[00:00:00] Well, as part of the leader's job is to define reality. And sometimes we're so close to the project, it gets hard to see it clearly. And maybe our emotions cloud our judgment or we're just so close to it, we can't really see what's missing or what's going well the way that we once could. So I love it. Yeah, not a shocker that that's number one. It's just such an important conversation for us to be having.
[00:00:22] Welcome to episode 372 and happy new year, everyone. It's 2025 or if you're listening in real time, almost 2025. And before we look ahead, we have an annual tradition of looking back on our top five episodes of 2024. It's full of really great highlights and reminders as we head into the new year. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:50] Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker.
[00:00:54] And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:55] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact.
[00:01:01] We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that worked for us.
[00:01:04] And some that didn't.
[00:01:06] Best practices and practical tools for church leadership.
[00:01:09] The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started.
[00:01:16] Hey everyone. Hey, it is almost the new year.
[00:01:19] I'm going to go ahead and say it. Happy New Year. It's New Year's Eve in real time.
[00:01:23] It's not quite 2025, but maybe you're listening to this as you're relaxing on the beach somewhere.
[00:01:28] It's all pastors do. They go to exotic places and put their feet. Okay, maybe not.
[00:01:34] But listen, wherever you're doing, maybe you're sitting in a coffee shop.
[00:01:36] I hope you're taking some time for yourself. We just want to wish you a happy new year.
[00:01:41] And this is it, Jesse. This is our traditional like look back at the top episodes of the year before we look forward to 2025.
[00:01:48] First of all, how was your Christmas? Was it good?
[00:01:51] Well, you know, I think so.
[00:01:54] There's a lot of moving pieces at Christmastime.
[00:01:56] So in some ways, it's like this deep breath on the far side of it.
[00:01:59] And I love kind of the opportunity to turn the page.
[00:02:02] Think New Year, kind of go on.
[00:02:04] And there's something about the Christmas season that kind of puts a concluding sort of punchline on the year.
[00:02:12] And then we kind of go.
[00:02:13] And so I really do like the new year.
[00:02:16] I also like the breath of fresh, kind of just a deep breath between Christmas and New Year.
[00:02:20] So hopefully everybody got that.
[00:02:22] And now we're looking ahead.
[00:02:23] So Happy New Year.
[00:02:25] And I can't wait to hear one of this.
[00:02:27] One of my favorite things, Jason.
[00:02:28] What were our top five episodes?
[00:02:31] And what were we talking about?
[00:02:33] Because sometimes it's hard to know, you know, what's interesting.
[00:02:36] What are the things that we're poking at that are worthwhile?
[00:02:39] Yeah.
[00:02:39] And it's honestly, when I went back and I kind of saw the stats and I dug back into the episodes, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember this one.
[00:02:47] Oh, that was pretty good.
[00:02:48] It's funny.
[00:02:49] It wasn't that long ago.
[00:02:49] But it feels like a lot of times.
[00:02:53] Yeah.
[00:02:54] I couldn't even guess.
[00:02:55] I couldn't even guess what these top five are going to be.
[00:02:58] I know.
[00:02:58] And there may be not.
[00:03:00] Maybe a couple you could guess were in the top five.
[00:03:03] So I'm just curious.
[00:03:05] So, okay.
[00:03:05] Top five episodes.
[00:03:06] Any idea?
[00:03:07] I'll give you a hint.
[00:03:09] Okay.
[00:03:10] Three out of the five we had guests on.
[00:03:14] Okay.
[00:03:14] Can you remember who we had in the last year?
[00:03:17] I can barely remember.
[00:03:18] Three in the next.
[00:03:19] I couldn't either.
[00:03:20] Well, I could remember a couple and two of them are on here.
[00:03:22] Okay.
[00:03:23] We'll save it.
[00:03:24] We'll save the suspense here.
[00:03:25] But we're going to go back.
[00:03:26] And I think it's good.
[00:03:27] And maybe pastors, I don't know if you are in this too.
[00:03:31] I think it's good to look back at this last year of ministry and to kind of sift through it and figure what are some things that we really loved and what are some things that we thought could have been better as we look ahead to 2025.
[00:03:44] So we're doing the same thing.
[00:03:46] I love it.
[00:03:47] Okay.
[00:03:47] Top five.
[00:03:47] We're going to count it down.
[00:03:49] And what we're going to do is we're going to listen to a short excerpt of each one.
[00:03:52] And we're going to talk a little bit about each one.
[00:03:55] So number five, we're going to go in reverse order because that's way more dramatic and interesting.
[00:04:00] Number five was from a blog post we stole from Dan Ryland.
[00:04:07] And at the time we said we we you made a comment.
[00:04:11] It didn't show up in this clip, but it was great.
[00:04:13] I was laughing.
[00:04:13] You said we should do a whole podcast on things we stole from Dan Ryland.
[00:04:19] That's right.
[00:04:20] Totally.
[00:04:20] I really enjoyed that comment.
[00:04:22] Yeah.
[00:04:22] Yeah.
[00:04:22] He's the best.
[00:04:23] Seven practical questions to evaluate your church ministries was the blog.
[00:04:27] We changed it a lot by saying church programs.
[00:04:33] Right.
[00:04:34] But listen, we acknowledged our source material and we had I think there was just a lot of good insights on how do you evaluate what's going on your church so that you know what's working, what's not working, what do we need to tweak.
[00:04:48] So here's an excerpt from our conversations together.
[00:04:52] This is episode 348.
[00:04:54] If anybody wants to hear the whole thing.
[00:04:56] Seven practical questions to evaluate church programs.
[00:05:02] Yeah.
[00:05:02] So the question he asked on the front end of the blog post is he says, when was the last time you conducted a ministry audit or, you know, maybe a rephrase ways.
[00:05:13] When was the last time you took a look at all the programs that you offer as a church?
[00:05:17] And how they're doing, like, are they meeting the goals that you have?
[00:05:22] Do you actually have goals that are set for these things?
[00:05:24] Are they just things that have continued because we just do them every year?
[00:05:28] I think this is really important to figure out.
[00:05:32] And here's why it has everything to do with forward movement and stewardship.
[00:05:38] Are you being good stewards of the mission and vision that God has given you and your church?
[00:05:44] Are you making sure that all of our ministry programs are rowing in the same direction?
[00:05:50] That they're not competing against each other, either intentionally or unintentionally?
[00:05:54] Are they helping us move where we feel like God's calling us to go?
[00:05:59] There's a lot at stake with trying to figure out what are we doing and is it in alignment with all this stuff?
[00:06:06] So I think this is a really important exercise to do from time to time.
[00:06:09] And maybe you want to up Periscope maybe a couple times a year and just say, hey, are these things that we're doing working on all these different levels?
[00:06:18] Do you guys have a regular rhythm of this or it's just kind of every once in a while?
[00:06:22] Yeah, I think we have more of an anecdotal or on occasion as the need arises kind of approach to this.
[00:06:29] And I wonder if there's a more systematic way to build it into the rhythm of the year to do a better job on an ongoing basis.
[00:06:37] Usually these conversations show up around budget time.
[00:06:40] What are we going to find next year?
[00:06:42] What are we doing?
[00:06:42] And I wonder, I don't know, this is just me making this up as we're talking, but I wonder if decoupling those things sometimes to evaluate our programs for mission effectiveness, apart from a conversation about funding for the next year.
[00:06:57] Maybe that's a better approach because a lot of our evaluation is who's going to get what dollars and what are they going to need?
[00:07:03] And we end up kind of just moving things plus or minus a few percentage points ahead into the next year.
[00:07:09] And that can be kind of a slippery slope of complacency if we're not careful.
[00:07:15] Nice.
[00:07:15] Yeah.
[00:07:16] Oh, man.
[00:07:17] Sometimes I have good things to say.
[00:07:18] I thought that was good.
[00:07:20] Yeah, that's pretty.
[00:07:21] I'm kind of a personal accountability.
[00:07:23] I'm like, how did I do this year?
[00:07:24] Well, right in the middle of budget stuff right now and we're moving the needle up and down a little bit on stuff.
[00:07:28] But evaluation, man, that's really important to think about.
[00:07:32] How do we know what success looks like?
[00:07:34] What are the outcomes that we are hoping to see?
[00:07:37] Do we have any sense of how that's going?
[00:07:39] And I think it can be something that it doesn't have to be this tremendous, maybe massive organizational strategic plan that you do.
[00:07:48] But what are you doing to kind of keep an eye on things and get a sense of is it working or is it not?
[00:07:54] So I love that we talked about that.
[00:07:56] Dan, of course, has us thinking in that direction.
[00:07:59] Yeah.
[00:08:00] I wonder why.
[00:08:00] What do you think it is?
[00:08:03] I suspect it just has to do with energy as to why pastors don't encourage either they themselves or don't encourage any staff or volunteers to do this on a regular basis.
[00:08:14] It's just maybe because it feels like, hey, we crossed the finish line of this weekend.
[00:08:18] Now it's on to the next thing.
[00:08:21] And maybe you don't have the energy to look back.
[00:08:23] I don't know.
[00:08:24] What do you think?
[00:08:24] It could be that.
[00:08:25] It could be sometimes is a good enough is good enough mentality because we're worn out and it wasn't horrible.
[00:08:32] So let's, you know, whatever.
[00:08:33] But I think often it's that we didn't get into ministry to run an organization.
[00:08:38] We got into ministry because we love people and we love God's word and we want to focus on that part of our call.
[00:08:43] And yet here is these sort of organizational tactics or strategies that are going to really make the mission effective.
[00:08:50] And so are we as mindful to the administrative aspects as we are to the cultivation of relationships and the proclamation of God's word?
[00:08:57] Yeah.
[00:08:58] I guess for me, too, it's like I want to know why something worked or didn't work.
[00:09:02] Yeah.
[00:09:03] So that you could either repeat it or fix it.
[00:09:06] And I think it's just a curiosity thing.
[00:09:08] Like when something goes, oh, you're just like, what?
[00:09:10] Why did that?
[00:09:11] Why did that resonate with people?
[00:09:13] What was it about that?
[00:09:14] We thought it might.
[00:09:15] But what was it?
[00:09:17] What are people saying?
[00:09:18] Right.
[00:09:18] That kind of thing.
[00:09:18] And I think that's really helpful to know as you, you know, try to engage better.
[00:09:23] I love it.
[00:09:24] All right.
[00:09:25] So that was number five.
[00:09:26] Number four was a guest, actually two guests, Stan Ott and Lee Ziemer, episode 329, How to Help Your People Move from Greeting to Engaging.
[00:09:39] Yeah.
[00:09:39] Nice.
[00:09:40] And that was a great conversation.
[00:09:41] As you remember now.
[00:09:42] I just didn't remember it being this year.
[00:09:44] Man, that's a was that when was that?
[00:09:46] Episode 329 was early in the year.
[00:09:48] Yeah.
[00:09:48] That was, you know, it's not just you.
[00:09:51] This this is probably like February ish.
[00:09:53] OK.
[00:09:54] All right.
[00:09:54] Well, I'm getting older every day, Jason.
[00:09:56] It's harder to keep track of it.
[00:09:58] I love it.
[00:09:58] That was a really good conversation.
[00:10:00] It stuck with me.
[00:10:01] Feels like a lifetime ago.
[00:10:02] OK, hey, let's listen to a little bit.
[00:10:03] We were talking about, you know, what are some strategies?
[00:10:07] What are some things that you do in church to get people in the habit of engaging, not just, you know, saying hello on a Sunday morning.
[00:10:13] And this this excerpt that I thought was interesting, sort of an old school way of doing it.
[00:10:19] But I think it from it sounds like really effective.
[00:10:22] So let me play that for you.
[00:10:26] I was in this congregate, wonderful congregation in Pittsburgh.
[00:10:30] And one year I had them all stand up in the middle of the sermon, which is great fun because everybody's like, what?
[00:10:37] We don't do that.
[00:10:39] And I said, I want you to turn and just say to your neighbor, welcome.
[00:10:43] I'm glad you're here.
[00:10:45] And so they all did that.
[00:10:46] And then I said, now, I would like to invite you to say that to every human you bump into on this property, even if you've known them 30 years.
[00:10:57] So this goes on for a year.
[00:10:59] And then I have them do it again.
[00:11:00] And I said, I'd like you now to say to each other, welcome.
[00:11:04] I'm glad you're here.
[00:11:05] I hope you feel welcome.
[00:11:06] And just add the I hope you feel welcome.
[00:11:09] So they all do that.
[00:11:11] Say it to every human you bump into, whether you've known them 30 years or not.
[00:11:16] And so one of the people in the church had a social party a few months later.
[00:11:23] And 20 people, half were from the church, 10 people, half from the neighborhood.
[00:11:28] And without even thinking, she said to her gathered guests, welcome.
[00:11:33] I'm glad you're here.
[00:11:34] And half of them replied, and we hope you feel welcome.
[00:11:39] The other half were like, what?
[00:11:42] That's funny.
[00:11:42] But I was thrilled because what it meant was they got it.
[00:11:49] You can hear us chuckling in the background.
[00:11:51] I love that.
[00:11:52] We're having a good time listening to Santa.
[00:11:54] What a vision for mobilizing people to be the mechanism through which warmth and welcome comes, rather than thinking, what is our call to worship going to look like?
[00:12:05] How do we get our parking lot just right?
[00:12:07] I mean, there's other things that matter.
[00:12:09] But if you can get all of us as a community to have that shared warmth and welcome, I think that's so cool.
[00:12:15] I thought that was just a great reminder of making sure to stick with the basics.
[00:12:19] Like it's about the people.
[00:12:21] And it's easy for us to sort of, well, I'll speak for myself.
[00:12:24] It's easy for me to focus on other things that may be important because I assume that people part is happening.
[00:12:31] But I think what this reminded me was don't assume that.
[00:12:34] Like really be intentional about how you're helping people to truly engage with one another.
[00:12:40] So I thought that was great.
[00:12:42] And it wasn't one of those responses like, oh man, you know, how are we ever going to do that?
[00:12:48] Or how are we ever going to make that happen?
[00:12:50] It was so practical and accessible, which is basically.
[00:12:54] Some people are going to roll their eyes at you and the introverts in the room are going to be like, how dare you?
[00:12:59] And all whatever.
[00:12:59] But the idea of creating a culture of warmth and welcome.
[00:13:03] I love that.
[00:13:04] And truly, if you think about it, are the stream of the church.
[00:13:08] There's new people coming in all the time.
[00:13:10] There's people, you know, either passing away or they're moving on.
[00:13:14] And so it's having, revisiting those basic things that we assume should be happening.
[00:13:20] I love that.
[00:13:21] I think that's just really good.
[00:13:22] Like let's remember that we are here to have a really strong, warm welcome for each other.
[00:13:27] Even if you've been here 30 years.
[00:13:29] I love it.
[00:13:29] That's so cool.
[00:13:30] Yeah.
[00:13:31] All right.
[00:13:32] So number three is another guest.
[00:13:36] Next episode 326, Carl Vader's and the secret to healthy churches of any size.
[00:13:42] This was a great conversation.
[00:13:44] Yeah.
[00:13:44] Carl would encourage people to go back and listen to this whole thing.
[00:13:46] It was actually before his book, Desizing the Church came out, which we didn't get a chance
[00:13:52] to follow up with him yet on the book itself more.
[00:13:55] We were a little early in this conversation, but he had so many great and challenging things
[00:14:00] to say.
[00:14:01] I mean, just the idea that it's about healthy church, not big church.
[00:14:07] And it was just a wonderful reminder.
[00:14:10] It's one of those like we all would agree with it, but we could all use a reminding of it.
[00:14:16] So I'm going to play a bit of our conversation with Carl.
[00:14:21] He said, don't expect you're going to go through this process, small church, and you're going
[00:14:25] to be a booming, numerically growing.
[00:14:30] You're not going to go from zero to a hundred.
[00:14:32] You actually had a really nice little diagram of a continuum.
[00:14:35] And you're like, you're not going to go from like a negative 10 toxic church to a plus
[00:14:40] 10 very healthy church in a hundred days.
[00:14:42] But you can make, everybody can make some healthy progress.
[00:14:49] So maybe share with us as a way of beginning, what's the difference?
[00:14:54] Why the focus on healthy church?
[00:14:57] And then what is the expectation or what's the right posture for pastors looking to lead
[00:15:04] change and to help their church get some life and some energy?
[00:15:09] The reason I concentrate on healthy church is because for so many years, I tried to build
[00:15:14] a big church and it burnt me out, nearly killed me and nearly killed the healthy church that
[00:15:19] I was pastoring.
[00:15:20] And then when I started realizing, okay, we're just going to concentrate on health, not health
[00:15:24] as a step to get bigger, but simply healthfulness for the sake of healthfulness, for the sake
[00:15:30] of effectiveness in ministry, for the sake of fulfilling God's call upon our lives.
[00:15:34] Because here's the deal.
[00:15:35] If you take a small and unhealthy church and all you do is make it big, you now have a
[00:15:39] big unhealthy church and that's not good.
[00:15:41] That's bad.
[00:15:42] But if you take a small and unhealthy church and you make it healthy, even if it doesn't
[00:15:46] get bigger, healthy is always better.
[00:15:49] So you can lose, you can actually lose with big.
[00:15:52] In fact, the new book, what you mentioned earlier coming out soon called Desizing the
[00:15:57] Church actually talks about some of the dangers of bigness.
[00:16:00] That's the premise of it.
[00:16:01] And that you can lose with big, you can't lose with healthy.
[00:16:05] Again, it can't be healthy only as a step towards bigness because that way bigness becomes
[00:16:12] the goal and not health.
[00:16:12] And at some point or another, you're going to be asked to cheat on the health in order
[00:16:17] to get to the big.
[00:16:19] That's a strong, strong final statement right there.
[00:16:22] I love that though.
[00:16:23] You're going to be tempted to cheat on health in order to go bigger.
[00:16:26] You know, what a statement.
[00:16:29] And I like that especially because not every church is called to be a big church, right?
[00:16:34] There's all kinds of sizes that are the right size.
[00:16:37] We talk about right sizing at Marine View.
[00:16:40] You know, what is the right size for our mission right now in our community?
[00:16:44] And I think that's a healthy way to look at it for churches and out in the rural parts
[00:16:49] of the world.
[00:16:49] I mean, there's only so many people that are going to be coming to church unless cows start
[00:16:54] showing up to church or whatever, you know, like, so thinking in terms of health, not
[00:16:59] size, I think really is it's a, there's some freedom in that where we go, oh, okay.
[00:17:04] Healthy.
[00:17:05] That sounds good.
[00:17:06] And if health leads to growth, awesome.
[00:17:09] But if health leads to health, that's a good too.
[00:17:12] I love it.
[00:17:13] Yeah.
[00:17:13] I really appreciate that conversation.
[00:17:14] I really, I take a lot away every time we talk to Carl and really appreciate his work
[00:17:20] so much because I definitely, here's, I definitely resonate when I was the pastor, solo pastor
[00:17:27] of a small church, a small church had been declined for a long time.
[00:17:32] And, you know, I had all sorts of dreams about, you know, we're going to revitalize this church
[00:17:36] and we're going to see it double, triple, you know, whatever.
[00:17:39] Because in my head, that was, that was what a healthy church looked like.
[00:17:45] Like, well, it's a healthy church, a place where people want to be.
[00:17:48] And so people kind of flock to it and they grow in their faith and all of that.
[00:17:52] But what I noticed was that pursuit had a tendency to run me ragged when my time and energy would
[00:18:00] have been better spent just worrying simply about, are we being as healthy a church as
[00:18:04] we can be?
[00:18:05] Let the numbers come as they may, but let's just focus on being healthy.
[00:18:09] I just found that really important.
[00:18:11] Yeah.
[00:18:11] I think there's something about do what you can and trust the outcomes to God.
[00:18:14] It's like, you know, that I think there's a freedom for us to be the leaders and the pastors
[00:18:19] that we want to be and for our people to be really be growing disciples and not, you know,
[00:18:24] cogs in the machine of growth or something like that.
[00:18:27] So yeah, very good.
[00:18:28] He's so good.
[00:18:29] He is.
[00:18:30] He is.
[00:18:31] Desizing the Church is that book.
[00:18:33] And I'm sure you've all heard about it by now, but maybe that's a book you want to get
[00:18:37] here in the new year.
[00:18:38] Okay.
[00:18:40] Number two.
[00:18:41] Hey, we're almost, almost the end here.
[00:18:42] Number two is a Jesse Skiffington special.
[00:18:45] This was your idea.
[00:18:47] Okay.
[00:18:47] It was our number two.
[00:18:49] Most of us know your mom listened a whole bunch of times.
[00:18:51] She did.
[00:18:51] She clicked refresh a lot of times.
[00:18:53] Jason, that is.
[00:18:54] I, you know, often talk to her about the, the, you know, the way that my, you know, I, I
[00:19:00] need that affirmation sometimes.
[00:19:01] No, this was a great episode.
[00:19:03] I love the image was a great image that you shared and it's episode three, 24 leadership
[00:19:09] and the dog sled.
[00:19:10] And I, and I think a lot of people really resonated with this because it's simple.
[00:19:15] And I think effective at explaining how church revitalization works and what we ought to be
[00:19:20] focusing on.
[00:19:21] That was really good.
[00:19:22] So let's listen to an excerpt of that leadership and the dog sled.
[00:19:28] This is actually an image that I heard back in my college ministry days.
[00:19:32] So 20 something years ago now, but it's always stuck with me.
[00:19:36] And as a leader type, I tend to be eager for change and wanting to move forward, but it's
[00:19:41] helped me to understand and even value the people who are slower to change or more cautious
[00:19:48] so long as they're willing to, can, to move things forward.
[00:19:51] And so I, we're going to use this image of the dog sled to help us think about the kinds
[00:19:56] of people that we have in our congregations, in our leadership teams, and how is it that
[00:20:01] we can actually work together to move the mission forward sustainably, wisely down the pathway
[00:20:09] and avoid some of the pitfalls of just going crazy and going nuts and avoiding the pitfall
[00:20:15] of not doing anything at all.
[00:20:17] So I want you to picture dog sled, Jason.
[00:20:19] I know you probably, I did a rod.
[00:20:21] Are you up at the, I did a rod every year cheering for the mushers and all that?
[00:20:24] I imagine.
[00:20:25] No, but I watched iron will.
[00:20:26] So there you go.
[00:20:27] So, you know, right?
[00:20:28] So a dog sled, of course, has the dogs, the sled dogs are out front.
[00:20:32] And what are sled dogs almost always doing?
[00:20:34] If you see that sled dogs, they're almost never sitting in the snow, just kind of taking,
[00:20:39] you know, doing whatever they're working.
[00:20:40] They're yipping.
[00:20:41] They're pulling at their leash.
[00:20:42] They can't wait to get the sled moving down, down the pathway.
[00:20:46] I mean, just picture it.
[00:20:47] They're excited.
[00:20:48] They're passionate.
[00:20:48] They're eager for change.
[00:20:49] And so you get this image of, there are people in the life of the church who are like that.
[00:20:55] And the sled itself and the payload that's on it, I think we want to think of as the mission,
[00:21:01] the thing that we're trying to do, the vision of the moment.
[00:21:04] And we want to see that thing make progress toward its destination.
[00:21:08] And so you're going to need the dog sleds to pull the sled down the trail.
[00:21:12] And so picturing whatever your current project or vision or mission is, what is that thing
[00:21:17] that's sitting on the sled that you want to see get down the trail?
[00:21:21] Now, here's the thing.
[00:21:22] You also have on a dog sled, a thing called a snow break.
[00:21:26] And it's this big monstrosity of a thing that gets pushed down into the snow.
[00:21:29] And it has the capacity to slow down the dogs on the trail and to keep things safe,
[00:21:34] but also has capacity to bring the sled to a halt.
[00:21:37] Now, here's the beautiful thing about a dog sled, I think, and why this image really
[00:21:41] works.
[00:21:42] If we're trying to move that payload of our mission or vision or project down the road
[00:21:46] is that we actually need both.
[00:21:51] Nice.
[00:21:51] Yeah, that was pretty good.
[00:21:52] I think I did a good job with that one.
[00:21:54] I can see why it was number two.
[00:21:56] I don't know who is number one or why they would be better than that.
[00:21:58] But yeah, I love it.
[00:22:01] I've always loved that image of you need people that pump the brakes a little bit to keep you
[00:22:06] safely moving down the trail.
[00:22:07] And you need people leading the charge out front.
[00:22:09] And if you put the brake in the ground too much, those people out front will get tired
[00:22:13] and bored and leave and they'll go do something else.
[00:22:16] But if you let them to their own devices and they just go off gallivanting down the trail
[00:22:21] without any control at all, your payload is going to end up in the snowbank and it's going
[00:22:25] to be a disaster.
[00:22:26] So we need both people who are saying, hey, let's think it through.
[00:22:30] And I think that's a healthy, well-rounded image of change management in the life of the
[00:22:35] church.
[00:22:35] Yeah, we have a guy in our church.
[00:22:39] He's not really active anymore.
[00:22:41] He kind of moved.
[00:22:42] He and his wife moved into an assisted living facility, but he was active for a long time.
[00:22:46] Super smart guy.
[00:22:48] But he would take it upon himself to sort of be the gatekeeper of all ideas.
[00:22:51] Like he's engineer brain, super brilliant, but he'd always hold everything up because
[00:22:56] he couldn't analyze it enough.
[00:22:58] Yeah.
[00:22:59] And the impulse was always to just sort of like, oh, you know, let out a sigh, maybe
[00:23:05] roll our eyes and be like, come on, not again.
[00:23:07] We're ready to go.
[00:23:08] But once out of 10 times, he saved our skins.
[00:23:12] I'm sure he did.
[00:23:13] Yeah.
[00:23:13] And the thing is, you had to deal with the other nine times.
[00:23:16] But if we decided just to shut him out and never listen to him because he was just the
[00:23:21] permanent snow break.
[00:23:22] Right.
[00:23:23] We wouldn't have gotten to where we wanted to go safely.
[00:23:25] Yeah.
[00:23:26] Well, and I think safely means you have to encourage your break people to let off the
[00:23:33] break.
[00:23:34] Like the goal is not to sit in the snow.
[00:23:36] Yeah.
[00:23:36] That's a dumb goal.
[00:23:37] So let's go do something.
[00:23:39] And I think over time, as they begin to trust the direction, you'll find your snow break
[00:23:43] people letting off the break more and more and excited about where we're going.
[00:23:46] I was just talking to our former treasurer, CPA, and I was like, here's a guy who gets the
[00:23:51] mission and the numbers in this rare combination.
[00:23:54] But I think it's something he's grown toward as we've taken healthy risks and changed over
[00:23:59] time.
[00:23:59] And so you begin to trust the people that are leading the charge and you take your foot
[00:24:04] off the break a little bit to see what God will do.
[00:24:06] So good stuff.
[00:24:08] Okay.
[00:24:09] You ready for number one?
[00:24:10] Let's go.
[00:24:11] Number one.
[00:24:11] Should we play a drum roll?
[00:24:12] Okay.
[00:24:13] It's another guest, right?
[00:24:14] It's another guest.
[00:24:15] Yeah.
[00:24:15] Is it a recent guest or way back at the beginning of the year?
[00:24:17] Yes.
[00:24:18] Back at the beginning.
[00:24:19] And now part of it is when you do these reviews, they're always skewed toward being an older
[00:24:24] episode because they accumulate listens over time.
[00:24:27] That's right.
[00:24:27] Well, I think we should do a multiplier for recent episodes, like a 1.2 or 1.7.
[00:24:32] I think that's a great idea.
[00:24:32] That's a great idea.
[00:24:33] Because it's got to be weighted.
[00:24:34] No.
[00:24:34] All right.
[00:24:35] I love it.
[00:24:35] So drum roll for our number one episode of the year.
[00:24:40] Episode 330, A Great First Impression, Elevating the Guest Experience with Greg Atkinson.
[00:24:47] Nice.
[00:24:48] He was great.
[00:24:49] And he's a well-known guest.
[00:24:51] He wrote that book, Secrets of a Secret Shopper.
[00:24:53] So definitely a great reminder for all of us about the importance.
[00:24:59] He's the one that really kind of coined that you have the first 10 minutes to connect with
[00:25:05] somebody and they've already decided if they're coming back or not.
[00:25:07] So let's listen.
[00:25:09] Again, I want to encourage you guys, go back, listen to episode 330.
[00:25:12] It is so good.
[00:25:13] But let's listen a bit to part of that episode.
[00:25:19] It's eye-opening.
[00:25:21] It is.
[00:25:22] And whenever we talk about this subject, though, there are some pastors who glaze over a little
[00:25:27] bit or have a little bit of a reaction to it and say, well, if you just preach the
[00:25:33] word, you'll be fine.
[00:25:34] Like, you don't need to mess with all this bringing the business world into that.
[00:25:39] That's kind of how they see it.
[00:25:40] It's that we have our spiritual thing.
[00:25:41] And if God wants us to grow, he's going to do it and he's going to do all these things.
[00:25:46] How do you respond when people respond like that?
[00:25:50] It's often pastors who do.
[00:25:51] It is pastors.
[00:25:53] Yeah, I've heard it my whole career, just preach the word of God.
[00:25:56] But I think when Jesus talked about being wise to serpents, I don't think there's anything
[00:26:01] wrong with strategy.
[00:26:02] I don't think there's anything wrong with learning from outside consultants.
[00:26:07] The reason I wrote the Secret Shopper book is so you can secret shop your own church and
[00:26:12] you don't have to pay my fee or hire me or fly me in.
[00:26:15] I said, do it yourself.
[00:26:17] Pay 10 bucks for the book and then do your own Secret Shopper.
[00:26:20] But there's got to be ways to evaluate what we're doing.
[00:26:24] In business, it's all about metrics.
[00:26:28] If we can't measure it, then we got to be able to measure it.
[00:26:31] We got to be able to look at is what we're doing effective?
[00:26:35] Are our processes efficient and effective?
[00:26:39] And so I have heard that my entire career, the whole just preach the word of God.
[00:26:45] But it often comes from churches that are not really reaching their community very well.
[00:26:51] And what I've found from working with the largest and fastest growing churches in the
[00:26:56] country is they are hungry for growth.
[00:26:58] They really want to reach their neighbors, their community.
[00:27:03] Yeah.
[00:27:04] Yeah.
[00:27:04] Interesting that two of our five episodes that kind of hit the top five here are about
[00:27:11] bringing an eye towards outcomes and strategy into the mix.
[00:27:14] And how do we do that well to evaluate how it's going?
[00:27:17] And I got to tell you that the Secret Shopper idea, I actually just jotted it down.
[00:27:21] I think I'm going to send it in the direction of my elders, actually.
[00:27:24] But it kind of makes you a little bit anxious when you're like,
[00:27:27] somebody's going to come secret shop my church and then judge me and judge us and tell us
[00:27:32] all the things we're doing wrong.
[00:27:33] But then you think about the far side of that.
[00:27:35] Wouldn't you rather know than not know?
[00:27:39] Yeah.
[00:27:39] So anyway.
[00:27:41] No, totally.
[00:27:42] I feel like I can't address when I'm unwilling to acknowledge.
[00:27:48] You know?
[00:27:48] Right.
[00:27:48] Like, how do we fix it if we're just unwilling to take a look at it?
[00:27:51] I mean, it's true with everything in life.
[00:27:53] And isn't God's mission worth looking under the hood to make sure that it's working?
[00:27:59] Well, as part of the leader's job is to define reality.
[00:28:02] And sometimes we're so close to the project, it gets hard to see it clearly.
[00:28:07] And maybe our emotions cloud our judgment or we're just so close to it,
[00:28:10] we can't really see what's missing or what's going well the way that we once could.
[00:28:14] So I love it.
[00:28:15] Yeah.
[00:28:15] Not a shocker that that's number one.
[00:28:17] And it's just such an important conversation for us to be having.
[00:28:21] Well, man, what a blessing to get to do this podcast for another year, Jesse.
[00:28:25] I can't believe we started this in 2017.
[00:28:29] What?
[00:28:30] That's amazing.
[00:28:31] Yeah, really.
[00:28:32] Oh my gosh, you know.
[00:28:34] 372 episodes in, which is really remarkable.
[00:28:37] And just, I can't, all the relationships too in this have been spectacular.
[00:28:45] All the people that we've gotten to talk to, how much learning we've done.
[00:28:50] I mean, I just think about, I would not be anywhere close to where I am as a leader if
[00:28:54] I hadn't had just these piles of conversations that I think they have a cumulative effect
[00:28:59] in leadership.
[00:29:02] You know?
[00:29:02] Yeah, it's been a lifeline of leadership, I think, for you and me together to process and
[00:29:06] to think leadership.
[00:29:07] And if you don't, I mean, I know there are other areas of my life where I'm not as attentive
[00:29:12] and you kind of drift over time.
[00:29:14] So by having this on a weekly basis, I mean, it's a lot.
[00:29:18] If people go, how long, how many?
[00:29:20] Like, there's a lot of words.
[00:29:22] And I don't know, a lot of them maybe were useful and some of them maybe not as much or
[00:29:25] whatever, but it's that consistency over time.
[00:29:27] And the fact that you and I, we can't even remember the details of what we talked about
[00:29:32] a month ago or whatever.
[00:29:33] That's okay because it really is the collaborative, cumulative impact of leadership conversations
[00:29:38] over time that help us.
[00:29:40] And so I hope it's helping other people.
[00:29:42] It's helping me.
[00:29:43] Sounds like it's helping you, Jason.
[00:29:45] And I just want to say thanks to you.
[00:29:46] I appreciate so much that we get to do this together.
[00:29:50] Me too.
[00:29:51] And I just want to ask all of our folks, you know, if you would do us a favor this year
[00:29:55] and help get the word out about the podcast.
[00:29:57] We've been around a long time, but we have spent zero dollars on marketing and all of
[00:30:00] that.
[00:30:00] We just sort of want to help.
[00:30:02] And we're full time just like you or we're in the trenches just like you.
[00:30:06] So we don't have a team.
[00:30:09] It's just us.
[00:30:10] So anyway, if you'd share it, pass on a long episode to some colleagues, we would love
[00:30:15] that.
[00:30:16] We'd really appreciate it.
[00:30:17] And I also, I felt like we'd be remiss if I didn't just acknowledge and honor a couple
[00:30:22] of people that passed away this year.
[00:30:24] Um, the first is Tony Morgan from the unstuck group.
[00:30:29] Tony Morgan's well-known of, they have a big popular podcast on in this same space, church
[00:30:34] revitalization and, um, big, huge consulting outfit.
[00:30:38] Many churches have benefited from their advice.
[00:30:41] We had Tony on episode 65, all the way back episode 65.
[00:30:46] And, um, what I remember about that episode is we were talking about pathways, not programs.
[00:30:54] And that, that conversation has stuck with me and been a major part of my own thinking
[00:30:59] ever since.
[00:30:59] Yeah.
[00:31:00] And it was before the pandemic.
[00:31:04] And we, we, I remember we had like a throwaway line about online worship because we were debating
[00:31:10] its value.
[00:31:11] And he just said, um, you know, I don't have time to kind of get into this now, but I'm a
[00:31:16] big fan of online worship and man, was he right?
[00:31:18] So anyway, uh, blessings to Tony's family and friends and all who were impacted by his
[00:31:25] ministry.
[00:31:25] We just want to say thank you, Tony.
[00:31:27] And, um, well done.
[00:31:30] Uh, and then another is a, a dear friend of mine, Carol Clark, who is from the, uh, Presbytery
[00:31:37] of Arkansas.
[00:31:38] And, uh, she's a good friend and colleague pastor.
[00:31:41] Uh, she was most recently pastoring in North Little Rock, Arkansas, and, um, was so passionate
[00:31:49] about church revitalization.
[00:31:51] And she was the one who introduced me to that Presbytery.
[00:31:53] She had me come in and speak for them.
[00:31:56] I ended up doing a whole bunch of consultant work for churches out there.
[00:31:59] Uh, and it was just really wonderful.
[00:32:01] I had so many good memories and I had an opportunity to have a one-on-one coaching relationship with
[00:32:08] her when, um, and I felt like I was learning just as much from her as she might've been learning
[00:32:14] from me, but, uh, you, she passed away unexpectedly and, but man, what a joyful woman is so joyful
[00:32:20] for the Lord and joyful in ministry.
[00:32:23] I'm just, thank you, Carol, for your friendship and your love over the years.
[00:32:26] And, uh, prayers go out to her husband, Mark, and her whole family.
[00:32:31] So, uh, anyway, uh, I know it's kind of a sad way, but, but I think also an important way.
[00:32:37] It's just, we're, we're transformed and we're shaped by the people around us.
[00:32:42] And I don't know who's shaping and transforming all of you out there, but I pray that you really
[00:32:47] lean into those relationships because, uh, you never know, you never know, uh, what life
[00:32:52] is going to be or not be.
[00:32:54] And I think all this time matters.
[00:32:57] Yeah.
[00:32:57] And we all get to play some part in the story of what God's doing in our world.
[00:33:01] And we're invited to that, whether it's a small sliver or a big impact or, uh, a big platform
[00:33:07] or just a conversation over 372 episodes of thinking and talking shop and leadership, you
[00:33:13] know, we get to be a part of what God's doing in this world and gives our life meaning and
[00:33:17] purpose and direction.
[00:33:18] And we want to help others find that too.
[00:33:20] So, uh, happy new year to everybody.
[00:33:22] We're, we're grateful for you, rooting for you as always.
[00:33:24] And I can't wait to see where we had in 2025.
[00:33:27] Uh, amazing that we're a quarter of the way through this new century, Jason.
[00:33:32] What the heck?
[00:33:33] Why'd you have to say that?
[00:33:34] And I really feel ancient anyway.
[00:33:36] Thanks everyone for listening.
[00:33:37] Ministry is hard.
[00:33:38] It is so much better when we do it together.
[00:33:41] Take care.