RL 370: Dreaming Big for 2025 (Part 4: Prioritizing the Work)

[00:00:00] Most churches feel like there's just so many targets we want to hit. Or we're talking about vision and we got like five or six things that we want to do and we don't know where to start. And some of that stuff is chicken and egg stuff. Like, well, if I do this first, I'm going to do this. But if I do this first, I won't be able to do this. So part of it is how do you start unpacking that? How do you kind of throw a process around it so you can figure out how to do that with your leadership?

[00:00:29] Welcome to episode 370. Today we continue our series on Dreaming Big for 2025. How do you develop and launch a vision for your church? One of the biggest challenges is overwhelm. There are so many possible targets. Which one do we do first? How to prioritize the vision? That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington. We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church

[00:01:01] health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us, and some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.

[00:01:19] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. It is so good to be here. We're talking about Dreaming Big, Jesse. Dreaming Big for 2025. And I know it's hard to dream big when

[00:01:31] we're like right in the middle. And I just dream small for a little while. All the Christmas stuff. But I think this is a great time to do it. And even if you just, we've been talking about the last couple of weeks, even if you could just get away, get a little time by yourself, go for a walk, get a notepad, sit in a coffee shop. I do think this pays off because then by the time we do get to the new year, we're kind of ready to go. We're ready to turn the page on what's next. And we already have hit the ground running.

[00:01:58] Yeah. When you create a lot of space or a lot of lead time to creativity, I think even if it just gets the ball rolling, it helps so much. And it's hard to dream as big or dream as clearly when you're really close to what needs to happen, I think. So I like it. I think it is a good time to dream big. And also, we have a lot going on. And so it's kind of holding those things in tension, like we're always doing as leaders in the church.

[00:02:24] It's always the urgent, the important things that are happening right now. And then thinking ahead, thinking in terms of the vision, the direction we're moving in, how do we mobilize a community to be a part of God's work in this world, part of that mission.

[00:02:37] And so today we're talking more about dreaming big, this time in the context of vision and what you're calling prioritizing the vision.

[00:02:45] So I'm looking forward to diving into this and how do we prioritize the vision? We've got a lot of things pulling at us.

[00:02:53] Yeah, I think part of the issue is most churches feel like there's just so many targets we want to hit.

[00:03:02] Or we're talking about vision and we got like five or six things that we want to do and we don't know where to start.

[00:03:08] And some of that stuff is chicken and egg stuff. Like, well, if I do this first, I'm going to do this. But if I do this first, I won't be able to do this.

[00:03:15] So part of it is how do you start unpacking that? How do you kind of throw a process around it so you can figure out how to do that with your leadership?

[00:03:26] And before we jump into that, just again, want to welcome any new listeners with us. We love having new listeners join us.

[00:03:33] It's been so cool hearing recently from folks who listeners to the podcast and what they're getting out of it.

[00:03:40] How to just shout out to Francis in Culver City, California. We had some good conversations.

[00:03:46] And Roger down in Texas, we had some good conversations. So that's been really great.

[00:03:51] And we just want to ask if this podcast has been helpful for you. Will you do us a favor and share it?

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[00:04:07] So thank you so much. All right.

[00:04:10] I think if I were to boil this down to a process, which again, it's not necessarily linear,

[00:04:17] but this is how I usually tackle this when we as a church are working through it.

[00:04:22] I think the first thing you start out, and I've got kind of eight steps here, but I think the first thing is

[00:04:28] to answer the question, what are the key result areas for our big dreams?

[00:04:35] In other words, let's say your big dream is you want to reach young families.

[00:04:39] That was actually my mandate when I was hired here at Tower Hill 12 years ago.

[00:04:43] They said, we need you to reach young families.

[00:04:46] And because they were losing young families like crazy at the time.

[00:04:50] So what are the key result areas for doing that?

[00:04:55] Well, we had to sit down and think about, okay, if we're going to reach young families,

[00:05:00] what are the things that we need to try to do in order to engage them well?

[00:05:06] How do we speak their language?

[00:05:08] How do we understand their hopes and hurts?

[00:05:12] How do we know their dreams and pain points?

[00:05:14] How do we know those things?

[00:05:16] How do we start having conversations with young families to find out what those things are?

[00:05:20] Let's not just assume what they are.

[00:05:22] And then what are the kind of four or five things that we need to develop?

[00:05:26] So for example, here are some things that we came up with.

[00:05:29] We said, well, one thing they're telling us is they want a more contemporary service opportunity.

[00:05:35] At the time, we just had traditional.

[00:05:36] A more contemporary service opportunity with Sunday school together on Sunday morning.

[00:05:42] So the reason they were asking for that is I think to scratch the itch for those who wanted a different kind of worship.

[00:05:47] The previous pastor started doing it on Saturday nights every week.

[00:05:52] And it just wasn't meeting the need because the young families were saying, no, no, no.

[00:05:58] Saturday night is actually terrible for us to bring our kids out.

[00:06:01] And we want a regular like a Sunday morning opportunity with Sundays.

[00:06:05] That was one of the things.

[00:06:06] But those are two things.

[00:06:07] So it's the Sunday morning opportunity.

[00:06:09] And then how are you going to do Sunday school for that new service?

[00:06:13] They wanted the Sunday school to be more engaging.

[00:06:18] And they knew that what we started, we were going to make some hires and create some positions, more positions around youth and children's ministry.

[00:06:27] So right there, that's like that's four or five really big projects that we thought were going to help move the needle dreaming on how do we reach young families.

[00:06:38] So.

[00:06:40] Really, we spent a lot of time discerning, prayerfully discerning, OK, where do we need to start here?

[00:06:49] And here's some questions that we ask.

[00:06:51] So if you if you're kind of leading a process like this, let's say you have your dreams, you got maybe three, four or five, six items that you want to tackle.

[00:07:00] And it might be completely different than what I'm talking about today, but you'll see how the process works.

[00:07:04] I think the first or the second step after you've identified what they are is rate them by importance.

[00:07:12] Which ones are creating the biggest obstacles to church health or which ones, if we don't address them, will prevent us from health?

[00:07:21] Like like what's the what's the overall impact?

[00:07:27] If we don't do this thing.

[00:07:30] Sometimes that's a way to measure.

[00:07:31] I know it's maybe coming at it from a negative starting place, but I guess if you want to flip it to the positive, which one of these things is going to move the needle the most on church health?

[00:07:41] And literally number score them.

[00:07:43] Come up with some number rating one through five and mark them all and come up with most important.

[00:07:48] Don't worry about most complicated.

[00:07:50] That comes later.

[00:07:51] That's right.

[00:07:52] Worry about what's important.

[00:07:54] Yeah.

[00:07:54] Then Jesse, you start doing that what if exercise and you start thinking about how are we going to pull this off?

[00:08:01] Yeah.

[00:08:01] Well, and I think if you get into the weeds too far at that point, you're going to find a lot of reasons why it's not going to work.

[00:08:07] Or what are the unforeseen consequences of this decision or whatever the all the things that people want to ask.

[00:08:14] And so, yeah, just kind of getting the nuts and bolts out.

[00:08:16] And how do you do that?

[00:08:18] So you're talking about rating in order of importance or ranking them.

[00:08:21] Is that something that you do as a leadership team?

[00:08:24] Is that something you're doing personally or everybody kind of together?

[00:08:27] What does that look like?

[00:08:29] It depends on the situation.

[00:08:31] So if it's a smaller thing, I might do that myself and then share and invite feedback from my leadership team.

[00:08:38] Yeah.

[00:08:40] If it's a big thing, I'll invite way more people into that process.

[00:08:44] Like I'll invite our elder board, our session into that process to help rate which ones we all think together are the most important.

[00:08:54] Not that they're not all important, but if we only could do one at a time, what's the order that we would do it in?

[00:09:01] I think it helps bring some clarity.

[00:09:02] Yeah, I think it does.

[00:09:03] And I think what you said there is really important.

[00:09:05] If we could only do one at a time, and it kind of forces you to make a decision about that by ranking them.

[00:09:11] And you can always revisit that and say, hey, I think we might have got these out of order or whatever.

[00:09:15] But it gives you a tool to kind of wrestle through and discern.

[00:09:18] And I'm with you.

[00:09:19] There are times where it's good to solicit feedback from the whole group.

[00:09:22] There are other times where maybe your session, what we call our session is kind of like our board in the Presbyterian world.

[00:09:30] They might not have all the information that you have.

[00:09:33] And so coming in with a, here's my sense of it.

[00:09:36] Does this seem right to you?

[00:09:37] What would you change?

[00:09:39] What did I miss?

[00:09:40] So you can kind of come in with a sense of your sense of the priorities, and then they can provide feedback.

[00:09:46] And you can dialogue off of that.

[00:09:47] If you go in with a clean slate and nothing on the board, sometimes that's hard for a leadership team.

[00:09:52] And they'll go, well, what do you think, Jason?

[00:09:54] Because you're the leader here, and aren't you in the best position to know?

[00:09:57] And so sometimes having a little bit of a direction to that conversation can help.

[00:10:02] Yeah, I'm actually a big fan of that.

[00:10:04] I think what you don't want to do is prescript what it is.

[00:10:08] Right.

[00:10:09] Because then they don't feel part of the process.

[00:10:10] But I do think giving something to work with is hugely important because then it makes everything else go faster.

[00:10:20] And again, people aren't spinning their wheels on stuff that may probably won't work.

[00:10:24] Yeah, a leader's job is kind of to pull those things out, right?

[00:10:27] And say, what I've heard us saying as we've talked and discerned together is these three or four things.

[00:10:33] And my sense of it is these are the priorities.

[00:10:36] What do you think?

[00:10:37] Am I right about that?

[00:10:38] What would you change about that?

[00:10:40] How would you order it differently?

[00:10:41] But maybe that's a way to do that.

[00:10:43] Here's what we've been talking about.

[00:10:45] Did I hear it right?

[00:10:46] And then here's my sense of it.

[00:10:48] What do you think?

[00:10:48] And kind of inviting feedback.

[00:10:50] So I love it, Jason.

[00:10:51] I think that's spot on.

[00:10:53] Yeah.

[00:10:53] So rating them by importance or you might even want to use the word urgency if you don't like the word importance.

[00:10:59] What's kind of the most urgent or what's going to move the needle the most?

[00:11:03] So then the next step, step number three, is to identify what are the actual obstacles to getting it done?

[00:11:10] Like the real obstacle, not the perceived obstacles.

[00:11:12] What are the real obstacles?

[00:11:14] Yeah.

[00:11:14] And then to identify are those internal obstacles or external?

[00:11:18] In other words, are there internal something we can control or external something we can't control?

[00:11:24] For example, if one of the obstacles is the declining attendance pattern of young families in America, that is a trend that is largely outside of our control.

[00:11:35] That is an external factor.

[00:11:38] However, the quality of my sermon would be an internal factor.

[00:11:44] That is something that I can control.

[00:11:47] So I think that's helpful.

[00:11:49] You can identify all the obstacles you want.

[00:11:51] And I think the more, the better.

[00:11:53] So you really understand and figure out what's going on.

[00:11:56] But to really label, hey, these are things we can't really control, but let's focus on the things that we can.

[00:12:03] And that, again, creates clarity.

[00:12:06] So, for example, what are some possible obstacles, Jesse?

[00:12:10] Some are like, well, what are, if, let's say we're going to start a new worship service, what are the expectations of our current members?

[00:12:18] Is there a lack of clarity with staff or elders or volunteers?

[00:12:21] Is there lack of a plan?

[00:12:23] Is there a lack of resources or perceived lack of resources?

[00:12:26] Do we have outdated systems that won't enable it to work?

[00:12:31] What are those possible obstacles?

[00:12:33] Is that something that you guys do when you have a big decision?

[00:12:36] Yeah, for sure.

[00:12:37] And I think you can do it in a way that is light and fun and not accusatory.

[00:12:41] And I think that the way that this derails is when it feels like an attack on the existing church the way that it is.

[00:12:48] And I've made this mistake plenty of times, Jason, where I've stepped on something that genuinely is probably an obstacle but needed to be thought of differently.

[00:12:57] And so I've tended to, in this part of the conversation, try to make it lighter.

[00:13:02] Start with myself.

[00:13:03] How am I an obstacle in this?

[00:13:05] And I'm often the administrative bottleneck for really good ideas.

[00:13:08] So talking through some of that stuff and kind of owning my part first helps us to be honest about other things.

[00:13:15] And then you can kind of have fun with it.

[00:13:17] You know, like, yeah, the peeling paint is probably not good or whatever the things.

[00:13:20] And then I think the other piece with the kind of naming the obstacles and getting it out there is now you're working with a problem solution mindset.

[00:13:30] How can we overcome some of those things?

[00:13:32] And that's where we're going to go here.

[00:13:33] But, you know, the obstacle piece is you can't if you skip this part of the conversation, you're going to start slamming into stuff and wonder what's going on.

[00:13:42] So important part of the conversation for sure.

[00:13:44] Yeah.

[00:13:45] And to be perfectly honest, there are a lot of obstacles.

[00:13:47] I don't even realize they're there.

[00:13:49] That's your point.

[00:13:50] And so just processing it together helps me understand, OK, if I'm going to step on a landmine, I want to at least know it's there.

[00:13:57] Yeah. And I imagine for many of our churches, the landmines are something related to the change we're going to ask our congregation to make that cuts against the long established identity of the church or something like that.

[00:14:13] So one of the ways to mitigate that is to talk about vision and legacy and bring those things together.

[00:14:18] And we've talked about this the last couple of episodes, but you can point to examples in your past of times when the church was willing to risk for the sake of change.

[00:14:27] And so let's risk it again.

[00:14:29] But one of the obstacles is getting people to be willing to try.

[00:14:33] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:14:35] All right.

[00:14:35] Number four.

[00:14:36] So what would it then take one by one?

[00:14:40] What would it take to push past these obstacles?

[00:14:43] That's the next question.

[00:14:44] What what would need to happen for us to do that?

[00:14:48] And that's when things take a turn.

[00:14:51] I think sometimes when you're talking about obstacles, it can get a little sad for people.

[00:14:57] Yeah.

[00:14:57] But I think here's where it turns toward excitement.

[00:15:01] And that is, OK, we've addressed it.

[00:15:05] And now we let's what are we going to do about it?

[00:15:08] And I think it's important to see, like, if there's something we want to do, some big initiative we want to do, and there's some obstacles we just have no control over.

[00:15:16] And they look like they're going to really stop the thing from happening.

[00:15:20] We should pay attention to that.

[00:15:22] We should pay attention to that.

[00:15:23] So but also it's very revealing for our teams when they see, oh, wait a minute, that obstacle isn't as big as maybe I thought it was.

[00:15:33] In fact, it's relatively easy, we think, to push through it.

[00:15:37] Yeah.

[00:15:38] Yeah.

[00:15:38] Yeah.

[00:15:38] And in some ways, an obstacle can be an opportunity, right?

[00:15:41] We get to go, oh, we can do this.

[00:15:42] We can overcome that thing.

[00:15:43] And my daughter's running cross country this year.

[00:15:46] And one of her races was around the track.

[00:15:49] And so she was like, awesome.

[00:15:50] I don't have to worry about slipping in the grass or running around the track.

[00:15:53] Well, we get to the race and there are hay bales every 200 meters that they have to jump over these unforeseen obstacles.

[00:16:01] But in the end, she ran her best race of the year because she sped up every time to jump over the hay bale and then continued that speed.

[00:16:10] And so sometimes obstacles, when we overcome them or what might go, wow, I wasn't expecting that.

[00:16:16] But now we're getting past it actually can create some really cool momentum.

[00:16:19] So obstacles are opportunities.

[00:16:22] Sometimes they really get us stuck.

[00:16:24] And that's a different conversation.

[00:16:25] But a lot of times obstacles can be opportunities.

[00:16:28] So I love that.

[00:16:29] Let's solve it together.

[00:16:30] What can we do to overcome this obstacle?

[00:16:33] Yeah.

[00:16:35] So back to our list, whatever that vision is for you, now you've got a little thought around each one.

[00:16:42] You're starting to get the understanding of the importance of each one.

[00:16:46] And then I think you really asked the question deeply, number five, if we do nothing, where can this end up?

[00:16:54] If we do nothing.

[00:16:55] If we choose what's the opportunity cost of doing nothing.

[00:17:00] And for us, when we were going through all that, how do we reach young families?

[00:17:04] It's, well, this church is going to end as soon as the builders and boomers are done.

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:10] It's going to be over.

[00:17:12] And that coupled with my kids and grandkids aren't going to have a church.

[00:17:18] Yeah.

[00:17:20] Really got people interested in doing something about it.

[00:17:23] Yeah.

[00:17:24] Because there's a true connection to their real life and their lived experience for sure.

[00:17:28] Yeah.

[00:17:30] Opportunity cost.

[00:17:31] Yeah.

[00:17:31] One of my biggest pet peeves as a little league coach is when someone goes down looking, just swing the bat.

[00:17:37] Give yourself a chance.

[00:17:38] It's like doing nothing and hoping for a walk.

[00:17:42] Like, that's no way to live.

[00:17:43] That's what I tell those guys.

[00:17:44] I'm like, that's no way to live.

[00:17:46] Get out there, try it and go.

[00:17:47] But thinking about the opportunity cost, I think, is crucial because it repositions our mindset about risking.

[00:17:56] So, would you rather die slowly or take a shot and go for it?

[00:18:00] Let's try it.

[00:18:02] So, I think the outcome of those conversations, I don't know.

[00:18:04] Have you ever had one go towards we're not going to do anything?

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:09] And then I sort of go a little bit Old Testament on them.

[00:18:14] That's right.

[00:18:15] No, I mean, truth be told, what I'll say is, I won't say it like I'm going to say it now.

[00:18:20] I'll say it much better than when I'm with them.

[00:18:24] But the gist of it is, what sort of account are we going to give to God over this faith we've been entrusted in and our unwillingness to do whatever it takes to reach the next generation?

[00:18:39] What's our answer going to be?

[00:18:40] Is our answer going to be, oh, we didn't have any money or we didn't want to mess with our favorite worship style?

[00:18:50] Really?

[00:18:51] Is that going to be our answer?

[00:18:52] Because if so, we're in trouble.

[00:18:55] Not that we're going to get punished or anything like that.

[00:18:57] But I do think if we're going to be faithful at all to the Great Commission, if we're going to be faithful at all to who we were created to be and for what purpose, we've got to be willing, as you said, to take a swing.

[00:19:12] To risk and trust.

[00:19:14] I mean, this is foundational in our faith.

[00:19:17] So, it totally, totally is.

[00:19:18] And we get back.

[00:19:19] I mean, think about the Sermon on the Mount.

[00:19:21] Seek first the kingdom and the rest will be given.

[00:19:25] So, it's like if we're pursuing the mission and we spend ourselves in that worthy cause, then okay.

[00:19:32] But let's go for it.

[00:19:33] Let's at least try it.

[00:19:35] And I think that's the difference between, and we were talking about this on the implementation side in the series.

[00:19:41] We're talking about dreaming big and bringing them to life is, let's try some things and get the reputation of follow through and start to feel the momentum of that.

[00:19:51] But if we just sit still, none of that's going to happen.

[00:19:54] We're never going to get the taste of the crack of the bat when the ball hits and goes.

[00:19:58] You know, it's just, it's no way to live.

[00:20:00] So, I'm going to steal that speech, Jason.

[00:20:02] I like that.

[00:20:03] It was a testament on people a little bit.

[00:20:05] That wasn't very old testament.

[00:20:06] Well, you know, I was measured.

[00:20:09] But I would be firm in that situation.

[00:20:11] And I've had to be.

[00:20:13] And listen, we have a very democratic leadership process.

[00:20:16] So, they could outvote me at any time.

[00:20:17] But it doesn't mean I'm not going to speak what I really believe.

[00:20:20] Yeah, and you have a lot of weight, right?

[00:20:23] In leadership, you got to be wise about when to push your leadership chips on the table, so to speak, or whatever.

[00:20:29] Cash it in.

[00:20:30] There are times when it's worth sticking your neck out there and saying, we're going to go for this.

[00:20:34] And I think people respond to that kind of leadership when it's wise and well-designed.

[00:20:40] So, back to our church's list when we started.

[00:20:44] Here were our things and here's how we ranked them.

[00:20:48] So, number, I'll go backwards.

[00:20:50] Well, no, I'll go forward.

[00:20:52] So, the first thing was we felt the number one priority was to develop a more contemporary worship service.

[00:20:57] Because we thought that would be get more opportunity for kids in Sunday school and everything.

[00:21:03] So, although we knew it was important to change the Sunday school, we wanted to figure out what's the overall growth engine of engaging young families.

[00:21:12] We should probably do that first.

[00:21:14] Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:14] Then, second was we thought to put our money into people even more than programs is what sort of hires do we need to make on our children slash youth team?

[00:21:27] Because if you have the right people, they can overcome some of the obstacles if they're really good.

[00:21:32] Absolutely, yeah.

[00:21:33] Then, third was develop a more engaging Sunday school model.

[00:21:38] And we thought that'd be good to have the staff on board to do that.

[00:21:42] And by staff, I mean like super part-time, like five hours a week, ten hours a week.

[00:21:47] Then, lastly, we knew we needed to remodel or repurpose some areas for children's Sunday school.

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:53] And that was everything from painting to new furniture and stuff like that.

[00:21:58] But we thought, again, that was the least priority.

[00:22:01] But now you're going to ask this question.

[00:22:03] This is the time you ask it.

[00:22:05] Is you've rated everything on importance.

[00:22:09] Now, rate them on complexity and cost.

[00:22:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:14] So, you know, one through five or whatever.

[00:22:16] You know, one being not complicated or costly at all and five being, you know, very much so.

[00:22:23] Rate them.

[00:22:25] You want to do this now because probably your most important thing is going to be the most complex and the most costly.

[00:22:33] And you just want to know that going in.

[00:22:35] If we tackle this thing first like we think we should, we really don't have room to do other stuff.

[00:22:40] This is the thing.

[00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:42] Um, and it prevents you from scattering your resources too much because when you do that, you start running out of human resources and funding.

[00:22:50] Then you're not able to get the ball across the goal line at all.

[00:22:56] So, yeah.

[00:22:57] So, rating them on complexity and cost.

[00:23:00] I love it.

[00:23:00] And then you're being, you kind of know what you're getting yourself into, I think is the way to look at that.

[00:23:05] And I think that's really important, Jason, because it clarifies other decisions.

[00:23:10] And I think that was your point.

[00:23:11] Other things that could compete for those resources, so to speak, or could pull them away.

[00:23:17] You get to say no, not just to be mean or because you don't like it, but because there is a different mission purpose that we're working on right now.

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:26] So, we're going to prioritize this.

[00:23:27] And that means saying no to this or that or some other things.

[00:23:31] And we love doing things in phases.

[00:23:33] And that's the language we use.

[00:23:35] Yep.

[00:23:36] We say we have this plan, let's say, to do these five things.

[00:23:39] Here's phase one.

[00:23:40] Here's phase two.

[00:23:41] Here's phase three.

[00:23:41] We think if we space them out this way, we can afford it.

[00:23:44] And we'll have room in our lives amidst all the other things we do just to get Sunday to Sunday.

[00:23:50] Yeah.

[00:23:52] And so, we talk about, okay, this is phase one.

[00:23:54] Phase two.

[00:23:54] What it does is it gives people a chance to breathe.

[00:23:58] People feel a lot more relaxed because we don't have to get to everything right away.

[00:24:03] If we get to something early because we finished phase one early, then that's awesome, but not necessary according to our plan.

[00:24:09] Yeah.

[00:24:10] And I think when you're doing the phased approach too, one of the things I tend to include in the phases is the opportunity to evaluate and debrief as we go along.

[00:24:20] So, having a phased approach, you get to kind of stop and take stock.

[00:24:23] Is it working like we thought?

[00:24:24] Is it the right direction?

[00:24:25] Is this still the priority?

[00:24:27] And then move to phase two.

[00:24:28] So, if you try and do it all at once, it's kind of an all-in move or something like that.

[00:24:34] It can overwhelm and whatever.

[00:24:36] But having a phased approach, I think there's some upside to ongoing evaluation, improving and making it better as you go too.

[00:24:44] So, I love that phased approach.

[00:24:45] It's good stuff, Jason.

[00:24:47] All right.

[00:24:47] We're to our last two steps.

[00:24:48] The next one is, okay, now that we have all this prioritized, we know what we're going to do and we start figuring out when we're going to start it and all of that.

[00:24:58] I like to see a little bit of quick action here.

[00:25:02] Not hastiness, but is there any, and I know it's cliche at this point to talk about, but it's cliche because it's true, low-hanging fruit.

[00:25:11] Sure.

[00:25:11] Are there ways to do something toward our goal right now or soon?

[00:25:20] And, like, for example, let's say, okay, we want to start a new worship style, but you know what we're going to do in the meantime?

[00:25:26] We're going to sort of tease it and we're going to think of what's a date in the next two months where we could just do, like, a Saturday night contemporary worship time.

[00:25:34] And, like, maybe it's a special thing for the kids.

[00:25:38] Or let's try a one-off on a Sunday morning and give people a taste or something.

[00:25:44] Or even if you don't have the energy for that, it's, hey, we're going to introduce some contemporary music into the traditional service and just let people know what it's like and so they're not scared of the unknown.

[00:25:56] That's right.

[00:25:57] Right?

[00:25:57] What's something that, is there some low-hanging fruit in whatever the area is that you're working on?

[00:26:02] Yeah, make a step or some progress towards it.

[00:26:05] Proof of concept.

[00:26:06] Yeah, just kind of getting it in the direction and say, hey, we're serious about this and we're not just talking about it.

[00:26:10] We're moving in this direction.

[00:26:12] So what we want is some motion, right?

[00:26:14] And low-hanging fruit or finding something that's a step towards it, even if it's not the full idea yet or something.

[00:26:21] It says we're serious and we are moving and we're excited about it.

[00:26:25] And it kind of gets people going, oh, okay, we really mean it this time.

[00:26:28] Because sometimes churches are long on ideas and short on follow-through.

[00:26:33] And so some movement can show, hey, no, we're really doing this.

[00:26:36] Yeah.

[00:26:37] And then lastly, and this is a question I like to ask everybody who's part of your team and maybe pastors out there.

[00:26:44] If you're a solo pastor, your team is your elder board or maybe you have a few key volunteers.

[00:26:49] If you're a pastor of a midsize or larger church, you might have a staff or leadership team director positions or whatever.

[00:26:55] But this is the question I like to ask everybody in the room.

[00:26:57] I start out by saying, this is what I'm going to do this week.

[00:27:03] What is one thing everyone could do this week to move us closer to this goal?

[00:27:10] Yeah.

[00:27:10] What one small step can you take?

[00:27:12] Maybe it's just having a conversation with somebody about it.

[00:27:15] Maybe it's, oh, you know what?

[00:27:16] I'm going to do a little number crunching.

[00:27:18] Or maybe it's, I'm going to connect with this parent and see what they think about it.

[00:27:23] Just some kind of small thing that everyone can self-identify as something they can do.

[00:27:28] Yeah.

[00:27:29] I like that.

[00:27:30] From the beginning, I think so important.

[00:27:31] You want to build that muscle that everybody's part of it and everyone's working on it.

[00:27:36] They're not just waiting for the pastor to figure it all out and hand it to them.

[00:27:39] They're actually participating.

[00:27:41] That's really good wisdom, Jason.

[00:27:42] It gets everybody deeper buy-in.

[00:27:44] The more involved they are, the more they're going to believe in it and get excited about it.

[00:27:47] Yeah.

[00:27:48] Really good.

[00:27:49] And thinking in terms of what can you do this week?

[00:27:51] Gives it a timeliness.

[00:27:52] Not what can you do in the next six months or what can we put on an annual goal sheet?

[00:27:57] But like right now, what's something small?

[00:27:59] I really like that.

[00:28:00] A bite-sized thing.

[00:28:02] Yeah.

[00:28:02] Bite-sized thing.

[00:28:03] I love it.

[00:28:04] Good stuff.

[00:28:04] All right.

[00:28:05] So hopefully that helps.

[00:28:06] And I hope everyone's enjoyed this series as we're talking about Dreaming Big for 2025.

[00:28:11] And if you ever have any questions, I mean, Jesse and I, we love to talk and clearly.

[00:28:16] And we got really good ideas for everybody else.

[00:28:18] Now, I tell you, you reach out to us.

[00:28:20] So we'll give you a lot of things.

[00:28:22] And then we'll kind of look at it.

[00:28:23] And it's harder sometimes to lead your own situation.

[00:28:27] That's the truth.

[00:28:28] I love coaching and talking with people and just saying, hey, how's it going?

[00:28:31] How can I help you process?

[00:28:32] So I know you and I both love that, Jason.

[00:28:34] Yeah.

[00:28:35] And by the way, Jesse and I are going to sit down and probably think about what are some

[00:28:39] opportunities for coaching in 2025?

[00:28:41] Because Jesse has not only to have all this experience, but he's been trained.

[00:28:47] And so it's cool.

[00:28:48] It's a neat opportunity.

[00:28:50] Just I think we all need coaching.

[00:28:52] I don't care how long you've been in ministry.

[00:28:54] I need somebody speaking into my life to help me get through some of these obstacles because,

[00:29:00] I don't know, it just creates clarity and confidence.

[00:29:04] So I think it's great.

[00:29:05] And like we say, it's just we love talking about this stuff.

[00:29:11] It's so good.

[00:29:12] So thanks, everyone, for listening.

[00:29:13] And man, we're wrapping up the year.

[00:29:16] It is in real time.

[00:29:18] Next week is Christmas.

[00:29:19] When this comes out, it's going to be Christmas.

[00:29:22] Yeah, Merry Christmas.

[00:29:23] Man, Merry Christmas.

[00:29:25] And I hope everyone in your big planning for Christmas Eve services and all of that is

[00:29:30] going well.

[00:29:31] And next week, we'll just do a quickie episode on Christmas.

[00:29:34] I mean, literally, it's probably like 10 minutes because you're not going to have time to do

[00:29:37] anything else.

[00:29:37] That's right.

[00:29:38] And then we'll do kind of a year-end review here on the 31st.

[00:29:42] But man, may God bless you as you close out 2024 and look ahead to 2025.

[00:29:50] Any last thoughts before we sign off today, Jesse?

[00:29:52] We're just grateful.

[00:29:53] Thanks for tuning in and being a part of the conversation with us.

[00:29:56] And really, just two pastors talking shop, working in the trenches.

[00:30:00] And so we get it.

[00:30:02] We're with you and are rooting for you.

[00:30:04] All right, everyone.

[00:30:05] Ministry is hard.

[00:30:06] It is so much better when we do it together.

[00:30:08] Take care and Merry Christmas.

[00:30:09] Bye.