[00:00:00] You get it in your head that they just don't fail. They're just stacking up wins or failure is something that's in their past. And that's just not true. There are all sorts of things that don't go the way that we hope or that need to get fixed. It's kind of like, even if you have a healthy body, every once in a while you get an infection. Doesn't mean you're not healthy, but you got to take care of that infection quickly or else it can lead to some pretty bad things.
[00:00:30] Welcome to episode 354. Today we're talking about a real time ministry challenge at my church, how it happened and what we're doing about it. How we're closing a leadership gap with our elders. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:53] Hey everyone, welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact.
[00:01:02] We share the ups and downs of ministry strategies that worked for us and some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership.
[00:01:12] And the goal, of course, is to help all of our churches to flourish. I'm Jason Tucker. Jesse is on assignment, AKA vacation. I guess we let him do that every once in a while. So I'm flying solo today. It's been a while since I've had to do this and it is never quite as fun, but hopefully it is helpful for you.
[00:01:32] For you and your ministry. And hey man, I'm here for you. That's the kind of commitment we're talking about.
[00:01:39] So before I get into the topic today, I have an ask for you. Would you please leave us a review? If this podcast has been helping you and, you know, maybe you've been sharing it with colleagues or with your churches, it'd be really great to help get the word out.
[00:01:55] So as the kids say, smash that subscribe button. Wherever you listen to this podcast, if you would subscribe on the platform of your choice and leave us a review, that really helps us to get found.
[00:02:07] That's one of the big challenges that we have. We're such a niche in the world of podcasting. So it's really great to get the word out for us.
[00:02:16] And I'm excited. You know, this is, I feel like this is a bit of a transition time in the life of the podcast. We're going to be making a few changes and we're going to be doing a lot more video.
[00:02:27] We're way late on this, but because Jesse and I are both full-time passers, it's like, who's got time to figure out social media strategies and video and all of that. It's just like an extra lay of work.
[00:02:41] So we're trying to figure out how do we make it part of our routine in such a way that it's not taking a ton of extra time and it's as cheap as possible.
[00:02:51] So, right. I mean, listen, we are you, you get, you guys get us.
[00:02:56] Um, so here's what I'm talking about today. Today is kind of a downer in a way, as far as a challenge that we're facing as a church, but it's also part of a rollercoaster.
[00:03:08] If you're a subscriber to our email newsletter, this just came out today and there's more in the newsletter about it.
[00:03:17] Just talking about the rollercoaster and all the good and the bad and the ugly in these last couple of weeks and why there haven't been a lot of podcast updates in the last couple of weeks.
[00:03:25] For them, because we have been in the middle of the ministry rollercoaster. And in a lot of ways, you know, our church has certainly been on a roll.
[00:03:38] We've been on this growth streak and the numbers are so exciting. Even though we know that numbers aren't everything, there is something exciting when the numbers go up into the right.
[00:03:50] Right. And we were doing some number crunching on this. In five years, we have gone. So the year before the pandemic, we have grown 67% in worship attendance.
[00:04:05] Over 200 people a week. We're worshiping over 200 people a week more than we were two years ago.
[00:04:13] And in fact, we have more people worshiping with us in our church than any time in our church's history, which is like these are all incredibly exciting, amazing things.
[00:04:25] And we're just coming off the heels of a really big ministry weekend for us. We hosted a band. I don't know if you're familiar with King's Kaleidoscope.
[00:04:34] They became known through the Mars Hill podcast, the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. They used King's Kaleidoscope as the theme song.
[00:04:43] They're one of their songs, Sticks and Stones. And part of it's because they were the worship band or one of the worship bands at one of the Mars Hill campuses.
[00:04:55] So we had them in. It was a really cool opportunity. We had them in for a concert Saturday night and they led music for us in worship on Sunday morning, which was really great.
[00:05:05] And maybe surprisingly, they did. It was all hymns. They just took hymns and they did these really cool arrangements to them, which was awesome.
[00:05:13] So that was a real positive thing. And then that night we went to the beach for our third annual beach baptism.
[00:05:23] And we had about 10 first timers, first time adults getting baptized and maybe a dozen or so or a dozen and a half who wanted to remember their baptism.
[00:05:33] We do both at that event. And I got to tell you, it was it was a reminder.
[00:05:39] I mean, this is why I became a pastor for those moments.
[00:05:44] I mean, the stories that you hear mothers and daughters getting baptized, college students, high school students, the stories around why they want to get baptized.
[00:05:55] I mean, truly. So much joy, so much, so many tears of joy.
[00:06:02] It was just awesome. It was just a reminder like this is why I do what I do.
[00:06:08] And with all of the wonderful wins that we've had.
[00:06:13] And I mean, truly, and this is something that didn't just happen.
[00:06:17] I mean, we put so much blood, sweat and tears into building a healthy church and rooting out broken systems and dysfunctional behavior.
[00:06:25] But we're certainly not perfect and not without our problems.
[00:06:29] So in the middle of all this great stuff happening, we have a challenge that we got to figure out.
[00:06:36] And I want to take you back a little bit as we set the stage for explaining this challenge and then what we're going to do about it.
[00:06:44] So our strategy as a church here at Tower Hill began 12 years ago when I started.
[00:06:50] And the goal, really, the decision was made.
[00:06:52] We're going to plant a church within an existing church or more specifically,
[00:06:57] we're going to plant a younger, more contemporary church within the existing older traditional church.
[00:07:06] And we knew from the beginning it wasn't just about worship style.
[00:07:09] It wasn't just the worship wars per se where we were going to do a different style of worship.
[00:07:15] We knew that in order to think intergenerationally or think about younger generations,
[00:07:21] we had to rethink all the different ways we were expressing being the church together.
[00:07:26] We take into account different needs and expectations and different baggage and so on and so forth.
[00:07:34] So we planted a church within the church while working for the flourishing of the indigenous church.
[00:07:40] And that's incredibly complicated.
[00:07:43] So to make that omelet, you have to break some eggs, as they say.
[00:07:47] And we certainly did.
[00:07:48] And I want to zero in on specifically, so we're a Presbyterian church and elder governed.
[00:07:55] The kind of elder culture that we had to work with and changes we knew we had to make.
[00:08:02] So our elder culture when I got here was certainly there was some resistance to change.
[00:08:08] There was a lot of openness to change too.
[00:08:10] People knew that we had been losing a lot of young families over the years
[00:08:14] to more contemporary churches that were able to offer some different things.
[00:08:19] But definitely on the dynamic on that session when I came in was there were several kind of gatekeepers.
[00:08:30] Self-proclaimed guardians of the past.
[00:08:34] And yeah, there was a little bit of sabotage involved in some of the change that we were making.
[00:08:39] That's par for the course.
[00:08:42] I think at the time, I didn't realize it was par for the course.
[00:08:46] So that was stressful.
[00:08:48] There were a lot of control issues.
[00:08:53] There's a lot of kind of confusion with the staff.
[00:08:57] We didn't have a big staff.
[00:08:58] But the elders sort of saw themselves as in charge of the staff because they're hired by the session.
[00:09:07] And what would happen is you'd have a head of staff pastor.
[00:09:11] And there were just two pastors, but one the head of staff.
[00:09:14] And then you'd have like 15 other bosses.
[00:09:16] So there was like the youth ministry person felt like they had to answer to their youth ministry elder
[00:09:22] and all the other elders if they asked them to do something.
[00:09:25] And it got confusing.
[00:09:26] And then it's like, who am I listening to?
[00:09:28] There's kind of a culture of micromanaging the staff and trying to make trench-level decisions
[00:09:35] from back in the command post.
[00:09:37] In other words, session members who didn't really know or understand what was going on in the trenches
[00:09:44] trying to make decisions for the people in the trenches.
[00:09:48] And it was not always the best decisions because you're not really listening to what's needed up front.
[00:09:53] You're just sort of guessing at it.
[00:09:56] So it wasn't efficient.
[00:09:58] It wasn't helpful.
[00:09:59] It wasn't going to get us to where we needed to go.
[00:10:01] We knew we had to change the culture.
[00:10:03] That was one thing.
[00:10:04] There were a lot of different things.
[00:10:05] Again, not all bad.
[00:10:07] They never would have hired me if it was all bad.
[00:10:09] So certainly there was some support and some vision and all of that.
[00:10:14] But it was a culture that needed some new life, let's say.
[00:10:19] Needed an infusion of vision and imagination.
[00:10:22] So we had to change the culture.
[00:10:24] So we started working toward this idea.
[00:10:27] And this wasn't new to us.
[00:10:30] You know, I've heard this elsewhere and heard other churches use this elsewhere.
[00:10:34] But the idea of being staff-led instead of elder-led.
[00:10:39] And I don't mean forsaking or absconding the responsibility of our elders who are responsible to lead.
[00:10:48] But rather the staff leading the ministry strategies.
[00:10:54] The staff knowing, because they're in the trenches, how to make the entrenched decisions and what's needed.
[00:11:00] And for the elders to be in conversation with the staff about what's needed.
[00:11:04] And to do what they can to support the overall vision.
[00:11:08] Vision, mission, strategy.
[00:11:09] So how do we create a budget that supports what the staff need to get X done?
[00:11:14] So on and so far.
[00:11:15] So the mantra that we adopted that is used in several places was staff-led, elder-governed, and people-gifted.
[00:11:24] Staff-led, elder-governed, and people-gifted.
[00:11:27] In other words, the staff are making critical decisions, day-to-day ministry stuff.
[00:11:33] The elders are providing supervision and support.
[00:11:37] And the people are the ones called to do the work.
[00:11:40] It's the people's work to do, not the staff, not the elders, but the people.
[00:11:45] We also knew we had to streamline the bosses.
[00:11:48] So we had to make very clear who did everybody report to and not to get in the way of that.
[00:11:54] We wanted to make sure that we were making command post decisions in conversation with those in the trenches.
[00:12:03] Support the ones who know what to do next.
[00:12:06] Create a culture of collaboration, building trust, people that play well together.
[00:12:12] And we saw a complete turnaround.
[00:12:15] And it didn't happen overnight.
[00:12:17] It took a few years.
[00:12:18] But once things started to turn, it felt like they turned quickly.
[00:12:22] And all of a sudden, we had buy-in and we had excitement.
[00:12:26] But then another problem emerged.
[00:12:29] And I would say it was really fueled by the pandemic.
[00:12:36] So in the pandemic, what had happened, like what happened probably at your church and many churches,
[00:12:43] was that we had to take things that elders and deacons and volunteers were doing,
[00:12:49] and the staff had to do them.
[00:12:51] At least here in New Jersey, we were completely locked down.
[00:12:55] We had to make decisions like all of a sudden everything was back on my plate
[00:13:00] because I was one of the few that was allowed in the building.
[00:13:03] We just kind of took everything from the people in order to get them done.
[00:13:07] And the problem is we haven't done a great job of handing it all back
[00:13:12] to the elders, to the deacons, to the volunteers.
[00:13:15] Plus, as you've probably noticed, people are just different since the pandemic.
[00:13:19] The way that people commit their time, the way that people are overextended and exhausted,
[00:13:25] it was already bad before.
[00:13:27] It seems like it's worse now.
[00:13:28] And it's harder and harder for folks to commit anyway when it comes to volunteering.
[00:13:34] We're seeing this everywhere.
[00:13:38] And I'll say more about this problem in a minute,
[00:13:40] but it's culminated in something that happened last week.
[00:13:44] And that is for the first time in my 12 years here and in my 15 years as a pastor,
[00:13:50] it was the first time I have ever had to cancel a session meeting,
[00:13:54] an elder meeting, because we didn't have a quorum.
[00:13:58] Now, our requirements are that we just have a simple majority,
[00:14:02] which means we need eight elders in order to have a quorum to conduct business,
[00:14:07] and we couldn't get eight.
[00:14:09] And it was all reasons that made sense.
[00:14:12] Hey, I'm dropping my kid off at school.
[00:14:15] Hey, we're on vacation.
[00:14:17] We're on this, this, this.
[00:14:18] But here's the thing.
[00:14:21] As surprised as I was, I could see it coming,
[00:14:24] because I don't think it was just a schedule problem.
[00:14:27] In fact, I know it wasn't.
[00:14:28] It's been something that's been building for a while.
[00:14:32] And what I've felt over the last few months,
[00:14:35] probably the last year,
[00:14:37] is staff-led, elder-governed, people gifted has a potential negative side.
[00:14:47] It's negative in the sense that it's created disengagement
[00:14:53] from our elder board, from our elder team.
[00:14:57] And they have less to do,
[00:15:00] because things had been taken from their plate,
[00:15:03] and they're trusting that the staff are getting all the things done,
[00:15:08] because they have a lot of trust in the staff.
[00:15:12] What's happened is, though, is quite accidentally,
[00:15:15] we have created a really good elder board.
[00:15:21] We've created more disengagement
[00:15:24] as a result of what's happened over the last few years.
[00:15:27] It was a combination of that philosophy of staff-led, elder-governed,
[00:15:31] combined with the pandemic of us taking all the things
[00:15:34] and doing them as a staff and not pushing them back out.
[00:15:37] So I think the elders feel underutilized,
[00:15:41] or they feel like they don't need to be in the weeds,
[00:15:44] or they don't need to do the tasks that need to get done.
[00:15:47] So this is a real challenge that we have.
[00:15:49] And I was bummed last week when we couldn't do session.
[00:15:55] And like I said, it's the ministry roller coaster.
[00:15:57] We have so many things.
[00:15:58] There's such a big win and such a great weekend.
[00:16:00] But at the same time, there's always a challenge.
[00:16:05] And here's the other thing.
[00:16:06] So that's the first thing of why I could see it coming,
[00:16:10] that this was happening,
[00:16:11] was the staff-led, elder-governed, people-gifted part.
[00:16:14] But also, the second thing,
[00:16:16] and I alluded to this when I was talking about the pandemic,
[00:16:18] is that our people are maxed out.
[00:16:21] They are absolutely stressed out, maxed out on time.
[00:16:25] So they're showing up.
[00:16:26] Our rhythm is that we have session,
[00:16:28] have always and forever, amen,
[00:16:30] had session meetings once a month on Tuesday nights at 7.30.
[00:16:35] What's happening is,
[00:16:36] and I've noticed this really since the pandemic,
[00:16:38] is people are showing up on fumes.
[00:16:41] They are tapped out.
[00:16:43] They're exhausted.
[00:16:43] And so they don't want to get into long,
[00:16:46] deep conversations about a lot of things.
[00:16:48] They just like, looks good enough.
[00:16:50] Let's do it.
[00:16:51] So in a way,
[00:16:54] this combined with the third thing,
[00:16:59] which is there's a cachet of trust
[00:17:03] that's been built over the years
[00:17:04] that can actually lead to apathy.
[00:17:07] Maybe apathy is too strong a word
[00:17:09] for what we're experiencing,
[00:17:11] but what happens is,
[00:17:12] the session has seen everything in our ministry
[00:17:16] and what the staff is doing.
[00:17:18] It's all working.
[00:17:19] So in a way,
[00:17:21] we have the opposite problem we had 12 years ago
[00:17:24] when it felt like we had all these
[00:17:26] knockdown dragout meetings
[00:17:27] that went for hours and hours.
[00:17:29] Now, it almost feels a bit rubber stampy
[00:17:33] with the decisions we're making
[00:17:35] because there's so much trust
[00:17:36] that the decisions are going to be good.
[00:17:39] And so the fact that people are stressed out
[00:17:41] and tired, maxed out,
[00:17:43] combined with a cachet of trust
[00:17:45] has actually had maybe a negative impact
[00:17:49] of, sure, great, sounds good.
[00:17:53] Let's get on with the meeting.
[00:17:55] Let's get it done as soon as we can.
[00:17:59] So in the face of this,
[00:18:02] I've been doing some soul searching
[00:18:03] over the last week, especially.
[00:18:05] It's been almost a week
[00:18:07] since that session meeting was canceled.
[00:18:09] And I had to ask myself two questions.
[00:18:11] These are two really important questions to ask.
[00:18:14] The first question is,
[00:18:16] how have I contributed to creating a culture
[00:18:19] that has allowed this to happen?
[00:18:23] Like, what can I own?
[00:18:26] I think this is an important question
[00:18:28] because I think it separates out
[00:18:30] that I don't have to own everything,
[00:18:33] but I do have to own up to,
[00:18:34] what's my part?
[00:18:36] What did I,
[00:18:37] what should I have done differently
[00:18:38] so that I learn
[00:18:39] and can figure out how to do it better?
[00:18:43] And then the second question is,
[00:18:46] what can I do to help fix it?
[00:18:49] What can I do to help fix it?
[00:18:50] Now, certainly, you know,
[00:18:51] the elders own their part.
[00:18:54] Us as a church, as an organization,
[00:18:56] we have, there's all different reasons
[00:18:58] and ownership is kind of everywhere,
[00:19:00] but what can I own?
[00:19:02] And how can I be a part of the solution?
[00:19:04] How can I be a part of fixing it?
[00:19:08] So here is what we're doing.
[00:19:10] This is real time.
[00:19:11] We're trying to figure it out in real time.
[00:19:13] And I wanted to share this episode
[00:19:14] because I think sometimes
[00:19:17] when you listen to a podcast
[00:19:20] or a speaker
[00:19:21] or another kind of successful ministry
[00:19:24] or something,
[00:19:25] you get it in your head
[00:19:26] that they just don't fail.
[00:19:28] They're just stacking up wins
[00:19:29] or failure is something
[00:19:31] that's in their past.
[00:19:33] And that's just not true.
[00:19:35] There are all sorts of things
[00:19:37] that don't go the way that we hope
[00:19:39] or that need to get fixed.
[00:19:42] It's kind of like,
[00:19:43] even if you have a healthy body,
[00:19:45] every once in a while,
[00:19:46] you get an infection.
[00:19:48] Doesn't mean you're not healthy,
[00:19:50] but you got to take care
[00:19:51] of that infection quickly
[00:19:52] or else it can lead
[00:19:54] to some pretty bad consequences.
[00:19:58] So for us,
[00:19:59] how do we fix it?
[00:20:00] This is what we're doing in real time.
[00:20:01] We are first and foremost praying
[00:20:03] that God gives us some clarity
[00:20:05] on what a good fix for us can be.
[00:20:09] And I know that sounds,
[00:20:12] gosh, it's ridiculous.
[00:20:13] I know, but it almost sounds trite.
[00:20:15] Yeah, we're praying about it.
[00:20:16] No, but really we are.
[00:20:17] And that always has to be the first step.
[00:20:21] And then we're going to try
[00:20:23] these couple of things.
[00:20:24] See what you think.
[00:20:26] The next thing,
[00:20:28] aside from prayer,
[00:20:28] is we're going to get elders back
[00:20:30] into some ministry tasks.
[00:20:34] One of those,
[00:20:35] a couple of low-hanging fruit
[00:20:36] ministry tasks
[00:20:37] are first
[00:20:38] to get them back
[00:20:39] to helping to serve communion.
[00:20:41] That was something
[00:20:42] that deacons have been doing
[00:20:43] for years.
[00:20:44] Well, let's get them back
[00:20:45] into participating
[00:20:46] into the actual ministry
[00:20:50] of what we're doing
[00:20:51] in a little bit different way.
[00:20:53] Let's get them back
[00:20:54] into some tasks.
[00:20:55] So we're going to
[00:20:56] just step one,
[00:20:57] get them back
[00:20:58] into helping with serving communion.
[00:21:00] There are some other things
[00:21:01] that we're going to have them
[00:21:02] jump back into doing,
[00:21:03] but that's a big one.
[00:21:06] The next thing we want to do
[00:21:07] is let's try to get
[00:21:09] some better energy
[00:21:10] with changing
[00:21:11] our meeting schedule.
[00:21:13] So we're going to try something.
[00:21:14] We're going to go for quality time
[00:21:16] over quantity.
[00:21:17] So here's what we're thinking.
[00:21:19] I have no idea
[00:21:20] if this is going to work,
[00:21:21] but I do think
[00:21:22] it's worth a try.
[00:21:23] Is we're going to go
[00:21:24] to an every other month
[00:21:26] meeting schedule
[00:21:28] and we're going to experiment
[00:21:29] with some different days
[00:21:30] of the week.
[00:21:31] So here's what we're thinking.
[00:21:33] This September,
[00:21:34] we're going to do
[00:21:35] a staff and session,
[00:21:39] call it a retreat
[00:21:40] just because
[00:21:41] it's a little bit more
[00:21:42] robust of a meeting,
[00:21:43] but we're going to do
[00:21:43] a Saturday morning
[00:21:45] we're going to go
[00:21:46] 830 to 1130 a.m.
[00:21:49] And we're going to do
[00:21:50] some visioning.
[00:21:51] We're going to tackle
[00:21:53] whatever business we need.
[00:21:54] And it's going to be
[00:21:54] our big kind of kickoff meeting
[00:21:56] that starts with
[00:21:57] staff and session
[00:21:59] talking about
[00:22:00] all of our ministry
[00:22:01] needs and strategies
[00:22:03] for this upcoming year.
[00:22:04] So hopefully this creates
[00:22:06] some more
[00:22:06] synergy
[00:22:07] and some more
[00:22:09] sort of organic
[00:22:10] participation
[00:22:11] and buy-in.
[00:22:13] And we hope
[00:22:15] this is going to lead
[00:22:16] to,
[00:22:16] and this is the next thing,
[00:22:18] better collaboration
[00:22:18] with our leadership team,
[00:22:20] which for us
[00:22:21] means our director
[00:22:22] level staff positions.
[00:22:25] We want the leadership
[00:22:26] team
[00:22:26] and the elders
[00:22:27] to be in the same
[00:22:30] brainstorming process
[00:22:31] for what we're going
[00:22:32] to do,
[00:22:33] how we're going to do it.
[00:22:34] So again,
[00:22:35] they have ownership,
[00:22:36] more ownership
[00:22:37] of the mission,
[00:22:38] vision,
[00:22:39] strategy.
[00:22:40] And one of the things
[00:22:41] we did was
[00:22:42] we did a little bit
[00:22:43] of team realignment
[00:22:45] and I created
[00:22:46] a new team
[00:22:47] or we created
[00:22:48] a new team,
[00:22:48] it was voted on,
[00:22:50] but we created
[00:22:51] a vision team.
[00:22:51] So there's now
[00:22:52] a session team
[00:22:53] that is itself
[00:22:54] a vision team
[00:22:56] that will be
[00:22:57] bringing vision
[00:22:58] strategies
[00:22:59] and ideas
[00:23:00] to the overall session.
[00:23:02] So,
[00:23:03] prayer,
[00:23:04] getting elders back
[00:23:05] into ministry tasks,
[00:23:06] getting better energy
[00:23:07] with a change of schedule
[00:23:08] and better collaboration
[00:23:09] with the leadership team
[00:23:11] by bringing them
[00:23:12] into the brainstorming
[00:23:14] visioning phase
[00:23:15] early.
[00:23:16] Those are the things
[00:23:17] we're going to try
[00:23:18] and I will let you know
[00:23:19] if this works.
[00:23:22] So,
[00:23:22] why am I sharing this?
[00:23:24] Again,
[00:23:24] it's not just about
[00:23:25] the challenge,
[00:23:26] but maybe this will
[00:23:27] encourage you
[00:23:27] to work toward
[00:23:28] better elder engagement
[00:23:29] and balance
[00:23:30] with staff.
[00:23:30] I'm not sure
[00:23:31] if this is an issue
[00:23:32] that you have.
[00:23:33] Maybe it's not.
[00:23:35] But again,
[00:23:35] just because
[00:23:36] you may be
[00:23:37] a healthy church
[00:23:38] or even
[00:23:39] a moderately
[00:23:40] healthy church
[00:23:41] doesn't mean
[00:23:41] you don't need
[00:23:42] to deal with
[00:23:43] sickness from time
[00:23:44] to time.
[00:23:44] You just have
[00:23:45] to catch it early.
[00:23:46] So,
[00:23:47] we're trying
[00:23:47] to catch it early.
[00:23:48] That's what
[00:23:48] we're trying
[00:23:48] to do
[00:23:49] and hopefully
[00:23:50] this helps us
[00:23:51] continue to grow
[00:23:52] and be
[00:23:53] a healthier church.
[00:23:55] Hey,
[00:23:56] thanks so much
[00:23:56] for listening
[00:23:57] and next week
[00:23:58] we'll be back
[00:23:59] with some new content
[00:24:00] and Jesse's
[00:24:01] going to be back
[00:24:02] from vacation
[00:24:02] so we're going
[00:24:03] to be ready
[00:24:03] to roll
[00:24:04] but thanks so much
[00:24:05] for being a part
[00:24:06] of the Reclaim Leader
[00:24:07] community.
[00:24:07] Again,
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[00:24:25] All right,
[00:24:26] everyone,
[00:24:26] thanks for listening.
[00:24:27] We're back
[00:24:28] next week
[00:24:28] with more
[00:24:29] church health
[00:24:30] goodness.
[00:24:31] All right,
[00:24:31] have a great week.
[00:24:32] La Puget Surrey,
[00:24:33] have a great week.
[00:24:33] bye.
[00:24:34] Bye,