[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: When I need to have a hard conversation, there are two different tensions.
[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel one or the other or both.
[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is tension in the room that is felt by others and then tension in me where, you know,
[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: my blood pressure goes up because there's something that I need to talk about.
[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, but here's what's at stake.
[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just resolving or reconciling what's going on.
[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing that's at stake is if you don't lead in that situation, others are going
[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to stop following you.
[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Episode 352.
[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one thing to realize you need to have a hard conversation with someone at church.
[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You can just try to ignore this situation, but if you do, you may find people stop following
[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you as a leader.
[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Three steps to handling difficult conversations right now.
[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That's today on the Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everyone, I'm Jason Tucker and welcome to the Reclaimed Leader Podcasts at Podcasts
[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: with two pastors are having weekly conversations about leading healthier churches.
[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And as always, I am joined by my left-coast brother, Jesse Skiffington, how's it going, Jesse?
[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing okay, Jason just talking shop, doing our best to lead and lead change.
[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And do all the things that we got to do to stay healthy as churches and as leaders.
[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've managed to journey in a process.
[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes we get to write, sometimes we blow it.
[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully we're learning and growing along the way to such a point where we can look back and
[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: go, look out how I've grown.
[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Look how I've matured as a leader.
[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Look how much healthier we are now as a church because we did the things that, you know,
[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: we know our best and good in leadership.
[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking about one of those kinds of areas today that I think it's so important
[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to get this right.
[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But everything in us fights against even stepping into this territory because for many of
[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: us and ministry is just a really uncomfortable part of our role.
[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we're going to be talking about having hard conversations and Jason, you know,
[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to have a hard conversation with you about bringing this topic up because I don't want
[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to talk about it.
[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, listen, you know, in real time or recording, it's August now my goodness, but if
[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it felt like July for me, man, I feel a little bit raw from it.
[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is usually a real mellow month?
[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's usually the most chill month for me personally, just in the rhythm of my
[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: year.
[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But it just seemed like July was the month of having difficult conversations and sometimes
[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I made it more difficult than it needed to be because I didn't address it right away or
[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe I addressed it too quickly.
[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just a reminder to revisit this subject because this happens whether it's volunteers
[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: or staff or you know, a whole bunch of other situations where this could come up because
[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, honestly, hey, we're in summer mode.
[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really want to deal with this now and then it has all sorts of, you know, negative
[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: reactions as a result that actually reminded me so this early in the week my dog, 92 pound
[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Shepherd mix, she had gotten a big like cut on her arm and we don't really know what it was
[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: from or whatever but she'd been looking at it for about a week.
[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I don't think that's good.
[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We should probably get her to stop somehow and I didn't know I had, it's been a long
[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: time since I had a dog.
[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was just like, what do you do is do they make some sort of like compression sock thing
[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you could put over it?
[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I called the vet and of course they want you to go in and add a thin feel like
[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I love my dog but you know, it's can you just tell me and they said no actually
[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: it's better to put the cone of shame on them because if you put, if you wrap it it could
[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: breed bacteria.
[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So okay great.
[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So we put on the cone of shame and I couldn't help but I made an instant connection
[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: to what was going on with me and having hard conversations is that like when I'm wounded
[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: or feeling wounded and I need to go through the discomfort of having that hard conversation
[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: if I don't go through the discomfort, I call it wearing the cone.
[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If I don't go through the discovery, is never going to heal.
[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to keep looking at it and messing with it and it's only going to get worse
[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: only and it possibly infected.
[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like there's something really similar to what goes on with me when it comes
[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to delaying having hard conversations.
[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's said, go through the discomfort at the moment.
[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually getting infected in me.
[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually getting worse and worse and by the time I do address it,
[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I probably ramped it up to a bigger issue than even needs to be.
[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's so spot on.
[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're able, I mean there are some things that are going to be big kind of no matter what but
[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of things if we can get out ahead when we notice it address it soon, address it in
[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the ways we're going to talk about today.
[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But if we can get out ahead and get it while it's still not that big of a deal in our own
[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: head and heart and probably not for them, either wherever that person we need to talk to,
[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it's going to go a lot better than if we wait until we're soamped up and so sick of it or
[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: we've been stewing on it for so long.
[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Now we're really feeling resentful in there, whatever.
[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I find that the longer you wait, what happens is when you finally work up the
[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: sledgehammer instead of going, hey, you know I noticed and can we work on it and dealing with it in
[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a real time. So there's just so much here and I like that vision you have with just with your dog,
[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you know like the goal is to make things better, to get better and sometimes we've got to do
[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: uncomfortable things to do that. And for me anytime I'm going to have a hard conversation or need
[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to, there's a couple things I remember what would a great leader do? Well, great leaders do those
[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: things. So a little bit of a cone is saying that's actually a really good like trigger like
[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: reminder. Yeah, is this what somebody that you respect and leadership would do will probably
[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: so go do that then. And the second one is what do I want to be true a month from now?
[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And what would happen if I do nothing? What would be true a month from now?
[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And what I want to be true from a month from now is that I'm not stressed out about this and we
[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: take to the situation. What I don't want a month from now is I'm stressed about this and now
[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the wheels are really coming off in some area because I wasn't willing to have the hard conversation.
[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, I have the little pet talks like that that helped me engage in these things. Even though
[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like it, I'm willing to do it. Yeah. How do you, how do you know when a hard conversation
[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: is needed or warranted? I mean, I guess it's probably like intuitive on some level but
[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: is there a little bit of a of a barometer of as to whether or not it's needed? Because
[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: for me, it's a gut thing and I'll usually delay it thinking oh maybe I'm just having a
[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: unnecessary reaction and I'm usually right. We did need to have a conversation.
[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your question. Yeah, that's a great question. I think we don't want to be the people
[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: who are always looking for a fight. You know those people. Everything's an issue and there's no grace
[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's no you know some so sometimes if somebody's critical like I got an email the other
[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: day that was critical of the way we announced them event that's coming up we didn't you know we
[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't plug it the right way or something and I wanted to just hit back and have like we need to sit
[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: down and have a hard conversation. And then I was like you know what? Just I know there's some
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: things going on in their life that are hard I'm just gonna let that one go because it's not
[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in keeping with their character there's not a track record of this kind of behavior so just get over
[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: it move on. So I think we have to be mindful not not everything needs to be a fight not everything
[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: needs to be a sit down and let's talk it hash it out but I think you hit on something one if
[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you kind of feel at a gut level that something isn't right here is probably worth looking at
[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and just figuring out if if there isn't and if there is something going on and paying attention
[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: to that and using that internal barometer to say something's out of whack here something doesn't
[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: feel right here and so you investigate that a little more to see if there is an issue that
[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: needs to be addressed. And the other one for me is I think when we're the more clear we can be
[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: about the vision and the values of our organization our church who we are as we lead those kinds
[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of things it's easier to notice when someone's walking out of line with that. And so those are the
[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: most intentionality about having hard conversations is when we agreed to this direction and yet
[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you're over here complaining about it or undermining our decision or something or you know we
[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: agreed that as we work together these are the values we're going to live by and you're not
[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you're stepping out of that you're talking badly about someone behind their back or whatever. So
[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: it's the vision mission value stuff those are the hard conversations I'm most willing to engage with
[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's a it's a stewardship of the whole kind of thing rather than just somebody you
[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: know that we need to protect ourselves or something like that. I don't know if that makes sense.
[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It does and that actually happens a lot with a you know polity or governance boards where
[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're in the press material in way it's a majority vote and sometimes if you're an elder on
[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: losing end of that vote you're what happens often is you know somebody else who doesn't
[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: like how the vote went you're from the congregation will approach this person be like hey you
[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: know what gives is I think this is a bad idea and then the the elder instead of telling the
[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I would be like yeah I didn't vote for that you know that was a horrible idea and if it was
[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a good idea right yeah well that's so then at the end of the environment it were making a big decision
[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: like we're starting a new service in the fall the big decision for us now everybody agreed finally
[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: we got to consensus but we said when we get up from this table whatever your opinion was when
[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you sat down we're we're owning this decision together yeah so if I bump into somebody and
[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: there they're undermining that I'm going to say hey we need to talk about that because it's not
[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: who we are as we be so there's some of those kinds of things those are the ones that happen
[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: often the other ones are with staff or key volunteers that's those are hard because there's a lot
[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: interpersonal connection there but I tend to be welling more willing to have those conversations
[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: when we've had a clear agreement yeah ahead of time about what was supposed to be done and it's
[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I want to set people up for success and so if we are near clear together on what was
[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: supposed to happen or how you know what you had agreed to do then you actually have something
[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to bring to the conversation when you say hey we talked about this we agreed about it and it
[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't happen what happened and how do we fix it so I think there's anyway that's way more than
[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you ask for no no it's you know there's some of it. Yeah so I got my feelings hurt now I need
[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to address it with them like I can get over it but if it's damaging the church the health of
[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the church the mission of the church or it's not who we are as we do our work together then those
[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: are the places where I really want to dig in yeah I would say I agree with that 100% now would say
[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: when I need to have a hard conversation there are two different tensions I feel one or the other
[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: or both and that is tension in the room that is felt by others that you know someone so is not
[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in alignment or we're not in alignment with them or whatever and in then tension in me where
[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you know my blood pressure goes up because there's something that you talk about and honestly
[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: here's what's at stake it's not just resolving or reconciling what's going on. The other
[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: thing that's at stake that I discovered a little bit the hard way is if you don't lead in that
[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: situation others are going to stop following you because they're going to start asking why did
[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that person get away with that? Why did you as a leader let that happen and I had some minor touches
[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: of that last month and I owned it but I also I guess underestimated other people watching
[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: this situation going on were reacting so again this is all really really important I think for any
[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: leader out there whether you are a solo pastor with volunteers or you're you know multi-staff pastor
[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: or maybe we got some elders listening or you know folks in the business world I think this
[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: this applies to everybody so because it's a podcast you're always doing three steps or whatever
[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we made it three but it could probably be about 53 but here are three things. It works about this
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: talk. Yeah it's right well I think you need something that's not just going to fly out of your brain
[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: something easy to remember so that you can apply it when it really matters. So three number one is
[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean just that straight from scripture straight from sermon on the mountain that is take the
[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: plank out of your own eye first which I love and that's just such a wonderful I love that Jesus said
[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that because I believe he was trying to be funny if he's making a joke you know you're pointing at
[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: back and you got a plank in your eye um and I think that means for me own what I can own
[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: like genuinely own what I can own that when I come into this situation the reason I'm having
[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: a hard conversation usually is because I am at odds with something this pertains person did or
[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: said or or feels and so I and or I may even feel I'd been wounded by this person in the process
[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and when you were going in like a wounded animal into a hard conversation you I got a really
[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: watch myself I got really watch my tone I got to watch with how much energy and accidental aggression
[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm coming at the conversation with like I and what helps to disarm me is to say okay wait a second
[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: how have I allowed this situation happen and it's very rare that I can't point to me as in some way
[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: contributing to how things got to where we are yeah so on and on in your part is crucial and
[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that actually helps you get your heart to a better place and you're not going to be as defensive
[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: then um one of one of the things I've noticed I remember one time I had a really hard conversation
[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: with one of our elders who ended up stepping away because we just had different visions for how
[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: things were going to go but um it was an ended up being a hard but good conversation and it was
[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: because I really was thoughtful and peripheral ahead of time about the part that I had played
[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: in this relationship not going well and I didn't come into that conversation with defensiveness
[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and aggression it was more I'm the lament that we got to this place and now what's the solution going
[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: forward and you know so I think it's a good example when you are willing to be humble enough
[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to take the plank out of your own eye to be honest about the part that you played and I think
[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it's actually disarming to the person that you're having a conversation with. Yeah.
[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Then the second piece is okay you know only you can own and that's a good way of starting
[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the conversation um but the second thing is in this part doesn't come naturally to me
[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: this is the least natural thing for me be generous with their motivations
[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and try to find agreement with them before you tackle the issue so I'm not good naturally
[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: at being generous with other people's motivations. I'm not I don't know I don't like that about myself
[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but that's just where my head goes my head goes to you know if somebody did something that
[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: went against what we agreed upon I think they're sabotaging they're trying to you know
[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not always thinking what's usually the truth and they're trying to do what they feel to be right
[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and or you know that it's not some sort of personal slap in the face or whatever.
[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I'm getting that I just need to be generous about their motivation like being the best
[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: in them. Yeah believing the best another way to say that is given them the benefit of the doubt
[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: until they prove otherwise or assume good intentions until they show you that they did not
[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think that's a more charitable approach to a person rather than assuming that they've done
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: they have bad intentions and not giving them the benefit of the doubt and so when you're
[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: dressing a breakdown or something happened maybe there's information you don't have about
[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: how they really feel or about what the conversation was. I mean think about that the
[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: example we're talking about about a decision ever to get up leaves the table and we agreed to
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: this and here's our talking points and then an angry member of the congregation gets an elders a year
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're nodding along because you know they're trying to be gracious and
[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and you take that as a sign that they're like incahuts now with the opposition but really they were just
[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to help bring someone along while hearing that from them probably would help a ton
[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but if you start with you you know I can't believe you went out and you know
[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a problem with the opposition on this or something and that's not when some of this
[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: charitable and in fact you might find something out that changes your mind about the whole
[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: situation goes oh we're actually on the same page I'm glad let's move forward from here so be charitable
[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: be generous in your approach to people's intentions and I think within that is sort of this
[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: if a breakdown happens what we want to do is not make it about a personal attack on that
[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: person's character or something right away I mean it may come to that I mean down the road somewhere
[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: there's not they don't want to or whatever and they're just dug in more often it's because of
[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: some other reason like if a staff member fails to follow through my first instinct is to say
[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you know come on we're supposed to work hard and get things done but well maybe they didn't have
[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the resources to do it or maybe you know something else an emergency came up and they had to
[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: spend their time in intention dealing with that and now I'm gotten to it yet so assuming good
[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: intentions or assuming the best first and tell you you're proven otherwise I think is just a
[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: better way to go so I'm glad you included that there Jason yeah I had something sort of minor
[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: happened last month where a staff member made a decision that I thought was clear that we had
[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: talked about not to do and and I just said you know when we met I said hey look I apologize if
[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't as clear as I needed to be about this because you know this happened and
[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that you wouldn't deliberately you know undermine what we were doing but here's
[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: here's why this situation I wasn't happy with and let's figure out how we can you know come back
[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: into agreement and it was it was actually a really like nothing of a conversation and if I would
[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: let that stew and if I would have thought this person is just trying to define me then it would have been
[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: ugly unnecessarily yeah unnecessarily yeah just deal with it I remember Jim Mead we had him
[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: on the podcast way back and he talked about yeah yeah there's no the OGs you allowed this cars to
[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: prove it I think it was uh absolutely maybe even something like that and but he one of the other things
[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you often said to me it was just get things up and out don't let him stew that's bad for your heart
[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: bad for your leadership so just you know get it out get it dealt with and you'll have more
[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: freedom so yeah but if you had let us do that thing could have turned into resentment toward that
[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: person or suspicion toward them now it's really impacting your working relationship so yeah yeah
[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: so generosity of spirit towards the people you're engaged with all of it so and then the third
[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: so the first two are about really setting up the conversation in a way and the third is about
[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: conversation itself and I love that scene in money ball I wonder if it was true if it really went
[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: down like this but where Brad Pitt's you know he's playing the general manager of the A's
[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were talking about firing a player or you know get me an player he says you just tell him
[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you've been traded you've been cut you know don't give him this whole story he goes better one
[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: shot to the head than multiple shots to the body where they bleed out but he's just the power
[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of directness and how directness is a gift rather than trying to sort of get to this convoluted
[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: thing that again may not even be clear by the time you're done with it and this is where I really
[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: lean on Dan Ryle and said something I think it was from a blog post he did a while back
[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i'm going to look for that if I could find it i'm going to put it in our show notes
[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone to read the original but he said he said that in those hard conversations
[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the heart of the entire thing is best delivered in one sentence so he actually advises to come up
[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: with your one sentence before you go into that conversation because what happens is is we tend to over
[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: talk because it's uncomfortable nervous we're anxious yeah and then and then sometimes we actually
[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: miss the real point because we've gone off a few degrees from where we're supposed to be in our
[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: spinning and trying to make sure that people still like us at the end of the conversation so I
[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that and it's something that I use yeah i think um i if i remember right we maybe were
[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: there at the rethink conference when he was talking about this and in a group and he was talking
[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: more in the context that when you have to let someone go to how you be clear about that that's kind
[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of a money ball reference but i think having that strategy in any hard conversation you know
[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's something like hey we agreed that you know we were all gonna own this decision together and
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and even if we didn't get our way in that conversation and I noticed that you've been complaining
[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: about it to other people um and that's not something that I can leave on a dress you know so just
[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of getting clear about what is the purpose of the conversation and so I want to and before we
[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: leave here I want to make sure that we're on the same page about how we're going to communicate
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: going forward something like that or if you're if you have to get to that endpoint where things
[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: are broken down and there's a gap between someone's willingness to do to job as it is or what's
[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: been agreed to being able to say you know we're not going to be able to continue our working
[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: relationship so here's here's the things that are going to happen next i i want the best for you
[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're going to do our best to set you up for success going down the road but our relationship
[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: here in this church is going to come to an end and uh you know i'm sorry about that that's
[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the way things are. or you know something so it's really clear about what's happening
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and man we learn those lessons the hard way when we're not clear right yeah um and i think
[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: preparation and not emotion is what's going to make the conversation better so what if you
[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: could do to sort of disarm your own emotional baggage and and i think the way he sort of says
[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: do that it's just to be really prepared because practice saying it you act as your one sentence
[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and get it in your head into such a point where this is just a conversation it's not high noon
[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you know in the in the wild west so anyway i thought what happens to you when your heart rate
[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: goes up your brain goes blank you you start going into fighter flight mode yourself and for that
[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: other person on the other side of the conversation some of that same stuff is probably going to be
[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: happening right so especially at a higher level intensity if you're going to have to let someone go
[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: or have a really hard conversation so knowing that blindly it down to one sentence that's repeated
[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: in several different kinds of ways that's going to set them up for success too and they're
[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: going to remember so often what i'll do even depending on the situation is kind of send a follow up
[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: hey thanks for taking the time to meet it's really glad to hear your perspective and you know
[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I know I have some part to own and not to and what i heard us say at the end of the conversation
[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: is that going forward we're going to yeah xyz did i hear that did i hear us right and then hopefully
[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you get some agreement back so you can go forward but by being direct and clear about what we're
[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: agreeing to at the end of the conversation you're actually setting yourself and and them up for
[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: success and but that takes discipline takes preparation and a willingness to settle your own emotional
[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of stuff before you're going into that conversation at least as much as you can
[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and then what happens when you do all of this when you do this well you get better overall
[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: performance of your staff or volunteers you have a better stress level for yourself you grow
[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: through it you go through the discomfort in order to let the wounds heal and modeling health
[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: be gets health instead of dysfunction in your spirit growth trust yeah people go you are willing
[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: to deal with the hard things that come up with me or with others and that builds an environment
[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: of trust and i love it when the outcome is yeah let's do better let's go forward and
[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you on your stuff they own their stuff and we we go what go forward from there and i find that actually
[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: has a way of when it goes that direction not always but as a way of deepening and cementing
[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that relationship to that we went through something hard together and we were honest with each other
[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and we came out okay and intact and now we're somehow closer or better because of that so it
[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: is some really positive yields on the back end it's not just about mitigating the negative stuff
[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it's actually has a deepening of trust and credibility and the organization yeah because tough
[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: conversations are going to happen i mean anytime you deal with people it's anything worth while
[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and want to keep it on track now if you just want the status quo and keep drifting and not
[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: accomplish anything yeah don't have our conversations but if you want to see mission effectiveness
[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and if you want to see a group of people mobilized in the same direction and on the same page
[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: this is going to come with the territory and so i think it's there there will there's a will
[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: thing on our end as leaders are we willing to do this or are we not and there's outcomes to both
[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: of whatever answer we give to that question well thanks everyone for listening for being a part
[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of this i hope it's helpful to you and however you're listening maybe just hit the subscribe button
[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: right now if you're new to us and you found us somehow or someone shared with us and we'd love it
[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: if you leave us a review it's a great way for us to get found we're just trying to get the word out
[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: as we talk about church health and trying to help as many churches as possible
[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: think through the same thing so i know that this conversation has been so personally helpful
[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to me over the years because this talking shop helps to keep me sharp and make me a better leader
[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: so anyway thanks so much folks as we always say ministry is hard it is so much better when we do it together