[00:00:00] They just don't have somebody that doesn't have some sort of dual relationship. Like even if they have a good friend, let's say they're in an elder driven church, they might have a good friend on the elder board, but there's always that concern about, can I really share my doubts and what's going on at home or any of those things because of that dual relationship.
[00:00:27] Welcome to episode 363. Today we are concluding Pastor Appreciation Month as we've interviewed pastors just like you in the trenches, what they're doing, what they're learning and how God is showing up. In today's episode, we have a great conversation with Pastor Dave Burke, and we talk about pastor self care, avoiding burnout and more. You don't want to miss this one. It's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:53] Welcome to the Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker.
[00:00:57] And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact.
[00:01:04] We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that worked for us.
[00:01:07] And some that didn't.
[00:01:09] Best practices and practical tools for church leadership.
[00:01:12] The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.
[00:01:19] What is so good to be back, Jesse, talking with pastors, stories from the trenches.
[00:01:24] And I've been hearing from folks who are listeners that have been enjoying these because I think it's just so encouraging and helpful to hear that.
[00:01:33] I don't know that we're not crazy. Like we're going through all the same things that everyone else is going through.
[00:01:42] This is Pastor Appreciation Month, and we just are trying to show how much we appreciate you pastors for what you do and for the hard work that you're doing.
[00:01:50] And you're really going to love our conversation today.
[00:01:54] And before we get into it, as we ask of you, we're able to do this podcast for free.
[00:02:01] And it's something that we do because it's what our heart's about.
[00:02:04] We want to help as many pastors as possible because, as we always say, ministry is hard and it's so much better when we do it together.
[00:02:11] So if you'd be willing to share this episode or any of our episodes with a colleague and to spread the word about the podcast, that would really be helpful to us.
[00:02:19] Or to leave a review on your platform of choice. We love getting reviews.
[00:02:24] It's so great to hear from you because, you know, we make these episodes and they go out into the universe and you sort of don't know what happens or how it's helping other pastors.
[00:02:34] So that would be great. And I did.
[00:02:37] I was made aware by one of our listeners actually this week that on iTunes and I almost had a panic attack is if you go on to iTunes, you use iTunes, it's only showing two that we have two episodes.
[00:02:51] We have 362 episodes and I'm like, what happened to the other 360 episodes that we've been curating or cultivating over the last five years?
[00:03:02] All right. Six years. And the answer was SoundCloud, who is our host, had some sort of glitch a couple of weeks ago and it's going to take a little time to build everything back.
[00:03:14] That was the official word I got, but I was freaking out a little bit.
[00:03:17] I bet you were.
[00:03:18] A lot of work, Jason.
[00:03:20] That's a lot of work.
[00:03:21] If you go on to Spotify or if you go on to our website, all 362 episodes are there.
[00:03:27] So if you want to look and get some back episodes and if iTunes isn't working for some reason, hopefully it'll be resolved by the time this comes out.
[00:03:33] But I did want everybody to know just in case.
[00:03:35] We have done more than two.
[00:03:37] I promise.
[00:03:38] That's right. Oh my gosh.
[00:03:39] I was freaking out, man.
[00:03:40] Many, many, many, many more times than two.
[00:03:42] In fact, anyway, but yeah, really glad to be talking stories in the trenches again and really thinking pastor appreciation.
[00:03:49] I appreciate you, Jason.
[00:03:51] I hope somebody said that to you this month.
[00:03:53] And if not, I don't, you're not overlooked, man.
[00:03:56] You're doing great work and all of our pastors, you know, it's, it's hard.
[00:03:59] It's good.
[00:04:00] There's beautiful moments and there's times when we just fill in the grind and wishing things were different or, you know, maybe have big questions we're wrestling with, or maybe even our sense of call or things at home are hard.
[00:04:12] And we don't always have a place to go to, to talk.
[00:04:15] And I love, I'll mention this in a minute, but I love that you and I get to talk before and after when we record and we just get to connect and check in.
[00:04:22] How's it going?
[00:04:23] How are you holding up and all that?
[00:04:24] And we need that as pastors and our guest today is going to help us to think about what does it mean for a pastor to have a pastor?
[00:04:33] What kind of need would that meet in our life?
[00:04:35] How would that make our ministry better or more effective or, or help us in some way to continue to, to, to discern our call and to succeed in it or thrive in it.
[00:04:45] So really can't wait to get to share our guests with our listeners today.
[00:04:49] Yeah.
[00:04:49] Pastor David Burke.
[00:04:51] Uh, you could tell he's good at what he does.
[00:04:52] We were joking the episode.
[00:04:54] Cause all of a sudden Jesse and I were talking about all of our stuff, you know?
[00:04:57] That's what happens every time I talk to David.
[00:04:59] It's like, I mean, man, I'm talking to my kids and my prompts with my kid or the challenge thing.
[00:05:06] And I'm like, wait a minute.
[00:05:08] This was, how are you doing?
[00:05:09] How are you?
[00:05:10] Oh, wait, you're our guest.
[00:05:12] That's great.
[00:05:12] That's right.
[00:05:13] Um, no, it was really great talking to him.
[00:05:15] You guys are gonna love the interview, but first I want to give a, we got our last giveaway this
[00:05:18] week, giving away another book.
[00:05:20] And, um, this is a book that I have really been loving.
[00:05:25] You know, I'm a big building a sense of urgency with the congregation.
[00:05:29] That is the number one step.
[00:05:31] I think to get change happening.
[00:05:33] And it's, I think the number one role of the leader is to build a sense of urgency around whatever the
[00:05:38] ministry problem is we're trying to tackle.
[00:05:40] And the way that I've had the most success in doing that is to find good research that
[00:05:47] shows this isn't just a, my church thing.
[00:05:50] This is, this is the thing.
[00:05:52] This is what's happening all around.
[00:05:53] And so this book, the great D churching came out last year, Jim Davis and Michael Graham.
[00:05:58] Uh, they it's, it's fantastic.
[00:06:01] And it's a study.
[00:06:04] They did a deep dive on the D churching phenomenon.
[00:06:07] Who's leaving, why they're going and what it will take to bring them back.
[00:06:11] It's a book that it shows you very clearly what's going on with different demographics, but also that there's tremendous hope.
[00:06:20] Yeah.
[00:06:21] And, and what's next.
[00:06:23] So anyway, this is a great book.
[00:06:25] We're going to give it away.
[00:06:25] We picked a name.
[00:06:27] Here we go.
[00:06:28] Ready?
[00:06:28] Uh, everyone do your drum hole at home or in your car, unless you're driving.
[00:06:33] And the winner of this book is Peter.
[00:06:35] I don't have a last name, Peter from gathering PCC.
[00:06:40] I'm guessing that's another Presbyterian brother, but you know, I'm going to make too many suggestions, you know, too many assumptions, but Peter, congratulations.
[00:06:48] We are going to send you a copy.
[00:06:49] We're going to reach out via email and, uh, you're going to let us know where to send it, but we're excited that you've won this.
[00:06:55] We appreciate you.
[00:06:57] And again, to all of our pastors, even if you're not one of the big winners, we do hope that you feel appreciated this month.
[00:07:03] And so with that, let's get right to our interview without further ado.
[00:07:07] This is David Burke.
[00:07:09] Well, so good to have the Reverend Dr.
[00:07:11] David John Burke with us today.
[00:07:14] And this is, you know, talk to DJB.
[00:07:16] We've, you know, lots of different ways that we refer to, uh, the Reverend Burke.
[00:07:20] Um, but Dave was my boss in Chattanooga, Tennessee about a lifetime ago and a lifetime of ministry ago, certainly.
[00:07:28] And so really grateful to have a good friend, a great pastor, uh, someone who's seen a lot of ministry and has a lot to share with us.
[00:07:35] So just really super glad to get to welcome you to the podcast.
[00:07:39] Let's welcome, welcome Dave Burke.
[00:07:42] Thanks you guys.
[00:07:42] Really honored to be here with you and, and talk through life and ministry.
[00:07:48] It's great to be with you.
[00:07:49] Well now.
[00:07:50] And so before we kind of get into some of the conversation about your experiences and things, I thought introduce us to what you're doing now.
[00:07:56] You're working with standing stone ministry that you describe as a, you're a pastor to pastors.
[00:08:02] You, you provide free coaching and care for pastors.
[00:08:05] Tell us a little bit about that, what you're doing now and the ministry involved with.
[00:08:09] Sure.
[00:08:11] So standing stone ministry, uh, born out of Southern California, Jason, where, uh, you've said you were from.
[00:08:17] And, um, it was birthed by a couple named Jim and Debbie Hogan, and they were not pastors or paid church staff leaders.
[00:08:28] They were members within their church and as leaders within their church, they saw three generations of pastors in, in their life, uh, in their older life.
[00:08:40] And then in their children's lives have to leave the ministry for a variety of reasons.
[00:08:43] And they felt compelled to be, uh, part of, you know, God's solution and helping stem the tide of that.
[00:08:51] So standing stone was birthed originally as a retreat ministry.
[00:08:56] Uh, Jim and Debbie would host, uh, clergy couples at their home.
[00:09:00] Uh, then they built a ranch out in Colorado called standing stone.
[00:09:04] That's where the ministry name comes from.
[00:09:06] And they would have couples that were in crisis, clergy couples in crisis come and stay with them.
[00:09:13] And they would feed them, listen to them, care for them, give them a week of rest and rejuvenation.
[00:09:20] And they quickly, uh, enlisted other friends that had homes that were like respite kind of homes, places for rest and rejuvenation.
[00:09:32] And it standing stone began as a retreat ministry.
[00:09:36] And then about eight years of doing that, they realized one week a year or one week, every six months is not going to stem the tide of ministry burnout and marriage crisis leadership failure.
[00:09:50] So they began launching what, what I am called a field shepherd, um, a pastor out in the field, ministering to other pastors and ministry leaders.
[00:10:00] And over the last 10 years, it's grown a lot.
[00:10:04] Uh, there are now 260 of us, uh, in 39 States in the, in the U S and there are a handful of international standing stone shepherds as well.
[00:10:15] And the most recent estimate is that we're meeting with about 3000 pastors every month, um, to be a safe place, a confidential place for them to share whatever is going on in their life and ministry.
[00:10:29] And, and really pastor the pastors.
[00:10:34] That's awesome.
[00:10:35] That, that is, that is very encouraging to hear that this ministry is happening and.
[00:10:43] You know, every pastor listening, including Jesse and I, I mean, it's like, I'm resonating immediately.
[00:10:48] Like, Oh, I'm going to go look that up.
[00:10:51] That would be really cool.
[00:10:52] Maybe we should just hit pause right now.
[00:10:57] Because we are so fried.
[00:11:00] Everybody is so fried and, um, for, for lots of different reasons.
[00:11:06] And, you know, part of it, of course is church stuff, but it's even more than that.
[00:11:10] Just the way that, that culture is and the depletion factor without really getting filled up enough.
[00:11:20] Um, I don't know.
[00:11:21] Pastors are terrible at Sabbaths, which is kind of ironic, but, um, but we are.
[00:11:27] So anyway, I'm really, really thankful you're doing the work that you're doing.
[00:11:30] Yeah.
[00:11:31] Yeah.
[00:11:32] It's fun to talk.
[00:11:33] We were connecting over the phone.
[00:11:34] I think it was the last Thursday or Friday or something.
[00:11:36] And then we talked a little Huskies, a little Seahawks and a little bit of the Barna research on just where pastors are.
[00:11:42] And we've kicked some of that around on a podcast over a couple of episodes, but just let's talk about that for a minute.
[00:11:48] What's going on?
[00:11:49] What are we hearing about how pastors are doing?
[00:11:52] What's the latest research saying?
[00:11:54] And why is this such a need?
[00:11:56] Yeah, great question.
[00:11:58] Um, so I attended the state of pastor summit that Barna did.
[00:12:02] And, uh, I think it was this last April and the most recent research is showing that 70% of pastors don't feel like they have a close friend that they talk with on a regular basis.
[00:12:16] Um, 70% of those that were surveyed feel like their self-esteem is lower than when they began their life of ministry, which is a telling, uh, statistic, I think.
[00:12:30] And then I know that this number has changed recently, and you may be familiar with this one that shortly after the pandemic, 40% of pastors were seriously thinking about quitting.
[00:12:44] Hmm.
[00:12:45] And now I think it's down to about 33, 32%, something like that.
[00:12:49] But still that's a, a third, almost a third of pastors that aren't just going, Oh, and maybe one day I'll quit.
[00:12:57] Like have seriously thought about, uh, hanging it up and, and moving on to something else, whatever that might be.
[00:13:05] So, and there are a lot of other statistics that are in that state of pastor summit that I think show the, the mental health wear and tear on pastors.
[00:13:18] The, um, they're pastoring a different kind of church now than they were prior to 2020.
[00:13:25] And, uh, there's a lot of discouragement.
[00:13:29] Yeah.
[00:13:29] Yeah.
[00:13:29] We talk a lot about just decision fatigue, just the grind of ministry, the expectations, or the feeling like you're going to say something that's going to undo all your good work.
[00:13:39] There's just a lot of pressure, I think too.
[00:13:40] And I don't know.
[00:13:41] I was wondering if, you know, is this, is it, is Barna's stuff, is that reflected in your conversations with pastors in the trenches?
[00:13:48] I mean, is this, you know, sometimes you get a statistical snapshot and you kind of go, okay, is that really true?
[00:13:54] But does that resonate with what you're hearing from pastors out there?
[00:13:58] It does.
[00:14:00] It does.
[00:14:00] I would say it is very interesting to me.
[00:14:04] I've been really doing this work more full time in just the last six months, but I will get, um, a phone call or a text and meet up with a pastor for coffee or lunch or something.
[00:14:18] Sometimes via zoom.
[00:14:20] And within the first five to seven minutes, they'll say something along the lines of, so I've never told anybody this before.
[00:14:29] Hmm.
[00:14:31] And then it is something along the lines of something that's going on in their family, but they don't feel like they could share it with their elder board because, you know, if you can't manage your family, well, then what are you doing in church leadership is the way they're thinking.
[00:14:45] Mm-hmm .
[00:14:46] There's something going on in their marriage.
[00:14:48] There's doubts that they have about, uh, their call to ministry.
[00:14:54] Mm-hmm .
[00:14:54] And, and me listening, um, encouraging, asking deeper questions, maybe challenging some assumptions.
[00:15:06] That's what I get to do.
[00:15:07] And, and I really think it's, it's a holy ground that I walk on.
[00:15:11] I'm, I'm always a little surprised that people feel like they, you know, they're going to dump whatever it is, uh, in that first conversation.
[00:15:22] But I think it really shows they know they need to, to talk to somebody.
[00:15:26] Yeah.
[00:15:27] They just don't have somebody that doesn't have some sort of dual relationship.
[00:15:32] Like even if they have a good friend, let's say they're in a, an elder driven church, they might have a good friend on the elder board, but there's always that concern about, and I really share my doubts and what's going on at home or, or any of those things because of that dual relationship.
[00:15:54] And so somebody from outside their organization, whose job it is to pastor, shepherd, care for them.
[00:16:03] Um, I find that, that yes, they're, they're talking about the deeper things that matter, uh, of loneliness, anxiety, depression, uh, marital difficulties, leadership challenges, you name it.
[00:16:20] Yeah.
[00:16:21] So a place to be known and to be heard, to be honest.
[00:16:23] And I think Jason, you and I started this.
[00:16:26] When did we start recording?
[00:16:27] I can't remember 2017 or something.
[00:16:29] 2017 fall, 2017.
[00:16:32] That's how long we've been friends, but also longer than that.
[00:16:34] But we just started talking shop and found that I find some of the most valuable time.
[00:16:39] And of course it's great to record episodes, but it's before and after before we, you came on, I was kind of lamenting.
[00:16:45] We we've had four memorial services this month.
[00:16:48] That's just a lot.
[00:16:49] And I was like, we've had 22 since, you know, 2021.
[00:16:52] And, but there's a way that we can, we don't, not everybody has that relationship where we can kind of go, here's what's really going on.
[00:17:00] And, and, uh, and so I appreciate you being able to be there with pastors in the trenches just to get to process in the midst of that, what can be isolating, I think for leaders.
[00:17:10] Well, I think that example that you just gave shows the difficult nature of pastoral ministry.
[00:17:18] It had a large number of memorial services.
[00:17:21] And I would imagine in each and every case you're, it's a different scenario of someone, maybe it's a sudden death or maybe it was expected due to their age or some sort of diagnosis.
[00:17:34] But you just have to keep moving.
[00:17:37] You, you don't have a whole lot of time to process yourself grief.
[00:17:43] You're, you're holding the grief of four different families in the last month.
[00:17:49] Not to mention what you're preparing also on a, on a Sunday morning, which I'm sure is a completely different kind of thing.
[00:17:58] And that, that expectation to just keep moving forward, uh, and not deal with your own stuff.
[00:18:08] Um, because you don't have the margin to do it.
[00:18:12] I think that can be really wearing on people.
[00:18:15] And I think we're seeing that some of the Barna stats, that's what we're seeing is people going up.
[00:18:19] How long realistically is this a healthy way to enter into people's lives?
[00:18:26] And is this, is this a healthy way to do this?
[00:18:29] Yeah.
[00:18:30] Well, again, since the pandemic, I mean, what every pastor needed as we started to reopen was everyone needed a sabbatical.
[00:18:36] Like everyone needed a break.
[00:18:38] Nobody got it.
[00:18:39] It was just full on into this whole new realm of church, which in so many ways has been equally challenging.
[00:18:48] Uh, maybe not as far as having to decide how to do the unknown, but, but trying to figure things out.
[00:18:53] So, yeah, I think definitely a lot of pastors and it's, it's not surprising that it's resonating with the pastors that you're talking to.
[00:19:01] I mean, just kind of where we're at.
[00:19:03] Yeah, it is.
[00:19:05] Yeah, it is.
[00:19:05] I know that my own scenario that was, was, there was a lot of, especially in California, uh, that had, we were one of those churches that, that we had a team of healthcare experts.
[00:19:20] That, um, that were counseling us on kind of what was going on.
[00:19:26] And we have, we asked them, what do you think we should do?
[00:19:30] Abide by county restrictions and all that.
[00:19:32] And, uh, but when all that was finally restricted, you, you bet Jason, everybody's desire was to just jump back into the things that we did.
[00:19:42] And, and there was, uh, in some ways, uh, a division among the things that I was hearing, which here people say, oh, with all that we had to adapt and do, we're not just going to go back and do everything that we used to do.
[00:19:59] And a whole nother group of people said, oh, now we can get back.
[00:20:04] Finally.
[00:20:05] Yeah.
[00:20:05] Now we can push down the gas pedal again and go for it.
[00:20:08] And that's right when you and I, and all of us in leadership were going, I just need a break.
[00:20:13] I mean, we were, how many things ended up on pastor's plates that were not there before.
[00:20:17] Now the pandemic consolidates that.
[00:20:20] And we're, we're trying to kind of figure out, navigate a really complex social and emotional situation for our people, decision fatigue, all the things kind of piling on.
[00:20:31] And then we get to the end of it and everybody's like, all right.
[00:20:34] And they're feeling pretty good, but we're like right to the edge.
[00:20:38] And so I think that that's true.
[00:20:40] And I wanted to drill down if you're willing to share a little bit more about kind of how did it go, you know, the last couple of months there at Fremont, you were kind of wrestling with some things and tell us a little bit about that part of the story, whatever you're comfortable sharing.
[00:20:54] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:56] So I was really fortunate to have over the last five years of me being a lead senior pastor at that church, two different coaches in my life.
[00:21:05] One was not a pastor.
[00:21:06] He was a healthcare executive.
[00:21:08] And one was a pastor.
[00:21:10] And I don't think he'll mind me saying who he is.
[00:21:13] If you've read Canoeing the Mountains by Todd Bolsinger or Tempered Brazilians, I was really fortunate to have Todd as my pastoral coach over the last 18 months.
[00:21:22] And, and both of, of the coaches in my life helped me wrestle with some of those deeper questions.
[00:21:31] They were my safe place to go and, and talk about things.
[00:21:36] And there were two, there were many, many factors.
[00:21:40] I've been in a small group of, of men that have met consistently for 28 years.
[00:21:47] All of us have started, started doing college ministry together.
[00:21:50] And now we're all doing different kinds of work, but we had made a commitment to meet together annually for 28 years.
[00:21:56] And those men have spoken into my life over the last several years.
[00:22:01] One of them said to me a few years ago, David, you're the pastor to the pastors.
[00:22:06] And I didn't know what that meant, but certainly with what I'm doing now, it started to resonate.
[00:22:12] Um, but the, there were two distinct things that I heard from people that helped me, uh, come to a decision that it was time for me to step down from the role that I'd had.
[00:22:26] And one was this, I met with a spiritual director who said to me, David, it sounds like you are longing for the hidden work of deeper discipleship.
[00:22:38] You're longing for the hidden work of deeper discipleship.
[00:22:42] And, and, and something about that phrase, I wrote it down after we met and I just began to try to think and pray.
[00:22:52] What, what, what, what I think he's right.
[00:22:54] What does that mean?
[00:22:55] I knew that there was this longing within me that, that there was the things that I was doing.
[00:23:00] There was, there was joy, but there was struggle.
[00:23:04] I felt like something wasn't there.
[00:23:07] And the hiddenness part is what I began to focus on.
[00:23:12] Um, and for me, I interpreted the hidden work of deeper discipleship is that I've always had this belief ever since my days of college ministry.
[00:23:22] That I was probably being more effective when I took a student out to lunch or a cup of coffee or an intern and just ask them questions about their life, their faith, their, how they pictured God, what they wanted, what did they think God's purpose for them was all those things.
[00:23:42] Than any sermon I ever preached.
[00:23:44] Now that's not to denigrate the art of preaching.
[00:23:48] I mean, I love preaching and teaching and that was a major part of my role, but I knew I've always held this belief that.
[00:23:54] But I saw God at work in those one-on-one conversations more in myself.
[00:24:00] And I felt like, you know, the, the chariots of fire line comes to my, I felt God's pleasure in those one-on-one conversations.
[00:24:08] So, and I actually felt like in my own life, the deeper discipleship happened in one-on-one relationship.
[00:24:15] And so I began to wonder like, what would that look like to do not maybe the public work of ministry, but do the things that nobody else sees in the coffee shops or on zoom or over lunch.
[00:24:30] Where actually real conversations can happen.
[00:24:36] And hopefully with God's working in the midst of that conversation, deeper discipleship happened.
[00:24:44] The funnier statement, and I'll explain what was meant by this is that Todd told me one time after me kind of explaining and wrestling with my role at the church.
[00:24:55] He said, David, you're the freaking queen of England.
[00:25:01] And I had to laugh like that.
[00:25:04] Thanks a lot.
[00:25:05] It's helpful.
[00:25:06] I'm sorry.
[00:25:06] Can you explain that?
[00:25:08] He goes, you're the, you're the queen of England.
[00:25:09] I said, can you elaborate what you mean by that?
[00:25:12] And he said, it sounds as if you're in an environment where, where all of the structures are designed for you to have a performative role with little power to change the structure.
[00:25:31] Hmm.
[00:25:33] And when he explained what is zinger, by the way.
[00:25:36] Yes.
[00:25:39] And once he said that I couldn't unsee it.
[00:25:44] And, and I, I'm sure as pastors, the number of times that you feel like you're being asked to just show up at something.
[00:25:51] Yep.
[00:25:52] To, to open the meeting.
[00:25:54] To say the prayer at the event.
[00:25:57] Um, but maybe your context is different in, in my, I felt like, uh, the context I was in, they wanted me to do a very few things.
[00:26:10] They loved the, the, the preaching and the teaching, you know, focus on this.
[00:26:15] But when it came to my own desires to see change and transformation happen in a body of believers, I was not a good fit because that was not the expectation.
[00:26:28] There was more of a performative kind of role.
[00:26:31] Yeah.
[00:26:31] Once I saw some of those things that the hidden work of deep discipleship, whether I was a good fit for what felt like a performative role, uh, those two things kind of came together for me to, to decide, to step down.
[00:26:46] And, and I'll own this, that, that I was probably, I know I was not the best leader at this stage in that church's life to lead the kind of substantive change that, that needs to, to happen.
[00:27:01] Um, so I'll own, I didn't have all the skills, the, uh, the gifts to lead in that way.
[00:27:11] And I felt like, you know, for this church to really step into its next chapter, whatever that is, I need to take a step back.
[00:27:19] Yeah.
[00:27:20] Yeah.
[00:27:20] Wow.
[00:27:21] That's really powerful.
[00:27:22] I mean, I do think there are times where all of us as pastors have felt that sense of I'm a commodity right now, or I'm playing a function that is distant from my life.
[00:27:31] I, what I feel is my true calling in ministry to want to see people, people's lives transformed and changed.
[00:27:37] And sometimes when you're at that, yeah, that higher up leadership level, it, it just feels like that on the ground life on life ministry pieces, what, what it goes missing the most.
[00:27:47] And, and when you do it, there's even some guilt about, am I spending my time wisely?
[00:27:51] I could, I should be working on the budget or I should be working on this, or I should be leading a session meeting or a retreat or something.
[00:27:56] And remember you said something, and when we were talking about just how there's something in, in the way that the church in North America has been in its history.
[00:28:06] And it needs to give way to something else to be healthy, but we're sort of stuck in this picture of what a pastor of a successful church looks like and does.
[00:28:14] And I think there's, there's some work to do in the midst of that.
[00:28:18] Yes, absolutely.
[00:28:20] Some of the pastors that I meet with, I meet with lead pastors or senior pastors, the ones that are primarily charged with the communication peace ministry, and also some associate pastors.
[00:28:34] I, I find this weariness among those that do it regularly.
[00:28:42] Next week, I'm up again.
[00:28:44] Next week, I'm up again.
[00:28:45] Next week, I'm up again.
[00:28:46] And always trying to hone that skill and that art and that it wears on you.
[00:28:52] And then among the associate pastors that get to do it not as often, they're longing for more and more and more of it.
[00:29:00] Because they see that in the North American church, particularly that the communication gift is elevated above so many others.
[00:29:11] And, and there's just default belief that it's the teaching and preaching that will lead to success and growth.
[00:29:22] And in, in the, I think in the North American context, we see this, it's great amount of attention on that.
[00:29:31] Um, and you have to wonder what will that lead to, uh, this insistence that our growth as a body is going to come at the one with the really great gift of doing this as much as humanly possible in a year.
[00:29:51] No, we can't have you go away for four weeks because this will decline.
[00:29:57] If you do those kinds of conversations.
[00:30:00] Yeah.
[00:30:00] I remember, uh, was it Redeemer Jason that stopped saying when Tim Keller wouldn't be preaching?
[00:30:05] Yes.
[00:30:05] Yeah.
[00:30:06] They, they wouldn't share his schedule, um, because they didn't want people not to come and, you know, they're making a point.
[00:30:13] I think there's a real tension though, even just, I mean, we're, we're nowhere near Redeemer level, but you know, you sort of become for people.
[00:30:21] It's kind of like their trusted doctor.
[00:30:24] And if you go to see the doctor and there's an unexpected substitute, you're like, you're not my doctor.
[00:30:29] I'm not, I didn't want to come.
[00:30:31] I feel like there's something like that going on when people show up to worship because worship itself has become such a passive.
[00:30:43] Um, I think performative experience where it's very, there's consumerisms all over it.
[00:30:56] So I think on one level, it's like, am I being fed?
[00:30:59] Am I resonating with the preacher?
[00:31:01] Is it speaking into my life?
[00:31:02] And if you find somebody who's doing that, you feel like you struck gold because you're probably only giving that one hour a week.
[00:31:08] Like, you know, most people, they're not doing another study.
[00:31:12] They're not in a small group.
[00:31:13] That's like their time where they're trying to figure it all out.
[00:31:18] And there's all this pressure on the sermon to proclaim and to teach and to, you know, all these other things that it's doing.
[00:31:24] And to make us laugh and make us cry.
[00:31:25] Exactly.
[00:31:26] And it's, it's become really unhealthy.
[00:31:29] But I think for a lot of us who are in the main preaching role is we feel sort of stuck.
[00:31:34] Like, what do we do?
[00:31:34] I, I honestly, I struggle with, I can't take multiple weeks away because I'm going to hear about it.
[00:31:43] And I just don't want to, I didn't want to hear about it.
[00:31:47] But there's also like, so I'm resonating deeply with the idea that just feeling like we're sort of stuck in this in between what it has been, what it is now and what it needs to be.
[00:31:58] I think is really hard.
[00:32:01] Yeah.
[00:32:01] Yeah.
[00:32:02] Yeah.
[00:32:04] Yeah.
[00:32:04] Yeah.
[00:32:04] This is getting, getting me thinking too.
[00:32:06] And I was talking to our assistant pastor here at Marine View and we were talking about how we miss the days of college ministry.
[00:32:12] We both had some experiences there and I worked with Dave for a year in Chattanooga before you kicked me out and made me go, go somewhere else.
[00:32:20] No, it was great.
[00:32:21] I was an intern in, uh, at the Presbyterian campus ministry there on, on Oak street was on Oak street, right?
[00:32:26] Yeah, that's right.
[00:32:27] Anyway, one of the great years of my life and of course met my future wife there and all kinds of things.
[00:32:33] So thank you for, for that experience.
[00:32:34] But, uh, and you encouraged me.
[00:32:36] I remember a pastor to pastors before I was even close to that.
[00:32:39] I was thinking about law school, a job opportunity for college ministry came up and you said, why don't you give this another chance?
[00:32:45] See if this may be something God's doing in your life.
[00:32:47] So you were a pastor to pastors then and still are.
[00:32:51] Um, but even thinking back to those days, the highly relational environment of that life on life ministry, I think that's, it was powerful and meaningful.
[00:32:59] And there were young people at this phase of life where they were asking big questions, wrestling with big decisions.
[00:33:05] And, and now it's almost like we're a shopkeeper, a CEO, uh, you know, there there's meaningful interactions.
[00:33:13] There's good things.
[00:33:14] I don't want to discount the good that God does in it, through our ministries and the way people's lives are changed.
[00:33:18] But I feel like there's a, I long to get back to those days where I could just go shoot hoops and talk about life with someone.
[00:33:26] And maybe it's shame on me for not creating environment.
[00:33:29] We always talk about the environment exists is what you've created or allowed.
[00:33:32] Right?
[00:33:33] So after 15 years, if I haven't found a way to do that, I guess I'm part of the problem, but I miss those days.
[00:33:39] And I hear us kind of saying that there's something in this pastoral call that is maybe missing from a lot of our roles when we're more in that performative mind.
[00:33:48] Yeah.
[00:33:49] Well, I think, I mean, to be fair, the college years, you have more disposable time than almost at any other time in your life.
[00:33:58] Except, you know, for 16 years, I heard college students say, oh, I'm so busy.
[00:34:03] And, and.
[00:34:05] Yeah, you're right.
[00:34:06] You don't know what busy is.
[00:34:07] We had six kids and I was going, really?
[00:34:10] You think I'm busy?
[00:34:10] Um, so, um, I do think there's a unique timeframe to be able to have those long, you know?
[00:34:20] Yeah.
[00:34:21] And I think now, Jason, you were saying the, the commitment that even our most faithful people in the congregation can give is that one hour a week.
[00:34:31] And what's the statistic?
[00:34:32] Your most faithful people attend 1.7 Sundays a month.
[00:34:37] Yeah.
[00:34:37] Your most faithful folks.
[00:34:39] Uh, so I think that, that the, the amount of time that's available for that life on life ministry is less.
[00:34:52] That being said, it's still vital to really, uh, forming community, deepening discipleship, because what we're getting in the North American church right now is, um, has a semblance of discipleship.
[00:35:15] But it's fully dependent on a 20, 25, 30, 30, however long you preach in that hour.
[00:35:25] And then the rest of the week, you know, yes, we can fill space with digital ways of discipleship and all that, but the, the voices and the time and the commitments drown all that out until the next Sunday.
[00:35:42] Yeah.
[00:35:43] It's tricky.
[00:35:44] I don't know, Jason, how have you guys, I know you've been working on some of this.
[00:35:48] How do you drill down into more of a, how do we form disciples beyond the Sunday?
[00:35:53] Yeah.
[00:35:54] So we've been talking a lot over the last six months about what does that look like to create, to really, and this is not new revolutionary language, but what does it look like to align all of our staff and ministries and everything we're doing?
[00:36:08] Discipleship as its core, what everything is discipleship.
[00:36:11] So how are we leveraging every opportunity to help people have, first of all, build spiritual friendships because you can't have discipleship without human beings.
[00:36:22] And, and how do we bring people from outside the walls of the church, have them engage in the church and feel like they are growing as followers of Jesus.
[00:36:31] So thinking about our programs, our events, our studies, small groups, worship, all that stuff to try to align it all.
[00:36:39] And it's, it's obviously, it's a work in progress.
[00:36:42] Yeah.
[00:36:42] Um, and it always will be, but you know, just thinking about everything you do as a church, as a conduit of discipleship, I think is, is an important step.
[00:36:54] And you would think that's something we just think of naturally and be like, no, duh, which maybe some pastors are saying right now.
[00:36:59] Yeah. But, um, but I don't know, I think it's so easy to get hung up on all the other stuff that we forget that, or we don't connect the dots with all the different disparate parts of the church.
[00:37:10] Yeah. I think what you learned in your youth ministry days and what I learned in college ministry days, and I think Dave, you too, is that there's a skillset that comes with being able to sit with someone and help them take steps to move forward in their life and faith and to listen well and to reflect, you know, back what maybe you hear God doing in their life.
[00:37:28] And, um, we have a couple of folks working with, um, Jim Singleton to talk, to, to figure out what does life on life or one-on-one or micro discipleship look like?
[00:37:37] And how do we encourage not just the staff and leaders to do it, but to equip people to be disciples who make disciples and walk alongside each other.
[00:37:45] And it's obvious, it's the most obvious thing, but it is, is there's so many constraints in our, in our kind of minor mindset.
[00:37:53] And the place that I'm finding the most traction right now, which is funny, cause it's kind of like college ministry in reverse is actually at the retirement homes where people have a lot of time on our hands again.
[00:38:03] And some of our biggest life transformation is happening in the lives of people who now have too much time on their hands again and are asking big questions and wrestling.
[00:38:13] And so some of my favorite stuff to do is just go hang out.
[00:38:16] I can't play hoops quite the same way as maybe the college ministry, but just meeting people where they are.
[00:38:22] By the way, this is amazing.
[00:38:24] We're half an hour in and something about David, I feel like we haven't stopped talking.
[00:38:29] David's just drawing that out of us.
[00:38:31] He's drawing out all of our issues are coming out.
[00:38:33] No, truly.
[00:38:35] Every time you talk with David, you will get your gifts.
[00:38:37] You will go deeper for sure.
[00:38:39] But I do want to, I do want to ask you, you know, in your experience as a pastor and you have this chance to kind of speak to other pastors right now.
[00:38:47] What's something or a couple of things that you wish you would have done more of when you were in that lead pastor, kind of in the grind role in that way?
[00:39:00] Looking back, are there some things that are clear to you?
[00:39:04] Wow, that's a really good question.
[00:39:07] I think I would have tried to do what Jesse was just talking about.
[00:39:24] Make those one-on-one conversations more a part of my regular life and protect those.
[00:39:35] Yeah.
[00:39:37] And ones in which there weren't a dual relationship.
[00:39:43] So when I, and I've mentioned this earlier that, that, you know, even I, I served a church that was, you know, a thousand members on the membership role and 35 people on staff.
[00:39:56] And even when I sat down to meet with a staff member that I was always wearing two hats.
[00:40:02] Even if I came in with questions like, Hey, how's your, how's your family?
[00:40:06] How are your kids doing?
[00:40:07] I saw you were at a soccer tournament or whatever.
[00:40:12] Eventually there's, there's always in the back of my mind is, is that I have the head of staff hat on too.
[00:40:17] And there are performance reviews and all that kind of stuff.
[00:40:20] I think I would have tried to find people that I could do that life on life discipleship with that I loved in college ministry.
[00:40:30] But that's the way that I'm wired.
[00:40:32] Yeah.
[00:40:33] Like I talked to a lot of pastors that aren't wired that way.
[00:40:36] And that's far.
[00:40:36] I mean, God makes us differently.
[00:40:38] So some people are more overarching leadership systems thinker and stuff.
[00:40:43] I think, and I, I think I'm kind of wired that way some in, in some respects.
[00:40:48] And I know that when I lose touch with personal discipleship, even if it's just one or two a week or whatever, I quickly lose a sense of why, what we're doing matters.
[00:41:00] And so even for a pastor like me that tends to think more systems and process and, you know, whatever I, if I lose touch with that, that disciple making and, and just that I'm pouring into someone's real life.
[00:41:13] And I noticed that Jason and you and I reflected on this in the pandemic, when we weren't around people, it felt like, what is the point?
[00:41:20] And so even just touching back, even if it's not, you know, you're a pastor at heart.
[00:41:26] I mean, at the deepest core of who you are.
[00:41:28] And I kind of, I'm like, I have to convince myself of self to care sometimes.
[00:41:33] And that's, that's a problem too, probably.
[00:41:34] But to have that context where that relationship is there, I find that life-giving, even if it's not the primary focus.
[00:41:43] I think it's important for all of us as pastors, even if we're a little wired, you know, as, as system minded people.
[00:41:50] So I don't know.
[00:41:51] Anyway.
[00:41:53] So this is really good.
[00:41:54] And I think Jason, we should wrap up the episode and then we'll get some more coaching from Dave to, for a workout of our particular issues.
[00:42:02] What else do you want to say to pastors?
[00:42:04] I mean, if somebody is listening, what do you want them to hear?
[00:42:07] You know, what would you want to say?
[00:42:09] Yeah, I would say I recognize that there are a lot of barriers to pastors with the weekend week out, putting on the worship service and preparing and not to mention the things that come up like memorial services and weddings and crises and all of that, that I know.
[00:42:29] And I felt that finding a place for myself felt selfish and to ask some questions about that because we all need to be poured into.
[00:42:47] And so whether it's a spiritual director or a therapist or somebody like a, you know, standing stone kind of person, I think having that safe space is so vital where you're not concerned or about having to put on a particular kind of face in a, in a space where you think there's an expectation of you.
[00:43:14] I think that that kind of relationship is vital.
[00:43:19] And to, to find out a coach, you know, I was really fortunate to have two different coaches that helped me discern this transition.
[00:43:29] And I'll, I'll, I'll briefly just say kind of the trajectory of my time as a senior pastor went like this.
[00:43:37] And the first, you know, couple of years I was found myself asking, okay, how does somebody be a senior pastor?
[00:43:44] How does somebody be a senior pastor?
[00:43:46] Read the people, talk to wise mentors.
[00:43:49] How do you, how do you do this role?
[00:43:51] And then somewhere around year four or five, I started asking, okay, hold on a minute.
[00:43:57] How do, how do I be a senior pastor?
[00:44:00] Yeah.
[00:44:01] That's, that's a shift because I can't do what you do.
[00:44:06] Uh, I can't do what all, you know, my friends that lead these churches do.
[00:44:11] I'm not wired that way.
[00:44:13] And eventually after kind of leaning into that question for a few years, the final question for me that the men in my life who were coaches said, uh, was this, it's like, should I be a senior pastor?
[00:44:26] There are unique challenges to that role that may not be a good fit for me.
[00:44:33] And that's what I ultimately came up with.
[00:44:34] But it was, it was having people to talk that out with without fear of, of repercussions or like, well, if you're asking those questions, you probably shouldn't be here.
[00:44:44] Let's just let you go.
[00:44:46] You know, it was me being, having a safe place to do that.
[00:44:49] So I, I think that's super important to have in, in a pastor's life, ministry leader's life.
[00:44:57] Yeah, it's really good.
[00:45:00] Well, Dave, thank you so much for your time today, man.
[00:45:02] It's great talking to you.
[00:45:03] I feel like we could probably talk to you for another couple of episodes, but, uh, no, it's great.
[00:45:08] How can people reach out or kind of track with you or, or standing stone?
[00:45:12] Is that, yeah, standing stone.
[00:45:13] The website is standingstone ministry.org.
[00:45:18] And, uh, there, if you go to that website and depending on what part of the country you're in, you press connect with a shepherd in it.
[00:45:26] And I usually funnel it to different people.
[00:45:29] Like I said, there's 260 of us now around the country that are, that are doing that.
[00:45:34] I occasionally write, uh, in a blog on davidjburke.com.
[00:45:39] Uh, not great about it, but, uh, there's other info.
[00:45:43] There's the information about standing stone is also always linked to the stuff that I write about.
[00:45:49] And, and on that, I do write about the things that I'm hearing pastors talk about.
[00:45:55] Um, I love it.
[00:45:56] Your newsletter is good, man.
[00:45:57] Don't sell it short.
[00:45:58] So tell us again, how do we get, how do, if somebody wanted to sign up for that, where would they go?
[00:46:03] Uh, so for the news, my newsletter, if, if they went to, uh, davidjburke.com, uh, and down at the bottom of that, uh, there's a link.
[00:46:17] Through my standing stone website.
[00:46:19] Excellent.
[00:46:19] Nice.
[00:46:19] Yeah.
[00:46:20] Well, we want to connect people in.
[00:46:21] I love, love hearing your updates and what you're working on.
[00:46:24] And, um, I, I appreciate you, Dave.
[00:46:26] I, I really do.
[00:46:27] And all that God has done in my life through you.
[00:46:29] So, um, I know that that is true for, I'll speak for Robbie.
[00:46:33] I know he, we were talking about that and Becky and so many others that you've had an impact on.
[00:46:38] And so we're, we're grateful for you and look forward to seeing what this new season of ministry is going to be like.
[00:46:42] And what God will continue to do in those hidden places of discipleship.
[00:46:47] Yeah.
[00:46:48] Thanks you.
[00:46:48] I've really enjoyed being with both of you on this today.
[00:46:52] Well, Jason, I don't know if you can tell, but I'm a pretty big fan of David Burke.
[00:46:55] I, I, he's had a huge impact on my life and, um, I'm grateful for him, for his ministry, what he's doing now.
[00:47:02] And I got to tell you, it's a great fit.
[00:47:03] So my takeaway really, I think for, for me, for you, for our listeners is if you're a pastor, find a pastor for yourself.
[00:47:13] Yeah.
[00:47:13] Um, we need those, those voices in our life, those places we can go just to kind of get everything out and, uh, be heard and encouraged and, and all that kind of thing.
[00:47:26] That life on life discipleship that we do for others.
[00:47:30] We need that for ourselves too.
[00:47:32] So, um, anyway, that's my takeaway.
[00:47:34] Just as a pastor, have a pastor in your life that can be your pastor.
[00:47:38] Yeah. And this came up when we just in last week's episode, when we were looking at what are the seven things that we sort of discovered in our pastoral interviews this month?
[00:47:47] One of them was, it was all about self-care that self-care is way more important than we realize.
[00:47:53] And it came up again in a big way today that, yeah.
[00:47:57] And so then I think the next logical question is, okay, well then what do I do about it?
[00:48:01] How do I start doing it?
[00:48:02] And I think maybe just a one step to take, if you're going to do one thing, it's to find another pastor who can pastor you or someone who can listen and then speak into your life, whatever that looks like.
[00:48:15] Yeah. And it could be someone in your community, another pastor that's maybe a season further down the road in ministry, or it could be something like Standing Stone.
[00:48:23] And what I love about that ministry is it's a free resource.
[00:48:26] I mean, these guys fundraise and do other things outside of, uh, of their work with pastors so that it can be free pastoral coaching and counseling and care for pastors.
[00:48:36] That's the heart behind it.
[00:48:37] And so if something resonated with what David was saying and you want to connect with him and you're having trouble connecting the dots with Standing Stone or something, just reach out to Jason or I, Jason or Jesse at reclaimleader.com.
[00:48:48] And we'll make sure that to connect the dots for you and make sure you get connected in with those resources.
[00:48:53] But, uh, we need that.
[00:48:55] We need those kinds of voices and that kind of care.
[00:48:57] And I gotta be honest.
[00:48:59] I, as much as you and I are good at caring for each other, we all need like a David Burt kind of.
[00:49:03] Yeah, we absolutely.
[00:49:04] Right.
[00:49:05] Absolutely.
[00:49:05] We kind of encourage each other along the road, but there's, then there's pastors who really have that pastor's heart for other pastors.
[00:49:11] And, um, I love that part of his call and, uh, we're going to dive into an episode, which may then on the back end of it require some pastoral care for us.
[00:49:20] So we might have to have David back on to help us, but, uh, we're going to be talking about, uh, what, what, how do we talk about the election?
[00:49:28] We're coming right up against the election here.
[00:49:30] And on the far side of that, how are you going to talk about it with your people?
[00:49:35] And so Jason, we're going to venture into this territory.
[00:49:39] And I think you and I both are like, should we be doing this?
[00:49:42] I don't know, but we're going to go for it anyway.
[00:49:45] Yeah.
[00:49:45] Yeah.
[00:49:45] And, and the desire here is it's really a pastoral desire for ourselves and helping other pastors who are really struggling with.
[00:49:55] How am I going to talk about this?
[00:49:57] You know, um, so when this episode airs, we'll be a week away from election day.
[00:50:04] And I don't know, the anxiety is starting to go through the roof and it's been a rough political cycle anyway.
[00:50:10] Yeah.
[00:50:10] So how do we, how do we address it with our congregation?
[00:50:13] Maybe you're in a church pastor where this is no big deal.
[00:50:17] You talk about all the time or, or whatever, it's just not a thing, but at least in my context,
[00:50:22] I need to have some real thought about how am I going to address it?
[00:50:26] However it goes.
[00:50:27] So, uh, anyway, our attempt is to be helpful.
[00:50:31] And, uh, and we know there's not gonna be a lot of headspace to think about much else.
[00:50:35] So we figured let's just lean into it, do an episode.
[00:50:38] That's right.
[00:50:38] And we're going to turn the reviews off for this one.
[00:50:41] That's right.
[00:50:42] Don't leave a review based on the.
[00:50:44] Can't wait to be a part of that conversation with you.
[00:50:46] All right, everyone.
[00:50:47] Thanks for being with us.
[00:50:48] As we always say, ministry is hard.
[00:50:49] It is so much better when we do it together.
[00:50:51] Take care.