[00:00:00] And what I've found is, and this may be surprising to some of the pastors listening, is what I found is sometimes it doesn't mean momentum isn't just a result of like we did some big ministry massive initiative or program.
[00:00:15] In fact, it's quite the opposite. Oftentimes, momentum happens from just being excited about a small thing.
[00:00:23] Welcome to Episode 356. Momentum is a bit of a mystery. How do you capture it? How do you know you have it? And is there a way to actually create it?
[00:00:35] But when it comes to church life, if you focus on this four-legged stool of ministry, there's a good chance you'll generate momentum.
[00:00:43] That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:45] Welcome to the Reclaimed Leader podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:54] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact.
[00:01:00] We share the ups and downs of ministry strategies that worked for us. And some that didn't.
[00:01:05] Best practices and practical tools for church leadership.
[00:01:08] The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.
[00:01:13] Alright, we are back. And today, Jesse, we are talking about little thing called momentum.
[00:01:21] Momentum and I got a story about momentum. But first, speaking of momentum, I want to invite everybody.
[00:01:26] Hey, if you've been listening to the podcast for a while and it's been helpful for you and meaningful for you,
[00:01:32] will you do me a favor and share this episode with a colleague or two?
[00:01:37] And or leave us a review on your platform of choice.
[00:01:41] This is the way that we get the word out about the podcast and continue to help more and more pastors,
[00:01:46] which is what we are really passionate about. We need some momentum in that area, Jesse.
[00:01:52] I need some momentum, Jesse.
[00:01:53] So talking about momentum, my favorite story about momentum was as a Lakers fan
[00:02:03] back in the Kobe Shack days when we had an embarrassment of riches talent-wise.
[00:02:11] But we were losing. Basically, we were up three games to none in the Western Conference finals against the Portland Trail Blazers.
[00:02:23] I don't know if this is a sore spot for you, Jesse.
[00:02:28] But you have no love for Portland, right?
[00:02:30] I have to have the opposite of love.
[00:02:32] Okay, so I'm just making sure I got the vibe over here.
[00:02:35] The Seattle Super Tonks guy, I have some for the Oklahoma people that stole our team and for Howard told them.
[00:02:40] But that's a whole other podcast for another time.
[00:02:42] And that Thunder team was awesome.
[00:02:44] Anyway, sorry to rub that in.
[00:02:47] So the Lakers, they were up three games to none.
[00:02:50] The Trail Blazers come back and they tie it three games to three.
[00:02:54] And you just sort of felt like this thing was over.
[00:02:57] But Lakers had home field advantage, home court advantage.
[00:03:01] And it wasn't going well in that game seven.
[00:03:05] They were losing and how do you know Kobe wasn't a superstar yet.
[00:03:09] But they were losing every down 15 points going into the fourth quarter.
[00:03:13] People were leaving.
[00:03:15] I think Jack Nicholson probably peaced out by then.
[00:03:18] I don't remember.
[00:03:19] I just remember watching this game like I can't believe we're going to lose game seven.
[00:03:23] And then Derek Fisher hits a three.
[00:03:28] And then Shaq starts dunking on guys.
[00:03:32] And all of a sudden they're chipping away at this lead.
[00:03:36] And about halfway through the fourth, you sort of got a little bit of a feeling like,
[00:03:41] Hey, if they can put together a little run here, maybe this game isn't over.
[00:03:46] And they went on this incredible scoring run one after another.
[00:03:51] And each time the Lakers scored, the crowd got louder and louder.
[00:03:56] It's like as they were witnessing in real time, something changed.
[00:04:01] I don't know what changed, but the momentum in this game was so big that when we got,
[00:04:06] when they tied it and I remember this play, I think it was,
[00:04:09] and somebody needs to double check this on video.
[00:04:13] I'll go double check myself, but I believe it was a Kobe to Shaq alley.
[00:04:17] You that tied the game with like three minutes left and everybody in that stadium
[00:04:25] knew what I knew watching the game.
[00:04:27] The Lakers are going to win.
[00:04:28] Yeah.
[00:04:29] There's no way they lose this game.
[00:04:31] There was something about the momentum that you knew there is no way it was
[00:04:35] going to go any other way.
[00:04:36] Sure enough, they win game seven and they went on to win the championship
[00:04:40] that year.
[00:04:43] Momentum is a mysterious thing.
[00:04:46] And a lot of folks, when they have it, they don't know why.
[00:04:51] And when they lose it, they don't know why.
[00:04:54] I think it would be interesting and what we're in kind of what to talk about
[00:04:57] over the next few weeks is what is church momentum?
[00:05:01] What is ministry momentum?
[00:05:03] What does it look like?
[00:05:04] Can you can you get momentum going and how do you do that?
[00:05:09] And what are the different ways that it shows up in the life of the church?
[00:05:14] Because a lot of churches are really hungry for Jesse.
[00:05:17] And this is what people talked to was like, well, how do I get things rolling?
[00:05:23] How do I get things rolling?
[00:05:25] How about you when you've experienced momentum in the life of your church?
[00:05:30] What are some signs that you have it like that feeling like, you know,
[00:05:34] we're not going to lose.
[00:05:35] We're going to go keep going forward.
[00:05:38] I think there is for me, maybe the one of the main indicators is when I'm hearing
[00:05:43] people sticking around and continuing to have conversations after a meeting
[00:05:47] or after a worship service or an event.
[00:05:50] I go something's in the air right now that is an indication that we have
[00:05:54] some forward momentum.
[00:05:55] And you know the opposite when something's over and everybody just
[00:05:59] immediately shuts their notebooks and leaves the meeting or, you know,
[00:06:02] this worship service ends and everybody heads for the doors.
[00:06:04] You know, when it's not there.
[00:06:06] So how did we get there?
[00:06:08] Well, there's a lot that we're going to talk about related to that.
[00:06:10] But one of the things I notice is there's something in the air that people
[00:06:15] kind of like that crowd.
[00:06:17] They start to feel good.
[00:06:19] They start to stick around.
[00:06:20] They start to lean in and it sort of has this catalytic effect that
[00:06:24] picks up even more momentum.
[00:06:26] And I don't, you know, it's one of those things that when you have it,
[00:06:29] you're just kind of looking around grateful for it and going,
[00:06:33] how do you re-produce this?
[00:06:35] Can you?
[00:06:36] Is there a method or a strategy that maybe more than anything,
[00:06:39] it's not forcing it but creating the environment where momentum becomes
[00:06:44] possible.
[00:06:45] And that's I think the thing.
[00:06:46] Derek Fisher could have missed that three.
[00:06:48] Yeah.
[00:06:49] He hit the shot and that got the ball rolling.
[00:06:51] And then there was consistency that built on top of that.
[00:06:55] Yeah.
[00:06:55] I think momentum is, you know, we've talked about the flywheel in
[00:06:59] the past.
[00:07:00] Momentum is a flywheel that takes a lot of energy to get going.
[00:07:03] But once it does, it moves with incredible and it feels almost
[00:07:08] unstoppable force.
[00:07:10] Now I do want to make a note.
[00:07:14] I don't know if I've made up my mind on this, but I think in church
[00:07:18] world, in spiritual world, we would use the word revival perhaps
[00:07:25] to talk about momentum that's happening in the church.
[00:07:28] Maybe that's too strong of a word.
[00:07:30] Maybe that's not necessarily the same thing, but I think they're
[00:07:32] related.
[00:07:33] Yeah.
[00:07:34] That it's consistency and enthusiasm for the work of God
[00:07:40] over time.
[00:07:41] Yeah.
[00:07:42] There's sort of a vitality that comes with that consistency
[00:07:45] and enthusiasm over time that looks like momentum.
[00:07:49] It's things are going well.
[00:07:51] I couldn't even put my finger on one specific thing, but
[00:07:54] we're doing it and man, it's leaving this positive forward
[00:07:57] moving direction to it or something like that.
[00:08:00] Yeah.
[00:08:01] And what I found is, and this may be surprising to some of the
[00:08:04] pastors listening, is what I found is sometimes it doesn't mean
[00:08:08] momentum isn't just a result of like we did some big ministry
[00:08:13] massive initiative or program.
[00:08:16] In fact, it's quite the opposite.
[00:08:18] Oftentimes momentum happens from just being excited about a
[00:08:22] small thing.
[00:08:24] And in some ways, it almost doesn't matter what thing.
[00:08:28] As long as your folks rally around it and get excited about
[00:08:31] it, it could generate incredible momentum in the life of the
[00:08:34] church.
[00:08:35] There was a mantra or a philosophy that Robert Shuler had that
[00:08:39] has always stuck with me.
[00:08:41] Robert Shuler, he was the one that I think it was Garden
[00:08:45] Grove Church.
[00:08:47] It was a reformed church in America that started in a
[00:08:49] drive-in movie theater in 1955.
[00:08:51] Robert Shuler is the one who turned that eventually into the
[00:08:54] first real mega church I ever heard of and that was Crystal
[00:08:57] Cathedral in Garden Grove.
[00:09:00] And he used to have this saying, find a need and meet it.
[00:09:06] Find a hurt and heal it.
[00:09:08] Find a problem and solve it.
[00:09:11] For him, I mean he never phrased it this way, but I
[00:09:16] think it would be safe to say for him generating momentum
[00:09:18] when you're trying to grow a church was all about the
[00:09:21] people.
[00:09:22] It always was, it always is, always will be that you can't
[00:09:26] have momentum without people.
[00:09:27] It's about what's going on with the people that's
[00:09:31] generating momentum.
[00:09:32] I think that's important to say because some people think
[00:09:34] they can program their way into momentum when really
[00:09:37] you have to people your way into momentum.
[00:09:40] It's all about the relationships that you have.
[00:09:42] For us at Tower Hill, we've had some great seasons of
[00:09:46] momentum and I know we're experiencing it because there
[00:09:50] are some kind of telltale signs, sort of like you were
[00:09:54] saying.
[00:09:55] One is ideas are bubbling up organically from the
[00:10:00] people.
[00:10:01] It's not just coming top down.
[00:10:02] It's coming bottom up.
[00:10:03] People have ideas.
[00:10:04] Hey, we want to do this group to do XYZ and some
[00:10:08] ideas are better than others, but it's the excitement
[00:10:10] that you want to capture.
[00:10:11] You really want to try not to say no when those things
[00:10:14] come up because you want folks to be excited.
[00:10:17] Hey, did you ever think about we could have a carnival
[00:10:19] ministry or whatever?
[00:10:22] He's okay.
[00:10:23] Yeah, man.
[00:10:24] Let's pray about that.
[00:10:27] Ideas tend to be bubbling up more.
[00:10:31] There's certainly more engagement in the things
[00:10:34] that you're offering.
[00:10:36] Usually not always, but usually there's more
[00:10:39] participation in worship, more participation in groups
[00:10:42] in Bible studies.
[00:10:44] And there's also more stories that we're hearing
[00:10:47] about people growing in their relationship with Jesus.
[00:10:51] They're just kind of happening organically.
[00:10:55] People are just talking.
[00:10:56] There's an excitement.
[00:10:57] There's a buzz about what's happening in the life
[00:11:01] of your ministry.
[00:11:03] And isn't it funny how the stories happen?
[00:11:06] It's like all of a sudden you start hearing stories
[00:11:07] of life change and transformation, and you know
[00:11:11] that that's not the work.
[00:11:12] That's not us.
[00:11:13] That's God doing his work in the people,
[00:11:15] but there's something about the sort of confluence
[00:11:19] of what we're doing and what God's doing
[00:11:22] and how it's all happening at the same time.
[00:11:24] I don't know.
[00:11:25] It's really hard to define it, I think.
[00:11:27] Yeah, it's hard to grab hold of that.
[00:11:28] You said something with the idea phase
[00:11:30] that I think is an indication.
[00:11:33] I mean, there's some kind of hard quanta-
[00:11:36] they're not quantitative metrics.
[00:11:37] They're more like just a sense or a feeling
[00:11:39] about it, but you start to notice
[00:11:41] like you're saying the idea is coming to the surface
[00:11:43] and you can also create an environment
[00:11:45] where ideas can flourish.
[00:11:47] And I think that's a crucial part of momentum too
[00:11:50] and I think about in our life,
[00:11:53] we have kind of an adopted a not Robert Shuler deal
[00:11:56] but ours is say yes unless there's a good reason to say no.
[00:12:00] And I think a lot of times in church leadership
[00:12:02] we get into the saying no to ideas business
[00:12:05] because it sounds like a lot of work
[00:12:07] or we're not sure we have the resources
[00:12:08] or who's going to lead the charge or whatever
[00:12:11] and we just reverse that.
[00:12:13] We said we're going to say yes unless there's a good reason.
[00:12:15] There are good reasons to say no to a carnival ministry
[00:12:18] that we can't sustain or do probably or whatever.
[00:12:21] But a lot of times we just get in the way
[00:12:23] of something that can be a catalyzer for momentum
[00:12:26] and instead of letting people lose some pursuing ideas
[00:12:29] we kind of play it safe and play it comfortable.
[00:12:32] And I would say safety and comfort
[00:12:33] get in the way of momentum.
[00:12:35] Moving forward ideas, innovation are indicators of momentum
[00:12:39] but also generators of it
[00:12:41] as you try things to see what happens.
[00:12:45] So okay back to the people.
[00:12:47] I think you can strategically work towards momentum.
[00:12:52] You can't exactly manufacture it
[00:12:55] but I think if you do these things well
[00:12:56] momentum is often a byproduct
[00:12:59] and that is understanding what did the people need?
[00:13:03] What can we offer to help fill those needs?
[00:13:08] And then how do we close the gap between the two?
[00:13:12] Like what is it that people need or are looking for?
[00:13:15] What are they hungry for?
[00:13:19] And I know everyone's, well they're hungry for God.
[00:13:20] Yes of course but in what way is that showing up
[00:13:24] in their lives?
[00:13:24] Is it that they need a Christianity 101 class?
[00:13:29] Is it that they need a serving opportunity?
[00:13:34] Do they need something for their whole family,
[00:13:37] something for their children?
[00:13:38] What are their needs?
[00:13:39] And then can we meet those needs through what we're able to offer
[00:13:43] and that takes some honesty?
[00:13:46] And if you can't,
[00:13:49] well are there ways that we can sort of close that gap
[00:13:52] and start need meeting, right?
[00:13:54] Find a need and meet it,
[00:13:55] find a hurt and heal it,
[00:13:56] find a problem and solve it.
[00:13:57] And for us what this looked like was
[00:14:03] some very common things that I call the four-legged stool
[00:14:06] of momentum.
[00:14:07] And I think if you pay attention to these four things,
[00:14:10] you do a good job of need meeting
[00:14:14] in the life of the church
[00:14:15] and you set yourself up I think for some momentum.
[00:14:18] So here are the four legs
[00:14:19] and then we'll go through each one.
[00:14:20] The first is what is your outreach engine?
[00:14:24] Your outreach engine.
[00:14:26] How are people hearing about your church
[00:14:28] and connecting with your church?
[00:14:30] What are some of the conversations
[00:14:32] people are having about the church?
[00:14:34] And what ways is the church getting into the community?
[00:14:37] That's the first one, the outreach leg.
[00:14:40] Hey Reclaim Leader community,
[00:14:42] I want to share a really great opportunity this fall
[00:14:45] on how to develop your church's discipleship strategy.
[00:14:49] We're going to do a six-week Zoom cohort
[00:14:51] where you will learn exactly how to create
[00:14:54] or refine your church's discipleship strategy.
[00:14:58] How someone moves from guest
[00:15:00] or outsider to engaged follower of Jesus
[00:15:03] or engaged member of the church
[00:15:05] and how to leverage Christmas as an important catalyst.
[00:15:10] Listen, most churches just hope
[00:15:12] that spiritual formation happens organically
[00:15:15] but the truth is it's like trying to follow someone
[00:15:18] through the forest at 100 yards away.
[00:15:20] It's too easy to get lost and confused.
[00:15:23] And here's the thing I've definitely learned the hard way
[00:15:25] is that many are slipping out the back door of your church
[00:15:29] and you don't even know it.
[00:15:30] Why? Because they don't know what to do next.
[00:15:32] They feel stuck or they feel stagnant.
[00:15:36] So by the end of six weeks,
[00:15:37] you will have a framework for your discipleship strategy
[00:15:41] and a plan on how exactly you will leverage Christmas.
[00:15:46] This is exactly what I've done at my church
[00:15:48] and I've helped other churches to do.
[00:15:50] And for us, it's led to over 100% attendance growth
[00:15:54] in the last 12 years
[00:15:55] and how we went from about 40 people engaged
[00:15:58] in small groups or Bible studies
[00:16:01] to about 400 every single time we offer them.
[00:16:05] So we're going to get started on September 24th
[00:16:08] and we're going to go for six weeks.
[00:16:10] There's going to be three teaching modules
[00:16:11] and three workshop modules
[00:16:13] where we help you in real time come up with your plan.
[00:16:17] And here's the best part.
[00:16:19] We've made it super affordable for churches.
[00:16:22] So only $75 per person gets you in.
[00:16:26] And all the teaching modules are going to be recorded
[00:16:30] so you can keep them and share them with your team.
[00:16:33] Space is very limited.
[00:16:35] We want to keep it small
[00:16:36] so that we can get the most out of our workshop time.
[00:16:39] So make sure you jump in right now.
[00:16:41] Don't wait.
[00:16:42] Reclaim the leader.com forward slash disciple.
[00:16:45] That's reclaimedleader.com forward slash disciple.
[00:16:49] Do it today.
[00:16:50] I hope to see you there.
[00:16:52] So the next leg is about your Sunday morning worship
[00:16:56] and making sure that you're doing it in such a way
[00:17:00] that you are meeting the needs of those
[00:17:03] who are coming to your worship service.
[00:17:05] Now, I know that some people will hear that
[00:17:08] and they'll get super offended
[00:17:10] and they'll, you know, all the Calvinists.
[00:17:13] Now I'm just kidding.
[00:17:14] All the Reformed theologians, rightfully so,
[00:17:16] say it's not about meeting the needs.
[00:17:20] It's about worshiping the Lord.
[00:17:23] Yes, I don't disagree with that.
[00:17:25] But why is that to be one or the other?
[00:17:28] I think worship, I mean, Jesus tells us in the great commandment
[00:17:33] that both the vertical and the horizontal axis of our faith
[00:17:35] are inseparable.
[00:17:38] And I think it's the same thing in worship.
[00:17:40] How are we honoring and worshiping the Lord
[00:17:44] while at the same time paying attention to the needs
[00:17:47] and the hurts and the pain points
[00:17:49] and the desires of the people?
[00:17:50] I think that's all connected.
[00:17:53] So all of that to say is the way we do worship,
[00:17:57] engaging and connecting
[00:17:58] and meeting the needs of the people.
[00:18:00] I think if you do that well,
[00:18:01] you can engage both people far away from God
[00:18:04] and close to God.
[00:18:05] You can engage guests
[00:18:06] and you can engage leaders.
[00:18:07] You can engage them all.
[00:18:08] And I think that matters.
[00:18:10] I really do.
[00:18:11] I think that is a leg that helps create momentum.
[00:18:14] Okay, then the third leg is what we call
[00:18:17] our next-gen ministry or youth ministry, kids' ministry.
[00:18:22] And even if you just focused on offering something
[00:18:25] that was really good on Sunday mornings, that's enough.
[00:18:29] But that's when kids are excited to jump in.
[00:18:32] They're not dragging their feet to not want to go in.
[00:18:36] And then fourth is some sort of small group culture,
[00:18:40] Bible study, small group, whatever it looks like in your church.
[00:18:43] It's where relationships are cultivated
[00:18:45] and where if you do it right,
[00:18:47] people are doing pastoral care for one another.
[00:18:50] People are cared for.
[00:18:51] So those are the four legs.
[00:18:52] Let's jump in a little bit more into each one.
[00:18:55] The first one, what is your outreach engine?
[00:18:59] So this can look like a lot of things.
[00:19:01] It can look like a social media strategy,
[00:19:05] certainly to get the word out about the life of the church.
[00:19:08] And in your social media strategy,
[00:19:10] make sure that you are following the 80-20 rule.
[00:19:13] That's something we work hard at.
[00:19:15] And that is talk about others 80% of the time.
[00:19:19] Talk about yourself 20% of the time.
[00:19:21] In other words, if all your social media posts
[00:19:23] are come to our potluck, come to worship,
[00:19:26] come to this, come to that, people will start tuning you out.
[00:19:28] And it feels like you kind of don't care about anything,
[00:19:31] but just the calendar of your events.
[00:19:34] Really, the most effective strategy is if you spend,
[00:19:38] even if you spent 50% of your time, be honest,
[00:19:41] saying, hey, we are so excited.
[00:19:44] Kids are back to school.
[00:19:45] Have a great back to school, everybody.
[00:19:46] We know school started today.
[00:19:48] May God bless you as you start your new grade.
[00:19:53] Teachers hang in there.
[00:19:54] You're going to be tired by third period.
[00:19:56] It's okay.
[00:19:57] Some sort of encouraging thing for people outside your church,
[00:20:00] just for your community.
[00:20:02] Hey, we're so excited.
[00:20:03] The farmers market is going to be happening this Saturday, right?
[00:20:06] It's showing that you care about what everybody else cares about.
[00:20:11] And that's a way of helping people to see as,
[00:20:15] oh man, this church really, that's really cool that they did that.
[00:20:18] That's really, that they care about that.
[00:20:20] So part of it is social media strategy, certainly.
[00:20:23] How do you guys think about social media strategies?
[00:20:25] Is it similar?
[00:20:26] Yeah, I think so.
[00:20:27] I think probably if we're really honest and looked at our posts,
[00:20:30] it'd be more of a third, a third, and a third.
[00:20:32] I would say something like that where a third is trying to be outward oriented
[00:20:36] or other minded, like let's pray for our school staff
[00:20:39] and students as they're heading back to school.
[00:20:41] We'll have a post like that right now.
[00:20:44] Probably a third is advertising, you know,
[00:20:47] probably a little more than we would like,
[00:20:49] but it's, hey, come to this event.
[00:20:50] Don't forget about this.
[00:20:52] Remember, we're going to, you know,
[00:20:54] our fall kickoff Sunday, et cetera.
[00:20:55] And then a third is other content like this scripture
[00:21:00] or a memory verse or a word of encouragement or something like that.
[00:21:04] That is, it's different kind of content.
[00:21:07] It's not advertising and it's not necessarily celebrating
[00:21:09] something in our community.
[00:21:11] It just being present in that space.
[00:21:14] So I would say we're probably a third, a third, a third.
[00:21:16] Our staff probably could tell us more about how that actually looks.
[00:21:20] But that's our thinking is we want to be engaged with our community.
[00:21:24] It's not always realistic to know which team is going
[00:21:26] to the state playoffs and celebrating them and tracking news.
[00:21:29] So it's hard, but we do our best to have some of that content on there.
[00:21:33] So maybe you start 2080 just to get your foot in the door
[00:21:36] and moving in that direction.
[00:21:38] Yeah, that's good.
[00:21:39] So social media is one way to develop your sort of outreach engine.
[00:21:43] The other thing is, are you having opportunities
[00:21:47] for outsiders to come in?
[00:21:50] Yeah.
[00:21:50] Well, there's really two different ways to do outreach, right?
[00:21:52] So it's insiders going out and inviting outsiders in.
[00:21:56] So in that first category, we just had our annual fireman's fair
[00:22:00] where we volunteer in all the booths.
[00:22:02] And this year I was doing the see how fast you could pitch one.
[00:22:07] Guaranteed winner every time.
[00:22:09] Nice.
[00:22:10] Five bucks.
[00:22:10] You throw the ball three times.
[00:22:12] It's like, and see how things is like this radar gun or whatever.
[00:22:15] And it's kind of fun and kids love doing it and showing off
[00:22:18] and all that.
[00:22:18] But we go out, we wear our Tower Hill shirts.
[00:22:22] And they're a little different every year.
[00:22:24] This year said I love my church on one side and I had Tower Hill on the back.
[00:22:29] And they announce us on the loudspeakers.
[00:22:32] Thank you to all the volunteers from Tower Hill church.
[00:22:34] And it creates a lot of conversations with people in the community.
[00:22:38] That's part of our strategy.
[00:22:39] So that's one event that we do.
[00:22:41] Another event is our Christmas event that we talk about every year
[00:22:45] or Christmas on the Hill where we, it's intentionally designed for non-church people.
[00:22:51] We try to get them in and to talk about them and invite them to our family Christmas Eve service.
[00:22:57] And then we try to do things when we challenge and encourage our congregation to do some inviting.
[00:23:03] That's our outreach engine.
[00:23:06] How about you?
[00:23:06] Do you have other specific things that you do to sort of drive that engine?
[00:23:09] I think thinking in terms of on ramps into the community.
[00:23:13] I mean, so the social media presence out there and then, you know, similar to you all,
[00:23:18] we have some service things that we do in a more public facing kind of way.
[00:23:21] Not in a self-serving way, but in a, hey, we care about our community.
[00:23:25] And I think people do notice that.
[00:23:27] We always often were asking the question if Marine View was just gone one day,
[00:23:32] would our neighbors notice?
[00:23:34] And I think the answer that we keep coming to, and I'm glad about is yes,
[00:23:38] there would be some big things missing.
[00:23:40] And that's a good thing.
[00:23:42] So, but a couple of things that we do to kind of flip it around to begin to move people toward the church
[00:23:48] without inviting them necessarily to a worship service.
[00:23:51] We have our jazz concerts that we do monthly jazz concert at the church,
[00:23:55] secular music, secular artists that are invited in the best that we can find in our region
[00:24:01] and sometimes from New York or other places.
[00:24:03] And we just make it a free concerts donation basis.
[00:24:05] Anybody can come.
[00:24:06] We have a good time.
[00:24:07] But it's just a way to say we're here for our community and you all love music.
[00:24:11] And so do we.
[00:24:12] So let's enjoy this together.
[00:24:14] We stole from you guys a couple of years ago and started our campfire in Carol's night
[00:24:18] where we kind of like the nativity and kind of do a bunch of stuff,
[00:24:22] Christmassy that's oriented towards our community.
[00:24:25] And so those kinds of things that our church as a family can feel really good about giving to the community
[00:24:30] but also benefit from and enjoy too.
[00:24:33] And so I think that's kind of to your point of outreach that includes the church
[00:24:38] and exposes people to the relationships.
[00:24:41] And they go, I wonder what those people are like, why are they out here?
[00:24:43] What are they doing?
[00:24:44] So that relational part that's so crucial is facilitated by those sorts of things.
[00:24:49] Yeah.
[00:24:50] And then the next logical step or leg of the stool is,
[00:24:57] okay, then what are you inviting them to?
[00:24:59] Yep.
[00:24:59] And your Sunday morning experience is the number one thing.
[00:25:01] If people are going to show up to your church, chances are it's going to be on a Sunday morning.
[00:25:05] That's the big open door either online or in person.
[00:25:10] Before they get to the door, they're going to come to the website.
[00:25:13] So just know that and I just, we say this so often, Jason,
[00:25:17] but please just take a little bit of time to have fresh eyes on your website and go.
[00:25:22] If somebody pulled this up with they, we don't need to be perfect.
[00:25:25] We're not, you know, some crazy big organization,
[00:25:28] but is it credible enough for people to go, you know what?
[00:25:31] We should go there or we can try that out.
[00:25:34] Or, you know, as your online whatever version of worship you're offering there,
[00:25:38] is it credible to the point where they would say, you know what?
[00:25:40] We should go check out Jason in person or something like that.
[00:25:43] So anyway, my two cents on the website.
[00:25:45] So you know, I'm glad you mentioned it because so two or three years ago now
[00:25:49] we did a big redo of the website because we noticed it just needed some help.
[00:25:55] It wasn't, didn't do what we wanted it to do.
[00:25:58] And already it's out of date.
[00:26:01] So we're doing a big redo again and we got a photographer coming on Sundays
[00:26:05] going to take a bunch of pictures of folks because we want more pictures on the website
[00:26:09] and all that.
[00:26:11] So you always have to keep an eye on that because that is,
[00:26:13] that's actually the glue between your outreach engine
[00:26:16] and your Sunday morning experience.
[00:26:18] True, very true.
[00:26:19] And you said something you were talking about in terms of relationship
[00:26:21] and so capturing what we would call assets or photos of your community
[00:26:26] in action are going to give people something of a preview
[00:26:29] of the kinds of people and the kind of community that they're considering
[00:26:32] coming to be a part of.
[00:26:34] So really important and it's so hard to keep up Jason, but it's worth it.
[00:26:38] And every time we go through that process as hard as it can be,
[00:26:42] if you don't keep up with it, it is, we see a carry on effect
[00:26:46] and it has an immediate impact.
[00:26:48] So yeah.
[00:26:49] So coming to worship now again, we'll link to some recent episodes we did.
[00:26:55] I think that first impressions episodes are real good one to come back to
[00:26:58] from Greg Atkinson about when people are coming in,
[00:27:01] you're really just thinking about how we meeting their needs.
[00:27:04] Yep.
[00:27:04] How we anticipating their needs, how we doing a good job of connecting them
[00:27:08] and make them feel at home so that in that first seven minutes
[00:27:12] of critical time they feel like, boy, this place, they're expecting me.
[00:27:17] They're not suffocating me.
[00:27:20] And their worship experience is something that draws me in.
[00:27:24] And again, we just talked about this last week about creating moments
[00:27:27] that lead to movement.
[00:27:29] How are we creating moments that help people take a step towards Jesus?
[00:27:33] All the things you just want to make sure is good.
[00:27:35] And just give me an example.
[00:27:38] There was a time early on when sometimes we would have folks in the
[00:27:44] worship band or singers who probably shouldn't have been
[00:27:49] in the worship band that we didn't want to say no to.
[00:27:53] And what happens is people get distracted or actually, you know
[00:28:00] what I heard more than once was I felt so nervous for them the whole time.
[00:28:06] It becomes a place of focus that ought not be a place of focus.
[00:28:09] Right.
[00:28:09] Which means it's like, because we're always, we have this tension.
[00:28:12] We include as many people as we possibly can, but not everybody's
[00:28:16] going to be able to do it because the quality matters.
[00:28:22] And I don't care if it's traditional, contemporary jazz, whatever
[00:28:27] your worship service is, the quality of the music drives so much of it.
[00:28:32] So you just want to make sure that it's as good as it can be
[00:28:36] while including as many as you can.
[00:28:38] But there's a line there.
[00:28:39] And sometimes it's like, it's not your gift to be up front
[00:28:41] leading worship.
[00:28:42] It's okay.
[00:28:42] I think it's okay.
[00:28:43] We did some recruiting for our worship team this last Sunday
[00:28:46] and our worship leader, he was up there and he was recruiting.
[00:28:49] And he's trying to kind of say, hey, we'd love to have a conversation
[00:28:51] with you and then, you know, we'll have something of an audition
[00:28:54] process.
[00:28:54] And I said, what Larry's trying to say to you is that we would
[00:28:58] love for you to be a part of the team, but this isn't for
[00:29:00] everybody either.
[00:29:01] And, you know, we want to include lots of you and if you
[00:29:04] have some gifts for this, but there's also a standard that
[00:29:06] we're going to employ here.
[00:29:08] So just know that going in.
[00:29:09] And so I think saying that out loud, it kind of filters through
[00:29:12] you're going to get some American Idol types that have low
[00:29:14] self-awareness about how their voice actually sounds or
[00:29:17] something.
[00:29:18] But you know, you got to be willing to have those conversations
[00:29:20] and by having something of a vetting process that you go
[00:29:24] through, you can have some of that ahead of time and not
[00:29:27] have to, you know, fire them after they start or something
[00:29:30] which is, I would say the other piece related to that
[00:29:33] maybe you're going to touch on this is if you're using
[00:29:35] technology in your services, screens, videos, other kinds
[00:29:39] of things, there really should be a seamless part and
[00:29:43] not stand out in a bad way or capture too much attention
[00:29:47] and you want it to be just blend into the service itself
[00:29:51] as if it's just part of the water that you're swimming in.
[00:29:56] And so just be attentive to how is your technology functioning
[00:30:00] and if your music or your volume is too loud or too quiet,
[00:30:03] that's an issue.
[00:30:04] If you have a bunch of misspellings in your slides,
[00:30:07] if you're typing your sermon scripture in or your slide
[00:30:10] content and you're keeping making errors, one or two
[00:30:13] people can kind of ignore, but if it's every week, week
[00:30:15] after week, there's words missing and different.
[00:30:18] It just starts to become a point of focus.
[00:30:20] So anyway, we kind of overbaked that but just thinking
[00:30:22] in terms of what is the level of quality that we're capable
[00:30:25] of?
[00:30:26] We're not a Taylor Swift concert.
[00:30:28] That's not where we're trying to be.
[00:30:29] But how do we communicate credibility with the resources
[00:30:32] and the folks that we do have?
[00:30:34] Yeah, and I always get defensive when I talk about
[00:30:37] excellence and worship.
[00:30:38] I get defensive because I feel the criticism when I talk
[00:30:43] about it as if to say that striving for excellence
[00:30:48] in worship is somehow unspiritual or un-pure as you're
[00:30:54] thinking about worshiping God.
[00:30:56] And that just hasn't been the case in my experience.
[00:31:00] In my experience, it's only dialed in the effectiveness
[00:31:05] of that hour that I'm really able to let go.
[00:31:10] I'm really able to think and ponder and pray.
[00:31:14] And when things are done in such a way that I'm led
[00:31:17] and not distracted, it actually has the opposite effect
[00:31:21] that the planning and having it really dialed in helps me
[00:31:25] let go more if that makes sense.
[00:31:28] Yeah.
[00:31:28] And I feel like my work of experience is power.
[00:31:30] Yeah, we're leaning in.
[00:31:32] We're experiencing God's presence.
[00:31:33] It's not about creating a show.
[00:31:35] It's about creating an environment where God can meet
[00:31:38] people and the Holy Spirit can be at work
[00:31:40] in their hearts and lives.
[00:31:41] And we don't do too many things to get in His way
[00:31:43] or something like that.
[00:31:44] So planning ahead and being prepared and pursuing
[00:31:48] excellence and all things I think is just good stewardship.
[00:31:52] So why wouldn't you want it?
[00:31:53] Yeah.
[00:31:54] OK, then the third leg of this stool
[00:31:56] is making sure that understanding when people
[00:31:58] come to church, they're coming into a minivan.
[00:32:00] There's multiple generations.
[00:32:02] You want to make sure that there is something engaging
[00:32:06] for the kids on a Sunday morning.
[00:32:08] Now, there are a lot of different philosophies on this
[00:32:10] and there are some churches like we always do Sunday school
[00:32:13] separate from worship because we think that's important
[00:32:16] that kids are in worship and in Sunday school.
[00:32:19] And that's fine.
[00:32:20] You know, you do whatever you think works for your church
[00:32:22] in our experience.
[00:32:24] Our experience has been that our people,
[00:32:26] I don't know if it's just the Northeast,
[00:32:28] they won't give us two hours.
[00:32:29] They give us one and we do Sunday school at the same time.
[00:32:35] But here's what I noticed.
[00:32:36] So early on when we had kind of we were just launching
[00:32:40] contemporary worship and our Sunday school at the time
[00:32:44] was very old school.
[00:32:46] I think, you know, the curriculum was pretty good
[00:32:48] and it was it was kind of as good as it could be
[00:32:52] at the time.
[00:32:53] But I remember hearing a story of a kid kicking
[00:32:58] and screaming basically because they didn't want to go
[00:33:01] to Sunday school and it wasn't just like separation
[00:33:05] and anxiety.
[00:33:06] It was like they hated it.
[00:33:09] And the reason was is because they were bored
[00:33:12] and you know, I had a talk with my son.
[00:33:14] I told him it was going to be OK.
[00:33:15] I'm just kidding.
[00:33:17] But yes, but I did hear, you know, that it wasn't
[00:33:23] it wasn't something that kids are really looking forward to
[00:33:26] and there's a little bit of dragging of the feet
[00:33:28] in order to get there.
[00:33:30] And we knew from youth ministry days
[00:33:33] that oftentimes at least in our generations now
[00:33:35] that if the kids are excited, it brings the parents.
[00:33:38] It's actually the opposite.
[00:33:40] And we knew that we needed something that was going
[00:33:42] to be more engaging but honestly more effective.
[00:33:46] You know how long have we all heard the story
[00:33:50] that well kids grew up in youth ministry
[00:33:52] they grew up in Sunday school and then they go
[00:33:53] off to college and their faith is deconstructed
[00:33:56] or they they go away from the church
[00:33:58] and they never come back and all the data
[00:33:59] from Barn and stuff suggests that's exactly what happens.
[00:34:03] But I think the reason it happens is because we
[00:34:05] for them we've boiled down faith through a series
[00:34:08] of kind of faith axioms combined with memory verses
[00:34:18] and said, you know, good luck when what we haven't
[00:34:22] done is help them cultivate a real relationship
[00:34:24] with Jesus.
[00:34:26] You can knock down a bunch of axioms or
[00:34:28] you know, you can knock down a propositional faith
[00:34:33] but it's really hard to knock down a strong relationship.
[00:34:36] And so we decided that while we cared about content
[00:34:40] we thought the relationship was more important
[00:34:42] so we wanted to do it as much as we could
[00:34:45] to change that with our Sunday school.
[00:34:46] That's when we switched to the orange curriculum.
[00:34:50] You know in orange what they and there's other
[00:34:52] curriculums that do this too but they focus
[00:34:54] on small group conversations around a topic
[00:34:58] or a scripture story rather than a lecture-based model
[00:35:04] and it really changes things.
[00:35:06] I mean the kids over time have grown so strong
[00:35:11] in their faith to the point where we have teenagers
[00:35:13] we just had this last year, we had a teenager this summer
[00:35:17] think she's a rising senior.
[00:35:19] She said, you know there's no Bible study
[00:35:20] for seniors in the summer.
[00:35:23] Like there's some Bible study for anybody dude
[00:35:25] everyone's at the beach.
[00:35:27] And she goes, well I want to lead one.
[00:35:29] We're like yes.
[00:35:31] And it's that wasn't going to happen 10 years ago.
[00:35:35] It's just a different thing and there's a lot of factors
[00:35:38] that go into that for sure.
[00:35:40] But ask yourself this are the kids in your ministry
[00:35:43] are they there just because they're in the holding tank
[00:35:46] while mom and dad are doing something else
[00:35:48] or are they really truly engaging and learning
[00:35:51] and having fun and excited to come back?
[00:35:54] So next Jan is the third leg of the story.
[00:35:57] So important and you don't have to have all the bells
[00:36:00] and whistles of some crazy Disney environment
[00:36:02] to do that well.
[00:36:04] You know you're hitting on that relational piece.
[00:36:06] How do we get kids from into circles
[00:36:09] with a trusted adult that can share the love
[00:36:11] of Jesus with them and model that
[00:36:13] and walk with them through the ups and downs
[00:36:15] of being a kid and have those kids know
[00:36:18] that we're not going anywhere.
[00:36:19] We're here for the long haul
[00:36:20] and we want to impart that life
[00:36:23] with Jesus that lasts a lifetime.
[00:36:25] And so that kind of thinking I think is crucial
[00:36:27] whether you just have a handful of kids
[00:36:29] or a whole bunch.
[00:36:31] You know we need to think in terms of turning
[00:36:34] everything upside down in order to love
[00:36:36] and serve our kids the next generations.
[00:36:38] And I think that's reflected often in our budget
[00:36:41] in our number of volunteers
[00:36:42] how much of their church's resource goes
[00:36:44] to serve the next gen
[00:36:46] and to pass the baton of faith
[00:36:48] to the next generation.
[00:36:50] And if you're looking at that and going
[00:36:52] well we need to do better, well then do better.
[00:36:54] Like I think it's just one of those things
[00:36:56] where it's a must and you will notice
[00:36:58] the carry on effect is it's the rising tide
[00:37:01] lifts all boats it will have a catalytic effect
[00:37:04] on the overall momentum of the community
[00:37:06] when you see young families, young kids
[00:37:09] connecting and telling the story of their faith
[00:37:11] like your high school senior how cool is that?
[00:37:14] Yeah and then the fourth leg of the stool
[00:37:16] is small groups which we talked a lot about.
[00:37:19] In fact I'm going to do like a massive
[00:37:21] link tree at the bottom of these show notes.
[00:37:23] So if you go to reclineleader.com forward slash show notes
[00:37:26] that's where you find them by episode
[00:37:28] and I'll just put a bunch of links we've talked about
[00:37:30] all four of the legs of this stool a lot
[00:37:33] and so I'm just going to kind of pin
[00:37:35] a bunch of episodes if you want to dive in
[00:37:38] and say like hey we want let's think more about small groups
[00:37:40] let's think more about next gen
[00:37:42] so that folks you can find it easily
[00:37:44] but small groups that's where the relationships
[00:37:47] are really happening.
[00:37:49] It's kind of like
[00:37:52] it's kind of like in church this used to happen
[00:37:54] more organically than it does now
[00:37:56] people would just get to know each other
[00:37:57] and they'd go out for breakfast and now
[00:37:59] just like with their kids you got to do play dates.
[00:38:02] So you got to do play dates with adults
[00:38:04] and that's what small groups essentially is
[00:38:07] it's a play date as you are getting to know
[00:38:11] other people, families, couples
[00:38:14] whatever that looks like in the life of the church
[00:38:18] and that's where relationships are cultivated
[00:38:20] and that's where pastoral care happens
[00:38:23] so again if you if your church is built
[00:38:26] on the model of the pastor does all the pastoral care
[00:38:28] that's a really tough model not only to sustain
[00:38:31] but to really be effective unless you have a church of 12
[00:38:35] that it gets it gets to be too much
[00:38:38] for one person to handle.
[00:38:39] The best is when the people are doing the care
[00:38:42] now I you know I believe in them
[00:38:45] but the people should be doing the care of the people
[00:38:48] but that happens naturally somebody you know
[00:38:50] you're in a small group and someone's mother
[00:38:53] is going into the hospital what do they do?
[00:38:56] They all pray for them they reach out
[00:38:58] they do a potluck meal train
[00:39:01] they do all the different things
[00:39:03] they care for one another again
[00:39:05] developing even if you start with one small group
[00:39:08] it's better than none
[00:39:10] and it's a way that you can start building that
[00:39:11] but this fourth leg of the stool is such an important one
[00:39:15] because this is where people are really becoming
[00:39:18] a congregation more than just a crowd that gathers on Sundays
[00:39:21] Yeah and I think it actually groups like that
[00:39:24] small groups when you get people into that kind of
[00:39:27] closer in community it actually has some healthy
[00:39:29] preventative things as well so
[00:39:31] say they're having a crisis of faith
[00:39:34] and you preach a sermon that they don't like
[00:39:37] and if they weren't connected into a group
[00:39:40] they might just be out the door and gone
[00:39:42] but that group is going to say hey
[00:39:45] notice you were in a church last Sunday is everything okay?
[00:39:47] Things that we can't notice
[00:39:49] we can't notice everything about someone's
[00:39:52] personal spiritual life or well-being
[00:39:54] and that caring means when those kinds of things
[00:39:58] come along when something else gets knocked sideways
[00:40:00] in their life there's a group to hold them
[00:40:02] in the community that can be there with them
[00:40:04] so for us we've noticed that a number of times
[00:40:07] when maybe somebody doesn't agree with the decision
[00:40:09] that we make as a church but they're so connected
[00:40:12] into their group and to the community
[00:40:13] that they're going to stick it out
[00:40:15] and they'll warm up to it over time
[00:40:17] they always do so you know it's just one of those things
[00:40:20] that it's just really crucial to have groups
[00:40:23] and I think we talked about
[00:40:24] I can't remember when the last time we dove into this
[00:40:27] but we kind of have some layers of groups
[00:40:28] we have our more small group 8 to 14
[00:40:31] size kinds of things and then some community groups
[00:40:33] that are more in the 25 to 35 range
[00:40:37] where it's a little bit larger gathering
[00:40:39] and there's some things that we like about that environment too
[00:40:42] where you can be new and be anonymous
[00:40:43] and get lean in as much as you want
[00:40:45] so there's different ways to do groups
[00:40:47] but the point you're making and I think
[00:40:49] connected to momentum is it has that
[00:40:52] cementing effect where that group
[00:40:53] is caring for each other but they're now
[00:40:55] this is my family this is where I belong
[00:40:58] this is where I fit
[00:40:59] and you'll notice that has that
[00:41:01] pushing on the fly will keeping things going
[00:41:04] yeah so when Kobe
[00:41:06] alley you to shack that wasn't just
[00:41:09] something that happened spontaneously
[00:41:11] necessarily it came from
[00:41:13] weeks days months
[00:41:15] years of playing together
[00:41:17] and planning and developing
[00:41:20] so that they just could look each other
[00:41:22] a certain way and they knew that the play
[00:41:23] was coming so momentum takes
[00:41:25] some strategic thinking
[00:41:27] some planning and again
[00:41:29] it's a flywheel that takes a while to get going
[00:41:32] but once it does it's hard to stop
[00:41:33] it's about enthusiasm
[00:41:35] it's about meeting needs
[00:41:38] healing hurts
[00:41:39] solving problems in people's lives
[00:41:43] and this is what we're going to get to next week
[00:41:45] is momentum is a product of
[00:41:47] excitement excited people
[00:41:49] invite others
[00:41:50] and that creates more
[00:41:52] momentum so
[00:41:53] I hope everyone has a great week
[00:41:56] I hope that you as you're thinking
[00:41:58] about momentum in your church
[00:42:00] again a great place to start is the four-legged
[00:42:02] stool of outreach
[00:42:04] Sunday morning worship
[00:42:06] next gen and small groups
[00:42:08] alright anything else before we sign off here
[00:42:10] we've got a little long today but I think we had a lot
[00:42:11] we have a lot to say Jason is when it comes down
[00:42:14] to you really appreciate this conversation
[00:42:16] about momentum and that's what we're rooting
[00:42:18] for momentum for the sake
[00:42:20] of God's kingdom his purpose in people's lives
[00:42:22] not momentum for momentum's sake or any
[00:42:24] of that kind of stuff but to see real
[00:42:26] things happen in real people's lives and that's our
[00:42:28] desire and longing so hopefully this
[00:42:30] helps you and Jason appreciate you putting
[00:42:32] these thoughts together for our conversation on momentum
[00:42:35] you got it and I do it
[00:42:36] because ministry is hard
[00:42:38] it is so much better when we do it together
[00:42:41] take care everyone