RL 361: Stories from the Trenches (Pastor Robbie Ytterberg)

[00:00:00] I think I didn't have full appreciation for the expectations that folks carried. And so I think it was at times naive to the fact that I was disappointing some of those expectations. At times, I think it was probably too flippant in disappointing those expectations. And so I think I created at times a challenge that wasn't entirely necessary.

[00:00:25] Welcome to episode 361. Today we continue Pastor Appreciation Month as we interview pastors just like you in the trenches. We learn about what they're doing, what they're learning, and how God is showing up. In this episode, we have a great conversation with Pastor Robbie Ytterberg from Toms River, New Jersey, as he talks about helping a church look forward instead of backward. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.

[00:00:53] Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker.

[00:00:56] And I'm Jesse Skiffington.

[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact.

[00:01:04] We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that worked for us, and some that didn't.

[00:01:09] Best practices and practical tools for church leadership.

[00:01:12] The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.

[00:01:19] It's so good to be back again, Jesse, in Pastor Appreciation Month, talking to pastors, stories from the trenches.

[00:01:26] Today we have a friend of both of ours on, Robbie Ytterberg from Presbyterian Church at Toms River.

[00:01:32] And man, it's such a great conversation and again, such an encouragement.

[00:01:37] I love hearing these stories because you just see yourself in all of the ups and downs and everything.

[00:01:44] It's just nice to know that we're all kind of going through it.

[00:01:48] I don't know. There's something about it that is very powerful.

[00:01:50] Yeah. I mean, we're kind of in some ways, we're all living the same story just in our own unique context.

[00:01:56] I mean, there's elements or threads that carry through all of it.

[00:01:59] And so I think that's what I've appreciated about hearing the stories from our pastors in the trenches.

[00:02:04] Just we're not alone.

[00:02:06] There are other really awesome, capable leaders called into ministry who were slogging it out, trying to lead revitalization.

[00:02:12] And the more we can connect with each other and encourage each other, I think that's a really good thing.

[00:02:17] So yeah, Robbie's awesome.

[00:02:20] So you guys are going to love this conversation.

[00:02:21] Yeah.

[00:02:22] Hopefully you'll really be encouraged by it.

[00:02:24] Yeah. Robbie's the best.

[00:02:26] Before we keep going, we're going to do another giveaway.

[00:02:28] So I did, I drew another name out of the hat, you know, got to the game, beep, boop, boop, boop, boop, spit out a name.

[00:02:35] And so we're giving away Carl Vader's, his most recent book, Desizing the Church.

[00:02:40] We had Carl on, well, now it's been a while.

[00:02:43] Yeah.

[00:02:43] But it was really good though, man.

[00:02:44] So good.

[00:02:44] Yeah, it was really good.

[00:02:45] And his book is, is really good, I think.

[00:02:48] And so anyway, the winner is Tasha Blackburn from First Press Fort Smith, Arkansas.

[00:02:56] Right.

[00:02:57] Shout out.

[00:02:58] Yeah.

[00:02:59] And from the Presbytery of Arkansas.

[00:03:01] So I got all my buddies there.

[00:03:03] I did a cohort with that group last year and Tasha, you won.

[00:03:08] Congratulations.

[00:03:09] We'll be sending that book to you.

[00:03:12] And before we go into the interview again, everybody else, if you do us a favor and just tell, tell folks about the podcast, you know, that's one of the things is, you know, we're really not advertising in a, in a way.

[00:03:24] Listen, we're pastors, man.

[00:03:25] We don't got like budget or anything like that.

[00:03:27] That's right.

[00:03:27] So you sharing this episode with others or leaving us a review on your platform of choice helps other pastors discover us in the podcast.

[00:03:36] And it was so cool.

[00:03:38] And it was so cool, Jesse.

[00:03:38] I got a chance to talk to someone this week, someone who's doing actually the cohort now, who is just sharing how he got hooked onto the podcast.

[00:03:47] It was like someone from his church said, Oh, you should listen to this.

[00:03:51] And he's had their staff listen to episodes and they, you know, works on stuff together.

[00:03:55] It was so encouraging to hear because it goes out into the internet and we have no idea where it's landing.

[00:04:02] So that was really cool.

[00:04:03] But anyway, if it's landing for you, please share with others.

[00:04:06] But yeah, it wasn't that cool.

[00:04:07] I love it.

[00:04:08] I just think it's fun.

[00:04:09] And we're all talking shop together is what it comes down to it.

[00:04:11] You and I, however many years ago now, we just hit record on the conversations.

[00:04:15] And so I'm glad that it's resonating with some folks and you know, we're here to be helpful.

[00:04:20] So reach out.

[00:04:21] I mean, Jason or Jesse at reclaim leader.com.

[00:04:24] And we'd love hearing from folks and getting to workshop with you and just, we care about the church.

[00:04:28] So we're here for you.

[00:04:30] All right.

[00:04:31] Well, Hey, here now is our interview with Robbie Yitterberg.

[00:04:35] We are so excited to have Robbie on the podcast.

[00:04:38] He is a colleague from the great state of New Jersey, not from, but he is currently residing

[00:04:44] and been a while in the great state of New Jersey.

[00:04:46] He's the lead pastor at the Presbyterian church of Tom's river PCTR for those who know, uh,

[00:04:53] he's, he's a wonderful pastor leader and friend, and it's his first time on the podcast,

[00:04:59] which is a crime, honestly.

[00:05:01] And we're so excited to, I guess we'll let folks decide that later.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:06] Welcome.

[00:05:07] Be determined to be determined.

[00:05:08] That's right.

[00:05:10] Really glad to have you, Robbie.

[00:05:12] Yeah.

[00:05:13] Thanks.

[00:05:13] Awesome.

[00:05:14] We really just wanted to hear a bit about your ministry journey since you've been, especially

[00:05:20] since you've been here in New Jersey, you came to Tom's river.

[00:05:23] What year was it that you came?

[00:05:25] It's been a while now.

[00:05:26] Yeah, it has.

[00:05:27] It's a, it's a, it was the very end of 2016.

[00:05:30] My, actually my family drove into town.

[00:05:33] We were in the Pittsburgh area before here and we drove into town on Thanksgiving day

[00:05:39] of 2016.

[00:05:41] Um, I'm not sure exactly why we chose to do it that way at this point, but we did.

[00:05:46] And I'm sure nobody on the roads on.

[00:05:48] That's right.

[00:05:48] It was super, super clear on the Pennsylvania turnpike that day.

[00:05:52] So it made it easy.

[00:05:53] And when my son, we were rolling into town and we're supposed to have a Thanksgiving dinner

[00:05:58] of some kind at the house that we were moving into that was totally empty.

[00:06:02] And the only thing that was open was Walmart.

[00:06:06] All of the restaurants were closed.

[00:06:07] So my son and I run into Walmart and well, it's third Thanksgiving night.

[00:06:13] So they're getting ready for black Friday.

[00:06:15] There's stuff everywhere.

[00:06:17] And there's all these people standing around and we're like, why are people just standing

[00:06:22] here?

[00:06:22] Whatever.

[00:06:23] We're trying to go and shop.

[00:06:24] The closest thing to Turkey I could find was some ground, like turkey meat in the fridge

[00:06:29] section.

[00:06:30] So I'm grabbing that.

[00:06:31] Cause we're having Turkey for Thanksgiving.

[00:06:33] And then suddenly the clock strikes seven or whatever time it was.

[00:06:38] And all the people that were standing there were there for the early black Friday and total

[00:06:43] madhouse breaks out people running this way.

[00:06:46] And that way we're just trying to get groceries to have dinner and our very first night moving

[00:06:52] to New Jersey.

[00:06:53] So, you know, maybe it wasn't the best choice in retrospect, but.

[00:07:01] So, so Robbie, take us through.

[00:07:04] You were, uh, were you an associate out in Pittsburgh?

[00:07:08] I was, yeah, I was an associate at, uh, at Bethany Presbyterian there.

[00:07:12] We were there for, for just over five years.

[00:07:15] And you felt you started to feel on the call specifically to be, um, head of staff.

[00:07:21] Were you looking at solo positions as well?

[00:07:23] What were you, what were you looking for?

[00:07:25] Yeah.

[00:07:26] Had, had definitely had that sense that God was nudging me toward, uh, head of staff,

[00:07:32] lead pastor.

[00:07:33] I knew, knew preaching was something that was definitely on my heart and to be able to do

[00:07:38] that consistently.

[00:07:39] But the, I think the real thing was, I felt this like hunger to more deeply and directly

[00:07:47] influence the overall direction of the church and to be, be able to set the table for the

[00:07:53] kinds of conversation that were happening throughout all the leadership and to stimulate and spur

[00:08:01] on the questions of how are we going to faithfully bring the gospel to bear in this cultural moment.

[00:08:07] And just didn't feel like I had quite all of that opportunity, uh, in that role.

[00:08:12] And so started, started exploring, you know, my wife and I started really praying, okay, God, where are we

[00:08:19] going to be next?

[00:08:20] You know, I grew up in Colorado.

[00:08:21] She grew up in the Seattle area.

[00:08:23] And so we started asking God, where west are you going to send us so that we can go closer to family.

[00:08:28] And so, so he sent us really far west as we went all the way around the globe to find ourselves on the

[00:08:34] Jersey shore.

[00:08:35] But so people ask, you know, why are you here?

[00:08:38] And I just, it's God's sense of humor.

[00:08:40] That's it.

[00:08:42] Yeah.

[00:08:42] I remember we were doing some phone calls back and forth that, and early on, uh, just

[00:08:46] talking and shop and discerning calls and like this, that season, you know, you're in your

[00:08:51] role as an associate and kind of, you're figuring out, is there more to my leadership or my wiring

[00:08:56] and taking that next step and trying to discern where is that?

[00:09:00] What's it going to be like?

[00:09:01] And so you guys headed off all the way around.

[00:09:04] That's a long trip.

[00:09:05] That's a long trip that direction.

[00:09:07] Yeah.

[00:09:07] We just decided to drive east.

[00:09:09] Just full disclosure.

[00:09:11] Probably what the wise route to go for sure.

[00:09:13] Nicely done.

[00:09:15] So what were some of the things about Tom's river that felt like a really good fit for

[00:09:20] you?

[00:09:20] And where I'm going with this is your experience kind of that first year.

[00:09:24] Yeah.

[00:09:25] Um, what were some things that seemed like, you know what, I feel like I would be a really

[00:09:29] good fit for this congregation.

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:34] Yeah.

[00:09:35] From, from the absolute beginning, this congregation had an evident love for Jesus.

[00:09:41] You know?

[00:09:41] And so that was clear from the things that they had put in writing.

[00:09:45] It was clear from, you know, the, when we started to begin the conversations with the search

[00:09:50] committee.

[00:09:51] And, you know, so that, that was just the automatic beginning of it.

[00:09:57] But then the heart started to really align around the long, long history or next generation, um, for

[00:10:05] children and for teenagers.

[00:10:09] Uh, this, the church did a youth group in the 1890s with the explicit.

[00:10:17] Yeah.

[00:10:18] Yeah.

[00:10:19] That was allowed.

[00:10:19] I mean, it was a thing.

[00:10:21] It was a, I wish I can't remember off the top of my head what the name of it was, but

[00:10:25] it was something like an even evangelistic association for young people, something like

[00:10:32] that.

[00:10:32] And the, the explicit goal was the evangelism and discipleship of, of teenagers.

[00:10:40] Wow.

[00:10:40] And so in the 1890s, they were already expressing that heart and Tom's river was really small

[00:10:45] back, but they were expressing this heart for the next generation.

[00:10:48] And when you pull that thread through the church's history, that's continued to be at, at the

[00:10:55] heart of who the church wants to be values.

[00:10:58] Um, and so that I had at that time, I had three kids.

[00:11:03] Um, and you know, one was in middle school, one was in late elementary and one was in preschool

[00:11:09] still.

[00:11:09] And so that certainly resonated with me, but it's also, you know, certainly core to what

[00:11:15] I believe that that next generation, we've got to constantly be trying to figure out how

[00:11:18] are we getting to them?

[00:11:19] Yeah.

[00:11:21] When, when you got to the church and when you started, um, in what ways was it, uh, an

[00:11:29] affirmation of what you saw and in what ways were you just hit with some challenges pretty

[00:11:34] early on?

[00:11:35] And, and, you know, if you can name some of those.

[00:11:37] Sure.

[00:11:37] Um, I think it's good to hear what we go through.

[00:11:41] Yeah.

[00:11:42] And what the Lord does with that.

[00:11:44] Yeah.

[00:11:45] So, so some of the, the affirmations were, were easy in some ways, uh, up front because

[00:11:52] the energy and excitement that seemed to be on paper was there, you know, that there was

[00:11:58] a lot of energy and particularly around, you know, kids and students.

[00:12:03] And so, um, really that was quickly, you know, affirmed.

[00:12:07] And then, um, some of the other pieces that there was some, some really wonderful lay leaders,

[00:12:14] you know, who were deeply invested in the church that that felt like a great fit.

[00:12:19] Cause I'm getting to come alongside these lay leaders and begin some of those conversations

[00:12:24] of where do we go next?

[00:12:25] The staff at that time was, was really stable.

[00:12:29] They had come through a pretty tumultuous season prior to my arrival.

[00:12:33] Um, some of them were here through some real conflict and some of them, um, and through

[00:12:38] an extended interim.

[00:12:40] And during that interim, they, the staff actually stepped up in a lot of different ways.

[00:12:45] They, they took turns preaching at different points.

[00:12:48] They had, uh, all sorts of roles from signing checks to, you know, supervising sextant all

[00:12:54] these different roles that they wouldn't necessarily have had.

[00:12:57] And so when I came in, they actually had a sense of confidence and then the congregation

[00:13:00] had a love for their staff.

[00:13:02] Um, I think some of the, some of the initial, uh, challenges or things that I didn't necessarily

[00:13:08] fully comprehend on the way in.

[00:13:11] And some of it's cause I didn't press hard enough.

[00:13:13] This is just the truth of my own learning in that, that journey of coming on board.

[00:13:19] But, um, on paper, the church was 2,800 members at the time.

[00:13:25] Um, and I say that very clearly on paper, um, cause the, the real sense, the real number was

[00:13:33] much different than that, but the sense of identity was still connected with that number.

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:41] And so, um, there was a re a real, I guess a real connection with it.

[00:13:48] The history that had been so rich and so good.

[00:13:51] And the church had really exploded, particularly in the seventies and into the eighties.

[00:13:57] And, um, and so it was, and they had really been wonderful in investing in the community

[00:14:03] in all sorts of ways.

[00:14:05] A lot of the safety nets that exist in our community from the hospital to hospice, to,

[00:14:10] um, the suicide prevention lines, things like that.

[00:14:13] A lot of that came out of the people that were a part of this church then, you know, so I

[00:14:19] can't take any of the credit.

[00:14:20] It's just who they were at the time.

[00:14:22] But a lot of that sense of self was still kind of in the past.

[00:14:26] And that number, I think really represented that.

[00:14:31] Um, and so there was, but there wasn't real clarity on, okay, but who, who are we from

[00:14:37] the exact membership number?

[00:14:40] Cause what we, who we are in terms of the number of us shapes our expectations.

[00:14:46] It shapes, shapes our expectations of what we could do or couldn't do, you know, who

[00:14:50] we can be, what we expect from the other people in the congregation or not.

[00:14:55] Cause if there's just a whole lot more people, then I don't really need to do it.

[00:14:59] And, but that wasn't always the case.

[00:15:01] And so, um, so I think that was one of the initial challenges was to begin to grapple with

[00:15:08] that.

[00:15:09] And, um, and, and we did, um, I think another one of the challenges that I didn't fully

[00:15:15] understand was the enormity of the debt.

[00:15:19] I knew our, I knew the debt number, but I didn't understand the impact.

[00:15:25] And so when I came in, we had probably $200,000 a year of debt service, you know?

[00:15:34] And so that's a massive chunk of budget that is paying for stuff that by the time I came

[00:15:40] through the doors was already 12, 13 years old.

[00:15:45] Um, and so, um, that was a, that was a huge anchor that we were carrying when we came through.

[00:15:54] Um, and so we had to start thinking about what that would mean to tackle that.

[00:15:59] And, um, and then I think the other thing that I think I knew, but, but became clear,

[00:16:05] maybe affirmed kind of what I knew about one of the challenges was, um, what are we really

[00:16:11] about?

[00:16:13] Like we've, we know, we know the things that we do and that has, that had a long history

[00:16:20] because it was kind of the similar things though.

[00:16:22] There had been some changes over time, but, but why do we do it?

[00:16:28] And what is it that we're hoping to accomplish as a result?

[00:16:32] Or what do we believe even more so that God's calling us to accomplish through what we're

[00:16:36] doing?

[00:16:37] And so, yeah.

[00:16:39] Yeah.

[00:16:40] So how did you, how did you tackle those questions?

[00:16:42] How did you, what was your strategy for getting folks to be vulnerable enough to answer those

[00:16:52] questions?

[00:16:53] You know, cause part of it's like, there's always a story as to why a church is carrying

[00:16:58] debt.

[00:16:58] And it's usually, it comes from a good time when, you know, we make hay when the sun shines

[00:17:04] and writes time and, and you don't see down the road, the impact that it could have.

[00:17:10] How did you get them to sort of go through that process of honest assessment and forward

[00:17:16] looking?

[00:17:17] Yeah.

[00:17:18] There were a number of different angles, but I think I probably, before I even answered

[00:17:21] that question, just probably have to acknowledge one of the other challenges coming in that was

[00:17:27] really real was me.

[00:17:30] That I had a huge learning curve, you know, hadn't been in this role before.

[00:17:38] I think I didn't have full appreciation for the expectations that folks carried.

[00:17:45] And, and so I think was at times naive to the fact that I was disappointing some of those

[00:17:51] expectations at times.

[00:17:53] I think it was probably too flippant in disappointing those expectations.

[00:17:57] And so I think, I think I created at different, at times challenge that wasn't entirely necessary,

[00:18:05] but probably was necessary for some of my own growth.

[00:18:08] Um, and so I had to, I continue to have to kind of look, look in that mirror and go, you

[00:18:16] know, the problem isn't always out there.

[00:18:18] Is it a lot of the time it's in here and how do I, how do I need to move in a way that

[00:18:23] is helpful in terms of leading people in a direction rather than just kind of going for

[00:18:30] it, doing it, maybe look, always looking ahead.

[00:18:33] One of the things that I am aware have been brought to my attention multiple times.

[00:18:37] I don't always celebrate very well.

[00:18:40] And so that's something that I have to have reminders of and build in.

[00:18:45] And so have over the years had to, had to celebrate various times and various things

[00:18:50] with various folks to, I think, appreciate where we've come from.

[00:18:54] Yeah.

[00:18:54] So, so, you know, but in the, in the midst of that, coming back to, I guess, maybe the

[00:18:59] question directly that you asked was there was a lot of different angles that we had to

[00:19:03] kind of work from at different times.

[00:19:05] Some of them were intentional and some of them we just couldn't get away from.

[00:19:10] I mean, we, we eventually we did, we did start a capital campaign to address our debt.

[00:19:21] And the day, actually, it was almost five years ago.

[00:19:25] It was five years ago, last weekend, I believe that we, we being the, the session of the church,

[00:19:33] the elders of the church had to stand up during worship that weekend.

[00:19:36] And the announcements that we had to make was we only have money to pay the payroll through

[00:19:42] the end of the month.

[00:19:44] After that, we have no idea what's going to happen.

[00:19:46] Wow.

[00:19:47] And so if you can advance your giving that you were planning to do by the end of the year,

[00:19:51] please do.

[00:19:53] Cause we're just not sure exactly where this is going to go.

[00:19:56] Oh, and by the way, today we're starting a capital campaign.

[00:20:02] To address our debt because it's, it's drowning us.

[00:20:08] We're choking on this debt.

[00:20:09] And so we didn't have much of a choice.

[00:20:13] Like we had been laying the groundwork for six months before that to start the campaign.

[00:20:18] And part of it was just bringing it back to our elders over and over again and talking about,

[00:20:22] Hey, just we've had history of financial strife.

[00:20:25] I mean, it's not unusual that we, that there've been seasons where paying the bills was tough.

[00:20:32] And some months we're, we're choosing to pay these bills and the next month we'll choose

[00:20:35] to pay those bills.

[00:20:36] And part of it is just cause we've been living in this, we've been living paycheck to paycheck,

[00:20:40] like so many households, but we've been doing it as the household of God.

[00:20:43] And it's incredibly stressful to live that way.

[00:20:47] And so, um, so we were talking about that actively and we were also starting to talk about

[00:20:52] the other side of it and what's like dreaming about 200, what could $200,000 a year do in

[00:21:00] the service of God?

[00:21:01] Like what kind of impact could that make in our community?

[00:21:03] If we were able to release those resources from the bank, who's been good to us just for

[00:21:09] the record, in case anybody's listening, but, but also for the sake of the kingdom and

[00:21:14] what an impact that could make year over year over year and see that multiplied.

[00:21:19] And so, so the leadership got on board pretty quickly, um, to, to start addressing that problem.

[00:21:25] But, but then it came to the point where we couldn't, we couldn't not, it was, it was

[00:21:30] time.

[00:21:30] We had to do something about it.

[00:21:32] Um, and then the, the, the questions about, okay, so how do we, how do we move in a way

[00:21:39] that brings the gospel to bear in our, our community was, is a, is an ongoing and much tougher

[00:21:45] question.

[00:21:46] Um, especially, you know, church 170 years old that has, you know, deep roots, deep history,

[00:21:53] deep traditions, um, has this even relative, you know, 40 year hit, you know, ago history.

[00:22:01] So plenty of folks still really remember kind of what, what was the heyday in terms of the

[00:22:06] numerical, you know, sense of who we are.

[00:22:09] And, um, and so that's been continues to be ongoing, but part of it, it was just trying

[00:22:16] to raise the urgency in whatever way possible, you know, doing through preaching and bringing

[00:22:22] constantly trying to bring back in front of people like, Hey, here's the reality of how

[00:22:29] the world around us views us.

[00:22:32] Yeah.

[00:22:32] And, and just keep trying to bring that forward using statistics, using stories and trying

[00:22:38] to help people understand the urgency, trying to continue within the main line that we're

[00:22:45] a part of to reclaim kind of the, the reality that what people believe matters.

[00:22:52] The truth does matter that there are very real consequences for all of us, what we're going

[00:22:58] to choose to believe in not.

[00:23:00] And so if the world is going to live a life apart from Christ, then, then they're going

[00:23:05] to have immediate and eternal consequences and trying to bring that open to a normal part

[00:23:11] of our conversation and framework.

[00:23:14] Um, and then, and then I think it was also working through the leadership, you know, working

[00:23:20] with our elders in particular, trying to, to begin a conversation, changing the conversation

[00:23:27] that we're having at the leadership level.

[00:23:28] So when I walked through the doors, there were 30, um, elders sitting around that table

[00:23:34] with me.

[00:23:35] Yeah.

[00:23:37] And so that's a lot.

[00:23:39] That's a lot of elders.

[00:23:41] There's a lot of elders.

[00:23:42] Yeah.

[00:23:43] A lot of voices, a lot of opinions.

[00:23:45] That's right.

[00:23:46] Why?

[00:23:47] Some, all kinds of different degrees of maturity.

[00:23:49] Sure.

[00:23:50] That's right.

[00:23:51] Yeah.

[00:23:51] Yeah.

[00:23:51] Well, so there were 30 elders and then we had 60 deacons.

[00:23:55] Well, 60 out of 2,800.

[00:23:58] Okay.

[00:23:59] That's, I mean, it's still a lot, but you also have a lot of people to do the work of

[00:24:04] making those connections and doing the nominating and, and bringing people forward.

[00:24:08] Right.

[00:24:09] But when, you know, when we're way less than that, you know, some, sometimes I, I tell

[00:24:15] people that I probably hold the record for losing the most number of members in the shortest

[00:24:21] amount of time without a scandal.

[00:24:23] Cause we, cause in my second month we removed 1700 members.

[00:24:28] Yeah.

[00:24:29] Yeah.

[00:24:29] You got honest with yourself about where you actually are, which is, it allows you to make

[00:24:34] progress forward.

[00:24:34] And I love your story, Robby, because I think a lot of us can relate to being in a situation

[00:24:39] where it doesn't feel good to be honest in a, in this direction of where we're, we're

[00:24:46] taking something away or we're, there's a sense of we've lost or we're not what we once

[00:24:51] were, but unless you can get to that place, how do you move forward?

[00:24:54] So really I hear your story is a story of church identity and getting clear about who we are

[00:25:00] now, not who we used to be so that we can become who God wants us to be.

[00:25:04] And that's a powerful, I think a lot of pastors listening in, we've been on some version of

[00:25:09] that journey or maybe right.

[00:25:10] And I imagine I get, I just remember thinking back to some of the conversations over the

[00:25:15] years, like jumping from being an associate pastor into leading let's call 1700 names out

[00:25:23] of our member list.

[00:25:24] Right.

[00:25:25] That's a pretty huge thing to adjust to and to move into.

[00:25:31] And I imagine it just like some blindsided thing going on in there and people, you know,

[00:25:36] just not being ready for all of that.

[00:25:38] Let alone preaching every week, let alone leading session meetings, let alone trying to

[00:25:42] set vision and direction.

[00:25:43] So the fact that you're, you're still mostly smiling.

[00:25:49] We're a couple of years removed.

[00:25:51] Look how God is, man.

[00:25:54] They're coming to terms with you.

[00:25:55] It's the truth.

[00:25:56] So how did you guys go?

[00:25:57] What do you have now?

[00:25:58] Deacons and elders?

[00:25:59] What does that look like?

[00:26:00] So we now have 18 elders on our session.

[00:26:04] I pushed for 12.

[00:26:07] We ended at 18, which is just way better.

[00:26:12] We have, we now have 30 deacons and that that's a challenge because actually I'm grateful.

[00:26:22] Our deacon board is, is branching out and, and kind of taking, taking their calling and

[00:26:28] running with it in some really beautiful ways right now.

[00:26:32] And so, so only 30 for them feels a little slim at times because, because they're, see,

[00:26:39] they still remember, but, uh, but they're also having to move in different ways and lead

[00:26:43] the congregation.

[00:26:44] But, uh, but we've got, uh, so that's what we have in terms of our officers right now.

[00:26:51] Um, and, and it, it, it just allows us to have a conversation when you've got 30 around

[00:26:56] the table.

[00:26:56] You're right.

[00:26:57] There's a lot of opinions.

[00:26:58] It's just not a very functional conversation.

[00:27:01] You know, even 80, 18 is tough.

[00:27:04] Um, and so because group dynamics are what they are, we don't always get all the voices

[00:27:11] to really weigh in.

[00:27:14] Um, though that's part of what we try to do is make space so that, you know, those folks

[00:27:19] who, you know, you know who they are in your room that just, they sit back a lot.

[00:27:23] Doesn't mean they're not engaged.

[00:27:25] It just means that they're not really prone to vocalize their thoughts.

[00:27:29] And so really trying to tease out, Hey, if you have something, we need you, we need your

[00:27:33] voice on this.

[00:27:34] And so, um, but, um, yeah.

[00:27:40] What were some of the, you know, as you are, I guess, I mean, I guess I've, I have two questions

[00:27:46] here.

[00:27:46] One is pastors deal with overwhelm all the time.

[00:27:50] And part, one of the reasons is we all, we feel like there's so many targets that we

[00:27:56] could aim at.

[00:27:59] We don't know where to start.

[00:28:00] We're a little bit paralyzed by that.

[00:28:03] How did you, was it just sort of intuitive or did you kind of have a little bit of a method

[00:28:10] as to what targets you focused on when?

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:14] Great question.

[00:28:15] So I think I struggle with that exact thing even right now.

[00:28:19] Like I just, it's an active live conversation in my life at home.

[00:28:23] And here is, I'm probably still trying to do all the things all at once.

[00:28:28] Hmm.

[00:28:29] And, and so that, and so it does lead to exhaustion and overwhelm.

[00:28:35] And frankly, it doesn't get the traction that, that we need.

[00:28:40] And so, um, I think, so I think at different times over the years, it's come and gone better

[00:28:46] is the truth.

[00:28:47] And so, um, one of the things I realized later now that I've looked back is I didn't shift

[00:28:56] nearly enough of my focus to getting clear on the identity questions soon enough.

[00:29:03] Like I was aware of the questions, but I didn't necessarily know how to get traction

[00:29:11] on it and didn't, so didn't really focus on it.

[00:29:17] And, and some of it was, I think taking some of the old, maybe it's old advice at this point

[00:29:23] and just saying, don't, don't change too much too soon, you know, just kind of get settled

[00:29:27] in.

[00:29:27] I think in retrospect, in the first year, I would have dug deep into getting clear on,

[00:29:35] on our mission, getting clear on who we are, getting clear on what are we going to be about?

[00:29:39] How are we going to define success?

[00:29:41] And would have from the get-go made that my focus.

[00:29:44] And, and it just wasn't, you know, my focus at that time, I think because of the learning

[00:29:48] curve, because of whatever, I just was not, I knew I needed to do it.

[00:29:51] It was kind of in the back of my head, but it was like, okay, I'm just running with this

[00:29:56] and just trying to, to be here in many ways and survive probably.

[00:30:02] But, but I think that is where it, when I did finally realize, okay, that's what needed

[00:30:09] to happen.

[00:30:09] That focus really, really helped.

[00:30:12] And so the, the shift, the shifts for us that I think have made the most impact were when

[00:30:18] we did really dig in deep and we spun off a team to really work on, okay, what are we about?

[00:30:27] What are, what are our values?

[00:30:30] What are we, how are we going to define success?

[00:30:32] Like, I think that's one of the things I'm most pleased about where we've come.

[00:30:37] Um, and, and had, we had some help along the way and some resources that we were using, but, you know,

[00:30:46] what, where I'm happy about where we've come is that, okay, we're clear on what our mission is,

[00:30:51] you know, we, and we've articulated that as connecting people to full life in Jesus Christ.

[00:30:56] We're, we're clear on our values that can make us unique compared to the church down the road.

[00:31:03] And, you know, just, and kind of leaning into that and saying, yep, this is who we're going

[00:31:06] to be, which means we're not, we don't have to be that.

[00:31:09] Um, and we, we've identified strategy of how, you know, where the ways we hope people will

[00:31:15] begin to move and believing if they'll do these things, they're going to, they're going

[00:31:19] to believe they should.

[00:31:21] But I think that maybe the, the most important thing to me is that we've, we're defining

[00:31:25] what success is, but it's still really hard to pin down.

[00:31:28] So we have, we've got this series of questions that are discipleship questions instead of numerical

[00:31:34] questions.

[00:31:35] Yeah.

[00:31:36] More qualitative metrics.

[00:31:38] Much more qualitative metrics.

[00:31:40] Exactly.

[00:31:40] More connected to God.

[00:31:42] Are you, are you more connected?

[00:31:43] I think those are good metrics.

[00:31:45] And what I hear in the midst of this, I think is really helpful.

[00:31:48] And I think my experience too, and I think for you, Jason, is when you're clear on your identity,

[00:31:54] your vision, mission values, you have a decision-making framework.

[00:31:57] Now you can run and filter everything through that and go, is this us?

[00:32:01] Is this the right direction?

[00:32:02] Without that, you're just sort of fishing in the dark and hoping and throwing stuff on

[00:32:07] the wall and hoping it sticks.

[00:32:08] So, so it sounds like you had gotten to that earlier.

[00:32:12] Maybe it would have cost you your job though.

[00:32:14] You never know, but you were saying maybe started that earlier would be a little.

[00:32:19] Maybe I think that we, we were, we finally did eventually, um, get to a place where,

[00:32:26] where we, uh, we got the, the leadership in a, in a space where they were reflective on,

[00:32:34] on where are we, you know, specifically thinking about kind of the life cycle of, uh, of, uh, of a,

[00:32:40] of a congregation and really began to give them language and tools to be able to articulate,

[00:32:50] even think about, evaluate, articulate, um, where are we?

[00:32:55] And there was real agreement around where we, where we are.

[00:33:00] It was like, yeah, we, we're definitely not like, we don't feel like it's crisis,

[00:33:04] but there was this awareness that we we've come, come past a peak and we're in, we're in some decline,

[00:33:12] but we don't necessarily know how to get out of it.

[00:33:14] And so it was like one day, when they self-identified, it wasn't, I didn't have to tell them kind of,

[00:33:20] we walked through a process and a journey where they identified and said, yeah, this is where we are.

[00:33:25] And it's like, okay, well, if that's where we are, the way to get back on the growth side of the,

[00:33:31] the life cycle curve is this journey of reevaluation, re-envisioning, you know,

[00:33:37] and reinvigorating ourselves around clarity on, on these purposes.

[00:33:41] And so, so we were set up then to step into that at that point.

[00:33:47] Um, and then to, to, like you said, Jesse, the, the, we, we call it our mission framework.

[00:33:52] It's exactly right.

[00:33:53] It's a framework that helps us evaluate.

[00:33:55] Okay.

[00:33:56] What should we be focused on are the things that we're teaching.

[00:33:59] Yes, it's all the, the Bible's all good.

[00:34:02] Like let's teach it all right.

[00:34:04] The gospel is beautiful.

[00:34:05] And you know, we're one of our values is to make sure we're gospel centered and everything we're doing,

[00:34:11] but what do we teach in a way that we expect fruitful outcomes?

[00:34:17] And so having, having the, those discipleship definitions of this is what success like looks like.

[00:34:24] It looks like people who are growing in these very clear ways really helps us create, you know, curriculum.

[00:34:31] It helps us create sermon series.

[00:34:34] It helps us collaborate across our commissions in ways that we had not really collaborated before.

[00:34:41] You know, we've got, we had clock cross collaboration between, you know, our, our mission deacon, our mission team, our deacons and our student ministries last fall, last summer and fall that spun off these experiments that happened.

[00:34:55] And, you know, just, it gives, it gives us actually this incredible opportunity for creativity.

[00:35:01] Right.

[00:35:02] I think sometimes we think of this framework as like this restrictive thing, which it is because it helps us say no.

[00:35:08] Yeah.

[00:35:08] Yeah.

[00:35:09] But it's also this generative thing because we can look and we can say, okay, where, okay.

[00:35:14] It doesn't feel like the fruit that we're getting from our ministry is happening in these particular areas that we believe where success should be.

[00:35:21] It's like, okay, so then, okay, what can we do about it?

[00:35:25] And so we've been trying to put in actually recently have been working with our leadership on some, some simple processes of how do we take that framework?

[00:35:33] How do we do some good observation and evaluation around what we're doing?

[00:35:39] Think about why it may not be happening in the ways that we believe it should.

[00:35:44] Then allowing us to creatively address the barriers to the fruit that we're hoping to see in people's lives.

[00:35:51] And the amount of creativity that can come out of a process like that is, has been exciting.

[00:35:57] And it's part of where I hope we're continuing to go.

[00:36:00] Well, as, as you know, Robbie, I have somewhat of a mole in your church, Pastor Teresa, right?

[00:36:07] So when, when she, you know, she is, she speaks very highly of your leadership.

[00:36:14] And certainly what I've seen, even just from the outside of, of your church is a church that continues to trend healthier and healthier and healthier.

[00:36:24] And so clearly the learning curve, you figured out as far as leadership goes.

[00:36:30] Now, I, I, I know none of us would say we haven't figured out, but certainly your leadership's been very effective.

[00:36:40] I wonder though, there was, and we're not even going to get into all the other challenges that I know you faced.

[00:36:49] You know, my goodness, you had a staff member pass away and almost in the middle of a worship service.

[00:36:55] Well, it was, you know, it was in the middle.

[00:36:57] I mean, all sorts of issues.

[00:37:00] And I want to know, and I think this is helpful for pastors to hear there's, there is every reason you maybe wouldn't have seen things come together because maybe you would have bailed in, in those tough moments.

[00:37:17] What helped you stay the course?

[00:37:20] That's a great question.

[00:37:25] I think part of, part of it is certainly almost feels cliche to say, but, but that sense of call that in, in some ways I've just known that kind of that, that work of kind of of repurposing and re-identity and, and revitalization is part of what is both really,

[00:37:53] really challenging and really exciting.

[00:37:55] And so for me that it's, some of it's kind of core that way.

[00:37:59] I think it connects with, with the verse that I hold onto personally, you know, Philippians one, six, you know, being confident of this, that you began a good work and you will, will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus.

[00:38:11] Just that I hold onto that for myself.

[00:38:13] Cause I'm just so aware of me being a work in progress and the church being a work in progress and Jesus promising that he will build his church and that it's really not.

[00:38:23] Up to me.

[00:38:24] But, but a lot of that, you know, in those darker moments is a conscious choice.

[00:38:30] You know, there's, I don't even, it's funny.

[00:38:34] I think about that.

[00:38:34] There's a song that, that we sing in our contemporary worship.

[00:38:38] There's a line in it.

[00:38:39] I couldn't tell you what the actual whole song is, but I think about this line regularly.

[00:38:44] And it says, I preach the gospel to myself that I am not a man condemned.

[00:38:51] And part of that's been, I've had to just continue to preach the gospel to myself and realize, okay, my success or failure doesn't define me.

[00:39:00] Whether the church makes a turn or not is actually, yes, I'll be accountable for the way I've moved and lived and led because God has given me this, this post and I steward what he gives.

[00:39:14] And yet success is ultimately not determined by me.

[00:39:19] And I have to constantly bring myself back to that place of that both humbles and frees me, you know, and allows me to, to once again, move into that space in a way that I can be rejuvenated to say, okay, that same, God's going to continue the work.

[00:39:39] And I'm just going to try to continue to be faithful.

[00:39:44] You know, I, more on a very practical level.

[00:39:48] I mean, certainly it's, it's been, you know, my wife has been an amazing, she's an amazing partner.

[00:39:55] Um, and so I'm so grateful for her and what she does to, to support me and the family and, and the ministry calling that I have.

[00:40:04] And, um, and then have to have leaned on friends, have, have needed friends deeply in, in especially those most challenging times to, you know, be able to confess and acknowledge my failures.

[00:40:18] And then have them look back at me and say, yep.

[00:40:21] And you know what?

[00:40:23] We still love you.

[00:40:24] God still loves you.

[00:40:26] And now it's time to, to stop having a pity party and move forward.

[00:40:33] So.

[00:40:33] I love it.

[00:40:35] That's, uh, that's powerful.

[00:40:37] And I don't know, I'm just resonating with pretty much every word you're saying, you know, just, um, you know, what gets you through, what keeps you holding on.

[00:40:46] And the sense of God's call, his bigness, my smallness, um, being reminded that faithfulness is the metric God cares about most.

[00:40:57] I mean, all of that.

[00:40:59] Um, well said my friend.

[00:41:01] Hey, listen, before we let you go, I want to just hear a little bit.

[00:41:04] What are you excited about right now?

[00:41:06] Right now at Tom's river, what are you excited about?

[00:41:09] So I, I have to acknowledge that.

[00:41:12] So we started with one of, one of those very big challenges was this, this debt that we have been carrying for so long.

[00:41:20] And when we started our campaign, when I got here, it was 2.6 million.

[00:41:24] We started our campaign in, uh, November of 2019.

[00:41:29] It was 2.3 million and we are going to be paid off in November completely.

[00:41:35] Man.

[00:41:36] And so God has been so good, so generous.

[00:41:39] The people have been amazing and have responded with faithfulness.

[00:41:44] It's, it's been a very challenging road, obviously.

[00:41:48] Um, but there, it's been awesome to see the trust that's grown in the congregation and in the leadership to see the excitement about,

[00:41:57] Hey, yeah, it's not sexy to pay off debt.

[00:42:01] It's really, really not.

[00:42:02] That's a tough one to get excited about, right?

[00:42:04] It is.

[00:42:05] It is.

[00:42:06] But we've been able, like people have really just grabbed on and are excited to be a part of what God's doing there.

[00:42:12] And so that's going to release a bunch of resources.

[00:42:18] We've called it our freedom campaign because that's what it feels like that we're going to be stepping into that.

[00:42:23] And so it was 2.3 million dollars of mortgage debt and over $300,000 of non-mortgage debt in the last five years.

[00:42:33] And, um, so, so we're excited about that and where that's going to take us.

[00:42:38] And it's letting us really dream about what could happen next.

[00:42:42] Cause part of this generative creativity is that we're in a space of potential experimentation.

[00:42:48] That we're starting to be able to seriously look around and go, okay, what's, what is happening in our community, in our context,

[00:42:56] where, because we have freedom, we get to, we get to move differently.

[00:43:01] Yeah.

[00:43:02] You're playing offense, not defense, right?

[00:43:04] Way different, way different, right?

[00:43:06] Yeah.

[00:43:06] Way different.

[00:43:07] And so, you know, and so it gives us this latitude to go, okay, we don't have to be terrified that our bills won't be paid.

[00:43:16] And now we can also, we don't have to be terrified if we throw some spaghetti at the wall and it doesn't stick.

[00:43:23] Yeah.

[00:43:24] Like we can start to experiment and know that it's, it's not life or death, whether it succeeds and we can approach it in a way of what can we learn?

[00:43:33] So the next time we can do it differently to make an impact for the kingdom.

[00:43:37] So those are some of the things I'm excited about.

[00:43:39] I love it, man.

[00:43:40] I love it.

[00:43:41] It's, it's exciting.

[00:43:42] And, um, well, Robbie, I just, I appreciate your time.

[00:43:46] I appreciate you, your friendship.

[00:43:48] Um, you know, Robbie has been there for me more than once, uh, going through some tough times.

[00:43:54] So, uh, we're definitely doing another lunch.

[00:43:56] That sounds good.

[00:43:57] And it's very, very much mutual.

[00:43:59] So we're, you know, I know these are stories from the trenches and we're, we've been in the trenches together, actually all three of us.

[00:44:05] And so, so many others that, that have partners in it, I know they value them too.

[00:44:09] So thank you guys.

[00:44:11] Yeah.

[00:44:12] Jason, Robbie's the best.

[00:44:15] It's so much fun.

[00:44:15] Robbie, thank you.

[00:44:16] If you're still listening back to yourself, thanks for coming on.

[00:44:19] We've enjoyed the conversation and have followed your journey at Tom's river and watched your leadership and admire you.

[00:44:25] And thanks for inspiring us to keep going, leading change, leading revitalization.

[00:44:29] It's a long, long process.

[00:44:31] And so we heard lots of elements of the story, but I think what kind of jumped out at me, and this is something you talk quite a lot about Jason is how leaders define reality or help name reality.

[00:44:42] And what I heard Robbie saying is that he had to work with his elders to help them to be the ones to name the reality of who they were now, not who they used to be.

[00:44:52] And man, can you imagine taking 1700 people off the roles and what that would do to a church's identity?

[00:44:58] So pretty cool.

[00:44:59] But talk about that for a minute.

[00:45:01] What do you mean when you say leaders define reality or help name reality?

[00:45:04] Yeah, that's a Max Dupree quote.

[00:45:06] And he says, you know, a leader's job is to define reality.

[00:45:09] And that is, it's so hard for organizations, and I think especially churches, because there's so much nostalgia and emotion and people who are very logical people come into the church and they make illogical decisions because there's so much emotion invested in it.

[00:45:27] And I think one of the gifts as a leader that you give your church is helping them to see who are we really?

[00:45:34] Who's the church really?

[00:45:36] Because you can't address what you can't acknowledge.

[00:45:39] Yeah.

[00:45:40] Once you can acknowledge who you are, then you can move forward.

[00:45:44] It's kind of like getting healthy.

[00:45:46] Yeah.

[00:45:47] I could decide, hey, you know, I need to lose some weight.

[00:45:49] I need to gain some muscle.

[00:45:50] And I could pick 15, 25 different programs.

[00:45:54] They might all work, but I got to figure out which one am I going to go with and why is that going to work for me?

[00:46:00] And then once I do, clarity happens.

[00:46:01] So the other thing I heard him say, which is something Dr. John Cotter says, is the first step to leading change is creating urgency.

[00:46:10] You heard him talking about developing a sense of urgency with his people.

[00:46:15] And again, that's a lot of pastors think you have to roll in with the vision.

[00:46:20] And that's actually not true.

[00:46:22] It's much better to lead the church in a vision process, but they only care to do that when they feel a sense of urgency about it.

[00:46:31] And I love it that he went back into their story, back into their next-gen focus, back into their history to give an urgency for the current moment.

[00:46:39] And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

[00:46:41] And that's one of the unique things available to us as if you're leading in a longer standing church or a more established church or a denominational church, probably been around for a while.

[00:46:51] You have a history to draw from.

[00:46:53] If there was a high moment somewhere in the past, what was it about that DNA that you can bring forward to create urgency now for the mission today?

[00:47:01] So, yeah, I resonated with that.

[00:47:03] So many good things there.

[00:47:04] And navigating through that kind of debt.

[00:47:07] I mean, just debt service is a tough mission.

[00:47:09] So the fact that they're coming out the other side with lots of opportunities and excitement, that's such a cool thing.

[00:47:15] And that's the second story we've had in this series of kind of that crushing debt.

[00:47:22] And maybe that's a reminder to all of us.

[00:47:24] Like, just really be careful taking on new debt as the church.

[00:47:28] Right.

[00:47:28] Because who wants, as a guest, to come into a church and hear our mission right now is to pay off somebody else's dreams from 15 years ago?

[00:47:35] I think as much as that's part of the reality sometimes, that's a hard thing to get people excited about.

[00:47:42] So, yeah, lots to think about there.

[00:47:44] And always fun just to hear more stories from the trenches.

[00:47:48] Jason, people are in there slogging it out, working for the sake of the gospel.

[00:47:51] In our communities around the U.S. and around the world.

[00:47:55] We're grateful for all those pastors and church leaders that are going for it.

[00:47:58] Keep swinging.

[00:47:59] We are.

[00:48:00] Thanks so much, everyone, for what you do.

[00:48:02] Thanks for listening, being part of the Reclaim Leader family.

[00:48:06] And, man, until next time, this is just a reminder.

[00:48:09] Ministry is hard.

[00:48:10] It is so much better when we do it together.

[00:48:13] Take care, everyone.