RL 360: Stories from the Trenches (Pastors Austin & Sara Hill)

[00:00:00] Any time you're in a place for a long amount of time, you're going to have people who leave because of decisions you make and you're going to have people who come because of decisions you make. I found as a senior pastor there were so many things that I had to do in that position that either I felt like I had never kind of signed up for or certainly I didn't enjoy and that really just killed the joy and passion of ministry.

[00:00:27] Welcome to episode 360.

[00:00:30] Today we continue pastor appreciation month, the bus kept secret, by focusing the next few episodes on interviewing pastors like you, pastors in the trenches, what they're doing, what they're learning and how God is showing up.

[00:00:43] Today we have a great conversation that you're going to love with pastors Austin and Sara Hill. That's coming up right now on The Reclaimed Leader.

[00:00:53] Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker.

[00:00:57] And I'm Jesse Skiffington.

[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact.

[00:01:04] We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that worked for us, and some that didn't.

[00:01:09] Best practices and practical tools for church leadership.

[00:01:12] The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.

[00:01:19] Well, Jesse, we are back. Back in our next installment of Pastor Appreciation Month. Just know I appreciate you. I appreciate you.

[00:01:28] Well, I appreciate you too, Jason. I feel like we got to say that at least five or six more times this month.

[00:01:31] That's right. I mean, listen, what is, I'm just curious, this is totally, we did not rehearse this.

[00:01:36] What is the most meaningful pastor's appreciation gift that you've received?

[00:01:43] I just thought one popped in my head, so I'll go first and-

[00:01:46] Well, I do, and I could reach into my desk. I'd make a lot of noise, so I'm not going to do it. But I have a sword of the spirit, sort of, what is it? I'm going to find it right now. I got to show it. Oh, here it is.

[00:01:57] Wait, what?

[00:01:59] The sword of salvation here is the letter opener that I got from our deacons a couple years ago.

[00:02:05] This is the reason you need to watch us on YouTube.

[00:02:10] Yeah.

[00:02:11] Just for this moment.

[00:02:12] Word of the spirit, which is the word of God, Ephesians 617. And I've got this. And now, whenever my son comes into the office, he immediately starts sword fighting.

[00:02:21] So I've got that going for me. That's my favorite pastor appreciation gift, I think.

[00:02:25] What about you, Jason? Any good press this moment?

[00:02:28] I am so glad. I'm so glad that I asked.

[00:02:31] Yeah.

[00:02:32] Mine was, it was actually a really heartfelt one. I had, this was at my first church I was at where I shared the story about how I was pre-med. I wanted to be a heart surgeon. And then through my coming to Jesus and called to ministry, you know, I went that other direction and someone gave me a stethoscope and told me I'm still a heart surgeon.

[00:02:53] And it was really cool and meaningful. So I still have it. It's in my office. And then this was, this was the most recent one that actually has on my pens in it.

[00:03:03] Pastor powered by coffee and the Holy Spirit cup with pens and pencils in it. That's totally accurate.

[00:03:09] Yeah. That's, those are really good. I, um, we want to, yeah, have a little practicality to it. I actually end up, I actually open letters with this, Jason, cause it's so funny.

[00:03:20] So what did the spirit letter of the spirit, which is the wow. I, yeah, I, there's a lot to say anyway.

[00:03:26] Yeah. Uh, we, we have a, another interview with some pastor friends of ours, as we're talking about stories from the trenches, Austin and Sarah Hill. They're awesome. It's been way too long since I got to talk with them both together. So, um, excited for that. Before we continue, hoping our listeners that you're enjoying this, you're getting a lot out of this and you feel appreciated. Will you do us a favor? Will you share this episode? If, if it's really meaningful to you, share it with some pastor colleagues. It's a great way to get the word out.

[00:03:55] Uh, and if you're up to it, leave us a review on your platform of choice. Uh, we're new on YouTube. So, uh, hope you'll join us there. And, you know, I don't know, we're not much to look at, but it's my makeup. Okay. How's my lighting? I'm a little, I'm a little glist. I'm glistening a bit. You know, I might have to hit the powder, but anyway, um, we're so thankful that you're along the ride with us and listening to us. And again, hope it's helpful to you. And then we have a giveaway member. We promised we're going to give away some

[00:04:25] stuff. So, uh, raffle number one, you're going to win a copy of Dan Ryland's amplified leadership, which is a classic. We did a whole series on that. Uh, and the winner is I literally, I pulled, I took the names or took the list and I just cut them up of our subscribers, popped them in a bowl. And here's the name that came out.

[00:04:52] John Haringa from first press Harrisonburg. I know this guy, John Haringa. So we had coffee in, uh, Harrisonburg is the town where my daughter goes to college and, uh, they got a great rock and church there. Um, let's go. Yeah. JMU. They're doing a lot of great ministry there. Uh, have a friend, Scott there, who's an associate there. So, all right, John, I'm glad to send you a book. Very excited about that. So, yeah. Uh, congratulations. We're going to do some more giveaways the rest of the month.

[00:05:19] Um, including one month of free coaching calls, which, um, again, no strings attached, just trying to help out. You could win that for free. So again, here's how you win. You sign up by getting onto our mailing list, reclaim leader.com slash newsletter. And we don't spam you. We send you about one email a week about the upcoming episode and some other stuff. And that's how you could get on the list to possibly win. We got a few more books, Carl Bader's Todd Bolsinger.

[00:05:48] And again, the month of coaching. So we are getting ready to talk with, uh, Austin and Sarah, they're friends of ours long time in Princeton. It wasn't it great. It was just so good getting.

[00:06:00] Yeah, it was fun catching up. I, I, I think that's one of the great things about ministry over time. You build those kinds of relationships and friendships and get to see how God is at work in everybody's hearts and the call and how it is shaped and how it moves and changes over time as we're all discerning.

[00:06:15] And continuing to discern, you know, what's the Lord leading us to now in this season.

[00:06:20] Yeah. And I like, I appreciate how vulnerable they were and also, um, how they took us on the journey with them. So hope you enjoy. Here's our interview with Sarah and Austin Hill.

[00:06:33] We are so excited to be here with Austin and Sarah Hill, friends of ours from Princeton seminary, man. It was only like a lifetime ago. I swear. Like just a few things, just a few things have happened. And Austin and Sarah are not strangers to the podcast. They both have been guests. I think they've been guests equal amounts of times that, you know, we were looking into that. I think it's you each were on twice. I think.

[00:06:57] All right. Um, and man, I remember, I remember before you guys were Austin and Sarah, I remember meeting, I met Sarah first at the president's house. It was like the first thing we did as incoming first years. And I don't know, it wasn't Rivendell, but it sounded like Rivendell from Lord of the Rings. I had a, had a name like that. Do you remember? I don't remember what the name was that anyway, it's a house with a name. So, you know, it's important.

[00:07:26] Yeah. And I remember, uh, my wife, Karen and I met Sarah there and we all became friends over time. And it was cool watching Austin and Sarah got together and they ended up getting married and raising a beautiful family and both of them going into ministry. So welcome back to the podcast, Austin and Sarah.

[00:07:45] Thank you.

[00:07:45] Thanks.

[00:07:46] Yeah. It's great to be back.

[00:07:48] Yeah. And the last time, Sarah, it's been a while that I've seen you in actual person and Austin, I just saw, was that last year?

[00:07:54] It was, uh, I think it was this fall of 21, maybe 22. Um, but it was like September. So yeah, this is like two years ago.

[00:08:06] It's like, oh yeah, I know.

[00:08:08] Wasn't that just a couple of months ago?

[00:08:09] Crazy. Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:12] Um, but anyway, we are sharing now in October pastor appreciation month, really showing some appreciation for our pastors by sharing our stories,

[00:08:22] sharing where God has taken us and where God's leading us and where we're finding God along the way, the good, the bad and the ugly and everything in between.

[00:08:32] And so I just thought it'd be great.

[00:08:34] And you can pick up wherever you want, but tell us a bit.

[00:08:38] You graduate seminary, you decide you are going to be a clergy couple. Is that what happened? Tell me what happened.

[00:08:46] Yeah, it was an adventure. Even that, I mean, we got married the week after taking the four out of our five ordination exams.

[00:08:55] And so we had like one week to get married.

[00:08:58] Throw a little wedding planning in on top of the ordination exam.

[00:09:01] Exactly.

[00:09:02] Awesome.

[00:09:03] Yeah.

[00:09:04] So while we were finishing up our exegesis exam, you know, that we had, uh, the last bit of our wedding planning,

[00:09:11] then we got married and had our honeymoon and went right into our last year.

[00:09:14] So our first year of marriage really was navigating those questions of call.

[00:09:19] You know, where are we going to end up? How is this going to work?

[00:09:21] Are we going to want to work in the church together or are we just going to be happy to work wherever there is an offer?

[00:09:28] And so I remember that whole spring, there was a fair amount of anxiety, I think, at least that I had.

[00:09:35] But I would imagine for the two of us is we were trying to figure that out.

[00:09:39] And Sarah is a lot more of a planner than I am.

[00:09:42] And if we're being truly honest, she passed all five of her ordination exams.

[00:09:47] I failed polity the first time.

[00:09:49] So I had to retake it, I think, in January of our senior year.

[00:09:53] So while I was waiting for that final result to come back before I could be certified or ready and able to receive a call,

[00:10:00] Sarah was out there already getting our applications ready and talking with churches.

[00:10:05] And even that was, I think, a difficult time to navigate.

[00:10:09] But Sarah actually was the one who ultimately found the church in Fort Dodge.

[00:10:14] And they had two different positions that we're looking for.

[00:10:17] And so, Sarah, I don't know if you kind of want to pick up from there and what your experience with that part of it was.

[00:10:22] Sure. So we figured we could leave seminary and live in a cool city slash close to our families and work at Target.

[00:10:33] Or we could leave seminary and work and serve in a place that we hadn't heard of and that we didn't have any friends or family a part of.

[00:10:40] However, then we would be ordained and working and serving God in a church.

[00:10:44] And because where our families were from, there weren't really any calls that were going to work well for us, I think, at the time.

[00:10:55] So that's how we ended up in Fort Dodge, Iowa, Presbytery of North Central Iowa, for Austin to take a call as an associate for youth.

[00:11:06] And so we looked up Fort Dodge, Iowa on the map and we thought, I guess we're going here.

[00:11:12] Okay. And we thought this will be for a few years.

[00:11:17] And gentle listener, it was 14 years.

[00:11:21] It wasn't just a few years.

[00:11:22] We were there for a long time.

[00:11:25] So that church was looking for two associate pastors at the time.

[00:11:29] We both applied.

[00:11:30] And the week after we got there, we found out that I was not going to get the other call.

[00:11:36] And so then we thought, huh, we're in Fort Dodge, Iowa for Austin to have this call.

[00:11:41] And I had a real, oh my goodness, you know, dark night of the soul.

[00:11:46] What the heck am I going to do?

[00:11:49] And for brevity's sake, a year later, I got a call to be a solo pastor three quarters time in the town of Goldfield, Iowa, population 600.

[00:11:59] The Goldfield Cheese Mart, no stoplights, a dear, dear town, a beautiful church.

[00:12:06] And so for the first year we were in Iowa, Austin served.

[00:12:10] And I was just doing some part-time things.

[00:12:14] And then for the next five years, for the next four years, I was a solo pastor.

[00:12:19] Austin was the youth and young adults pastor.

[00:12:23] Austin, I'll turn it back to you.

[00:12:25] Sure. Yeah.

[00:12:26] It's kind of like a round of robin, by the way.

[00:12:28] Back and forth a little bit.

[00:12:30] Exactly.

[00:12:31] Yeah.

[00:12:32] So while Sarah was up in Goldfield, there were some changes that had happened in our church.

[00:12:36] When I first started there, I was one of three pastors.

[00:12:39] There were two associates and a senior pastor.

[00:12:42] 18 months later, the other associate pastor found his dream job, attorney Evangelical Divinity School,

[00:12:49] and went there, I think, to serve as the chaplain for their chapel program.

[00:12:53] And our church at the time then basically took that position and combined it with my position and with the senior pastor's position.

[00:13:02] So I moved from being the associate pastor for youth and young adults and just being an associate pastor,

[00:13:08] kind of doing a smorgasbord of responsibilities.

[00:13:10] You know, so adding new members, more regular preaching and visitation.

[00:13:15] And then about 18 months after that, or maybe not even that long, our senior pastor left the church and left PCOSA ministry altogether.

[00:13:25] So that was a pretty significant time of transition for our church.

[00:13:29] We formed a PNC and we had an interim for about a year.

[00:13:33] And about a year into that, I had a ministry coach that I had been meeting with on a biweekly basis.

[00:13:41] And he finally reached out to me and said, so how come you haven't put your name out there for consideration in this position?

[00:13:48] And honestly, the thought hadn't even occurred to me because I enjoyed being an associate.

[00:13:53] And I thought, surely there's no way that I would be ready at this point.

[00:13:57] I was 29 at the time.

[00:14:00] But I started thinking about it, praying about it, talking with this ministry coach.

[00:14:03] And then eventually reached out to our executive presbyter and some other people in our presbyteries committee on ministry and discerned what that possibility could look like.

[00:14:15] And ultimately, through a few months and a fair amount of meetings, because we Presbyterians, you know, we love our meetings.

[00:14:22] The church offered the position of senior pastor to me at 29.

[00:14:27] And then the first responsibility I had was then searching for basically my replacement or somebody else to be the associate pastor.

[00:14:35] Because even though I was put in that new position, they were still just I was the only pastor there.

[00:14:40] So we formed a new search committee.

[00:14:42] And about a year and a half later, Sarah had kind of a similar experience.

[00:14:47] And I'll let you fill in the details.

[00:14:49] But ultimately, we offered a call to Sarah as the associate pastor.

[00:14:53] So Sarah, I don't know if there's anything you want to add to that part of it.

[00:14:57] Sure.

[00:14:57] So they were searching for an associate pastor, and I was praying for them and hoping they would find someone and was really enjoying my time up in Goldfield and not interested in applying.

[00:15:08] And then it was Holy Week of 2014.

[00:15:12] And Austin and I serving in two different congregations with all of those services.

[00:15:16] We were just two ships passing in the night.

[00:15:18] We had a two-year-old and a 10-month-old.

[00:15:22] And it was just like, I guess I'll see you on Easter afternoon.

[00:15:26] Bye.

[00:15:26] Good luck at your church and good luck at my church.

[00:15:29] I mean, it was just being pulled in two different directions.

[00:15:32] And I wondered, I think the Spirit nudged me to wonder, what would this look like next year if you guys were serving together and were at the services together?

[00:15:41] Or both of you weren't writing a Palm Sunday, a Maundy Thursday, a Good Friday, an Easter sunrise, and an Easter Sunday sermon.

[00:15:51] And I thought, huh.

[00:15:53] So just prayed about it a little more.

[00:15:55] And ultimately in maybe May or so of that year, threw my hat into the ring to be considered for the associate pastor position, was one of the final two candidates and then was the candidate they extended the call to in June.

[00:16:11] And so then September 1st, 2024, not 2024, 2014, sorry, I started and moved to full-time from 30 hours a week up to full-time.

[00:16:23] And so for nine years, almost nine years, Austin and I got to serve together.

[00:16:28] And the cheesy joke I make is that Austin was the boss at church and I was the boss at home.

[00:16:34] That was no joke, by the way.

[00:16:38] That's not a joke.

[00:16:39] I'll be honest.

[00:16:40] Yeah.

[00:16:40] So from 2014 to 2023, we served together.

[00:16:45] Our presbytery was amazing enough that both of us got to have wonderful leadership positions in the presbytery that sometimes required us to carry a heavy load, but were wonderful.

[00:16:58] Growing experiences for us.

[00:17:00] Austin got his doctorate of ministry during that time.

[00:17:03] I'm so proud of you, Austin.

[00:17:05] We were continuing to raise our two babies who are now 11 and 12.

[00:17:10] And got to do that at the same church on Sundays.

[00:17:14] Our town is 25,000.

[00:17:17] And so it was small enough where we really got to be involved in the town and for the community and live into that call that Jeremiah told the Israelites.

[00:17:26] Like, if you seek the welfare of the city where you are in its welfare, you will find your own welfare.

[00:17:31] And we really tried to live that out over those nine years together of seeking the welfare of the city of Fort Dodge and the people of Fort Dodge as we served in the church.

[00:17:41] I love that.

[00:17:43] I've got so many questions.

[00:17:44] Let me just kind of up Periscope just for a second.

[00:17:47] Or maybe it's the other way.

[00:17:48] Maybe we're going to drill deeper.

[00:17:49] I'm not sure.

[00:17:49] But I want to camp out here for a minute.

[00:17:52] So I just want to review the facts.

[00:17:54] Make sure I got them straight.

[00:17:55] So you have a two-year-old and a 10-month-old.

[00:17:59] You are applying for a position you had previously been denied.

[00:18:05] Okay.

[00:18:06] So you're applying at the same church.

[00:18:07] Yes.

[00:18:10] Both of you are applying for positions you did not have any interest in applying for.

[00:18:16] Correct.

[00:18:17] And you both get it.

[00:18:22] And now you're trying to work not only for the good of Fort Dodge, but you are truly trying to do church health revitalization.

[00:18:31] I'm sure.

[00:18:31] Were there for you red flags that were going up?

[00:18:37] Not that you were worried it wasn't going to work out, but like, hey, this church has now gone through this many pastors.

[00:18:44] And, hey, I was actually rejected from this church before.

[00:18:48] Tell me about what were some of those things for you as much as you can share?

[00:18:55] Sure.

[00:18:55] I mean, there were a fair amount of those.

[00:18:58] And the senior pastor who had been present when we came had only been at the church for about a year when we first came there.

[00:19:05] He was following his predecessor who had been there for 17 years and was beloved by the congregation.

[00:19:12] So in some ways, the senior pastor before me was almost like an extended interim.

[00:19:18] And he really was continuing to lead the congregation through transition.

[00:19:25] And so when we got there, there was a lot of ongoing transition still.

[00:19:29] And when the two pastors before me, when that senior pastor had left, he left kind of right when the church in the United States was at its pinnacle, you know, just kind of Christian culture and church culture in general.

[00:19:45] So he left at the like 2005, 2006.

[00:19:49] So his tenure was 1989 to 2006.

[00:19:52] And if you think about church growth and the church growth movement in that time, I mean, it was Pete.

[00:19:57] So in his time, the church had expanded and had built what we call the Christian Life Center and had they started a contemporary worship service.

[00:20:06] And we're doing all of this incredible work.

[00:20:08] And then when he left and my predecessor came, there is this ongoing question of, OK, so what do we do now?

[00:20:14] And the church never really was able to answer that in the four years that he was there before he left.

[00:20:20] And then when we came into that position within within about the year that I was there, we found out that there had been some sexual misconduct and some ethical things that had happened prior to my time in the very office where I was.

[00:20:37] Oh, my God.

[00:20:37] So we were definitely stepping into just quite a lot.

[00:20:42] I mean, red flag is maybe even not a potent enough word for, I think, what we were stepping into.

[00:20:49] And yet young and like sort of, you know, plucky and like, well, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

[00:20:56] Right.

[00:20:57] And so let's just let's just go for it.

[00:21:00] And yeah, so I think we had some understanding of what those challenges were, but also just didn't fully understand the depth of that and how pervasive those challenges would feel over the course of the next decade.

[00:21:16] But that was just kind of some of my reflections there.

[00:21:19] I don't know if there's anything more you'd want to add to.

[00:21:23] It was hard to decide to throw my hat in the ring again, knowing that I had been not chosen the first time.

[00:21:32] And I thought about our life with us serving two different churches.

[00:21:39] And then I imagined what our life could be like serving one church in the town where we lived.

[00:21:45] And I think to me, it got to a point through prayer and discernment and talking to trusted friends and mentors that I always would wonder what if, if I didn't apply.

[00:21:57] And so I thought I will just apply again.

[00:22:00] And if they reject me again, okay.

[00:22:04] But if not, you know, I'm really excited about this opportunity.

[00:22:07] So I think that's how I decided to apply again the second time.

[00:22:13] And I think.

[00:22:15] Oh, go ahead, Austin.

[00:22:15] Sorry.

[00:22:16] I was just going to add one other reflection.

[00:22:18] So back when we were in seminary and trying to figure out what life would look like with two of us seeking ordained calls, I remember at the time thinking, well, if we worked in two different churches, how would that even work?

[00:22:31] Which church would our kids go to?

[00:22:33] Are they going to say, I prefer dad's church or mom's church?

[00:22:37] But then also if we work in the same church, how would that work?

[00:22:40] Like what church would want to pastors?

[00:22:42] And so many of those questions that I had seemed insurmountable at the time.

[00:22:46] And as I look back, what has been fascinating is that for each of those different stages where we found ourselves, I think God kind of provided a way for those things to work that went so far beyond what we initially would have thought.

[00:23:02] And looking back, it was amazing that all of those doubts or those questions or fears I had seemed to kind of be addressed in each of those stages.

[00:23:12] Yeah.

[00:23:13] And so you guys find yourself in this kind of new territory, exploring this new dynamic, working together and all of that.

[00:23:19] And I wonder if you could go back or maybe somebody's looking at opportunities.

[00:23:24] Are there questions that you would ask now that you didn't know to ask then to give yourself a clearer picture of all the circumstances?

[00:23:32] I think sometimes, you know, we get into, we get excited about a role or an opportunity and it's, you know, we kind of get the ideal version, the rose colored glasses version of the job description or something.

[00:23:44] And I don't know.

[00:23:45] I think I would probably ask better questions now, but what, what would you have asked somebody young, maybe listening?

[00:23:51] What kinds of things would you steer them toward?

[00:23:55] Well, Sarah, you just kind of went through that recently is, we'll get to that maybe a little bit later in our story.

[00:24:01] But what were some questions that you had of our current church that maybe were different from or based on your experience working at our previous church?

[00:24:11] Does anything come to mind?

[00:24:12] I think I asked, I asked questions this past summer as I took a new call to serve a new church in our new town.

[00:24:22] We're not in Iowa anymore.

[00:24:24] Not that, I don't think we said that, but we don't live in Iowa anymore.

[00:24:29] Just some relational questions like about, you know, previous people who had been on staff and did they leave well or did they not leave well?

[00:24:42] Or, okay, you have this, you know, foundation, you know, stuff with foundations and church foundations and all that.

[00:24:50] I know to ask questions about that.

[00:24:52] Not that I did at this church until I was already on staff, but just asking better questions about, like, what's the plan?

[00:25:01] So what is-

[00:25:02] What are we getting ourselves into?

[00:25:04] Just questions.

[00:25:05] How well does the staff work together?

[00:25:06] What happens when there's staff conflict?

[00:25:11] How do you deal with, you know, how do you, whoever the you is as the senior pastor or the head of staff, how do you deal with an email that comes your way about a staff member?

[00:25:22] Or how do you deal with insubordination or something?

[00:25:27] Just some of those questions that we were so new in the ministry and I was so young and also a woman and hadn't really found, like, my voice yet and had and still struggled just with having self-confidence enough to take up space and ask those questions.

[00:25:42] There were a lot of questions that maybe I wanted to ask, but just never, I was too scared to ask, but I'm able to ask those questions.

[00:25:51] Yeah.

[00:25:52] Now, what about you, Austin?

[00:25:54] Well, I think for me, questions like, these would be questions that I would ask the nominating committee or whoever the group of people that I'd be in conversation with.

[00:26:03] I would ask, where do you see the church in the next five to 10 years?

[00:26:06] What gives you hope?

[00:26:08] One of the things that I had the privilege of doing previously was on our committee in ministry, I would visit churches and do these triennial visits.

[00:26:16] And you'd have sort of a standard set of questions that you would spend talking to the elder board of that church and just getting a sense of where is this church going?

[00:26:25] So I think a lot of the questions that are in that triennial visit, so questions like, what gives you hope?

[00:26:30] What makes you excited about the ministry of your church?

[00:26:32] And to not just hear that from the staff, but to hear that from members of the church.

[00:26:38] And then, but to also ask that of the staff, because you can really get a sense of how effectively is the mission and vision that maybe the staff has?

[00:26:46] How is that kind of disseminating to the rest of the congregation, or at least these people who are a little more involved?

[00:26:53] I think questions about expectations are a big one too.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] And so before we get to the part where you ended up making some changes and some shifts, tell me about what were some of the highlights, you know, nine years in one spot, were some things that you really look back and you're just like, man, that was awesome.

[00:27:14] I mean, there are so many things like between the two of us, between Sarah and myself, we did, I think.

[00:27:21] We're probably like 120 funerals in that time.

[00:27:23] And you might be thinking, wow, you know, why is that a highlight?

[00:27:27] But, but not only that, 120 funerals, I think I did like 60 weddings and you just, you're there with people through the highs and lows of life and you baptize kids.

[00:27:38] I mean, I had the privilege of having kids go through confirmation and then officiating their weddings like 10, 11, 12 years later, or even some of them baptizing their kids.

[00:27:50] And so, I mean, you have kind of these multiple generations that you get to see and you actually do get to see the fruit of labor and you get to see the harvest from some of those seeds that were either planted or watered.

[00:28:03] 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 years prior.

[00:28:06] And that I think was a particular joy that we had.

[00:28:09] I think connected to that, we started an intern program where we had college students who would work kind of part-time as interns in our youth ministry or our children's ministry.

[00:28:22] And I think we actually did an episode about that probably like four or five years ago.

[00:28:26] So if anyone's interested, they can go back into the archives.

[00:28:29] But I'll link it on the show notes.

[00:28:31] I'll link it.

[00:28:31] Yeah.

[00:28:32] I think we had probably like 35 college interns over the time that I was there.

[00:28:37] And one of them is at University of Debutte Theological Seminary now and is under care with our presbytery.

[00:28:46] And I know for both Sarah and myself, working as interns when we were in college was a huge step in discerning what our gifts for ministry were and having people speak into us and really encourage us and teach us.

[00:29:01] So that was a ton of fun.

[00:29:03] It was a huge help for the congregation.

[00:29:05] And it really, I think, connected young adults to the ministry of our church in ways that we wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

[00:29:14] So that was something that I look back on very much as a positive thing, as a success for the church and for our ministry while we were there that we kind of started earlier on.

[00:29:24] But Sarah, I mean, I don't know if there's more you would want to add to that as well.

[00:29:27] Yeah, I think I would just drill down on the community relationships in terms of butts in the pews and bucks in the offering plate.

[00:29:41] Butts in bucks.

[00:29:42] Right.

[00:29:43] That we were told those are the signs of growth.

[00:29:45] Honestly, especially, you know, COVID, of course, too.

[00:29:50] Like, those weren't there some years.

[00:29:54] And so it could be really easy to get discouraged.

[00:29:57] Like, there's less money coming in.

[00:29:59] There's more people dying.

[00:30:00] And there's less people here on a Sunday morning because they're at the lakes or they're camping or they're at soccer.

[00:30:06] Or dance or cheer.

[00:30:09] But it was those community relationships when my, you know, friend from CrossFit who I worked out with, you know, three days a week at noon on Fridays, when her relationship with her abusive boyfriend was falling apart for obvious reasons.

[00:30:24] And I was the person that she called because I was the only connection to some sort of God slash spiritual slash higher power type person she had in her life.

[00:30:36] Or we got to, like, through my 10% time for part of it, I was the fire department chaplain.

[00:30:44] That's right.

[00:30:45] Hello, Fort Dodge Fire and Rescue.

[00:30:46] Awesome.

[00:30:46] I miss you guys so much.

[00:30:48] You're the best.

[00:30:49] But being able to do premarital counseling with some of those guys as they got married or walk them through really crappy points in their life, but then also work out with them.

[00:31:00] And they were able to see that I'm just Sarah who also likes to listen to rap music as she lifts heavy barbells.

[00:31:07] So just being able to be a part of the community and to have them see that Austin and I are totally human and totally flawed.

[00:31:15] But, like, who you see on Sunday morning is also who you see in the gym is also who you see at dinner.

[00:31:20] Like, that we're the same all the time.

[00:31:22] I think that was a beautiful...

[00:31:25] That was beautiful for me to be able to give to Fort Dodge.

[00:31:29] And I grew a lot out of being that person.

[00:31:33] One of those people in Fort Dodge, too.

[00:31:35] Man.

[00:31:35] And I know she wants to say it.

[00:31:37] I'll just do a little quick brag here.

[00:31:39] The year before we left, Sarah was nominated and won the award for Volunteer of the Year from the Fort Dodge, basically, Chamber of Commerce.

[00:31:49] Oh, that's awesome.

[00:31:50] So she was recognized, you know, in front of all these community leaders as being the Volunteer of the Year.

[00:31:55] And, I mean, again, just another way that people were seeing our church being involved in the community and not in some kind of transactional way, but just to actually seek the welfare of the community.

[00:32:08] And people recognized it.

[00:32:10] I mean, they really saw it.

[00:32:12] Man.

[00:32:13] So you're slogging away.

[00:32:16] You're doing ministry.

[00:32:18] You're scrappy.

[00:32:19] You're figuring it out.

[00:32:20] You're pushing toward health.

[00:32:22] All of these things.

[00:32:23] Raising kids.

[00:32:26] And was it...

[00:32:28] I'm guessing the challenges were all along the way, just like they always are.

[00:32:32] But was it the pandemic?

[00:32:36] Was that what sort of pushed you to rethink your call to that church that maybe had been happening under the surface?

[00:32:47] Or was it not really the pandemic?

[00:32:50] Was it just kind of like you felt like it was time?

[00:32:52] Because I know Austin...

[00:32:54] So Austin came out.

[00:32:56] Austin flies.

[00:32:57] He's a pilot.

[00:32:58] So he flew out here.

[00:32:59] It was actually part of his sabbatical.

[00:33:01] So, I mean, this is like the big danger.

[00:33:03] You don't ever go on a sabbatical.

[00:33:04] I mean, like, you're going to change your life.

[00:33:06] But he came out and he visited my church as part of that.

[00:33:09] And it was really fun.

[00:33:10] It was great to see him.

[00:33:12] And he was telling me about flying up the Hudson.

[00:33:15] And that was kind of...

[00:33:16] It was just neat.

[00:33:18] You flew to Virginia.

[00:33:19] We've been back.

[00:33:20] And then, you know, I was here for the meeting.

[00:33:21] So...

[00:33:22] But I know even then, he was really in a time of discernment.

[00:33:27] So what was it for you guys where you felt like, you know what?

[00:33:30] I think it's time to make a change.

[00:33:35] Bring us to where you were at that point.

[00:33:37] Sure.

[00:33:38] Okay, I'll go first.

[00:33:39] Okay.

[00:33:41] So back in...

[00:33:44] So the school year of 2021-2022 was just that time frame of 10 months was a really heavy, intense time period for us.

[00:33:56] We had...

[00:33:58] Briefly, we had 17 funerals at the church, which was just a lot, including two people who were sitting active elders.

[00:34:07] The two people on our session died, one of COVID and one of lung cancer.

[00:34:12] And fall of 2021, you know, we're still coming out of the pandemic.

[00:34:17] We had two cats who passed away, which seems silly.

[00:34:21] But if you're a pet owner, you know that your pets dying are really awful.

[00:34:26] So we had, you know, our two cats died, the ones we got at Princeton.

[00:34:30] We had David, our wonderful exchange student, was with us from the Czech Republic at our house.

[00:34:37] And David is wonderful.

[00:34:39] And also just adding another human to your life, you know, into your family was very hard, you know, just having another kid.

[00:34:48] And then I...

[00:34:51] Oh, I had mono.

[00:34:51] Yeah, I got mono.

[00:34:54] I got...

[00:34:55] You know, so I was...

[00:34:56] You got COVID a second time.

[00:34:58] No.

[00:34:58] So I got mono the Monday before Palm Sunday.

[00:35:02] So that's a really fun time to get mono.

[00:35:05] So I was like, dear husband, I have mono and will be MIA for a month.

[00:35:10] And then also, dear boss, I have mono and will be MIA for a month.

[00:35:15] Wow.

[00:35:16] And we have an exchange student, you know, and two kids in, you know, third and fourth grade at that point.

[00:35:22] And then one of my parents and one of Austin's parents got some health news that was really significant.

[00:35:31] And so all of that happened in that time.

[00:35:34] Oh, my God.

[00:35:35] So in the summer of...

[00:35:36] So that was a heavy lift.

[00:35:37] In the summer of 2022, our friends were...

[00:35:41] Some church friends had taken our kids for a week.

[00:35:45] And so we were excited to have a week with no kids.

[00:35:48] But I had been in the hospital with a dear parishioner as he was dying.

[00:35:54] And I got COVID from that.

[00:35:56] And so instead of it being a week where we could...

[00:35:58] You know, we were foot loose and fancy free without kids because they were in Tulsa.

[00:36:02] It was great.

[00:36:04] I have COVID again.

[00:36:05] And I'm also secretly hoping that my husband doesn't get COVID so he can do the funeral,

[00:36:11] which is just like really messed up mentally.

[00:36:13] Like as I'm thinking back, I'm like, of course he has COVID.

[00:36:16] Like we're husband and wife.

[00:36:17] He's going to get COVID because I have it.

[00:36:19] But he tested negative so he could do the funeral.

[00:36:22] And at that point, I was just like, what are we...

[00:36:25] What am I doing?

[00:36:26] This is not...

[00:36:27] Why was I crossing my fingers that Austin wouldn't get COVID and could do the funeral?

[00:36:32] And at that point for me, being so far away from family and being kind of just always like

[00:36:41] overwhelmed or worried about or consumed in my brain space with like church stuff and never

[00:36:47] feeling like we had enough time for family.

[00:36:50] And also like our kids had felt like we had ditched them that past year because we had an

[00:36:57] exchange student.

[00:36:58] So they're like, oh, now you have David and you're taking all this time away from us.

[00:37:01] And whether that was perceived or real, it doesn't matter.

[00:37:04] They felt like they hadn't seen us a lot.

[00:37:07] And so for me, it was the summer of 2022 where I thought, honey, I know that you're thinking

[00:37:12] about the airlines and making a change and Austin will let you share that.

[00:37:15] But for me, it was no longer...

[00:37:17] I'll stay here and continue to be an associate pastor and you go pursue your flight career and

[00:37:22] I'll continue to serve at the church.

[00:37:24] For me, I felt that I was no longer able to serve the people with energy, intelligence,

[00:37:30] imagination, and love.

[00:37:31] And I knew that I needed to make a change too, that I was doing things in an unhealthy way

[00:37:38] that was not sustainable and that was leading to burnout.

[00:37:40] And I had resonated with everything that people were saying are symptoms of burnout.

[00:37:47] And so for me, that was that summer of 22 where we decided let's leave well and leave about

[00:37:54] a year from now at the end of school next year.

[00:37:57] Let's try to leave Fort Dodge and the church well.

[00:37:59] For me, that was the turning point.

[00:38:01] So what about you, Austin?

[00:38:05] Well, there's kind of two parts of this.

[00:38:06] So one, from all the way back when I was like 13, I either wanted to be a pilot or a pastor.

[00:38:12] And that goes back to family kind of influences on both sides of the family.

[00:38:18] So those, while they're very different careers, those have always been passions of mine.

[00:38:23] And ultimately, I decided to pursue ministry and really felt called to that concurrently in

[00:38:31] that same time.

[00:38:32] So I started working on that pilot license basically the year I became the senior pastor.

[00:38:36] So you can kind of track that same 10-year time.

[00:38:39] And over the time that I was in ministry, one of the things I noticed was that when

[00:38:46] we first got there, average attendance on a Sunday morning was 420.

[00:38:50] And by the time we left, a good Sunday was like 140.

[00:38:55] So it was a third of what it was when we first got there.

[00:38:59] And we can all identify so many things that have happened in that 14-year span.

[00:39:04] But anytime you're in a place for a long amount of time, you're going to have people who leave

[00:39:10] because of decisions you make.

[00:39:11] And you're going to have people who come because of decisions you make.

[00:39:14] And I found as a senior pastor, there were so many things that I had to do in that position

[00:39:21] that either I felt like I had never kind of signed up for or certainly I didn't enjoy.

[00:39:27] And that really just killed the joy and passion of ministry.

[00:39:32] And what I mean by that is, I mean, personnel decisions.

[00:39:35] And we had a lot of personnel turmoil in the time that we were there.

[00:39:39] I think one of the challenges being in a rural community is that it's just a lot harder to get

[00:39:44] people who are willing to relocate and really kind of put a solid effort into the job.

[00:39:52] So that was an ongoing challenge.

[00:39:55] And it seemed like a metaphor that I kept having in my mind was that I was on a boat that would

[00:40:02] spring leaks and there were only so many fingers I had to plug these leaks.

[00:40:08] And you can only do that for so long.

[00:40:11] And so I think over time, as the passion for flying was increasing and the passion for church

[00:40:19] ministry as a head of staff was decreasing, it sort of got to this point that happened to be at

[00:40:25] the same time that everything that Sarah was just sharing was also happening for her.

[00:40:31] And in that week, we first started talking about this.

[00:40:34] There were a lot of logistical things that were kind of falling into place.

[00:40:37] So we decided, I mean, we were both 39 at the time and we said, let's move to be close to family.

[00:40:45] My parents live here in Nashville.

[00:40:47] Let's try this total change where I can fly for an airline.

[00:40:52] And if five years from now, it's totally not what we thought it would be.

[00:40:57] I'll only be 44 with 14 years of church experience and, you know, demon and all this other kind of

[00:41:04] stuff. Like there will still be a need for pastors then, just like there is now.

[00:41:10] So it was kind of like, what do you have to lose?

[00:41:13] Yeah.

[00:41:15] So you both seem really happy and, and that's, I'm really excited about that.

[00:41:21] Tell us a bit.

[00:41:22] So for you, Sarah Brands make a new job ministry call and Austin, you've been flying now for a bit.

[00:41:29] Tell us about how you're doing just right now.

[00:41:32] Like, how's it going?

[00:41:33] How has this changed?

[00:41:34] I know it's still early, but what are the kind of leading indicators here?

[00:41:39] Sure.

[00:41:40] So we moved, we ended our call in May of 23 and then the kids finished school either that

[00:41:46] month or the next month.

[00:41:47] And then we moved to, to middle Tennessee to Franklin, which is just South of Nashville

[00:41:52] on June, June 20th. And we are in the same Metro area as all of Austin's, his two brothers

[00:42:00] and his mom and his dad and all of their families. And we, we both have aunts and uncles and cousins

[00:42:06] and second cousins in the Metro area. So there's about 25 people who are our family who live in

[00:42:12] Metro Nashville with us, which is why we chose to move to Nashville. If Austin was going to be flying

[00:42:17] and gone about 50% of the time, it, we thought that it would be great to live in the same Metro

[00:42:25] area as grandma and grandpa and, and the cousins. So for the first year, so Austin started flying

[00:42:31] in July of 23. So he's about 14 months into it. So for the first year we got everybody settled,

[00:42:37] um, into their new schools and car line and new, new church, new youth group. We started worshiping

[00:42:44] at first Presbyterian church of Nashville, where Austin's parents are members. And, um, one of our

[00:42:50] seminary friends, if you guys remember Eric Osborne, he, um, is there, he went to law school afterwards

[00:42:56] and is a lawyer, but he's there. So the first day we were there at church and like, I think that's

[00:43:01] Eric Osborne. I think we lived in Brown Hall together back in 2006. Um, so just made some connections.

[00:43:10] Um, so Jason, the, the senior pastor of Tower Hill before you, John Musgrave, he's there as a part-time

[00:43:17] parish associate. So I was like, Oh, Tower Hill. I know that from my friend, Jason. So just lots of

[00:43:22] little connections. Um, excuse me. I was really wanting to like rest and really felt a call to family

[00:43:30] and to be more present to family and to kids. And so wasn't looking for a call. And then, um,

[00:43:36] as we're recording this about three months ago, the senior pastor at first Pres asked me to get

[00:43:43] together for coffee. And I completely thought he was going to ask me to teach a Sunday school class

[00:43:48] in the fall. And he just said, um, I know that you're burnt out and I know that you don't want

[00:43:54] something full time. However, we do have a need for more pastoral staff. Would you consider serving

[00:44:01] in a parish associate role in a part-time manner? Um, whatever you love to do in ministry,

[00:44:08] just do that. Um, you know, three Sundays a month, you want to work more during the year and less in

[00:44:14] the summer, you know, for your kids. Like he was just so wonderful in asking me to do something that

[00:44:21] worked well to use the gifts that God has given me, given me, but also recognize that

[00:44:27] with Austin gone four days a week, I do, I am, you know, the point person and the, um, point parent

[00:44:34] for them and they are tweens and they don't drive yet. And, you know, so I am driving them all over.

[00:44:40] And it was really beautiful because over that year I had seen myself missing ministry. Um,

[00:44:47] I had filled pulpits around middle, the Presbytery, middle Tennessee and enjoyed those Sundays.

[00:44:52] I had, um, you know, enjoyed sitting in the pew at Christmas Eve, but also missing being upfront or,

[00:45:01] you know, enjoyed getting ashes smeared on my head for Ash Wednesday, but also missed being able to

[00:45:05] smear the ashes on other people's foreheads. And, um, so I said that I would pray about it,

[00:45:13] of course, but really I was like, where do I sign? This sounds wonderful, but I had to be cool.

[00:45:20] So, um, I just started on staff there about three weeks ago. I'm part-time about 15 to 20 hours a week.

[00:45:28] And, um, I'm really enjoying it. It's so different to be on the pastoral staff where I'm not married

[00:45:36] to the senior pastor and where we, I am doing a much better job of leaving church at church and

[00:45:43] leaving, um, you know, and coming home. I'm one of four ordained pastors on staff and they are

[00:45:50] currently searching for two more full-time, um, two of us are part-time and two full-time.

[00:45:55] So just, uh, it's a huge staff, like 60 people. It's a huge congregation, like 4,000 or 4,500 members.

[00:46:03] And so it's a lot different than, than Iowa in some ways, but then, you know, ministry is sort of the

[00:46:08] same in every way too. There's still the same stuff, but so far I'm really enjoying it and enjoying the,

[00:46:14] um, kind of part-time nature of it and being more present to my kids. But then also we see Austin's

[00:46:22] family so much, which is such a gift after not seeing them for 14 years. It is, um, it doesn't feel

[00:46:28] like an obligation. It feels like such a joy, joy that we get to see them. I hug. My father-in-law

[00:46:34] is at church every Tuesday morning for men's Bible study. So I get to hug him on Tuesday mornings when

[00:46:38] they come in and just say, um, hi Dave, you know, have a great day. I love you. And to hug him.

[00:46:44] And that is such a gift. And my parents are in North Carolina, but pretty soon they'll make a move

[00:46:51] either here or to where my brother lives in DC. And we're able to see them a lot more as well.

[00:46:57] And just have, we have more margin in our life, which is something that I think because both of us

[00:47:02] were not only married, but then also serving the same church. And we were the only two pastors on staff.

[00:47:07] It just felt like all encompassing or just like there was never time off. Or like, if I took time

[00:47:17] off, that meant that it was on Austin's shoulders or it just towards the end, I guess it just felt

[00:47:22] really heavy and it feels, um, you know, it feels lighter now. That's so awesome. I, uh, I'm so glad

[00:47:31] you're there. It's so funny that I was just there for a conference last spring and I, and I met your

[00:47:36] senior pastor and I just a super great guy and seems like a really great pastor and leader.

[00:47:43] And by the way, your church's campus, people don't understand. People will have no idea what

[00:47:50] we're talking about. We're not just talking about a big church. No, it's the biggest piece of land.

[00:47:57] There's horses. Yeah. We have an equestrian ministry. My mind, I saw, I seriously, my mind was so blown.

[00:48:06] I know we have a, we have a day school for preschool, but then through sixth grade.

[00:48:12] Yeah. It's like a community college. Well, you guys, thank you so much. Thank you for being on

[00:48:17] here. Thank you for sharing your story. I'm so glad that God is blessing you. And it's fun to see

[00:48:22] from the outside, how God has brought you where you are. Um, thanks for doing that. You're such

[00:48:29] an encouragement and I love, I love seeing you guys. And I always think to myself,

[00:48:34] every time I see you guys, how come I don't see these guys more often?

[00:48:39] But thank you. Thank you for being here. You're welcome. Y'all are always welcome down here in

[00:48:44] Franklin. Jason, it's always, I love connecting with friends that we've known for a long time and

[00:48:50] I can't wait to see where Austin's going to fly us on our first retreat. Is it going to be to

[00:48:55] Europe? Are we going to go to Hawaii? I don't know. Come on, Austin. Yeah, come on, let's go.

[00:48:59] But really just appreciate it. Like we said at the outset, just the vulnerability to share

[00:49:04] about their journey with us. And as pastors or church leaders, hearing other pastors tell their

[00:49:10] stories helps us to reflect on and think about ours. And let's couple pulling on a couple of

[00:49:15] threads or just things that I'm taking away is just the willing willingness to be kind of honest

[00:49:21] with yourself about what's going on and being introspective and paying attention to your heart,

[00:49:27] your mind, your soul, your, your faith, listening for the Holy spirit, uh, listening to what's going

[00:49:32] on in, in your, uh, heart and mind and your role in life and all of those things kind of as you're

[00:49:38] discerning your call. So, um, I just appreciated the vulnerability as we're listening to their story.

[00:49:43] Yeah, me too. And I kept thinking about, you know, one thing before we hit record,

[00:49:48] we're talking about, we don't want everyone to like leave their church now because they do seem

[00:49:52] a lot fuller and, you know, it feels like they can breathe in their lives and they're happy and,

[00:49:59] you know, working into this new season. But I think for me, it was just a reminder.

[00:50:04] Am I paying attention to the own warning signs I'm having of like not being healthy?

[00:50:09] Yeah. Allowing, you know, where every waking moment is doing ministry or too much time away

[00:50:17] from family or whatever that is, there's always these sort of indicators that all is not right.

[00:50:23] And you could do that for a season, but am I really, am I kidding myself and, and, or am I being honest

[00:50:29] with myself and making sure that I'm getting the kind of support and space that I need is how you

[00:50:37] keep doing this for years and years and years, you know, I think that's the key takeaway, pay attention.

[00:50:42] And if you notice, if you listen there, as they're telling their story, there are other people in

[00:50:47] their lives walking with them through that journey. And Austin talking about having some trusted folks

[00:50:52] to, to discern about pastor pilot and all that. And so it wasn't just alone in a room.

[00:50:59] And it was in community, paying attention personally, but also with others that know that know you well,

[00:51:06] and that you trust to help you discern that too. So yeah, really good stuff. And really just so much

[00:51:11] fun to catch up with Sarah and Austin. Yeah. And I'm waiting for Austin's book. It's going to have

[00:51:15] to be like the threefold office of Austin, pastor pilot friend, right? Yeah. I like it.

[00:51:22] Yeah. Okay. There you go, Austin. That's, that's free. That's for free. No, but thanks so much,

[00:51:27] everyone. We appreciate you. And again, you could win as part of our pastor appreciation month,

[00:51:34] reclaimleader.com slash newsletter. You could sign up, be part of our subscription list,

[00:51:40] and that's how you win. Anything else before we sign off?

[00:51:44] No, I'm just, I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be a part of this with other pastors and leaders

[00:51:48] trying to figure it out. We are in the trenches, trying to make it work.

[00:51:52] We sure are.

[00:51:55] We're just, yeah, we've been, we're in the trenches even today. We're just talking about

[00:51:58] how much is going on and it's good and it's hard and all the things, but we're glad to be in it

[00:52:03] together. And I appreciate you, Jason, the time we get to bounce ideas off each other,

[00:52:07] encourage each other. And hopefully this is helping some of you out there that are listening

[00:52:11] and part of the conversation too.

[00:52:13] Because as we say every week, ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together.

[00:52:18] Take care, everyone.