[00:00:00] Yeah, it's a tough one to get right because when things are going okay, we don't really think about the urgency of having some of these healthy things in place. And then when things start to pile up and a stressful season of ministry and all that, all of a sudden those handrails or those things that will really support our flourishing and health aren't there. And maybe we didn't notice it before because they weren't as crucially urgent.
[00:00:27] As we near the end of Pastor Appreciation Month, we distill what we learn from our pastor interviews. While we walk away from October feeling very encouraged, we also discovered seven important truths from the trenches. We share those with you and give away our free month of coaching. That's all today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:53] Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker.
[00:00:56] And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:57] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact.
[00:01:03] We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that worked for us, and some that didn't.
[00:01:08] Best practices and practical tools for church leadership.
[00:01:11] The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.
[00:01:18] Hey everyone, we are back. This is another edition of The Reclaimed Leader talking about pastor appreciation.
[00:01:25] I hope pastors, you feel the love, you feel appreciated that your churches did something like get you a sweet sword of the spirit letter opener.
[00:01:35] Or a-
[00:01:35] I could send you mine if they didn't. I've had it for plenty of years.
[00:01:40] No, man. This has been great, Jesse. It's been so great talking with pastors. It's really our favorite thing to do.
[00:01:49] And hearing the stories of our guests over the last few weeks have just been so encouraging.
[00:01:54] But also I felt like, I don't know, I felt like I was noticing patterns, was noticing things in my own church and leadership.
[00:02:03] I just think it's so helpful. We talk about it all the time, but I really mean it.
[00:02:07] When we hear each other's stories, something is so helpful about that. I don't know. How do you feel about these?
[00:02:13] I agree with you. I think we go, oh, I'm not the only one. You know, there's nothing new under the sun. Every situation is unique to its own context and circumstance.
[00:02:22] But there's, from a principle standpoint or a shared experience standpoint, there's a lot of commonality there that to me is reassuring and helpful because I go, okay, well, somebody else has navigated this before.
[00:02:35] Somebody will navigate it after. I'm in the middle of this or whatever. And so we can kind of identify with each other in hopefully a helpful way that goes, okay, here's some things I can learn, but also I'm not the only one.
[00:02:46] Maybe that's the main takeaway is we're in this together, you know, even in our own, each unique circumstance.
[00:02:53] Yeah. And to show our appreciation to you, we've been giving stuff away, which has been kind of fun. We gave a few books away and you got to wait to the end of the episode.
[00:03:02] We're going to tease it here where somebody is going to win one month of free coaching. So that's, I don't know. I'm excited to give it away.
[00:03:11] Put it on two and a half speed and you'll get there quicker.
[00:03:13] That's right. That's exactly right. Hey, listen, at least we don't do a whole bunch of ads in the middle. I listen to podcasts and I'm just like constantly having to fast forward.
[00:03:22] Anyway, anyone that wants to sponsor us, ignore what I just said.
[00:03:27] So we'll happily put an ad.
[00:03:29] I wonder why we don't have these.
[00:03:30] What are you doing?
[00:03:31] What's going on?
[00:03:32] Yeah. Um, also, uh, if you do us a favor and maybe you could think of a pastor who could really use a lift, you know, some encouragement or maybe who would get a lot out of one of the pastor interviews we had this month.
[00:03:46] Would you share the episode with them? Share the podcast with them?
[00:03:50] And if you can, if you'd be so inclined, leave us a review on your platform of choice.
[00:03:54] It helps us to be found, helps us to continue to reach more and more pastors, which is our heart.
[00:04:01] All right. Well, after all these conversations that, like I said, I was noticing patterns in them and thinking, what are some kind of common threads to pull on a little bit?
[00:04:12] And I don't know if I was doing it selfishly, but I'm just sort of like, what can I learn or distill from these conversations?
[00:04:20] And there's probably more, but landed on about seven things.
[00:04:24] Probably could have picked a couple other ones, but these were the ones that were top of mind.
[00:04:28] They're not necessarily in any order, but I thought we just kind of go through them and have a conversation about it and see if it's helpful.
[00:04:35] The first one that came up a couple of times, actually, I think it was in every conversation, is about self-care.
[00:04:45] Self-care is more urgent than you realize.
[00:04:51] And I was told this in seminary to which I sort of half listened because it's one of those.
[00:05:00] Yeah, I know. I know.
[00:05:02] You know, it's like talking to my teenager about taking out the trash.
[00:05:04] Yeah.
[00:05:05] Yeah, I know.
[00:05:07] I know, Dad.
[00:05:08] I know.
[00:05:08] I felt like that was my attitude.
[00:05:11] It was terrible.
[00:05:11] That was my attitude in seminary, I think because it feels like it's intuitive.
[00:05:17] I do know.
[00:05:18] I know that having a dedicated, quiet time with God is good.
[00:05:23] I know that exercising my body is good.
[00:05:27] I know taking a break is good.
[00:05:30] Having hobbies is good.
[00:05:31] All that stuff.
[00:05:32] But it's much different actually doing it.
[00:05:35] Yeah.
[00:05:35] And this is something that keeps coming up for pastors.
[00:05:39] So Barna this year released an updated version of their state of pastors, which they did back in 2008, 17, 18.
[00:05:47] And they were just kind of up periscope on where are we at pastors with everything.
[00:05:52] They did like a smaller version right at the pandemic.
[00:05:56] And they were so startled by how bad the numbers were about how pastors are feeling.
[00:06:01] I think they kind of scrapped it and be like, let's try this in a couple of years and see where they're at.
[00:06:06] And sure enough, the numbers were better as far as how pastors were.
[00:06:10] But listen to these stats.
[00:06:12] One third, 33% of pastors, Protestant senior pastors have contemplated quitting in the last year.
[00:06:22] And they were celebrating that it was a little less than it was in the pandemic, but still a third.
[00:06:28] Yeah.
[00:06:29] A third.
[00:06:30] 41% are not feeling good about their mental well-being.
[00:06:35] 41% of all pastors.
[00:06:37] 52% said they're not feeling good about their physical well-being.
[00:06:41] So over half feel like they're not physically well.
[00:06:47] And then 52% say that they have true friends.
[00:06:53] 48% feel like they don't have true friendships.
[00:06:58] Man, that is not good.
[00:07:00] I feel like that is so alarming.
[00:07:03] And by the way, I consider myself in that camp as far as like, I'm not caring for myself or I don't have all those things dialed in the way that I'd like.
[00:07:12] And it always has an impact.
[00:07:14] Yeah.
[00:07:15] It's a tough one to get right because when things are going okay, we don't really think about the urgency of having some of these healthy things in place.
[00:07:23] And then when things start to pile up and a stressful season of ministry and all that, and all of a sudden those handrails or those things that will really support our flourishing and health aren't there.
[00:07:36] And maybe we didn't notice it before because they weren't as crucially urgent, but they were so important.
[00:07:42] And so this is one where I have to continue to come back to and be reminded in our conversations.
[00:07:48] As much as we did eye roll in seminary about some of this, because we weren't in the heat of ministry yet, that the time to build healthy things into our lives is during the seasons where things are going okay.
[00:08:00] And that will give us what we need to be able to make it through the more stressful or trying times.
[00:08:06] And so anyway, I mean, I don't know that we need to beat this one to death too much other than to say just if this is a season where things are okay for you, this is a time to start building some of that scaffolding or that support in because there will be a time when it's not.
[00:08:23] And if you're in the crucible of a really hard season, this is that time to reach out to find a friend or to do one thing that kind of gives you a lifeline in the midst of the intensity of everything.
[00:08:34] Yeah.
[00:08:35] Yeah.
[00:08:35] You know, physical, emotional, spiritual wellbeing are typically afterthoughts.
[00:08:40] Yeah.
[00:08:41] And it could be as simple as just go for a walk, Jason, like just get up from your chair.
[00:08:47] It's a mare.
[00:08:47] Change your course for a minute.
[00:08:50] Give yourself some space to think differently and to get moving.
[00:08:53] All those little things add up, but might just be one step or one thing to do that.
[00:08:58] Yeah.
[00:08:59] Yeah.
[00:08:59] In our stories, we heard a lot of regret that afterthoughts should have been forethoughts.
[00:09:05] Right.
[00:09:05] Right.
[00:09:06] And usually learn that too late.
[00:09:09] And just sharing a little just personally what I'm doing, I have some holes that I need to figure out for my self-care, but there's some things that are going well.
[00:09:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:09:47] Going to the gym.
[00:09:48] I was like, what do I love to do?
[00:09:50] And I think probably the best thing that doctor told me was said, don't worry about cardio.
[00:09:54] Like you need to worry about having enough muscle, especially, you know, in the next 20 years, you want to make sure you're doing a lot of resistance training.
[00:10:04] I'm like, I love weightlifting.
[00:10:05] I'm like, let's do it.
[00:10:06] You know?
[00:10:06] Yeah.
[00:10:07] And it's been a really great year physically.
[00:10:12] I, where I, and by the way, I just feel completely different. It's amazing what that does. And I know
[00:10:17] it in my head, but it's different than, um, when I have the choice between sitting on my butt and
[00:10:22] actually getting up and going to the gym. But I found that now I look forward to going to the gym.
[00:10:29] I hate to miss it because it's so much fun. You know, it's like, um, we poke fun in all of our,
[00:10:33] all the CrossFitters, but you know, the reason why they're so addicted to it is, is just because
[00:10:39] they've gotten to a point where they love how it feels. Yeah. Uh, but here's where I need some work,
[00:10:44] Jesse. I definitely need work on cultivating things to do with friends who aren't connected
[00:10:53] with the church. And I need to figure out how to work on some hobbies. There are things I like to do
[00:10:59] that I don't make time to do. And I, that's really missing for me because I feel
[00:11:05] I need some kind of recharging or like fun things that just aren't church related at all. And I'm,
[00:11:13] cause what's happened is I've turned a lot of my hobbies into sort of what I do at church or what
[00:11:18] I do in ministry and it all kind of bleeds together. So anyway, um, I don't know, what are some things
[00:11:23] that, that kind of you work on in that area? Yeah. I mean, I think the thing is don't put too
[00:11:28] much pressure on yourself, find one or two things and start doing some things. And I think the hardest
[00:11:32] thing is to get started, to get moving when you notice you're stuck. But, uh, for me, I'm, you know,
[00:11:38] if you're watching on, on, uh, online, I've got my Washington sweatshirt on. I'm, I love going to
[00:11:43] college football games. I do it with my kids or my buddies and it's just something totally different.
[00:11:48] Um, I enjoy working with my hands. I do projects around the house. It's tangible. There's a finished
[00:11:53] product at the end. So just kind of finding some little things that you can build into the rhythm
[00:11:58] of your life that you find enjoyable. I have nothing to do with your identity as a pastor,
[00:12:02] or at least not fully about that. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think it's unique for everybody and,
[00:12:08] uh, you got to find those things, um, and, and, and lean into them. I think the challenge can be
[00:12:14] that it feels optional. Yeah. It was optional. It feels like it would be nice to have if I could,
[00:12:20] but I think we have to change our mindset. It let's not see it as optional. Let's look at it as
[00:12:26] a crucial part of our overall wellbeing for the sake of the ministry that God has called us to. So
[00:12:31] maybe change your mindset. It's not optional. It's necessary for the good that God wants to do
[00:12:36] in and through you. Yeah. All right. So we spent a little more time on that one. The rest will be a
[00:12:40] little bit shorter, but I wanted to make sure to hit on that because it kept coming up and,
[00:12:46] and I was definitely feeling like, yeah, pay attention to that. Okay. Uh, the second one is
[00:12:53] leadership pacing is critical for progress. Yeah. Pacing is, is just as important as anything else
[00:13:00] that you do. You know, we all want to be like the old cartoon character, Yosemite Sam, by the way,
[00:13:06] I got to change my references. I've noticed in preaching, I've hit a couple that if, if you're
[00:13:11] born, you know, after 2000, I don't know if you're really, I become that guys. I've got to watch it.
[00:13:18] Anyway, Yosemite Sam comes in the room, guns a blazing. You know, I feel like we all want to do
[00:13:26] that when we're going to lead change and it's usually pretty catastrophic. Um, and I don't know why I was
[00:13:35] stuck on old cartoons, but every time they would do like the tortoise and the hare, you know,
[00:13:40] it's, it's, that's what leadership pacing is. It's an intentional slow burn. You go slow,
[00:13:48] you build consensus, you gain momentum or just thinking about like sports, thinking about like,
[00:13:54] uh, sports teams, teams take time to develop pre-season. Isn't the finished product. It needs
[00:13:59] time. You need to work together for a while. This is leadership pacing. So you just want to make sure
[00:14:05] that you're not biting off too much at any given time. It always goes slower than you want it to,
[00:14:12] but that actually is a good thing. Yeah. Unless it turns into an excuse. So like,
[00:14:19] oh yeah, we're going to take more time because we're nervous about making a decision. That's another
[00:14:22] thing, but usually you go slower than you want to, and it's going to help get you the progress that
[00:14:30] you're looking for. Yeah. And I think there's maybe in that honeymoon period of newness, there may be
[00:14:35] some immediate low hanging fruit changes or quick wins that can start to move you in a direction. So
[00:14:41] it's not that you can't do anything. It's just, you're thinking about moving a culture. It's going
[00:14:45] to take time to do that. It's going to take a series of decisions over time and shared experience of
[00:14:50] building trust. Like you said, to do that. And remember when we're introducing change, and this is a
[00:14:55] constant thing for you and me and our experience too, is that change is experienced as loss, even
[00:15:00] good change. We're losing where we were and going somewhere new. And so pacing change is allowing
[00:15:07] people to experience loss at a pace they can handle. And so we, if you think about it that way, it's like,
[00:15:13] how much can we take away? Even if it's going to move us in a good direction, we got to be careful
[00:15:19] about that, how we, how we do that so that we're not just flooding people with an extreme sense of
[00:15:24] loss that then causes them to lose trust and not come along for the journey. And so anyway, there's
[00:15:30] a lot that we've talked about over the years related to that, but I'm glad that this theme came up
[00:15:35] because it really is crucial. And if you're newer in leadership and you see all the things that need
[00:15:39] to change because leaders, we see the problems, we see what needs to be fixed. Just be mindful of,
[00:15:46] of, of, of how you're going to lay that out and, and the timeframe you're going to give yourself.
[00:15:52] And maybe what I hear you saying, Jason, is maybe expand that timeframe, have a little bit longer
[00:15:58] view so that you and, and your church and your organization are set up for success.
[00:16:02] Yeah. All right. Number three, if there's pain, people will make a change, but if they don't feel
[00:16:10] any pain, they're probably not going to status quo is just too powerful. So what do I mean?
[00:16:15] If there's pain, it's about developing a sense of urgency. And we heard that a couple of times,
[00:16:19] right? Yeah. Developing a sense of urgency is what helps push status quo forward. And what we
[00:16:26] heard that I think is great. I think it's the right answer is pastors. We need to educate and inspire
[00:16:33] our congregations, understanding that developing a sense of urgency is the number one thing we need
[00:16:38] to be doing before we get to vision. And before we get to the actual strategy, it's why does this
[00:16:44] problem matter? And why do we have to fix it right now? And until they feel, until the pain of not
[00:16:49] doing anything is worse than the pain of change, they won't actually move forward.
[00:16:54] Yeah. Just think back to those five Bibles up on the altar.
[00:16:56] Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that story.
[00:16:58] Yeah. Just, you're talking about putting the pain point, the urgency front and center for focus.
[00:17:03] What a powerful image of, of creating a sense of urgency around a real issue that we do want to
[00:17:10] inflict some discomfort to move us forward. And of course we got to be wise about that. But I thought
[00:17:15] that was a really powerful example of exactly what you're talking about, creating a sense of urgency
[00:17:20] around who we are and where we're going. You know, who does that really well is, uh, orange,
[00:17:26] orange, uh, who does the Sunday school curriculum. They have a video and it's like marbles.
[00:17:33] And they talk about, there's only so many Sundays you have your kid before they go off to college.
[00:17:38] First of all, it makes everybody cry every time, including me. So I don't look at it,
[00:17:43] but I mean, it's so painful. You feel the urgency, like, Oh my gosh, immediate sense of urgency.
[00:17:50] Yeah. Yeah. And that pushes you into action. So how can you develop urgency? How can you talk about
[00:17:56] this in such a way that, that it moves, moves the needle, moves the status quo?
[00:18:02] Yeah, exactly. Right. Um, and I think that's, that's really in a healthy way shouldn't be
[00:18:07] manipulative, but in a healthy way can really move us out of a rut and get us moving again and going,
[00:18:13] you know what, we do care and this does matter. And we should take some steps here to, to do whatever
[00:18:18] it is that God's put in front of us to do. So, I mean, I think that that came through in each of
[00:18:22] our conversations. And sometimes that urgency is not shared until we really cast a vision around it.
[00:18:28] And so thinking about how do you artfully and wisely present that to your folks to,
[00:18:33] to get that pain point through so that we can move together.
[00:18:36] Yeah. And most of this stuff, you don't have to invent the pain point. It's painful. I mean,
[00:18:41] just look at the state of our culture and people who don't know Jesus. I mean, there's, there's plenty,
[00:18:46] it's a target rich environment, right? To build some urgency around. Uh, this is, this might be my
[00:18:53] personal favorite because I've, I've made this a mantra in my ministry. It's the one thing I
[00:18:58] try to tackle whenever I can. And it's this, and we heard this in the conversations,
[00:19:04] basically refuse to reward dysfunctional behavior. Don't do it. What do I mean?
[00:19:12] There are a lot of ways that this shows up in churches and it's basically, you have certain
[00:19:19] power brokers in the church, right? You get people, you have families, you have longtime volunteers,
[00:19:23] big personalities. You end up with people who amass way too much influence and kind of above
[00:19:32] whatever their volunteer position or position in the church is to the point where they are usually
[00:19:41] creating a dam that's stopping the flow of forward movement because everything has to go through
[00:19:48] them. And if they don't approve or maybe it's so, Oh, he, he or she is mad at this. And you know,
[00:19:53] we got to, and they end up holding the mission of God hostage by their dysfunctional behavior.
[00:20:01] And I got to a point early on in my ministry where I was burned a couple of times with that. And I said,
[00:20:07] I am not playing this another minute. Yeah. And, and maybe that was more of like the pain of playing
[00:20:12] this game is way worse than whatever pain it is to push through it.
[00:20:17] I think that's the, that it really is the rub because we're there as pastors, maybe people
[00:20:22] pleaser a little bit of that wiring of not wanting to address conflict or have hard conversations. But
[00:20:28] I tell you the time to have a hard conversation when somebody is not doing what they ought to do or
[00:20:33] behaving, you know, in a way that is not healthy for the church or for the community by not addressing
[00:20:40] it. You're going to end up in a worse situation later and way worse, way worse. So I just learned
[00:20:46] early on, like you, that even though we're going to be pacing change and thinking about change over
[00:20:51] time, the time to address dysfunction is right now. Yeah. Like, you know, it is, it just, it is the
[00:20:57] urgent thing for us as leaders to say, that's an unhealthy way. We don't, that's not how we engage
[00:21:02] with each other here. Here's how we are going to do it in a healthy way. When that triangulation
[00:21:06] happens or someone's talking behind your back, or you made an agreement about how you're going to do
[00:21:11] something and they change the rules halfway through the game and do something else, the time to address
[00:21:15] it is right then. That is not how we're going to live our life together. That's, that's not good. And
[00:21:20] you can bring people along if they're willing to come, but if you don't address dysfunction, you're
[00:21:25] going to lose credibility with people that were like, we need you to lead. We need you to create a
[00:21:29] healthier culture for us in order to be effective. So I think this is crucial. This could be at the
[00:21:34] top of the list and the bottom of the list and in the middle of the list. It's, it's so essential.
[00:21:39] And this is one where I think really, truly, if you're in a place where you're noticing some
[00:21:45] dysfunction and you're not sure what to do, truly reach out to us, even just as a sounding board to
[00:21:50] go, how do I approach this person in this conversation? Because this really is make or break
[00:21:55] time for your leadership. So I'd, I'd be willing to have that conversation. I'm sure you would, Jason,
[00:21:59] just to help people through it. Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you said. You
[00:22:04] made a really important point is that the healthy people will notice if you don't deal with the
[00:22:11] unhealthy dysfunction and that's not good. They'll, they'll start to say, what kind of,
[00:22:17] what kind of ship we run in here? You know, like what, or they'll just become discouraged
[00:22:21] because it's like, Oh, we thought maybe we can move in a healthier direction. And it's just,
[00:22:26] it's not, we don't want to reward dysfunction. So let's not do it.
[00:22:29] Yeah. All right. Number five, address the mess, address the mess. This came up a couple of times,
[00:22:37] but yeah, I was thinking about John Hambrick, uh, our friend that we had, he, he was on North
[00:22:44] Point staff. I, he might still be, I thought maybe he, he stopped a couple of years ago, but I lost
[00:22:49] track of him in the pandemic somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. But he wrote a book called move towards the mess.
[00:22:54] And, and what he asserts is that the reason we ought to move towards the mess is because that's
[00:22:59] where Jesus is. He was always moving toward the mess. And I was thinking about this.
[00:23:04] When you let things in your church be messy, a committee, some sort of staff tension or volunteer
[00:23:13] situation, or, um, it's all my, it's related to the dysfunctional behavior. But when you,
[00:23:21] when you leave the mess alone thinking, hopefully this will get better.
[00:23:28] It, I have never seen it get better on its own ever.
[00:23:32] Messes don't clean themselves up.
[00:23:33] Exactly. You'll never get to a healthier place to do the things that God's put on your heart.
[00:23:37] If you just allow messes to fester and that's what they do. They just grow. They don't really
[00:23:42] go away. And it's always, again, same with dysfunctional behavior. It's always like,
[00:23:46] we don't want to, it's very awkward or uncomfortable. It's not what we signed up for.
[00:23:51] It's not what we want to do, but man, does our church need us to do it?
[00:23:56] Yeah. And I think sometimes in, uh, giving people the benefit of the doubt around the mess, I mean,
[00:24:01] just kind of saying, Hey, this is how things go over time. We start maybe with one vision and become
[00:24:05] something else. And it's not as effective as it once was. And so what can we do to bring this thing
[00:24:10] back to a really healthy, vibrant place and get people problem solving it together. If there's
[00:24:15] dysfunction in there, that's causing the mess, then you know, you got to address that, but
[00:24:19] sometimes it just, things get loose or something goes missing in the purpose of a team or a committee
[00:24:24] and you got to kind of revisit what is this for? And, and that can help to begin to, to address
[00:24:29] the mess. So yeah, you notice some things that need work and this is what leaders do. I know you
[00:24:33] guys know where the messes are in churches, right? Just get in there, address it and say, Hey,
[00:24:38] I've noticed this is not quite what it could be or what it once was. What can we do now?
[00:24:43] I think that can actually be something that builds a sense of, of team back and can build trust and
[00:24:50] deepen it when you solve a problem together. Yeah. All right. Number six, this was something,
[00:24:56] again, this could have been number one or two that building trust in your congregation takes time.
[00:25:04] There's just no way around this. It's, it's the same principle at work with like the 10,000 hours
[00:25:10] to master something. Yeah. It just takes time. There's something about time in that builds trust.
[00:25:17] You have a record, you're a known entity and this creates more relational capital than you realize.
[00:25:25] Yeah. And there's kind of no replacement for it. Sometimes a crisis will speed this up,
[00:25:31] speed up the trust because however you help navigate a congregation through that crisis
[00:25:38] again, can speed up the time that you need. But usually I mean, the pastors we talked to were in
[00:25:43] their churches for years before some of the changes were made or the real substantive change started to
[00:25:50] happen. Laying the groundwork, laying the groundwork, building relationship. Right. So don't get discouraged
[00:25:54] if after three months you haven't turned the whole thing around. Yeah. Um, there's a pastor that I'm
[00:26:00] coaching now. I've been coaching for a while and early on you should get going. It was like week to
[00:26:06] week. And she's like, you know, Hey, I'm, I'm, you know, feeling down. We're not making progress. We're
[00:26:13] not. And I'm like, what are you talking about? You are doing all the right things. It is going to take
[00:26:19] time. And, uh, what was cool was watching her over the course of weeks and a couple of months, seeing
[00:26:25] that then the progress happened. I'm like, this is just how it works. And, um, and she's a really savvy
[00:26:30] pastor. She knows this, but we all need reminding. We all need reminding that building the trust needed for
[00:26:36] change takes time and just keep going, keep moving forward. And I promise progress is going to happen.
[00:26:44] Yeah. And I think there's lots of things. I mean, a ton out there on how to build trust or how to
[00:26:49] create an environment where trust is. And I would say one thing that's been effective for me and that
[00:26:54] I heard it some in our stories as we're listening to pastors sharing is just the ability to be
[00:27:00] personally vulnerable, to admit when you're not on the right track or to be open to other people's
[00:27:05] ideas. It's when you start to suffocate things with control or in authenticity, trying to pretend
[00:27:12] being something that you're not, or that that's where trust starts to your road. And so just being that
[00:27:17] open vulnerable, uh, I can't wait to see what God does and we're going to do it together kind of
[00:27:22] person that's going to build some of that trust over time, but it feels risky and scary and,
[00:27:27] and all of that. Um, but it's worth it when trust is there. So many good things can happen.
[00:27:33] Uh, and, uh, you can take your leadership further and, and you'll not only be trusted,
[00:27:37] but you'd be able to trust others to, to come in the direction where you feel the Lord's leading you.
[00:27:42] So trust is huge. There's a lot of resources we could throw your way on that, but another,
[00:27:46] another important topic, all these could be number one, just about.
[00:27:50] I know. And they, and they were universal among the pastors that we talked to. I mean,
[00:27:54] all of them were talking about these things. So, okay. Last one, because this came up twice.
[00:27:58] I think this was good. And I, it came up a couple of times in our conversation.
[00:28:02] Yeah. Two out of, two out of three of the, of the first three weeks mentioned this. So I think
[00:28:08] it's important to say, think twice before taking on church debt. It's not that you should never take
[00:28:17] on debt for forward movement or growth. I I'm not saying that, but man, know what you're doing
[00:28:25] because it could be a little bit like I was thinking about the NFL. It's like trading your
[00:28:30] draft picks for next year for this year's team. Yeah. You're giving away your future to win now
[00:28:36] and not that you should never do it. Just consider the consequences of that because all,
[00:28:41] in both those cases, they, they were going through a great season of growth and everyone was positive
[00:28:49] and excited and they took on the debt. And then when that pastor left or it, it took a downhill
[00:28:57] turn and it felt like they were just absolutely both crushed by the debt for years until both cases
[00:29:07] kind of crawling out of there, you know, got some gifts that put them over the top and,
[00:29:12] and now can breathe. But man, I just, my heart goes out to that. And I guess we all know that from
[00:29:18] personal debt, you know what that does, but my goodness, church debt is tough, especially in this
[00:29:24] church environment and our culture. Now I just make sure you really think it through.
[00:29:29] Yeah. I think it's gotta be crucially. It's gotta be tied to your mission now. And tomorrow,
[00:29:34] it can't just be, it would feel good, really great today, you know, kind of deal. Kind of like we do,
[00:29:39] you know, if you're going to go and buy something, you can't quite afford on your credit card because
[00:29:43] you just got to have it today and it's going to crush you for the next five years or something.
[00:29:47] Just being really mindful and, and thoughtful and purposeful in your, your discernment about debt.
[00:29:54] Um, I think a good way to look at it is kind of given where we've been,
[00:29:59] given where we hope to be one day, what's the wise thing to do right now?
[00:30:03] And if you're thinking about taking on like a big pile of debt,
[00:30:08] thinking five years from now, what's it going to be like when the shininess has worn off of
[00:30:12] everything and you're still paying a big chunk every month to that. And are there other ways
[00:30:17] to do what you're hoping to do? And can really fully exploring everything before you take that
[00:30:22] step. Sometimes you need to do it. And sometimes it's actually a healthy way to, to get traction that
[00:30:28] you could not otherwise get. And maybe even to carve out a space in your budget. Once that debt's
[00:30:32] paid off, you keep rolling that into a building fund or something. And it becomes a resource that
[00:30:37] can be used as you go along. There's wise ways to do it. And then there's ways that future leaders
[00:30:41] would be like, what were you thinking? Do you know what you did to us? Uh, and so just remember
[00:30:46] we're stewards, we're passing through, we're all interims, whether we stay for five years or 25 years.
[00:30:51] Uh, so being thoughtful of the long, the long haul.
[00:30:56] Well, I hope this has been helpful to you. I want to thank again, all of our guests who joined us
[00:31:00] this month. Um, it was great. It was great. And I hope again, man, we're all in real time. We are
[00:31:05] almost to Halloween and well, of course you're all looking forward to reformation Sunday.
[00:31:11] Uh, remember, uh, Dr. Berg from, uh, Princeton. And I remember in our Greek, it was the first
[00:31:19] class I had as it was the like intro to Greek and, and he dressed up, he was dressed up like Martin
[00:31:25] Luther and it was like right around Halloween. And he goes, you know what today is, or it's like
[00:31:30] reformation day. I just got a big kick out of it around the 500th anniversary. Yeah. And years later,
[00:31:36] anyway, but anyway, and, but probably most importantly is that in real time next week is
[00:31:44] the election, which I cannot hear. Let's just full disclosure. What happened before we hit
[00:31:51] record today? Jason was like, could you write an episode for that? And I was like, all right.
[00:31:56] I am a former scientist. I've got a lot of things to say about all that. He's got a lot of things to
[00:32:00] say. Well, so here's the thing that we're going to do is the thing that keeps coming up. And I've
[00:32:04] had a few people ask, how are you talking to your congregations about the election? And, uh, so
[00:32:10] we're going to do an episode on that and we're going to do it on a, it's going to come out election
[00:32:13] day. We will have no idea. I hope it ages well. Cause you know, you never know that America wrote
[00:32:22] in a candidate named Dave and yeah, that's right. I'm writing you in. So I hope that's cool.
[00:32:27] Sure. You know, go for it. Um, but anyway, that's, and we'll have some helpful things.
[00:32:34] To hopefully to give us some food for thought about how are we talking about this with our
[00:32:38] folks and what's a good posture to take in our role as pastor and all of that. So it
[00:32:42] is a worthwhile conversation and, and all of that. And Jason, I'm looking at the clock
[00:32:47] about 30 ish minutes in, and somebody has been listening at two times. They're ready for
[00:32:53] the punchline here.
[00:32:54] They're ready. They're ready for the win. Okay.
[00:32:56] The win.
[00:32:56] So appreciation month punchline.
[00:32:58] So here's what I did. I actually printed out our subscribers and I closed my eyes.
[00:33:06] I shuffled the papers around and I put my finger down.
[00:33:10] It was the fairest thing. I just, honestly, I'm too lazy to cut them all up into pieces
[00:33:14] and then reach into a hat. Right. I just, that was, so that was my way of doing it.
[00:33:19] Um, Oh, so here's the winner. You know, I don't want to, this is the punchline.
[00:33:23] It is Ross from La Cunada Presbyterian church. Ross, congratulations. You are the big winner
[00:33:32] of our one month free coaching. I'll be reaching out to you. And, uh, Ross, um, it was, I was,
[00:33:40] I would be glad anybody won, but Ross La Cunada Presbyterian church is right near where I grew up.
[00:33:47] I grew up in Glendale, California and La Cunada is where I had family who lived in La Cunada and
[00:33:52] La Crescenta. And we, um, gosh, it's just crazy. Brought back a lot of memories thinking about
[00:33:57] that church. So anyway, Ross, uh, we'll connect and congratulations again, again, to everybody.
[00:34:03] I hope that you feel the love, uh, this month you were doing such great work. Keep at it.
[00:34:08] Don't give up. Um, the election's almost over and hopefully that means we're winding down
[00:34:14] the chaos. Here's the thing about that, Jason, it'll be okay. We're going to be okay. God is good.
[00:34:20] Jesus is on the throne. It's going to be okay. So stay faithful, stay, uh, you know, keep your head
[00:34:25] up, keep, keep going. You got this leading change is, is a challenge, but it's, it's great work too.
[00:34:32] We get to see amazing things happen as God works in it through our community. So we're rooting for
[00:34:37] you. We care about you. Thanks for being a part of this conversation with us. Amen. Jesse ministry
[00:34:41] is hard. It is so much better when we do it together. Take care, everyone.