[00:00:00] I would say there's other stuff, you know, our personal circumstances outside of our role as pastors. We face life difficulties out there, change happens, health issues, you know, family stuff's changing. I mean, you got an eighth grader graduating, you guys, you know, empty nesting is on the horizon, you know, like, there's a lot of things that come at us that represent change we didn't necessarily ask for. And some of that's heavier stuff, and some of it's just kind of the grind of life and ministry. Welcome to episode 449.
[00:00:29] It's one thing to deal with the consequences of change that you initiate or are intentional about. But what about the change that you didn't ask for? They can be disorienting, draining and discouraging. So let's spend some time today reframing it in a more helpful way. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us. And some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast.
[00:01:22] Jesse, it is good to be here. It's good to be talking shop, working on ministry, working on how do we help our churches? How do we get out of our own way and let God do what he's going to do? Or how do we partner with God and set ourselves up to do what he's called us to do? For sure. And this week, I'm right in the middle of going back and forth to doing the Bible hour at Ocean Grove, which is fun.
[00:01:51] But I'm kind of back and forth. I got my youngest is graduating middle school today. And we've got a football camp for my my oldest son tomorrow. So it's I'm kind of all over the place. Yeah. The Raiders gear I'm representing this comfort. So please, sometimes you just got to hold on to something amidst the craziness of life. Right. It's a little bit what we're talking about today. And we'll get into that in a minute. But yeah, same for me. It's been a kind of a sprint.
[00:02:21] I'm actually not here. You might not know that, but I'm actually so I'm on vacation. So I walked into my office today and all my staff are working on stuff. And I'm like, I'm not here. Do not ask any questions. So I got back to my office really quick and on the go and actually get on a plane in about four and a half hours here. So you go get some time away. And anyway, so we're all doing a lot. Right. We're all moving through. And for whatever reason, this was on my mind.
[00:02:50] We haven't done kind of a how to care for yourself and some pastor care kind of stuff that sometimes you and I, that's not our favorite lane to be in because we want to talk systems and strategy and culture and vision and next generation. And that's all important and good. But I think sometimes it's important also to stop and go, how are we doing and how do we navigate the things that are going to come up? And so that's really what this episode is going to be about.
[00:03:16] Just another kind of conversation to help us think about how to process in leadership. I love it. And Jesse, I appreciate you coming up with this topic because it may not be my gravitational pull, but boy, do I need it. And I always feel it when we talk about this. And tell us more about this facing change. So there's change that you ask for, potentially trying to do, but then this change you didn't ask for.
[00:03:46] And how do you navigate that? And how do you do that in a healthy way? Change is a funny thing. It tends to be something that we, it may be hard when we're the ones initiating change, but there's something that we have some, maybe some control or we feel good about it because we're the ones introducing the change or the idea. And early on, you and I'd spend a lot of episodes here talking about change in the local church. We need to revitalize. We need to reclaim some things and do the hard work of change.
[00:04:13] And we still need to do that in our churches. So there is that kind of proactive change that we get to be about. And amidst the bumps and bruises of that, I think we can kind of soldier on and push through because we're sort of behind the change. And 17 years in now, Jason, I'm noticing that not all change is like that. I'm not always the one initiating the change.
[00:04:35] And so what I wanted to talk about today and just reflect on it together really is what do we do when the change that's coming isn't, is change that we didn't ask for? How do we face change that we didn't ask for? And lots of examples that we could give for this, but you know, probably the, maybe the most extreme version of that would be like a forced transition as a pastor. A church says to you, it's not going to work. You're not a good fit. And that's a really intense version of a change we didn't ask for.
[00:05:05] But I think there's other change that we don't ask for either in leadership. And sometimes it's maybe, you know, a staff member moving on to the next thing and it's good for them. But now we've got to figure out how to plug the hole. Or maybe it's a family that you have known and shared life and ministry with. And for whatever reason, they say, we're going to move on to a new church. We're leaving this church and we're going somewhere else.
[00:05:31] I don't know. What other kinds of change have you experienced that you didn't ask for? I mean, the list is... I don't know, but I'm already bummed out by those two examples. Oh yeah, those are tough things. I've lived them, you know, I have lived them often and staff change. I feel like just when we get all the right people on the bus and everything's cranking, somebody has a change coming up. And it's just a numbers game. That's just going to happen.
[00:05:53] But it doesn't mean, you know, I think it's all about emotional bandwidth because when I don't see it coming, then it adds an extra layer to the already kind of frenetic pace. Right. Because you know the work that's involved in navigating through it, right? Especially, you know, thinking about some of this stuff when key volunteers or a key elder or staff member or something moves on and you're like, oh, but we just got you trained.
[00:06:22] We just got you up and running and now we got to do it over again. So I think there's a little bit of a, you know, and I would say there's other stuff, you know, our personal circumstances outside of our role as pastors. We face life difficulties out there. Change happens, health issues, you know, family stuff's changing. I mean, you got an eighth grader graduating, you guys, you know, empty nesting is on the horizon. You know, like there's a lot of things that come at us that represent change we didn't necessarily ask for.
[00:06:50] And some of that's heavier stuff and some of it's just kind of the grind of life and ministry. And I've noticed that as the longer I've done this, the more that stuff kind of tends to wear me out and maybe even wear me down. And now, so I came up with three words that I noticed myself experiencing when I'm facing change I didn't ask for. And maybe this could be, you can relate to these, Jason, maybe. So I'm just going to put these out there and then we can talk a little bit about them.
[00:07:17] And then we're going to introduce, I think, hopefully a helpful way to reframe them a little bit. So three words when we're feeling maybe overwhelmed or unsure in the face of change we didn't ask for. The first one, it's a really cheerful one, Jason. We might be feeling alone. Like, man, I'm the only one this has ever happened to. You know, God, where the heck did you go? We just got things dialed in and now a change. Or, you know, what happened here? And, you know, you sort of get in your own head about that stuff.
[00:07:47] So you might be feeling isolated, alone. And who can I even talk to about this? You know, wearing the senior leadership hat is a unique thing. And, you know, the data shows leaders often feel alone. They feel lonely. They feel like they're the only one or whatever. And so sometimes we just, something hard comes along or a change happens and we're just like, that aloneness I felt now feels even weightier.
[00:08:15] I'm really the one that's being affected here. I don't know. You ever had that kind of? Never. Not me, Jesse. I mean, yeah. A lot. And, you know, whenever it happens, it's really hard because you do feel like you do feel like I'm isolated.
[00:08:41] Like, I don't know who I could even talk to about this because I also. So let's say there's a staff change going on. Yeah. Who are you going to talk to? Another staff member? That's not really appropriate. So, you know, maybe an elder or something like that in your church. But at the same time, especially if it's a situation that's kind of a difficult one. Yeah. You don't want to accidentally kind of vent or, you know, change, you know, unnecessarily taint somebody's perspective. You know what I mean? Yeah.
[00:09:09] So it's, it feels very lonely. It feels like I don't know who I can share this. It's isolating by its very nature because you're at the top of the org chart, right? And it's going to fall on your shoulders in some way. And especially organizational change that's happening. So we might be feeling alone. The other feeling that I have sometimes experienced, and I would say I'm kind of maturing through this one to know that this is not the case anymore. But sometimes when we're facing a change, it can just feel kind of final. Like it's never going to be different.
[00:09:37] It's always going to be this way or, or whatever. And especially if it's a mistake or regret or something we, we did that we ought not to have done or wish we could take back. And now it's out there. And, or, you know, we have to have that hard conversation and we have to ask somebody to leave. And it's just like, ah, am I ever going to feel different than I do right now? It just, it's too much. So kind of sometimes it just feels really final and it feels like this is going to be the story forever. Am I ever going to sleep well again?
[00:10:06] You know, or whatever it is. Right. And, and the more we do it though, of course, the more we start to realize, wait a minute, there's sort of a, a pattern or a, a cycle to this experience of change and the experience of grief or loss or the hard work that goes into it. And then you kind of start to come out the other side. And we'll talk a little bit about that. And then the third thing that sometimes I felt like is like, it, it's wasted, like all that effort, all that energy, all that time, all that, whatever.
[00:10:35] It's like, what was it even for? Like why? And, and so sometimes I get a little frustrated and, and especially if it's changed related to stuff that we worked really hard to kind of cultivate and, and make happen. And, uh, so those are the not so cheerful words that sometimes I associate with a change that I didn't ask for. So I don't know, other words come to mind for you. Anything else that's kicking around in your head as we're thinking about these?
[00:10:59] Yeah. You know, as I'm kind of thinking about change, I didn't ask for, I just think of like, I'm going to, now I worry that I'm going to have to, whatever plans we had, I feel like now have to get parked over here. Well, while I address this other thing. And then I get this sense of, Oh my goodness, you know, we're falling behind or we're not going to have to do that thing. We were all excited about. And usually that's just coming from a place of anxiety.
[00:11:26] I mean, all I'm doing is I'm, I'm theorizing or fearful or anxious about something that may or may not even be true. It's just spinning. And that's the other thing I think I'll, I'll get in my head a lot about the change and, and that's sometimes, I mean, I need to be in my head a little bit, but yeah, I don't want to get stuck there. That's the thing that's hard. Anxious, unsure, feeling overwhelmed, not sure where to go next or what to do next, all that kind of thing.
[00:11:55] And so all those, and I kind of try to capture those in those, those three words, you know, it feels, you feel alone. It's like final, I feel maybe feels wasted. So we're going to introduce one word to the front end of those words. And you were guessing about the one word before we get recording. You were pretty close, but so I reached back into my youth back way back in the 1990s, Jason. There was a word that we used all the time. I know you use this word and I can hear you saying it in fact, and I know I did.
[00:12:24] And in fact, I used it towards you just now. And that word, it's a three letter word and the word is not. And the way that we use it in the 1990s went something like this. That's a really cool shirt, Jason. Not. Not. Right. And then, oh yeah, I really like your car. Not, you know, it's like, sort of like negates the thing. Right. So we're going to, I just want to spend a few minutes putting that word in front of those three words. And maybe you have your own words, you know, not anxious, not overwhelmed, you know, whatever it is.
[00:12:53] But put that word out in front because we are, as we're leading in the church, we have a couple of things going for us. One, God loves us. The church belongs to him and it's going to be okay. Right. And this is, it's his project. We just get to be a part of it. It's his mission that he invites us into. And so we go, oh, first things first. I go, whew. That's, that allows us to put the word not out in front of all those words. Right. And so I just want to walk back through those.
[00:13:20] And I think my hope is one of the ideas that we talk about here is something that if you're facing change, you didn't ask for it. You can latch onto it and go, I want to take that step or I want to move in that direction. And these are all things that all of the pastors listening in, I know, you know, these things, but sometimes we need to be reminded of just how do we navigate stuff when it's hard and when life comes at us and change happens. So the first thing is we're not alone, not alone. We have God's presence in our lives.
[00:13:47] Of course, we have the promise of the Holy Spirit in our hearts to help us. And, um, but I think as, as, as important and true and as good as that is, one of the gifts that God also gives us is the gift of community with other people. Right. And so sometimes in that isolation, we can go to God in prayer and we should, we can go to God's word and be encouraged and we should, but we also need to do what you and I do every single week is reach out.
[00:14:15] Even when I'm running towards vacation and you're going back and forth to camp and graduation, we do this because we're, we, we believe this, that we're not alone. We're not alone in leadership and we're not alone in the, in the hard and good things that come in, in ministry. So, um, I was thinking about that and it reminded me of a story that my friend Michelle told me about riptides. I'm heading to Hawaii soon with my family. And of course, everybody's been warning us about riptides and be careful and what to do if you're caught in a riptide.
[00:14:44] Jason, do you know what to do if you're caught in a riptide? Of course I do. I grew up in California, man. Yeah. Yeah. You swim to the side, right? Or whatever. And, and also I'm like, is that really, I don't know. Okay. You don't fight it. Let it take you. And then you swim to the side. Let it take you. And in some ways, sometimes it'll bring you back to the beach actually is what I've heard. So anyway, first things first, I told my kids, just don't get caught in a riptide. But who, who purposely gets caught in a riptide, right? You're facing change that you didn't ask for. You're swimming along, snorkeling, doing whatever.
[00:15:13] And you look up and you're like, oh, this is a problem. And what Michelle was telling me is that many times people who drown in those circumstances, one, they don't know what to do. So they don't maybe know to go with the current, but they also try to fight it on their own. Like they go, I got myself into this. I'm going to get myself out of this. Right. And so then they struggle and they struggle.
[00:15:35] And, um, she was talking about this one time she was at the beach and she got caught in a riptide and her family were on the beach watching her swim. And they just thought she was out there having a good time because she wasn't asking for help. It just looked like she was swimming out there. And her brother, Mark was on the beach watching her and, and nobody responded because she wasn't asking for help. And so she said a lot of times when people drown in a riptide, they swim and swim and swim until they get to the point of exhaustion. And then they finally asked for help.
[00:16:05] And by then it's kind of too late. And so ask for help early, get support early, go, you know what? I'm stuck here. I'm going to keep fighting. I'm going to figure out, I'm going to do what I need to do. But Paul says, carry each other's burdens, right? Everybody's got to do their own part, but you got to carry each other's burdens. So I think that's for me facing change we didn't ask for. One of the first things we ought to do is go to God in prayer, say, Lord, here's what's going on, but also reach out to somebody and say, this just happened.
[00:16:35] Can you pray for me? Can you walk with me? Can you, can you just listen? Or, hey, you've been here before. Give me some input. What have you done? So that's a really important one to me. It really is. And I want to, you know, shout out to all of the introverts. Yes. Because your natural inclination is to do it yourself. Yeah. And not involve anybody else. And it's usually, I don't want to bother them.
[00:17:02] I don't want to, or I'm embarrassed that I need help or whatever. All that. You got to fight that. You can't, you can't let that win, that thought win because we need one another, especially when we're in these situations. And so I would just say, force yourself to reach out to somebody. Force vulnerability. So here's the thing. If you're kind of riptied, it may be embarrassing to get help and whatever, but you got to ask.
[00:17:31] And that means being vulnerable, right? Putting yourself out there. And I struggle with that. I'm an extrovert, Jason. I hate it too. I'm a DIYer at heart. All right, good. I feel a little better. Yeah. I think leaders, not just introverts, but I think leaders in general tend to be, we go to the self-help section. We look for, you know, how to improve, how to grow, how to be better at whatever. And we're DIYers at heart a lot of times. Some of us are really good at delegation and all that, but oh man, it's a struggle, right? So don't DIY your way through a crisis.
[00:18:01] Reach out, ask for help if you're facing change that you didn't ask for. And so Jason, you and I, I love that that's baked in for us. You know, we always say this. Almost probably so often people are like, you've said that so many times. But some of our best conversations are the ones that happen before and after we record because we're just processing life and leadership. So, yeah, so reach out. But it may mean that you have to be vulnerable and take a risk. But vulnerability is how trust is built when there's sort of a willingness to be vulnerable.
[00:18:31] So be wise, but be vulnerable. So first things first, Jason, we're not alone, not alone. And maybe that's all people need to hear. We're not alone. But I wanted to get to the other two maybe a little more briefly, but just thinking about it, it's not final. Because God's involved in our lives. The thing that we're going through now, it's not final. It will give way to something else. Time will tell the story. It'll some other crisis will come along instead, right?
[00:18:59] Those sleepless nights will slowly work their way through and we'll start to get our feet back under us again or whatever. And I think sometimes we just have to remind ourselves that in the heat of the moment, it's not final. Not only is there more to come beyond this life, like this is a moment, a blip in the radar of eternity, but it's still a big deal for us right now. And so how do we kind of keep that tension between it? It's not final, but I can only be where I am.
[00:19:28] At least for me, knowing that I'm going to get to the other side of this at some point, because I have awesome people that I'm walking with that are supporting me through it. But it gives me what I need to keep moving through the thing that I'm facing, even though it feels really heavy right now. So have you ever had an experience, Jason? You know, I have an example I want to share, but where something happened in your life and it just felt like, I don't know that it's ever going to get better or be different. Like it feels so final. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we all have.
[00:19:57] I think really the beating heart of this idea is to trust in what you can't see and only God can see. And I was thinking about this this last week. I actually used this in the sermon on Sunday. I was saying, you know, a couple weeks ago I was on my way to work and there was a detour.
[00:20:20] And I found myself really unduly annoyed that I had to take extra five minutes to go around because I have no patience. And I was thinking, though, this is sort of like life when these things happen is we're following God's plan. Everything seems to make sense. We're cruising along and then bam, detour. And we're like, God, what happened? What's going on? I thought we were going this way. I thought, you know, what's what's happening? And and.
[00:20:48] I need to trust that maybe the detour is God's direction. Maybe that's exactly what he wants. And I need to lean into that. I need to trust that this season, even though I don't like it or I don't like the detour that I'm on. And this is. Exactly how God wants to shift my focus and perspective or teach me something or use something in order to get where we want to go. And in the end, this is the best way. Yeah.
[00:21:18] It's so hard when you're stuck at a red light and you're like, it's taken forever. Yeah. Like, is it ever going to change? Is it ever going to be different? And and it feels awful or it feels like excruciating. And I think force change can help. Like you were saying, it can feel like a detour like this. I didn't ask for this thing. Now it feels like it's always going to be this way. And it's hard.
[00:21:40] And, you know, I was looking at, remember, of course, you probably sang this last Sunday, Jason, but this song, Great is Thy Faithfulness. And it's so good. Thomas Chisholm wrote it in the 20s or something like that. And just a powerful refrain. We all know it so well. But I mean, just think about the words. It comes from Lamentations chapter three. You know, great is your faithfulness. Your compassions never fail. They're new every morning, right? Your mercies are new every morning.
[00:22:07] And so in the darkness of a moment where it feels like it's going to be like this forever, you know, that refrain is like, trust, trust me. Trust that there is a new day. Trust there is a new morning coming. And you're going to get there. It might not be on the timeline that you're wanting. But remember, it won't always be like this or you're going to make it through this. And I think that's important for us to hold on to on to that as well.
[00:22:31] And I remember when I was working in college ministry, I had this awesome year in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And I loved it. And it was about halfway through the year, maybe two-thirds of the way through the year. And I was like, hey, I would love to stay another year and work on staff here. And my boss there was like, actually, the answer is no. It was brutal. And I was like, tell me more. Like, what? And he's like, you're not going to grow if you stay here.
[00:22:59] You need to go to the next thing. And I had no next thing at that point. And it just felt like this really final thing. Like, well, I guess that's the end of that experiment and who knows. And then it was, you know, months later that an opportunity came up for me to go work at First Pres San Antonio as the college director. Something I never would have thought of or even, you know, even had on my, kind of on the horizon of my life. So, you know, it felt final. It gave way to something else.
[00:23:27] And when you're in your 20s, you know, that kind of happens maybe more quickly. But I think later in life and leadership, when we go through hard life difficulties or change just happens, we go, we got to hold on to that same perspective. This will give way. God's mercies are new every morning. There's going to be a new day. I won't always feel this intensely about this change. All those things are just important for us to hold on to. Funny, Great Is Thy Faithfulness, written at Ocean Grove. Oh, was it? Well, there you go. Thomas Chisholm. Did I tell the story right?
[00:23:56] Was it 1920s? I don't know. The guy that wrote it, I believe, was a pastor and then it didn't work. And so he went on and so like insurance or finance or something. And imagine there was, but being able to say those words in the context of some transition and change that maybe wasn't his favorite or wasn't his idea. He was able to still proclaim that I trust you, God. You are faithful. So it's not final. That's the last one. Not final. You're going to get through.
[00:24:26] So whatever you're going through right now, a new day will come. Hopefully sooner than later. Sometimes those red lights seem like they take forever. Those detours take you the long way around. The last one is not wasted. And I don't know, you probably talk about this one in different ways, but you already kind of alluded to this, Jason. I think you're spot on. When we go through hard things or we face change that we didn't ask for, it really is the opportunity to grow. I mean, as much as that's trite to say, like, we grow through loss.
[00:24:56] We just do. We grow through suffering, Paul says, suffering, perseverance, character, character, hope, et cetera. Like it's part of our experience on this side of heaven, right? It just is. When we go through a change or something difficult, it does something in us that refines us or we're sort of forged in the fire and our character deepens. And so it's not wasted. That change that maybe you didn't ask for, that may not be good in and of itself, just on the surface of it.
[00:25:24] It's not objectively good. But God can use that for his purpose in our life still. Help us learn, help us grow. So I think the posture that we take, I mean, we're allowed to have big emotions about stuff that's hard, right? Do that. Talk about it with somebody. Process it. Get coaching. Get counseling if you need it. But then seeing it this way, framing it in the context of, okay, God, this is not what I would have chosen, but I trust you. I know it's not final. And what are you doing in me?
[00:25:54] Like, how am I growing because of this? What should I be learning because of this? And how can I be your person more and more and a better pastor and a better leader because of the experience of going through this change that I didn't ask for? So I think that's just maybe a landing point for us just to keep on our radar is what's our approach or the framework that we're going to put this in? Is it going to be resentment, frustration? I give up? Or is it how am I growing and what am I learning?
[00:26:24] Because I tell you, Jason, that's what you and I would tell somebody else, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another thing to actually know. I wonder what God's doing in your life in the midst of this season of change. That's exactly what I would say. And anyway, so maybe we need to be a little more thoughtful about how we say that to other people and the intensity of change. But it's also true for us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:46] I think, again, as long as I would say that the caveat is as long as we are trying to faithfully listen to what God says and to do it. Because if we're not, if we're out of alignment, we may suffer because it's our own fault. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, when it comes to this, I think, again, it's trusting.
[00:27:13] I just keep coming back to the phrase, it's trusting what only God can see. That's right. And trusting that if he really did create me and has a plan and purpose for my life, I need to trust that whatever he's cooking up is worth it. It is not wasted. It gives purpose to suffering. It does. Yeah. And I would even say that sometimes when it's our own doing, even, it's not wasted in God's hands. Yeah. We blew it. God can leverage it.
[00:27:43] That's God's opportunity. It's like endure hardship as discipline. I'm like, no, that doesn't sound very fun. Or, man, I put my foot on my mouth and now there's some consequences and this is not good. But how can God redeem that in some way? Or how can I allow, you know, as I process through that, get to a better place so that it is not wasted? And I would really say this is, you know, maybe we just, maybe that's a phrase you write down, put it on a sticky note or put it on your wall.
[00:28:10] In God's hands, the hard things, the change that we didn't ask for, life difficulties, in God's hands, they're not wasted. It doesn't mean God did them or, you know, whatever. It just means they're not going to go to waste. Suffering itself doesn't go to waste. So there's a whole nother conversation on that topic. But I hope this is encouraging on someone. Maybe it's summertime and there's some things blowing up or change that you're facing in your personal life or in ministry or, you know, in your organization that you're leading.
[00:28:38] And you might be feeling alone or like it feels final, like it'll never be different. Or what's it all for us? It feels wasted. What's going on? Put that word not out in front of there, Jason, and put it into the context of God's promises. And I think that's where we can be reassured. We still got to face the change. We still got to go through it, but we're not alone. It's not final and it's not wasted. So there you have it. Good stuff.
[00:29:02] And an important reminder because, you know, if we haven't all been there, we will be as we face change we didn't ask for. So thank you. Thank you, Jesse, for bringing this to us. And I think next week we'll talk about facing change we did ask for. I like it. Let's do it. That's our favorite kind. Yeah. Because I was realizing it's been almost a year since I talked about the big Sunday morning change that we were going to make this last fall. And I want to just report back. There was a real high cost to it relationally. Right.
[00:29:31] And yet there's also incredible blessing. So looking back sort of up up telescope or periscope and like, hey, how did it go now? Almost a year into the decision to make the change. So we'll talk a little bit about that. Something about embracing a posture towards change, whether it was our idea or somebody else's idea. It's just a big and important part of leadership. So really good stuff, Jason. And if you're caught in the riptide as you're listening and you're like, man, I need some support.
[00:30:01] I need some help. Find those people in your life. Find the Jason or Jesse for you or reach out to us. We always love hearing from pastors and church leaders. So Jason or Jesse at reclaimleader.com. And we'd love to just be a support and encouragement to you and to everybody listening. Thanks for tuning in. We're glad to be on the journey with you. Yeah. And if you've listened to us before, you know, I mean, this is our tagline. Ministry is hard. It's so much better when we do it together. All right, everyone. Thanks so much. And we will catch you next week.