gen Z adults say their lives have been transformed by the Bible's message. Fascinating.
[00:10:58] Despite low scripture engagement like in other words, they may not know scripture at all, but they feel like their lives have been transformed by the Bible's message more than half of Gen Z adults identify as Christians.
[00:11:10] The D8% still identify as Catholic Protestant or other Christian tradition and non-practicing Christian and non Christian Gen Z adults even atheists right are still open to scripture based experiences and conversation that says one in five 18% of non Christian Gen Z respondents said they would consider eating a meal in a group where biblical issues were discussed.
[00:11:36] So there's a fascinating it's an openness there to what might happen or what might be true and good and I think it's so crucial that instead of coming at this generation with suspicion and frustration and all of that.
[00:11:50] I mean Jason I'm you know solidly in my mid 40s now and I am a get off my lawn you know there's like all that part of music to come down.
[00:11:59] Turn down the music get off my lawn all that and I and I my Lord give me a soft heart give me an openness to this this younger generation and help me not to be grumpy with them about the things that they're struggling with and help me to see the good things and them and I think we could there's something that we need to change in us that says.
[00:12:19] We're give me wisdom about how to approach them but also help me to embrace them for who they are in their generation and not just go why can't you be like more like me.
[00:12:28] So there's a lot of factors that go into our own approach to these young adults in our lives.
[00:12:35] So so let's get to some ideas to think about when it comes to young adults these aren't necessarily solutions or steps to solutions but maybe things to consider and you may be thinking right off the bat because I know many churches are in this in this case like we just don't have 18 25 year old so this is sort of a wasted episode will not really because I do think there are ways that you can help.
[00:12:59] help your parents and grandparents show up or the young adults in our life in a more constructive way when it comes to faith than not.
[00:13:08] And you never know if you can build a youth ministry of some kind you can build a young adult ministry because it's even just staying connected with those kids when they go off to school or off to whatever's next after high school.
[00:13:22] You can start integrating some of these things in your ministry. That's what we did. We started really, really small literally two students and it has now grown to the point where we have maybe about 15 to 20 through some young adult program and that we have but that just didn't happen overnight. That took some time. But here's some ideas.
[00:13:43] The first one is what I've seen and what the research bears out is they really want authentic safe community to work out their questions. Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:54] I mean, the way you could say we all want that but they really seem to want that to know that they can comment their questions and it's going to be okay. I mean, what are the implications? Yeah.
[00:14:12] It's because to me my first thought is I may not have the answers to their questions. If fact I probably don't. Yeah. Are they really looking for answers? Well, here's my question. Give me an answer. I don't know. I think they want to just talk it through.
[00:14:31] I think so there's something about the power of processing together rather than being told that is really an operational factor here that I think is crucial.
[00:14:41] So we have a lot of technical expertise in our answers that we could probably answer just about any question that comes up even is the most complex one that they have to offer.
[00:14:50] I'm sure we could come up with something possible in the moment, but is that the right approach probably no. I think being willing to sit with questions and let them linger and let them kind of air out. And that takes a non-defensive posture.
[00:15:06] It means being comfortable in your own skin and securing what you believe and not needing to prove how much you know.
[00:15:14] And so it takes some practice to get in those environments and be able to just go, this is part of it. It's wrestling through asking these questions and letting people sit with them.
[00:15:26] And sometimes when I keep my mouth shut and a group like that, the answer comes from someone else or somewhere else in the group.
[00:15:33] Even if it's not maybe 70% as good as I would have given it gets to the heart of what's going on who's just in a good direction.
[00:15:40] So you know, young people want to know that you're for them that you're not going to judge them those kinds of things. And I think creating the word safe maybe trigger some things for people I don't know.
[00:15:50] I'm all about free open flowing discussion and I think you can do creative space for that that still has some boundaries to it and healthy way.
[00:15:57] Yeah, what I just mean by safe is Bible guys not going to be either correcting them every time you ask a question that has some ground rules.
[00:16:04] Hey, nothing's out of balance. We're going to talk about these things and man, I love good questions. I hope you love good questions to you. It's that kind of that kind of open to your approach. Yeah, setting the right setting the right environment.
[00:16:14] Yeah, I feel like it's doing more of something that I don't do a lot of but I did this last Sunday because it came across a scripture we're doing a series on David.
[00:16:22] And it came across some scriptures that really challenged me to dig deep and figure out what's going on. And I don't know if you remember this part of David story, but when when Saul is starting to go off the rails.
[00:16:35] Yeah, it says that an evil spirit torments him from time to time and it says directly and there was no wiggling out of it from the Hebrew is that that spirit evil spirit came from God.
[00:16:50] And I got to tell you, I did some digging last week as I was thinking through that and I where I landed was not even having a necessarily an answer but a way to work through it.
[00:17:03] Yeah, and that is reading scripture again scripture about what we know about God. It's about sort of what exactly what happens to Pharaoh and the heart of his heart and sort of the Lord allows
[00:17:14] evil to work against itself that it's kind of self-inflicted, but also you know, let's say, I mean, I had a lot of different ideas about God sovereignty and things like that, but in the end.
[00:17:25] It's not really a clean easy answer and I think maybe more of that is what young adults are looking for.
[00:17:35] Well, I know like Rick was talking about last week when he said just open in the scriptures and then letting the Holy Spirit work and let the yet let the young people be the one with the aha moment of discovery of this new way of seeing it or understanding it.
[00:17:50] I think that the intertextuality, if you will, helping people see and kind of connect the dots, we can help facilitate some of those pieces of how the old new testimony fit together and some of the big overarching parts of the narrative, but trust, I mean, I think it's an act of trust that the Holy Spirit is present and active right.
[00:18:09] So we're in community and let that give some space for that freedom to happen there for people to find those things and it's uncomfortable.
[00:18:18] I referred for a lot of folks were not used to that and it can feel threatening or something or maybe generationally, there's a big difference there.
[00:18:26] So I love your idea of equipping parents and grandparents to be there in those spaces with their young people, and then one thing I would say is if you don't have a ton of young adults, they're probably a few around at least I would guess in any congregation.
[00:18:42] And start with one do for one what you wish you could do for every and see where it goes but you may start practicing on a couple of folks and kind of loosens you up to some of those ideas.
[00:18:53] Yeah, so first thing just kind of creating the right environment, great authentic community where you can come with your questions. The next thing is just to remember that.
[00:19:02] Young adults seem to be attracted to Christians who walk the talk and repulsed by those who don't like there's kind of no in between.
[00:19:10] And I love when Jay Warner Wallace was on the talk about what young people really looking for is not whether it's true, but whether it's good and I thought that was a really a really powerful way of thinking about it.
[00:19:25] But I still think they are looking for objective truth.
[00:19:30] Sure, yeah, you can't divorce the truth from what is good right so as much as that is a good I think it's a really honest statement about maybe what we got to show the show the benefits of the gospel like what are the real benefits of having a clear purpose and meaning to your life and an identity that's secure and like there's real benefits to the gospel.
[00:19:52] So yes, it's good but it it's also true so we don't we don't uncappled those things for sure.
[00:19:59] Yeah, yeah, but I think I think we I think it's a mistake to think that they're not not looking for objective truth that they're only interested in subjective truth and they want to see if it's good.
[00:20:09] I don't think that's the case. I think I have a theory and and I think it's generational thing that it is exhausting. I believe trying to hold intention an unlimited number of personal truths like if everybody's living their truth.
[00:20:29] And I think they want to know is there an anchor to all truth with a generation that's completely obsessed with identity and purpose. They want to get to what is what's at the bottom of all of this. Is there something to tether my life to.
[00:20:51] That matters that matters infinitely. I do I think they're searching just as much for both but I do think they want to know if it's good. Yeah, because it must not be true if it's not good right I think those things are just walking in. Is it reliable?
[00:21:10] Is it they're going on tomorrow like a lot of other things and you know there's so many counterfeit things out there now that pretend to be good.
[00:21:20] That promise flourishing but to point deliver and so it's there's a kind of a skeptical generation about going all in on something that is all encompassing like Christianity.
[00:21:31] And it's every aspect of our lives is put through that line so yeah if we can demonstrate how it is good and reliable that it doesn't perish spoiler fade like that is I think a value that that generation can grab bullet and go oh here is something.
[00:21:46] I am a good and good to build my life on and that's that's meaningful for every generation but certainly a generation that's experienced so much uncertainty and disruption they're looking for an anchor like that.
[00:21:57] Yeah, another observation is they definitely still want fun and adventure it's a season of discovery for them and there are much more willing to take a chance on like if you could do.
[00:22:10] You would have probably a lot more success saying hey we're going to put a kayak trip together.
[00:22:15] Yeah then you would a lot of other things because they want that adventure they're up for adventure like okay let's do it let's go I have no idea what this church is but you seem to like it and this sounds fun right there yeah it's it's basically youth group.
[00:22:30] And there's certainly honestly there's certainly a delayed adolescence you know happening that's going later and later they aren't above having goofy fun and I think that's that's kind of a wonderful thing about young adults but not to just make everything so serious.
[00:22:45] Because that's not going to be super appealing either I think just like in youth ministry the deepest conversations happen on the car ride to the kayak.
[00:22:53] Right exactly yeah we are this really awesome volunteer that immediately wanted to jump to the deepest parts of the conversation with like some of our high school students and it was like hey pump the breaks those will happen.
[00:23:05] But if you like policate off to the signs start trying to go like let's go deep like it's like run for the hills right so yeah trust those things are going to happen in the midst of the fun and even on my whiteboard right now I have this question that says what is a grown up version of youth group like how do we create more of not just for the young adults but across the life of the church.
[00:23:25] How do we continue to be a place where people get to have fun and have adventures together I think that's something missing that we all kind of go oh yeah life is supposed to be good and fun.
[00:23:35] We don't have elx clubs and colonis clubs and all the little the other groups where people used to go and socialize and do things together and now how do we recapture some of that in the life of the church so.
[00:23:45] Yeah what is you could for adults you were you guy you just learned how to translate that for all of our adults across all the generators you know endless games of trying to chubby bunny. That's really true.
[00:23:57] All right so also missions so talk about fun and adventure missions are a huge draw for young adults because they want to do things that matter yeah and that.
[00:24:08] Yeah they'll jump in the missions like even if they really don't believe in God I mean they think it's an important value so it's quite a nice on ramp for young adults.
[00:24:17] Yeah I think a good way to do some of that is to you can kind of gamify some of that stuff like we're always gathering food to give to food banks or to other but you know so we always turn it into like some sort of game that we're trying to accomplish and a competition between each other.
[00:24:31] But let's go and serve let's see which group we can you know can serve the most hours with whatever and there's ways to have fun with all that but mission is an area that really hits their heart their sense of justice and they're longing from what is good and best in the world.
[00:24:46] Yeah you're able to talk in terms of let's go make a difference in our community that goes a long way and why well this is what Christians do as much as there's.
[00:24:56] We some black marks on our history with the Crusades and other kinds of things there are so many good things that churches and Christians have done from hospitals to orphanages to everything else where we're caring for the people around us and not resonates deeply with with the younger generations.
[00:25:11] So let's lean into that. And this next one is we got two more this next one is. I think that in an age where they have every piece of information available at any time they long for interpretation and application. I think they want mentoring.
[00:25:30] Yeah, they want somebody to connect the dots yeah not not be someone who tells them what to do but processes through with them to help them figure out what wisdom looks like wisdom is the application of what we know to be true get right how do we move in that direction.
[00:25:45] And not what's right or wrong but what's what's wise. What's a good path forward as we follow Jesus so I'm with you on that I think that is spot on. Without dictating taking people under our wings and helping them along the journey.
[00:25:58] Yeah, and then lastly I'll just say it feels to me now you know some of this is kind of loosely based on research it's based mostly on experience and this is really what I'm observing in young adults in my orbit.
[00:26:12] Is that they want analog attention in a digital world. You know it's amazing how a handwritten note or a caring gesture will make them feel incredibly special because that is just not what they're used to at all.
[00:26:30] And we have a package for college students. We've got stories about kids you know full tears getting these things. I feel like they crave it even more than ever.
[00:26:42] Yeah, yeah, you see a generation that's so into their phone into the point where they know they don't they need to break they need something different but like any real addiction it's hard to pull yourself off and even if you know.
[00:26:55] That it's good for you to do it and some providing opportunities for real connection as my son and his friends say they go let's go touch grass which means let's get outside and be outside together do something fun.
[00:27:07] So providing those opportunities and I liked that writing a handwritten note in a world where you only ever get text messages that's a powerful thing and it's something they can carry with them right even if that's a small gesture I love it really good stuff Jason.
[00:27:22] Good to talk shop thinking young adults whether you have a ton of young adults or just a few or maybe you're look around your church you've not seen seeing them.
[00:27:30] You have parents and grandparents of young adults you have community around you whether they're there or not were young adults.
[00:27:38] And so I think you can always be asking who's representing the voice or the presence of those who aren't here yet who we know if what's it going to look like for us to be more hospitable to to the 18 to 25 somethings that are searching to.
[00:27:53] Yeah, yes so anyway I passers I don't know how. This is hitting you where you're at but I think some just thinking about how do these ideas maybe spark some things for you and your church thinking about maybe you want to create.
[00:28:08] A listening group worse just like we're going to talk about. Hard stuff in the Bible and you know to do some personal invites of like.
[00:28:16] Folks you want to see there maybe it's not just young adults maybe it's even better to have you know cross generations but to intentionally invite some young adults to be a part of that.
[00:28:25] Or maybe I you want to recruit them as leaders for youth group trips and events because what happens is they end up receiving right a big faith shot in the arm when they participate in that way.
[00:28:37] Offer mentoring and maybe you got one student say like you know hey I'd love to mentor you and and yeah me, you know like get to know them first but. But you know like be willing to offer that.
[00:28:47] Point them to great digital content as well you don't have to reinvent the wheel you may find some really great stuff. Give your folks give your parents a grandparents a copy of Don Everd so once was lost I think that's a great resource for them to think about.
[00:29:02] This stage is a faith and and young people and then lastly get try to give them a seat at the table in some way. And then you can see that you're going to be able to do that.
[00:29:14] And then you can see that the decision making table in the life of the church and seated the ideation process of. What you're going to do in ministry just showing that you value their input.
[00:29:24] I just think it can go a really long way so anyway hope this sparks some ideas for all of you Jesse anything before we sign off here.
[00:29:31] Well just if you guys figured something out there with this film you know reach out to us we want to hear all the years on how we reach the next generations next gen is a big deal for us.
[00:29:39] Whether it's you know kids high school middle school kids or young adults we're trying to learn how do we reach the next generations and share the gospel in.
[00:29:48] And then take genuine way that they can receive and and take ownership of so yeah if you have ideas maybe your way ahead of us on this let us know. We'll take a we'll take all ideas.
[00:29:58] All right everyone hey thanks so much for listening as we always say ministry is hard it is so much better what we do it together.