[00:00:00] and in some parts of the country, maybe there are pieces of the pipeline that are still intact. And maybe our church is an example. We're right next to Duke Divinity School. We still get great interns whom we are able to send into ministry. So in some ways, we're fortunate that there's sort of a piece of the pipeline intact. But when I look around more broadly, I think pastors are not calling young people into ministry. When they do find their way to seminary again, no one's inviting them like,
[00:00:29] hey, consider being a pastor. Welcome to episode 448. Last week, we talked about how many denominations are reporting that there are hardly any young leaders stepping into congregational ministry. We're talking with pastors Goody Bell and David Kling about the pastoral leadership crisis in the U.S. and what a group of Presbyterians are doing about it. That's today on The Reclaim Leader. Welcome to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker. And I'm Jesse Skiffington.
[00:00:58] We're two pastors in the trenches who are passionate about church health for greater gospel impact. We share the ups and downs of ministry, strategies that work for us, and some that didn't. Best practices and practical tools for church leadership. The goal? To help all of our churches flourish. Let's get started. Welcome back, everyone, to The Reclaim Leader podcast. Jesse, it's good to be back again.
[00:01:24] Um, boy, it has been a bit of a whirlwind coming and going for both of us. Uh, all sorts of obligations, good things, not great thing. I mean, it's all sort of a mixed bag right now. So it's always great when we get a chance to actually sit down and even on, even on zoom, it's hard to make our schedules work. Totally, man. You know, but this podcast is kind of like the anchor in our schedule that holds us fast, right? It really does. In the midst of all the craziness we know at some point
[00:01:53] we're coming to this and getting to talk shop and continuing to process our leadership because I, you know, man, it is, it's, there are seasons or stretches where there's just a lot on our plates and a lot of hats we're wearing as we've talked about and lots of good things, lots of hard things. So anyway, always grateful to be able to come back and talk leadership, talk life and faith and our lives as pastors. So good stuff. Yeah, it's good. And, and you know, I'm busy when I showed up
[00:02:19] today in my, my Raiders gear. Uh, so if you're, if you're watching us online, listen, unashamed, you are unashamed. This is a Raiders fans favorite time of year. Um, because not winning or losing right now. Yeah. You're undefeated. Yeah, that's right. And we, uh, I, I gave my heart to a Mendoza. So,
[00:02:41] you know, uh, I am, uh, faithfully, uh, awaiting his entrance. And listen, if you say anything, the team, and this is true with athletes in general, the team's like filled with Christians and I'm seeing this, this is a total tangent and we're not talking about any of this today, but I'm seeing this too, just, uh, with my sons, especially who are really into sports and
[00:03:08] the guys that they look up to, they're sending me videos of them giving their testimony. It's like, so, so powerful, so powerful. But, um, yeah, so we, we talked last week, uh, with Jonathan LaBarge, we had a great conversation with him about the pastoral leadership crisis in the United States and yeah, uh, share some thoughts on that. He shared, you know, as the co-director of ordination for ECO,
[00:03:32] sharing kind of what he's seeing, the ECO ordination process, which is really great. I think. It's solid, man. Yeah. And, uh, when I was talking with Goody and David this week, I had mentioned, Hey, did you know, uh, Jonathan and, and ECO over here, they've got this really great process. So we do these retreats and, and then there's what you're doing. And I feel like
[00:03:57] there's room for you guys to talk to each other and think like, how can we all be working on solving this issue? Because it, it is a real problem and you're seeing it absolutely everywhere in all churches. So. Yeah. And in some ways, as those who are in leadership now, part of our stewardship of leadership, maybe if you want to put it that way, is to be looking out for the future of leadership.
[00:04:22] And I think that's the part that is not always in front of mind for me. If, if I meet and see someone, I go, Oh man, you have some real gifts and talents, but it's not from a kind of system level, something that I spent a lot of time really thinking about. And, and, and so for us to be having this conversation is really important because Jason, you and I were born back in the 1900s. Oh man. The 1900s. That's like way a long time ago. Right. So. And not like 99. No, no.
[00:04:54] It's not quite the mid 1900s, but it's. No way to take it easy right there, mister. Yeah. So, so it's really about how are we putting together this leadership pipeline that, where we can identify and reach out to younger generations and encourage them to follow their ministry gifts and perhaps a sense of calling to, to ministry, vocational ministry. So anyway, we
[00:05:21] have today on the podcast, Goody Bell, who is, she is the pastor at Black Nile Presbyterian Church in Durham, North Carolina. And, um, and I met Goody at, uh, through the fellowship community and she, she kind of appeared out of nowhere. Everyone's like, oh yeah, Goody, Goody this, Goody that, Goody's going to do this and Goody's going to do that. And I'm like, who is this? Yeah. And, uh, met her and it all became apparent. She's a very gifted, uh, pastor and she seems
[00:05:50] to really have, not seem, she really has a heart for, uh, the next pastors coming up and she has been working with them and she's got cohorts and stuff that she's kind of started. And then also David Kling. So David's a friend of the podcast. I jokingly called him, uh, the co-host of, uh, the substitute host for this episode. It's just, anytime he needs to sub in, that's a, that's a, that's a good ad, right?
[00:06:16] Uh, and David and Goody have been working together on this leadership pipeline, uh, challenge and really have a lot of great things going. So excited to hear from them and, and pay attention to the end too, because they, um, kind of, you can get in on it if you are, uh, so inclined or, you know, a young person that maybe wants to jump in, uh, there are ways to do that. And I'm sure
[00:06:41] obviously Jonathan as well, uh, through ECO, but, um, I don't know, as far, as far as I'm concerned, I sort of don't care what, what brand of Presbyterian you are. Yeah. And we got to cultivate young leaders, right. And help cast vision for the future of leadership. So let's do it all together. Exactly. Right. All right. So here is my conversation with Goody and David. Well, I am so excited to get
[00:07:05] to talk with Goody and David and, uh, for our audience. I mean, you know, David, he's, he's an occasional kind of serial podcast guest that we love to have on. And today, since Jesse, uh, couldn't be here for the interview, uh, he's really, he's my new Jesse today. I'm just saying, uh, so David, please tell us about the Pacific Northwest. I'm going to put in sports references, my allergies
[00:07:29] and my boys who play baseball. I got it. I love it. I love it. Uh, and Goody, I'm so excited that you are here and part of this, uh, serving at Black Nile Presbyterian Church in Durham, North Carolina. We're having a little bit of a pre-conversation debate as to whether or not that was in the South. I submit that it is, uh, because everything South of Maryland is the South for me. So, uh, anyway, the city of Durham is a melting pot. Drive 30 minutes North to where I live on the farm and then
[00:07:58] you're in the real South. Oh, there you go. Okay. I think they're honorary Yankees. I think we could vote on that. Okay. Yeah. No comment. You have a congregation, so you have to be political. That's all right. Well, I, um, at our national gathering, fellowship, national gathering, the two of you, and you also had a, uh, young adult who was there and, uh, in the process and thinking about ordination
[00:08:23] and leadership and all of these things, you know, look, the live debate right now is what do we do about this crisis that we're all seeing? We're seeing it across seminaries. We're seeing it in churches. I mean, it really doesn't take too long or hard to look and see. We have a succession problem. We have, uh, a lot of vacancies and we can just speak of the Presbyterian churches,
[00:08:47] a PCUSA churches. There's tons of vacancies, not enough candidates to fill, uh, the pulpits. And this has led to what I'm calling, I think it's a crisis. I think it's a real problem. I'd love to hear a little bit of some of the ruminations you have had about the problem that you're seeing. And then we'll talk about what you're actually doing, which I love. You're actually doing something about the problem, which is great. Let's talk a little bit about the problem.
[00:09:17] What is it, what is it that you have been seeing and kind of led you to be involved with this? Right. I mean, like so many other people, I'm looking at my seminary that I attended and looking at the in-person class sizes going down. Uh, we feel that certainly in our congregation, but a big part of being involved with this effort for me comes from one of these young adults, Allie. Uh, she was with me at the fellowship national gathering, looked around the room and said,
[00:09:47] most of these people are going to be dead by the time I'm in my 15th year of ministry. I mean, that's not exactly true, but her question was like, who are my colleagues going to be? It's not enough to have a good sending church. I need to know I'm going to have good colleagues. And that was really, among other things, that conversation was a big catalyst for me. How about you, David? Yeah. I just think that's been my biggest heartache, um, in my 10 years of ministry is how do you find
[00:10:16] good staff and good teammates and, um, same, uh, problems of, Hey, we have so many great churches in the PC USA, but who's going to take, um, over when this next generation passes the keys, as we've been talking about kind of with youth ministry, you know, that's happening at the higher level with pulpits. Um, so really feeling that burden. And, um, I think, uh, Goody and I
[00:10:43] had a conversation with some of the other younger pastors at last year's, uh, national gathering for the fellowship and just started brainstorming some solutions to that problem. And then from there, it really kind of snowballed and turns out this is something that everybody was interested in talking about. Yeah. And we, you know, we talk about leadership pipeline. It seems like along the way, there's a lot of cracks in the pipeline or, or pieces that need to get replaced. Do you, do you
[00:11:09] feel like, and, and before we kind of get into your story, Goody, um, do you feel like the pipeline is broken because of us, because of calling and discernment on the candidate side or theological education, ordination, mentoring on the other side, or is it all of the above? I would say the, the whole thing is fracturing. And in some parts of the country, maybe there are
[00:11:38] pieces of the pipeline that are still intact, you know, that there are still, and, and maybe our church is an example. We're right next to Duke Divinity School. We still get great interns whom we are able to send into ministry. So in some ways we're fortunate that there's sort of a piece of the pipeline intact. But when I look around more broadly, I think, uh, pastors are not calling young people into ministry. Um, and when they do find their way to seminary, they're going for their
[00:12:05] own personal questions. And again, no one's inviting them like, Hey, consider being a pastor. And then they don't have the denominator. I've talked to several people this week who are in seminary, who, who are saying, I want to be a pastor, but I'm not a part of a denomination. So then they're having to figure that out in seminary. So I would say it's cracked all along the way. Um, but you feel the sort of acuteness of that more depending on where you are.
[00:12:31] Yeah. And I think too, you know, the whole, the whole landscape has been shifting and we need to kind of think in a fresh way about how are we going to identify and help encourage young people to become pastors. I mean, my goodness, it's like they're going to seminary at the ones that are going to seminary don't want to be in a church. Right. Our CPM, I'm on the committee, uh, commission
[00:12:57] for preparation for ministry in my presbytery, great group of people. But we were, you know, one of my colleagues said, well, I just don't understand. Like why, how did these kids get to seminary without being under care? And it is, and that was exemplary of, this is a whole new ballgame folks, you know, and our, our manuals are not built for it. Our, it's different than our own understanding. And it feels like we're having to play catch up fast. Yeah. So share with us,
[00:13:26] goody, your story about, cause I think it's a really great example of, um, let's call it non-traditional or non-expected ways of, of going into or experiencing a sense of call and going into ministry. Um, yeah. So I'm hoping you would share your story a little bit. I'm happy, I'm happy to be the non-traditional call. Um, gosh, I mean, I said I would never work
[00:13:49] in a church full stop to many people. Uh, I, I grew up in a, had a great home church that has a history of sending many people into ministry. Um, love the congregation. They don't have female pastors or teaching elders. So while I loved to be in theological conversation, I just never imagined ministry was for me. Um, went to college, got involved with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship,
[00:14:16] uh, really thrived in their sort of small group Bible studies and having spiritual conversations with friends. Uh, they recruited me on the staff and I remember praying, okay, God, I will only give you five years. God, I will not do this for the rest of my life. I'm sure if I could hear the Lord's voice, it would have been laughing, you know, like thunderous laughter. Um, but that was my prayer. And I was, I was not an exemplary staff person within a varsity. Um, you know, this sort of oftentimes you
[00:14:46] would see this trajectory of kid becomes a Christian, kid becomes a small group leader, kid becomes chapter president, uh, kid joins staff. That never happened for me in my five years of ministry. I did not feel like I was successful in ministry. And so after five years, I said, okay, Lord, I told you, I'd give you five years. I gave you five years. Lucky you, God. Um, and I was determined to go get a PhD in psychology. So I'm working really hard to go do something else. Uh, and people in my life are
[00:15:14] starting to say, have you thought about seminary? And I'm like, what would a woman do in a church? Like, you know, what would I, and then like, I'm from the parachurch world. Churches are backwards. They don't do social justice. They don't do evangelism. I never want to work in a church. Um, but I was a part of this small trans denominational church, one PCUSA pastor, one assemblies of God pastor in the inner city of Richmond. And it kind of gave me this new vision
[00:15:42] for what church could be. And they were inviting me into leadership saying, why don't you teach on that? Why don't like, we need your gifts. So I was, that sort of resistance was beginning to crack. And long circuitous story. We ended up in seminary, but I was still determined. I wasn't going to work in a church. I was going to be a counselor. So I was going to pursue a dual degree. Um,
[00:16:07] and a friend of mine just said, instead of saying, do you want to start the process? He said, why not? Like, why not? What good excuse can you give me? And then he sort of low balled it and said, it won't, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, he kind of low balled it. Um, gosh. And I mean, I could give you the really long version of this story, but I said, fine, I'll start the ordination paperwork, but I'm still never going to be a pastor. Uh, so graduated from seminary, ready to receive a
[00:16:36] call, was still never going to be a pastor, uh, and took just a little temporary job on a church staff. So there I was within a church staff. Um, and, and sort of, it went from there. Like I kept not being able to leave. And I'm really grateful that the pastors for whom I worked, uh, my predecessor here at Blackenal said, why don't you just go, it's time to get ordained. Uh, and then eventually I'd
[00:17:02] been doing this so long, people kept saying, it's time to take the next step. So for me, it was never this sense of, I'm going to be a pastor. I resisted at every step, but there were people who at every step invited me and said, no, I think the Lord is pointing you that way. I love that. And I love, I love the reminder because I, as you're telling your story, I'm also thinking about my own story. It's always people inviting you to take a step along the way.
[00:17:31] And it, it feels very much, and I know you're going to talk about this, but it feels very much like the answer to a lot of this is who are the people who are inviting you to take a step. And I have to be honest with you. I feel like I'm part of the problem. And, and the reason is, is when I see young people who have ministry gifts, my first inclination
[00:17:56] is not to welcome them into a denomination, mostly because at least in my area of the country, there has historically been a lot of infighting. Um, and I'm like, I don't want to invite some young starry-eyed potential minister in, into that fray. However, I, I think the more I think about it,
[00:18:19] I think, well, ministry is a constant pushing up against all sorts of things. And perhaps that isn't the barrier I've created in my head, but, um, I need to be better at this. I need to be at this because gosh, I don't want, I don't want them just, you know, the heart sucked out of them when they get out there. You know what I mean? Right. No. And I think the resistance you're naming is real. I think it's across the board, whatever denomination you're in, you know, people
[00:18:49] are, people feel the cost of ministry. And so that, that they sort of hesitate. Um, and, and I can, I can really understand that. I it's, it's becoming a bit of a joke that Ephesians four is my favorite passage. I make everything relate to Ephesians four. I'm going to make church leadership relate to Ephesians four, but you know, it starts out talking about the unity of the body of Christ, uh, one body, one spirit, one God and father of all who's overall through all and in all,
[00:19:19] but to each grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. But the grace and the gifts are all gifts of leadership like, uh, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. And when I was thinking about our conversation today, I felt convicted. Like I believe Christ is the foundation of the church. I believe he sustains the church. I don't believe that's a promise that any particular
[00:19:44] congregation or denomination will be in life everlasting, but I, but I believe he sustains the church and that he gives gifts of leadership. And I don't want my attitude towards this to be dictated by statistics, by denominational infighting. Like I want my orientation to the future leadership of the church to be based on God's generosity in Christ. Like Christ is pouring out gifts of
[00:20:09] leadership on people. Who am I to be discouraged and ignore that? Um, so I am trying to, and it, it takes effort to sort of live in that sense of generosity and hopefulness and just looking for what Jesus is doing. Like he's doing this, it's here. Even if I'm discouraged and determined not to see it, uh, woe to me if I let these other things cloud my vision. Man, that's so good. I think that's good. Yeah, go ahead.
[00:20:36] I was going to just say, Tia, both of y'all, like something I've really been thinking a lot about is I think one of the reasons we don't encourage people to go into ministry is because we know there's a lot of suffering and just like you have great dreams and the dreams don't happen. You know, you have the best of intentions, something falls through and then there's just stuff that's just unfair. And I think I forget really easily before I became a pastor when I was in the workplace that that happens in every job. And so I think one of my fallacies,
[00:21:03] I think a lot of pastors have is we think the ministry is really special. Like our suffering is special suffering. And maybe it is, but I think everybody has those kind of hangups. And so I just listening to the two of you, I'm just thinking to myself, yeah, that's so right on. Like, who are we to try to protect people from suffering if that's what God is calling them to do for Christ and if Christ is going to sustain them in that journey? And we, I think,
[00:21:30] undersell the good things that happen in ministry too, too often. So I love both of y'all's points. I think that's absolutely fair. I think, I think also it's something that I have a habit of doing anyway as a human being is I'll get anxious about potential outcomes that may never happen. That's right. You know, so how do I make sure that I am not, not that I'm making space for them to consider
[00:21:59] a possible step in the direction of ordained pastoral ministry? So that's, that's really good. How has, and again, kind of before we switch to you, David, I was thinking, Goody, how has your story, how has it informed how you're approaching this problem of young leadership? Hmm. I think it has made me unafraid to ask, like, instead of saying, would you consider like,
[00:22:27] why not? Why not? And there's often really good reasons. Why not? I am not the Holy Spirit and I cannot tell someone what the Lord is calling them to, but I think it's made me a little more bold and persistent. Um, how do you start those conversations? It's just, Hey, I noticed something about, I mean, how do you, how do you do that? Yeah. That's in some ways, my context may not look
[00:22:52] like everyone's context because we're next to a divinity school and many of the people who, whom I'm encountering are already in divinity school. And so the question there is, well, why are you there? Like, how are you going to use your education and service of the church? Uh, I suspect for other people, it's looking at your elders, your staff, your lay people and saying, have you ever considered this? Um, so for me, so there's sort of a natural beginning to the conversation, but I think
[00:23:21] anytime that you see giftedness to say, God's calling people into ministry all the time and every age and stage, have you thought about that? Yeah, that's great. Just asking a question. Yeah. I love it. David. Yeah. Well, I was sort of curious, when did you, like, how old were you when you decided to leave the marketplace and go to seminary? Cause I'm wondering if we were at a
[00:23:48] similar age and I wonder if. Ah, good point. I think I was 27 or 26 right around there. So I'd done the workplace for about three years. I'd gotten a master's in something else. And so it was more like four years kind of on one track towards finance and then making a shift. And for me, having grown up as a pastor's kid, I think you're a pastor's kid too, Goody. You're not? Oh, okay.
[00:24:15] Jason, you're not. What? Just you. Oh no. Just you. You're the only CK. So I think the terrible thing was I went in eyes wide open knowing that it would be really hard, but just having like this really kind of unshakable, like, I got to do it. Um, I can't do anything else. I really want to do it. Um, but also trying to being mindful about making that choice. So I knew going in and I didn't even tell my dad cause he thought I'd broken the curse. We've got so many
[00:24:41] pastors. So I didn't even tell him I went on the train. I took a day off and I took the train to Princeton and signed up and called him on the train back. I was like, Hey, I got something I got to tell you. He's like, Oh no, no son. He's like, all right, I'm behind you 110%. But, um, so I think,
[00:25:06] um, sometimes too much information can be a dangerous thing. Um, but I'm really convicted again, goody what you're saying, which is basically, Hey, don't be shy about asking. Cause I think so many people's call stories involve multiple people asking and you saying no to the call. Yeah. And so it's like, why do I feel like I've got to be like the one shot, you know, wonder like every person I asked said, yes, maybe my calling is just to be the third or the fourth of seven asks. And on the seventh
[00:25:35] knock on the door, somebody's going to respond. So I mean, that's very freeing goody to hear you say that. But I, I can easily imagine myself if I were on the other side of our stories, you know, if I were in the older person talking to one of us, I can easily imagine myself talking out of it saying he's got a master's degree. He's educated, you know, he's invested all this money and getting this education or, you know, like she's applied to all these programs. Like why would she change her mind? You know, it's, it's easy to talk yourself out of it, especially when you see people have
[00:26:05] made a big investment and going a different direction and you're asking them to do something that might be costly. Um, but I'm glad. I do think that does tie into kind of what you and I've been talking about over the last year, Goody, which is really the pipeline is so broken. The costs are so large in terms of time and money. We have to get out of the idea that one person, one called
[00:26:29] individual can do this by themselves or one church, even a big church can't do it by themselves anymore. Like if we all work together, then we can share those costs of time and money and in some ways suffering together. Um, but by ourselves, it's becoming less and less likely that we can do it on our own, at least at the scale of the problem. That's totally true. And in fact, when I was in,
[00:26:55] uh, at Princeton, it was like, there were two West coast factories that were creating seminary students who want to be pastors. And it was a university press in Seattle and Whitworth. Um, they, I felt like every, but every other person was from there. I mean, they were just cranking them out, call us to ministry. And then, and, and, and then they weren't. And it's like, well, who's, who's doing that
[00:27:22] now? How are we doing that now? And, and the two of you got together, there was a, remind me how this all started. It was just a conversation like, Hey, we should do something. And then you guys are like, and then they're like, okay, you're in charge. You know, it was like one of those. So, I mean, I, I will tell you, I came to that conference with two interns on my mind. Uh, and I felt a little humbled. Like David said, I kind of thought our little spot here, Black Null Presbyterian,
[00:27:48] like my predecessors have been sending people into ministry for decades. I kind of thought we can do this on our own. And then I was a little bit humbled by my friend Allie's comment. No, a good sending church is not enough. Like a good seminary education is not enough. Like I'm going to need colleagues across the PCUSA. How are you going to help me with that? So I came to that fellowship conference with two interns on my mind and this determination that when I get back from this
[00:28:15] conference, I will talk to them about ordination and I will either encourage them or I will not, but I needed to kind of know from other people, are you still calling people into ministry in the PCUSA right now? And that's, I was kind of desperately going up to people asking that. And I think that's what, that's what, how would I remember starting the conversation? Yeah. And I think it just kind of snowballed from there. So, um, we ended up having a couple of
[00:28:44] intermediate conversations with other pastors, fellowship PCUSA pastors, and did a brainstorming session where we literally got big white pieces of paper and wrote out like, what would the dream pipeline look like? And everybody started throwing their ideas, um, on it and then took it to the fellowship board and they, they blessed it. And they, and I think what's really powerful is we
[00:29:08] actually put a number on the board and said, Hey, our goal is to train 250 PCUSA pastors or commissioned ruling elders by the year 2036. And, um, just putting that number and saying, we're aligned on this. Like we have a kind of a critical mass of churches that agree that this is the right thing. We got some great pastors and mentors that agree this is the right thing.
[00:29:33] Uh, we got some seminaries hopping on saying, this is a great thing and our board. So, um, it's, it was neat. Um, Goody and I got invited onto a conversation with Kara Powell, who's been on the podcast recently at Fuller. And as it turns out, this is the other wild thing. This is the plus B that just fell into place for me. So Fuller and Kara Powell have been working on a leadership pipeline project and they've started almost the same day we started. They've been working on it for a
[00:30:01] year. And we just hopped on the call with them and there were denomination leaders from across the country, all different kinds, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, and we were the Presbyterians. And they showed us a PowerPoint and it looked just like our PowerPoint. Wow. They had identified the exact same categories that we had, um, identified. And so what really encouraged me is I kind of felt like, Oh man, we're so behind. I was like, no, we're not behind.
[00:30:25] We're actually ever so slightly ahead because we've actually taken the time to get aligned from top to bottom and we've set a concrete goal. And now we have something very real that we can work towards. So we've moved away from just talking about the problem to now we're focused on trying to generate a solution. That's awesome. How, so where are we? Where are we in all of this? Like what's, what, you know, the plan you kind of shared a bit at the gathering, but kind of where
[00:30:54] are we in terms of taking action and next steps? And, um, yeah. So I can kind of, um, just for the sake of listeners, um, walk through what our plan is or like a little kind of hopeful tidbits about progress that's been made so far, but we're kind of looking at five buckets. Uh, really four of them are actual steps kind of starting from all the way recruiting to becoming a pastor and then making sure you stay a pastor. And something that
[00:31:24] you've talked about a lot in the podcast, Jason is burnout and how it is very real. Those first five years come at you real fast and so many people flame out. So how can we not just make sure that we identify, train and match make and get people to be pastors, but keep them in the ministry and keep that hope alive. So we've kind of sketched out a holistic process there. And then the fifth bucket is kind of a support bucket, which is partnerships. And just acknowledging that we can't do it alone
[00:31:54] just as the evangelical PCUSA churches. And we don't need to because so many other stakeholders are interested in this, but kind of our byline for the whole project is the fellowship, um, communities leadership pipeline is that every church deserves a, um, caring, courageous, Christ centered pastor. And so I think if we look across the country, that's really what every pastoral nominating committee wants. Yeah. They want someone that's going to care about them.
[00:32:23] First of all, not just come on with a big idea, guns blazing, but then someone that's going to need to be courageous and lead change. And that's also been one of the major themes of this podcast. And as part of the fellowship community, we would say Christ centered. And I think it ties in right what Goody has highlighted, which is Ephesians, you know, that you're not fueled by yourself, but you're fueled by a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that you want to share, um,
[00:32:49] according to his word. So what we know the hardest part of this is going to be is recruiting. Yeah. And we've got to cast a really wide funnel because what we know is the process is really arduous. Not everybody is going to make it through to the end of the pipeline. Hopefully everyone's blessed as they kind of engage that call. But, um, we're also seeing that it's not, um, always traditional pipelines. So it's no longer Whitworth, uh, cranking them out and university
[00:33:19] press. It is bankers and inter-varsity staff people. And at our national gathering, uh, we had in our little future leaders cohort, there was a judge and a welder who had not been to college yet. And they both were discerning calls to ministry. So what we're really seeing is something you've often said, Jason, which is that, uh, disciples and leaders are not mass produced. They're handcrafted.
[00:33:44] Yep. Everybody has their own story where we really feel a lot of freedom. And I, I think, um, it might've been our friend Brad Rogers at Benita Springs that said this first press Benita Springs that in the peace USA, the beautiful thing is, um, we have the freedom as evangelicals to really take the time to do the hand crafting. Yeah. We're not trying to manage a whole denomination. We're just managing a network within the denomination. So that really frees up time. Um,
[00:34:14] one of the powerful things that, uh, I learned from Kara Powell, as she talked about her leadership pipeline, they talked about their recruiting bucket. They're starting it earlier than we at first envisioned. They're saying, Hey, recruiting future pastors starts in vacation Bible school with 12 year olds being a leader. It starts with 15 year olds getting that first responsibility, running the soundboard or helping with the hospitality ministry. And so really how are we,
[00:34:43] um, using our camps, our youth groups, our children's ministries, which is Kara Powell's kind of, um, core, uh, area of research? How are we using next gen ministries to feed into the recruiting part of the pipeline? Um, but then how are we also connected to folks in college ministries, parachurch ministries, uh, folks in the professions that may be discerning a call at the national
[00:35:08] gathering. We talked about this and I had one guy come up and, um, you know, I had said joking, I did not mean to get a laugh for this, but I said, Hey, maybe you're in your eighties and you think I only have five years left. Oh wait, I was not supposed to be. But I did, um, have somebody in their seventies come up to me after the conference and said, I was called 50 years ago and I ran away
[00:35:34] from the call. Wow. And I'm going to go, I'm going to go get the CRE lay pastor training and I'm going to do it. And I'm going to go to my youth group and my church. I'm going to tell the youth who's coming with me because some of you are called seminary too. So, um, kind of casting that vision that it could be young people. It could be older people. And he's just, Hey, we have the flexibility for both the full strength and dev track or the, um, lay pastor track, which could be such a blessing
[00:36:02] to transitional ministry or smaller church ministry. So, um, uh, the next, so recruiting is first and we know that's going to be the hardest and largest. Goody is running a cohort right now online where they're reading Eugene Peterson. So that if you're out there listening right now and you think, Oh, I'm a retiree and I'm interested, or I'm a young adult and I'm interested in the ministry, but I don't know yet. You could join Goody's cohort and start reading a great theological
[00:36:31] works right now and start building relationships and having those conversations. We're actually having two calls, David. We're having one where we're reading Eugene Peterson for people who are just exploring, like, what is it? Actually? No, we're not. We changed. I forgot after the national gathering. Um, we put Eugene Peterson aside. That was last year. So we've got one call for people who are discerning call and we're actually reading Mark Labberton's book. He spoke to us at the national gathering. So we're talking to people who are discerning call early in the process.
[00:37:00] And then we have another call for folks who are committed to ministry in some way, whether that's as a church staff, an elder deacon, or as a traditional inquirer candidate. And that call is specifically about ministry. And we're reading Leslie Newbegin this year. So please, yeah, if you're out there listening, join us. Um, but that, that group has grown. It started out as one call and now it's become two as we recognized what different phases people are in.
[00:37:26] Oh, that's amazing. I love that. Yeah. Um, so once we've got the interest level of these folks, again, you don't need to make a huge commitment on the front end. You don't have to have it all figured out. You just have to be interested. You just have to have that little nudge to be kind of in that recruitment bucket. And you can be exploring what that call means. And the nice thing about the PCUSA ordination process is that's built in. You know, you start with the inquiry process. That's all you're doing. You're just inquiring. Um, we're gonna, the bar will get raised as you go
[00:37:56] through, but you don't have to have all the answers up front. Um, but we know the next step is really going to be training. So that's the next bucket. And that's everything that goes into the seminary process. And we know that takes a ton of time and a ton of money. Um, some interesting things that have happened since the national gathering is we've had a number of seminaries reach out to us saying they want to partner with, uh, the fellowship community and be one of the center,
[00:38:24] central kind of training grounds for this pipeline. Um, had a conversation with, uh, one, um, seminary this last week that's interested in, in maybe even raising the money to endow a Presbyterian chair, uh, professor that could help this because they want to have more reformed students at their seminary. We've got other seminaries that have said, um, oh my goodness, we've had this for years. We just were looking for a network that would send us students part of it.
[00:38:50] So let's start partnering formally. Um, we also know that lots of our churches have scholarships, but it's hard to figure out who's got scholarships. How do you apply for them? The timing is not coordinated. So we're in the process now of just getting a master list of what are all the scholarships offered by, um, the fellowship community churches or, um, other
[00:39:15] kind of granting grant making institutions that are like-minded and just coming up with that master list is going to help, um, students understand where can I turn to for resources? And it could be really small or could be really big. So again, our friend Brad Rogers and Benita Springs, they went ahead and raised like over a million dollars for the leadership pipeline before the leadership pipeline even existed. That's awesome. And so I called them a year ago. I know I called them a year ago.
[00:39:43] I'm like, we need, we're like putting this pipeline idea together, but we need money. And they're like, oh, we have money, but we're looking for a network to be, you know, partnering with it on this. So it was just another one of those like puzzle pieces coming into place. Um, and they have, so they have an incredible, like full scholarship program they have where they'll pay for your entire seminary tuition at Gordon-Conwell. Um, but there, I talked to another church, um,
[00:40:11] at the national gathering that's in the Pacific Northwest and they said, oh, we're a small church, but we have a man's and we're within a drive of a seminary. So could we partner and somebody else supplies the tuition, but we supply the housing. It's like, yeah, once we start working together as a network, all of a sudden the insurmountable odds of the resources that you have to acquire to get through the training process become much more achievable.
[00:40:39] Well, well basically, I mean, so what I hear you saying too is, and it's, it's not necessarily a knock on the denomination as the world has shifted, uh, the denominational structures or, or pipeline, if you will, are just inadequate for the task. And so what it's going to take is some kind of nimble, intentional process that maybe a smaller group can put together that, that can be, that get, get things going. Cause Lord knows how long that will take for a big
[00:41:08] ship to change directions. Right. I mean, it, it can. Um, but it, there is a sense of urgency. Like we don't have this kind of time just to wait for the reform to come from up top. We need to figure it out now. Um, and I really applaud your group and both of you for all the time you're putting into this. Cause I think it's, I think it really is going to help change things. I really do. Well, I think that's right. I think the idea is, Hey, training is expensive, but friendship is free.
[00:41:35] Yeah. And if we just spend the time nurturing our relationships and genuinely partnering with one another, um, it's exciting to see, you know, what it's going to unlock. Um, for me, you know, I'm kind of in a no man's land in Huntsville. I'm like two hours from every single seminary. So I've tried recruiting. Nobody wants to drive to me, but with online seminary now it's possible. So I actually have
[00:41:58] three residents all doing online schooling, working towards becoming ordained. And one of them were paying all the expenses. One of them has a part-time job that supports himself. And another one I've partnered with a small rural church where they pay half and we, we, they pay his grocery bill and we pay his seminary bill and they get preaching on the weekends and I get a college. So there's lots of, um, partnerships that you can make this training process and say, Hey, the more
[00:42:28] people participate, the more people win and are blessed by it. So, um, the next piece is actually a little bit unique to us. So this is the one piece Kara Powell did not have in the full seminary. What bucket is this now? This is placement. Um, and that's kind of unique to us as Presbyterians because our matchmaking process is so complicated. And how do you get that first call? Because you have to get voted on
[00:42:55] three or four different times. You have to have a committee that will elect you. You got to have a congregation that wants you, then you have to have a Presbytery that will ordain you. So with all these layers of votes, what we know is we've got to work together. There may be some places in the country where evangelical, uh, the Presbytery will ordain them on their first call. And there may be some Presbyterians in the country where they will not, or they'll, it'll be more challenging.
[00:43:19] So not every candidate may be able to be ordained as a first call in every Presbytery. Um, we also know that evangelical churches in the Peace USA really just feel, um, alone and isolated, uh, looking for an evangelical candidate and they can be a long search for those churches. So how can we encourage, um, the churches that are in the trenches looking for their next leader, praying for the next leader just so they don't feel alone. So one of the things we're doing now, our friend, um,
[00:43:49] Daryl is, uh, working to, um, recruit, uh, kind of lookouts in each of the regions of the fellowship community who can be resources for best practices and prayer and some matchmaking for, um, evangelical, uh, churches in the Peace USA, just so you don't feel alone. Even if the search is long, you can know that there's people supporting you and we can be shedding, uh, sharing the good news
[00:44:13] that, Hey, good candidates are on the way. Um, so that placement piece is a little bit unique to us as Presbyterians, but just saying, we're going to take that seriously. Yeah. We're not going to leave that to chance. That's another piece that requires significant input. Yeah. This is, um, so kind of, uh, I'm keeping an eye on our time here. I, I, I'd love to ask you guys what,
[00:44:36] if you could challenge every pastor and session to do one thing in this next year to strengthen leadership pipeline, what, what can we do? Where do you suggest we start showing up? It's for either of you. What do you think, Goody?
[00:44:59] I think I would encourage pastors or elders or sessions to look around the room, like look at the gifts of leadership that are there on, you know, just as ruling elders or just on your staff and then say, do I think the Lord is giving pastors to his church too? I do. And then just have, have one conversation, like invite somebody who could be anywhere from the ages of, you know,
[00:45:26] 10 to 80. Have you considered this? I mean, my son's doctor, he's 10 years old, asked him the other way. Do you know what you want to do when you grow up? And I thought, Oh, he's too young, but why is he? I mean, he's 10 years old. So, and I hear tons of, you hear tons of stories of people discerning a call early. And then tons of people like me who would say they never discern the call. It just happened to them. So I would encourage folks to like give thanks to God for the richness of gifts of
[00:45:53] leadership. They already see in their church and say, do I have faith to believe the Lord is pouring out the gift of another pastor and just looking to see where's the Holy Spirit at work? Is it this person? Is it that person? Who knows? Have a conversation. I think that's great. I think looking prayerfully at your church and asking yourself, what can I share? And it could be financial resources. It could be lessons that you've learned along the way.
[00:46:22] And that's kind of the last stage that we're thinking through is once you're placed, how do you launch successfully? And I think every pastor has a lesson or encouragement to share with the next generation of leaders. And so thinking about both what can you share in terms of resources, but what can you share in terms of wisdom as well and opening yourself to those kinds of mentoring relationships.
[00:46:48] Yeah. How, um, as you are, what's like your biggest encouragement right now as you're working on this thing? I think it's going to work. Every, every person I talk to is excited about it. And it just feels like, you know, we've talked on this podcast before about so much bad news, bad news, bad news. This is good news.
[00:47:14] And I think every person I talk to, there's a sense of hope. And I think the technology, it's almost the first moment in history where so many people spread across such a large area can have conversations like this, um, anytime we want to, can partner in creative ways. So I think it's a holy moment where in some ways it's never been harder to train leaders,
[00:47:42] but at the same time, it's never been easier to build a creative, effective network to partner together. And that's, what's exciting. Yeah. Hmm. I mean, I'm feeling a little convicted from our conversation. Like, oh, there's a couple of people I haven't talked to that I need to talk to. You know, they're, once you start thinking this way and sort of, and not just being discouraged, but sort of like expecting the Lord to be abundant
[00:48:09] and kind of being curious, you start to wonder about a lot of people. So I, I'm encouraged just thinking about the couple of names that have come to mind today. Like, why haven't I had a conversation with them? Well, I mean, and I just want to thank the both of you for your work and Goody, you need to know you're doing a great job. And I know firsthand because the parents of one of the young people
[00:48:33] that you've been working with come to my church and they sing your praises. They, um, they, uh, think you've done a phenomenal job. And, and I had the chance to talk with their daughter too, a little bit. And, and she says the same. So I just want to encourage the both of you, uh, and to thank you for the work that you're doing. But let's say, um, you know, a pastor may want to reach out, maybe has some questions. What's the best way to reach out to both of you?
[00:48:57] Great question. So, uh, sign up for the fellowship community newsletter and there's links in there where they, where pastors can get those links and share them with people that they think might be interested. If there's anyone who's just a little bit interested or curious, one of these calls is going to be for them. So I would encourage pastors sign up for the fellowship community newsletter, uh, share those links or feel free to look me up at, um, on blacknell.org.
[00:49:26] And, um, people can reach me at my email, david.kling, K-L-I-N-G at C-O-V-H-S-V.org. Awesome. Thank you so much for being on here. You know, I think in our conversations, I'm very encouraged. I was thinking about my own journey, uh, toward ordination and all the people along the way, basically saying, come on, you can do this. Um, even when I thought I
[00:49:51] couldn't and giving, giving myself room to figure it out. I too went to seminary thinking I wasn't going to be a pastor. Um, and then after I think two weeks, I'm like, I think I'm supposed to be a pastor. What do I do now? You know? Um, but hopefully that, uh, that we can make room for other people's stories and, um, we could be really intentional about it. So thank you so much for
[00:50:16] being on the podcast and, uh, you know, Jesse missed out on this one, man. I tell you, we miss Jesse. We want to see him. All right. Take care of you guys. Well, Jason, I'm really glad you got to have that conversation with Goody and with David and, um, thanks for, you know, letting me do what I needed to get done that day. And I appreciate you guys taking that conversation on. And, um, you know, we're thinking about the future of leadership and having folks like Goody and David and Jonathan
[00:50:41] and, and many, many others, I'm sure wrestling with, where do we go from here? What do we do? And, and how do we address what is a real growing crisis or problem for us in the future of leadership? So thinking about this conversation, particularly, what are you taking away from your time with Goody and David? Yeah, for me, it was a lot about, as I expressed to them, just talking about how I felt like I was kind of part of the problem in a way, because I, even if, if I, when I've identified,
[00:51:11] um, kind of next generation, you know, potential ministers, I, I'm reticent to invite them into a process in our denomination that's, it's just kind of fraught with a bunch of infighting and it's, it's a mess. And I think what I was reminded of too is maybe, just maybe God's a little bigger than all that. And, uh, and I can't pre-decide what, what I think they're going to be exposed to
[00:51:38] or the challenges or, or the, the burdens of pastoral ministry. They're going to need to navigate that. And if I'm not doing any inviting, how is it ever going to get any better? How young people are going to feel that sense of call? Because I don't, there's not a single time I could think of in my whole call journey from coming to faith to becoming pastor here at Tower Hill that didn't involve other people inviting me another step along the way. And I, and I, I'm sure
[00:52:08] that is true of every single person's story. So how can I play a part in that pathway for these, uh, young or just even not young, just aspiring ministers or, or people who are identified that have gifts. So that was my big takeaway. I feel like I need to do better at that. Yeah. I think it's an area for, again, thinking, you know, if someone showed up right in front of you, you're going to be thinking in that, that way, probably, you know, they show in some leadership
[00:52:34] initiative and skills and you go, okay, but how do we do it also, not just individually, but then at kind of a system level and what's the culture we're creating for leaders to grow. And, you know, I think there's something to be looking at there too. I think one, one of the things that we would say is if, if churches are healthy, it's going to good leaders are, potential leaders are going to gravitate in that direction. So let's grow to be healthy communities and, and help, and trust that good leadership is going to grow out of that. So anyway, really important conversations we've been
[00:53:04] having these past weeks. Yeah. So anyway, reach out to us anytime, if you want to weigh in on this or, or anything else, uh, we love hearing from pastors and church leaders, Jesse or Jason at reclaimleader.com. And as we get ready to sign off for another episode, I just want to encourage all of you out there. I know that there's a million different things you can be working on and thinking of, and I just want to encourage you, be you, be authentically you, um, trust that God's
[00:53:32] given you the gifts that he's put you in position to do exactly what he wants you to do in your church and, and run with it. Don't try to be another pastor. Just trust, trust that God's put you there for his specific purpose. And, um, I don't know who needs to hear that, but I feel like we all do from time to time. So, uh, just a word of encouragement. That's the whole beating heart of the podcast because ministry is hard. It is so much better when we do it together. Take care.