[00:00:00] If we did the same thing that we were doing, if we maintain the state of school, we maybe had five years of life-layer. And they all are saying, we don't want that to be a reality. We want to flourish.
[00:00:11] We want to grow. We want to become what God's calling us to be. We don't exactly know what that is. But we want to... If we're going to fail, we want to go down swinging.
[00:00:26] Welcome to episode 317, where we interview Pastor Ian Rankine of the Fuckham Inn Presbyterian Church. As he shares his story of a small church that has experienced new life and how yours can too. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:40] Hey everyone, welcome back to The Reclaimed Leader Podcast. I'm Jason Tucker, back again with Jesse Skiffington. Jesse, good to see you. How's it going? Yeah, good to see you too. And yeah, great to be talking shopping.
[00:01:01] I love when we get to talk to pastors working in the trenches just like UNIR. And that's really the heartbeat behind why we wanted to start this podcast.
[00:01:09] It's just talk leadership, talk leading change in the local church with people who are doing it and helping each other out. Today we're kind of on the back end of...
[00:01:18] We've been talking strategy, we're talking really kind of concretely through how to lead change and drill and down on something. And today we're going to get a hear from Pastor who is experiencing some forward movement in leading change and a really awesome direction in his congregation.
[00:01:34] Yeah, so this is Ian Rankine. He is a friend of the podcast he's been with us before. And you know, we've had a chance to talk with him and what he's doing at Pluckham Inn Presbyterian Church in New Jersey.
[00:01:45] And here's what I love. I love a lot of things about this conversation, but this is an example of what he would say is an ordinary church. Serving just trying to be faithful that has managed to experience some revitalization, that they put in the work.
[00:02:01] They slogged it out. They tried to figure out what God's calling them to do. And they're just putting all of their chips in the middle of the table and saying let's do it.
[00:02:10] Yeah, and I love it. I can't get the episode kind of breaks along two lines as he's talking. One is sort of the background and some of the thinking that led them to move forward.
[00:02:19] I think it's important to kind of listen to that and to go, we can do something. I think it was before we even hit record with him. The every church has something that can be done.
[00:02:29] And if you feel stuck, I think the first half of the conversation is really about how to get things moving. And then the second half, we're going to drill down a little bit on one particular thing that they are doing called messy church. And so cool.
[00:02:41] Might not be the idea for every church, but it's something that they wanted to try to see what would happen given their particular situation and with young families in their community. And it's had some success.
[00:02:52] And so I love a love the way that we get to talk about that kind of how do we get things moving? And then let's find an idea. Let's try. Let's see what happens. And Ian is so excited. We probably could have talked for about two hours.
[00:03:04] I think so. It was great. It was great. So anyway without further ado, here is our interview with Ian Rankin. Well, Ian Rankin is the pastor of Placumen Presbyterian Church in New Jersey where they strive to know, show and share God's love.
[00:03:20] He was the part of the first ever Zoom coaching cohort that I did right before the pandemic dropped. And in fact, it was in the middle of that the pandemic happens.
[00:03:34] And we were supposed to go through the third part of the course and it just sort of fizzled the be honest with you. But he has had some amazing experience that I think is really helpful for all of us pastors to hear about his own churches revitalization journey.
[00:03:49] And so I want to welcome back to the podcast our friend Ian Rankin. Welcome back.
[00:03:53] Thank you Jason. It's great to be here. It's great to share a little bit more of our story as to where we'd go and send, send, send, send, send the pandemic things have been quite exciting at Placumen.
[00:04:04] Yeah, and we're going to get into to message urge which it's so funny. The churches that I talked to in the past is that I talk to who feel like, you know,
[00:04:15] We don't think we have the resources to do some big new thing or to do a new contemporary worship service or anything.
[00:04:21] I keep mentioning message urge and your experience with message urge and they are all ears. They are absolutely interested. So I know this episode's going to help a lot of folks, but before we get to that.
[00:04:33] And I want to and I understand you know, listen, you may have church members listening yet to get me as candid as he can but also understandable if you if you're a little bit careful, but take us back
[00:04:45] to write around that time of just after the pandemic and where you felt the church was
[00:04:53] Where it was maybe a little stuck and kind of what were your thoughts back then that, you know, when I came and talked to you and you invited me to come to the church and be a part of coaching there. It was like, you know, kind of late 2020.
[00:05:09] Bring us back to that space. Where was the church? Where were you at?
[00:05:13] Yeah, so late 2020 is about September of 12 or 2020. We were just going to last, right? We were determined that we wanted to do what we needed to do to keep the church flourishing and keep the church growing
[00:05:25] And we saw so many other churches that were just closing things down more and more and more and more and more.
[00:05:31] And you know, we were we were bear bones, right? There were literally four of five of us who were trying to keep things moving and trying to keep things going.
[00:05:41] And then by the I mean even in 2020, you know, even at that time in 2020, we were able to place where, you know, we were just done that we were working so hard that we were just pushing and pushing and pushing because we wanted to make sure that things were things were open things were going
[00:05:57] And that's when we brought you and board because we're like, what's the next step? What's the next thing that we need to do? How do we redefine what we need to be and what we need to do in this particular period.
[00:06:07] And you came on board, you were with us for six months, you know, you helped us. I mean, you never get, I mean, to be honest, you didn't give us anything new, right? That was part of the thing.
[00:06:19] No, when a, when a consultant comes in, I think the ideal in terms of consultancy is you're not given us anything new, but you're helping us to identify where our strengths currently are.
[00:06:31] We have some of our growth edges are and what we need to be focusing on and that's what you did. You helped to see the things that we were doing as you do that more do that better focus on that become that.
[00:06:43] And that's where we got to. And during that period, one of the things that we did was as a as a as a session that you know, in our tradition of the present year charts session are the leaders,
[00:06:58] the ordained leaders in the congregation and we came to the place where we realized that we, we in very real terms, we only had so many years of life life as a congregation if we kept under way that we were keeping on.
[00:07:14] If we did the same thing that we were doing, if we maintain the status quo, we maybe had five years of life land.
[00:07:20] And they all they're said, we don't want that to be a reality, we, we, we, we want to flourish, we want to grow, we want to become what God's calling us to be, we don't exactly know what that is.
[00:07:31] But we, we, we want to, if, if we're going to fail, right? We want to go down swinging, right? Yeah.
[00:07:39] It's really what the elders say and we have a fairly sizable indictment and it's been something that helped us financially over the years but we decided as a, as a leadership team that rather than just keeping that money in the buying could live in off the interest of that,
[00:07:56] we said, you know, let's start spending down some of that money and let's start making the commitment to become what we believe God's calling us to be for this particular period and for the next season in life of the church.
[00:08:09] So we made some very strategic decisions and some very strategic hires in terms of our, our next, our next steps and the next stages.
[00:08:20] We brought on a brand new minister of music and we had a very, very effective minister of music and it's hired in the September of 2020 and we had a period where we were kind of going to kill up to pull to grow in a few different people to help us musically with things work.
[00:08:37] We were producing it to we brought in a guy called Carl Geiger, very, very gifted musician who's helped us and so many ways to bring a very different flavor to some of the music that we're doing.
[00:08:48] He's been, he's been something that's been essential for mass each church which we'll talk about just in a little while.
[00:08:56] But we also felt that if we were going to go to the next level, if we were going to flourish as a church, we're willing to focus on not simply that people who were currently part of the church wish to be very free lovely people some wonderful folks who have been leaders in the past.
[00:09:16] They genuinely believe they've served our time, they've done what they need to do and I don't mind if any of them are listening in the hear this they would they would they've said this to me they've served but time they're not going to come into leadership again.
[00:09:28] They're willing to help but they're not willing to lead so we needed to get to a place where we were developing some leaders so we made some some very strategic hires in the church one of our elders and Chris Staffan she has led our vacation Bible school for a number of years.
[00:09:45] And I've been working with her since I started to try and coach and develop her to be our director at the Child and Family Ministry so in mid 21 she came on board as a director at the Family Ministry and things are for the lecturers and she's she's been you know she'd been connecting with families in the community and that's happened though more of the family connections have happened because we also brought on a director of communicative service.
[00:10:14] And Laura some own her name as she's phenomenal she's a tremendous job in terms of connecting with people online connecting with people in a variety of ways in online media in print media and so on and so forth.
[00:10:31] And so many of the folks and so many of the families that have connected with us over the last 18 months to the years have done so because they found us online in ways that we've never been available this work.
[00:10:43] This is so important and I just want to pause on this idea that there are so many churches who think that the best stewardship of money is never to spend it.
[00:10:54] And you're showing that good stewardship is using the resources God's giving you for such a time as this.
[00:11:04] Yeah, for sure. So I'll I'll grow up a number of times right and in terms of my congregation that the all parable of the talent right you've got there you've got the three guys the master gives them these different.
[00:11:16] I'm right one of them you know he's given so many and next one is given so many other one is given so many one of them takes him and multiplies them multiple times other one takes some done it's a well with them.
[00:11:27] But he does he doesn't all keep your the fun one better is them in the ground right and I asked the churches that have the finances and see we need to keep all of them.
[00:11:35] What happens to the guy that buddies them and they go in the master says, oh we go away. I want nothing to do with any more and that's what's going to happen to the churches. I mean very very genuinely and literally.
[00:11:48] And I happen to the churches that have got the resources and they say we need to we need to hold on to this. Where does God's given us as leaders in the church a variety of resources not to hold on to but to use and to trust him.
[00:12:04] We're not supposed to trust the resources right we're supposed to trust in God who's given us the resources and if we spend everything we've got.
[00:12:13] Then so be it because God's going to say you've trusted me and he's going to multiply that which we entrusted to him and you know that's one of the things the other say they they are they also we don't know if things are going to succeed or if things are going to feel right but if we keep things at the state of school.
[00:12:34] What are they going to feel yeah yeah. I think sometimes churches mistake.
[00:12:40] Fugality for good stewardship when that's just not the case like I am is who is a Gregory one of the ancients talked about how fragality can actually be another form of greed or it can mask our fears and when we we hoard resources because we're we were scared of what might happen if we if we use them and I think a lot of churches and I would include marine view at times we it's when we get.
[00:13:03] And then we're going to say that we don't have any of the things that we don't know what happens if we don't have enough or what happens and gets in the way of taking healthy risks and so.
[00:13:13] I'm it's so I love hearing that you didn't save it for a rainy day because it's been raining for a long time. Well it's raining now. Yeah right. Absolutely. But that's nice thing I mean what are you trusting in if you're trusting in your finances.
[00:13:27] And I'm good good for you. Good for you you know let's see how that works out for you but we're the church you know where the body of Christ we're supposed to be trusting and going so if we're if we're trusting our finances.
[00:13:39] Okay, you know you can't share both go and mom and right so I'm. Trust in your finances it's not going to work out as well as you think you know God's going to bless us.
[00:13:50] I mean one of the things has happened over the last couple years and our church in 2021 into 2022. Well I wasn't good right I'm giving draw significantly our pledges draw.
[00:14:02] I mean I'll tell you the number I mean we're we're we're so to be honest we're still not at the place we need to be. But we're moving towards it right.
[00:14:10] And a couple of years ago we had a hundred and eighty thousand dollars pledged a number of folks in the church decided you know for a variety of reasons.
[00:14:18] Some of whom was you can afford to get so the teachers not to give some of whom we don't like the direction that things are going in so we're not when it give any more.
[00:14:26] And you've got I mean you all give what a folks in your churches that they try and control you with our money right I mean we've got the same it's the same deal right.
[00:14:34] And we've got our our stewardship dropped significantly our hundred eighty thousand dollars pledged and it was like I said rock.
[00:14:40] But it was like we still need to do ministry so let's do this kid so the elders are like we don't care let's keep on doing it we've got we've got an endowment let's keep on working let's do what we need to do.
[00:14:52] And last year I mean my goodness of it's unbelievable I mean God really blessed us we had a very very strong.
[00:14:59] The church of season I've been working over the last couple of years with Doug Holwinn and he's been a great mentor and he was be with somebody that's book on on your support cast sometime ago.
[00:15:10] And you know he encouraged me in terms of you know some some different ways of thinking about stewardship. And last year are giving increase of a 20% we went from a hundred eighty thousand to two hundred and fifteen.
[00:15:24] And right now we've just finished our stewardship season and our pledges for next year have just surpassed the 250 level and we've still got a 24 pledges to come in. We're we're going to far surpass that so it's not about the money.
[00:15:41] Yes, but trust in God that if God is called people to be part of the community of faith then God is going to use those people and God is going to give us what we need.
[00:15:52] To do the work that we need to do we just have to be faithful and if he's given us resources don't afford them spend them give them a week do whatever you need to do.
[00:16:00] And I think it's more vital about that sorry Jason but I'm just a vitality of like going for it rather than sitting still.
[00:16:07] I mean this is better is more and people are drawn to that where if you're just waiting to die I don't know why that we're thinking are you waiting to die or are you going to go and swing it right you know I mean that's what the other say we have no you know I mean the reality is right we've got a large property I mean we're not a large congregation.
[00:16:26] We were at one time a number of years ago and but we've got about six million dollars worth of property okay.
[00:16:32] So if we fail, Presbyterge gets all of that right we'll be see USA right they're going to get all of that and we've got all these endonement so the so the elders would like well do we want to give all that they're getting all the property do they want all our money as well less spend all the money so that if if we fail they get the property.
[00:16:53] And the reality was if we didn't spend anything we were guaranteed to feel.
[00:16:58] Yeah but if we started making some significant investments and making some strategic cars then we would at least wear there's no guarantee to succeed I mean that's another yes you know it's all a bit trust it's all a bit think right you didn't.
[00:17:12] Yeah I was going to say it what's really important is that you didn't just write out the gate be like hey we got a down money let's make these hires you first in the important work of assessing where you are.
[00:17:23] Where you hope to go so that when the opportunity presented themselves you knew right away those were the opportunities to proceed and that's what I think a lot of churches miss.
[00:17:32] Yeah yeah no we work we work for you and you helped us to identify work what in your system is called the key resale areas so we focused on the always and said right what's the first thing we need to do.
[00:17:44] And obviously one of the first things we needed to do was bring on a director of the director for a music ministry that was at that was an essential piece right.
[00:17:53] But then the next step was to bring on a director of the family ministry because we were on old congregation within of any kids and we had a community around us.
[00:18:04] But was burgeoning with kids so we needed to have somebody who is going to attract the kids in the developed programs that was going to draw them into the church and I mean we're not we're not worse than it seems by any standard by any stretch the imagination.
[00:18:19] But the reality is we're at a place where because because we now have someone in that position we're starting to you know we're seeing incremental growth in in that particular area and then the next step was to bring in someone who is going to you know spread that word not just.
[00:18:37] Send an email to the coordination begin the world out the way the community and our next step we're actually started to think about in very very real terms.
[00:18:46] And a director of missions someone who's going to engage our mission partners our congregation or community and take that so it's not just we give money to our mission partners and other companies and information.
[00:18:58] But how do we develop engagement opportunities with in where the existing mission partners and and bring on board brand new mission partners you know so it's all about what's the next thing that we're going to do.
[00:19:11] To take us as a congregation and as part of the kingdom part of the body across to the next level I mean it's all very exciting I mean nice it is I love it.
[00:19:21] So that's scary right yeah really really exciting where we are right now what I mean we're not a new.
[00:19:28] Yeah we're not a fancy congregation you know we're not we're not we're not we're not we're not we're not we're not make a church and by any swear tiny little congregation.
[00:19:40] We want to have an impact for the kingdom of God and not we are and it's like what are you calling us to do and not we are right now. So that and that's a perfect segue.
[00:19:50] Yeah, what I was going to say is it it warms my heart so much to hear you this excited about what's going on in the church. Yeah.
[00:19:59] Not that you didn't always have a level of zeal but I know for all of us pastors during that time 2020 21 it was so certain time baby it was like.
[00:20:10] Well I was ready it quit there's a point which I would be done when I I actually invited some of the folks and I knew they didn't like me.
[00:20:18] There were several people didn't like me. Doesn't like the direction we were going in and knew they had a hard time with some of the things that we were doing and there were a fortified people I invited for a conversation.
[00:20:29] And I and I mean to be very trying I said to them. I said I believe the kingdom of the sort of event for lunch or whenever a drink or whatever it was and and I said is it's not for me to leave.
[00:20:40] I was very frank with them and these were people after they you know they they're not on board will create an intersection and going.
[00:20:47] And as it's a time for me to leave and every single one of them say that's between you and go with you got to figure out I got to know for me to say.
[00:20:55] And I was like okay go what do you want me to do and there is like you're not done here yet they're not done here yet so we're making the most of what we've got right now and I don't know what my.
[00:21:07] And I don't know what my name is. But I'm not done yet you know that's awesome that's awesome to hear so okay let's get into messy church. Mashi judge yeah when.
[00:21:18] When did you really now had you been familiar with messy church before pluck him in and what was your idea to sort of like hey this may be a thing for us to try.
[00:21:29] So so macy church we I had been familiar with it not not I'd heard it right it. I hadn't had anything to do with it before pluck him in but in the late 20-8 late 2019 early 2020.
[00:21:44] I had started to talk with some of the folks in the church about you know about about macy church what that looked like what that might be. And we've actually said to start doing macy church a couple of leaders who were were quite excited they're doing something different.
[00:22:02] You know more in terms of connecting with young families and the community. And but we've already started that in March of 2020 and then we all we all timing timing is everything timing was everything.
[00:22:16] Oh and before we continue maybe explain what macy church is for those who've never heard of it. Macy church and I macy church goes by to 2000 I think it's 2004 and poor Smith England.
[00:22:30] There was a church down there that they were they were struggling with the idea of how to connect with young families. The Sunday morning worship the love that you know the church folks and say oh they loved Sunday morning worship.
[00:22:44] But they couldn't get young families to come and the community young families to connect. The the liturgy the form of worship the organ music whatever else they were doing it just wasn't connect and with young families.
[00:22:58] So what they decided to do was to start something at a different time. The was going to connect with folks that were typically not part of the church and typically not part of any church okay.
[00:23:14] So they decided to put together this program and it was on it was in one church one community.
[00:23:21] They called the macy church and the reason they called the macy church was no you know what's some of my folks and what come and you know they they said to me as we are starting it.
[00:23:30] So we go into it for a few months and like I would come but I don't like this idea this macy you know you're making a macy.
[00:23:36] You know what if you want to come come if you don't want to come don't come that's fine we're not making a macy here's why we call a macy church.
[00:23:44] And it goes by to find an original context of this called macy church the whole idea is you know our lives are not clean our lives are all over the place.
[00:23:54] And you know particularly as parents of younger children you're pulled in so many different creation and different directions you've got karate you go soccer you go football you go music you go choir you go all kinds of things you're pulling your kids your kids are pulling you everywhere.
[00:24:12] So for so many families Sunday mornings were the only time that they had nothing schedule. Right and I've obviously talked to folks in my community folks were younger children. They won't come to church on Sunday but they'll come to macy church right because in a Sunday.
[00:24:33] And it's during the week Monday through Friday they got to get the kid ready for school on a Saturday they maybe go soccer they will choir they will. Whatever is they have they've got scouts they've got something on a Saturday but on a Sunday.
[00:24:45] They've got nothing until until the afternoon so they just don't want to come to church they don't want to be scheduled to Sunday. So this church enforcement they recognize that and they said let's find a time in the week once a month.
[00:24:58] That's going to work for families and we'll invite them to come and it's not about sitting down sitting still sitting quietly it's about family engagement. Hey reclaimed leader community do you feel overwhelmed when it comes to leading change in your church?
[00:25:17] Or maybe you feel stuck because you don't know where to start. In episode 314 through 316 we introduced our three step guide to simplify leading change and we turned it into a free PDF resource to help you get some clarity.
[00:25:32] While you have to do is go to reclaimed leader.com forward slash guide today that's reclaimed leader.com forward slash guide now back to the conversation. Sunday morning worship works for a particular generation and that's one of the things that we just need to take aside state.
[00:25:50] I've talked about double down on worship on Sunday morning right it's we we get it we set it towards and the idea of a more we have a few different things that we do for the most part as a traditional worship service.
[00:26:05] We're leading it towards the folks for women that is important because we had some folks that were upset about doing something like message arch. So if you give them what they want and what they need then they can focus on that and say that's great.
[00:26:20] I don't know what are we about whatever else you're doing right I mean one of the things I've done and I yeah I had addressed you very casually for a Sunday morning for worship.
[00:26:32] But I decided in the Sunday morning let me put the black going back on the blind robes back on and the first time I did that I had three of the older women in the church go up to me and see you look like a pastor mate.
[00:26:45] Okay so that made a difference so that let me focus on Sunday morning as Sunday morning and then whatever else we needed to do we were able to do it.
[00:26:58] So what it looks like right just just again to some of the nuts and bolts what got message arch and our context and a different context it can look quite different.
[00:27:08] But for us what it looks like we we always started them that's that's the thing you know we make sure that folks and it starts at six o'clock.
[00:27:17] We invite the com of the families and having the meal makes all the difference in the world because they don't have to get a kids who from school they don't have to prepare something.
[00:27:26] You know getting the meal get cleaned up and then come the church we have a lovely meal prepared and we've had somebody who's done that over the last few. We've been last couple years but we were at the place now where we've got a team of people.
[00:27:41] Who are serving and who are cleaning up and it's actually some of the older ladies and gentlemen in the church who are coming they came the came once to help and if all we love this.
[00:27:51] We're going to be there because they love seeing the kids right so that makes all the difference in the world so they come they help with it with the serving and they clean up and just in the last month.
[00:28:02] There's a woman who she's been coming to worship for for the last six months or so and she really wants to serve she really wants to help she's a professional caterer.
[00:28:12] And she said I want to come to the message church and I'm going to prepare the every month. Wow that's what she does now so she's she's done it once there was a lovely meal and that's that's our thing that's what she's going to do right.
[00:28:23] So we now have the meal is taken care of so that says me free to lead the the engagement worship part.
[00:28:32] It says our minister of music free to lead the music it says Chris Staff and free to prepare and whether it's a game or an event or a craft for their families.
[00:28:43] But what the night looks like we started with a meal and you know we've got people sitting around at the tables and it's grown to a regular 50 to 60 people that's where we sit right now.
[00:28:54] We've got almost as many people come to make each other's we have an assembly morning now and most of those folks don't come on a Sunday morning right.
[00:29:03] And besides the quakes I need to see that and we so we have we have the meal and then we move into worship we have we start off for those of you that familiar with them work in a traditional worship.
[00:29:16] Some worship songs together at the beginning three or four worship songs some of them are stuff that you familiar with some of them are are as it's songs that the kids have learned in vacation Bible school because we want to engage them and just keep the whole family engaged.
[00:29:31] Then one piece one piece that we have brought in I don't know if anybody else does this but it's very, very important for us is to have who we call God sightings when different traditions would call a different things you know someone may call it you know a moment of taste and they are something like that.
[00:29:46] It's an opportunity for adults for children for whoever to say you know where we see and go that work in our lives in the past month.
[00:29:55] And we've got children no say we've got a new puppy this month and we love that and we're able to care for that and remind us of how God cares for us.
[00:30:03] You know we've got somebody who's one of the leaders in our medical equipment ministry at the church which is another topic that I love to spend something you talk about.
[00:30:12] But one of the guys he talks about families and individuals that he's connected with over the course of the last month and some of the stories they are easy to tell are utterly transformative.
[00:30:22] And God is in the midst of all of that the school and all so we have different people telling different stories.
[00:30:27] And then usually I'll read up a short portion of the description of the folks at Luke I know you haven't found I know this is a great thing and I know this feels like I'm interrupting this.
[00:30:37] I said but it's important over here what God has to say to us and I want to read the scripture and I want you to make a couple of comments or not.
[00:30:44] And can I just have five to ten minutes of your thing and just if you can just listen to me for these five to ten minutes and when I give that invitation. And initially I would just start talking to the kids will be all over please.
[00:30:56] But when I'm very deliberate about inviting them and saying can you just give me five to ten minutes of your time just listen for now.
[00:31:03] And I have a conversation in the midst of that so there's some engagement there. The listen you know is very there that there was a point in which I made that switch.
[00:31:13] And then we'll finish up the worship and then we move into a game or a craft or something. There's just a lot of fun for the folks to be involved with. And as I say we've found that we've with grown and crimagantly over the last couple of years.
[00:31:28] And to now we have a very consistent 50 to 60, 55 people who are there. And they don't come in Sunday mornings. Some of them will go another church but the church is a part of and this is not a criticism of those churches.
[00:31:42] But they just don't have things or families. That's why they come to us. They're not going to join our congregation but their support doesn't work. There's a poorness in the ministry that we did. And I think my goal is not to get members for pluckerman.
[00:31:57] But my goal and I hope the goal of every church is not just to build the local congregation. It's interesting to just people with the Jesus. And if that's what we're doing, whether we're growing as a local church or no, as beside the point.
[00:32:12] The goal is if someone's meeting Jesus in your church, however they do with that next, whether they join your church or not, I should be saying the point.
[00:32:21] Let them meet Jesus and do with Jesus what we are going to do and let Jesus do with them and transform their lives and ways that they've never known before. So that's not a chill. That's awesome. You do for me as a church.
[00:32:35] I'm just we're not worse than it is seen, right? We know but at the same time we're seeing this, there's gradual incremental growth where people are being introduced to Jesus and I've been very, very�ely and very fresh way. Absolutely. But listen, don't sell yourself short.
[00:32:51] I mean, you know, I'm not very Scottish, but I'm Scottish. That's why I do. Yeah, I'm sure. But you did increase. I mean, the church basically doubled in a few years, you know, attendance has doubled in a few years because of this.
[00:33:06] I think what would be helpful to hear is and because I know the question on everyone's tongue when they hear this is okay. What'd you do?
[00:33:16] Did you just like spend your way into this massive marketing campaign to get people to come to like what was your strategy for launching it and getting it going?
[00:33:27] So we've had a few things. I mean, number one, we've got back in 2019 and we had had a preschool in the church for about 15 years and they were not doing well and we brought in a brand new body and they re and they get into the preschool.
[00:33:46] So number one, we've got, you know, I mean, I went to the night that's that's one of the strengths that we have right we've got a strong preschool in the church. So we made sure that we were connecting with the families in the preschool. Okay.
[00:34:01] And we, let's get in the weeds there. How did you connect with them? Yeah. How did that be? Well, well, I mean, it was, I mean, I'll be very honest. I mean, I got to be very frank with you.
[00:34:14] And our, we back in back, so I started in 2018 and the preschool was not doing well. I mean, when I was at before I was called to be faster at the Pokemon church,
[00:34:25] and the elders were considering closing down the preschool because it was not doing well at all. Right? And I say, well, I'm not coming. If you're going to close a preschool, I'm not coming.
[00:34:34] Because if we don't have the preschool, there's no, there's no connection with families in the community. How are we going to do that? So I, I made sure that the preschool was going to continue, but as soon as I came,
[00:34:47] it was like, ah, things are not well. Things really were not well at all. We had, we had some of the families who were on the leadership of the preschool that they loved having a very, very, almost boutique idea of what the preschool was.
[00:35:01] And, you know, there were a very few kids in the preschool. When I started, there were 35 kids in the preschool, right? And the families loved the idea that it was almost one and one. Teacher to four or five kids loved the small classes.
[00:35:17] And like this isn't going to work. And I discovered very quickly that the ranked out of the preschool was getting ready to retire. So I said, right. So let's make a plan.
[00:35:26] Let's, let's decide what we're going to do here. If you're retiring, then we need to line somebody up. He's going to come in and work with you. And when you retire, we've got someone who's ready to take us to the next level.
[00:35:38] And as we process that, one of the things that happened was we discovered there was a preschool in the area that were bursting at the seams. They were growing out of the facility they were in. And they needed more space.
[00:35:50] So we started a conversation with them and we invited them to come in and we closed. We closed their preschool. And that was not the smoothest, the easiest thing. I'm not going to get into that. But there were some issues around that.
[00:36:02] But we brought this brand new preschool in. And we went from 35 kids to 125 kids in the first year. Right? And that was 2019 then COVID hit and they maintained things. They did things online. They kept on with their families. They kept the connection. And that preschool was still flourishing.
[00:36:20] And we made sure that the preschool had everything that they needed. We have a good relationship with them. They're not a ministry of the church. They rent the space from us. But at the same time we keep a close relationship with them.
[00:36:34] And we have access to other families. They have access to our folks in the church. And we do what we need to do to make sure that we both have a good relationship with each other. So, we, we, we, we, we, we,
[00:36:45] the biggest piece that we have in the year as our vacation by the school. We invite all those families to connect and so many of the preschool families come to that. We have a number of, and it will large community events.
[00:36:57] We have a, you know, we have a full face, we have a summer festival. We have a, and Easter festival with a couple of things. And we make sure we invite all those folks to become. And there's part of that.
[00:37:09] And there's been some of those families that have connected with, uh, with our message church. Right? Yeah, so you're ready to ready to launch or thinking about launching message church. And in your first move is what your.
[00:37:20] You're reaching out, you're sending emails, you're inviting the people who already know you. Have some sort of relationship with you. And how many, how many did you start with? Day one, how many showed up for message church? Day one, maybe a bit 40 people, right? Maybe 40 people. That's great.
[00:37:37] That's great. Yeah, I mean it was a great, that's a great start. And I mean, the numbers initially the numbers fluctuated, you know, 40, 50, 20, 30, 20. But we got to the place after the first year of maintaining any where between 40 and 60.
[00:37:53] And now you were at a place where we're always 50 plus, right? And then majority of those folks that come, they're not some day morning people. Because it's as said earlier, you know, we, we've doubled down on traditional worship on a Sunday night.
[00:38:09] So that the folks from a Sunday, you know, we give you what you want and message church is message church. You want to come and message church don't come. You know why as I said, as I say, we have some folks complaining with the name,
[00:38:21] and complain with what we're doing. And it's like, he's not for you. Yeah. We're not changing the name. You don't want to come. That's all strategy. You know, having things that meet people where they are, like even the people that are. I'm sorry.
[00:38:34] We talked about a couple years back. We did a thing called a Rolling Sunday with three different types of music because we thought, Hey, let's let people worship in the music style that connects their heart most deeply to God's heart.
[00:38:47] And then we'll for the sermons will be together because that's where we can be together. Cross generation. So I think it's, sometimes we get a little grumpy with people and are like, you should be willing to change to reach the next generation.
[00:38:58] They should to some extent like we got to do things, but at the same time,
[00:39:02] if we can set everybody up for success to enjoy spending time with the Lord, the way that they have come to know and appreciate that and and to let that thrive in their in its own way.
[00:39:13] Then we can flourish as a congregation and it's when we I think to her in in some way shut the door on that or make be little people from wanting traditional things or something. That that's not the kind of the vibe that we want to go in.
[00:39:26] So let's set everybody up for success and watch the whole thing flourish. So I mean, there's a sense in which they'd be very fine. There's a sense in which we're almost two different conversations right yeah and I'm past that I'm past it.
[00:39:38] I mean one of the things I mean I've, you know, I've, I've going to, since school bit, I've really changed the way I passed the church, right? I'm, you know, I'm my, my goal is, I mean I've got essentially three teams I work with.
[00:39:54] I work with the elders, I work with the weekends and I work with the staff, right? The deacons care for the correlation and they call me and if I need to do something.
[00:40:01] So I mean I think I think as past it we need to be very, very conscious of what is our role. You know, are we, you know, I'm one of the things that the co-go and I talked about, which, you know, the apest model,
[00:40:14] the proposals for all these teachers, evangelists and shepherds. You know, what is your role as a pastor? And you know, you need to be very, very clear on what you're, on what you're, on what you're all edge.
[00:40:27] And my role has, I mean, during COVID, my role changed drastically. I became very administrative and very much focused on the technology and everything like that.
[00:40:38] But it's more than to, I mean, I don't deal with the need to be past it will clear. There's no what I do. My goal and it's not a big church, right?
[00:40:46] But my goal is to, is to build up the leaders in the, in the, in the congregation so that they can care for the other people that are, the wider coordination and bring me in when I need to come in.
[00:40:58] You know, I don't need to be involved in everybody's everyday stop and initially I feel, what have we guilty about that? Because I'm a pastor, I need to be involved in everybody's life and the reality is I don't. And none of us do.
[00:41:10] You know, as I said, you know, we're, we're trained in an aporticular way, but the way that so many of us are still being trained. It doesn't work any more and it's not what the church is and it's not what the church needs to be.
[00:41:23] And we need to be very, very, and cognition of that is pastors. Our rule is very different from the older rule of pastor's voice. And they, and embrace that and don't feel guilty about it. You're not visiting people every week or every month.
[00:41:39] And some people you'd maybe not see in a told, that's okay. That's hard for some of us. And what it is, it's a good solution for me. As, as the kids say, Ian, I hear no lies and what you're saying. And I'm with, I'm with you 100%.
[00:41:53] Hey, listen, we're just about out of time. Ian, I am so glad you came on with us today. I think this is such an important thing for pastors to hear.
[00:42:02] And if, if listen, if a pastor's out there listening to this, like, hey, can I reach out to Ian, ask me about message church? What's a way that folks can reach out to you?
[00:42:12] Yeah, so you can check it on website ppch.org. You can get in touch with me that way. My email is very, very simple. It's pastor ppch.org.
[00:42:23] You know, just reach out to me that way. I'd love to talk to you about message church. I'd love to talk to you about where we are.
[00:42:30] I mean, there's nothing special on it, me. I mean, I'm just a guy who's doing what I can do for Jesus. That's it. Right? And that's what I've covered you all, do. Just do what you are called to do when you can do for Jesus.
[00:42:41] And there's very, so it's me check a certain Facebook. You just look up, Pluckerman were the only pluckerman in the whole of the world. You know, I, you know, those laws of times, you know, Springfield is in every single state in the US.
[00:42:54] But pluckerman that is one pluckerman is in New Jersey. You look up Pluckerman. You will find us. Okay. So check a show. That starts the base when you can find me. Okay. I love it. And thank you so much for being with us.
[00:43:07] What about somebody about seven or seven? I love that. You know, yeah, there's, there's this stuff. They stuff. There's so much going on. This, I mean, but a little tiny, but a little tiny church.
[00:43:17] But I'm so excited. I'm going to go do it in our midst. And yeah, if you want me back, I'd love to come back and talk about something other stuff is going on. It's great. It really integrate.
[00:43:25] Thank you so much, brother. So excited to hear what's going on at Pluckerman and can't wait to hear the next time we talk. Take care. Go bless you.
[00:43:34] Jason, so much fun. Ian, such a fun guy to talk to. It's so personal and full of joy and passion for what he's doing. And I know that, I don't know. I just can't wait to see how that continues to impact that community where he is in Pluckerman.
[00:43:48] So Ian, thank you for being on with us. And one thing I wanted to know, you know, he mentioned Doug Hogan and A pest. And for those that maybe are wondering what that is.
[00:43:57] There's a book by Alan Hirsch called the permanent revolution that kind of spells that out. If you're looking to drill down on how to shift the congregations thinking from pastor as shepherd teacher to pastor as leader or vision and kind of thinking differently about how that all goes.
[00:44:14] That's a great resource. Just wanted to mention that as I was thinking about it here. No, that's great. Thank you. And again, you know, it's so funny. Even after we stopped recording and we were talking to him. He just kept saying,
[00:44:25] you know, we're not again. You know, I'm nothing special that you know, it's nothing. Churches and anything special. It's just we're just being faithful. Faithfuls we can be. And I think that'll preach, you know, it's it's not about you have to have the most.
[00:44:37] The most incredibly gifted upfront people and all of that. You just faithful as faithfulness is the metric God cares about anyway. Yeah. I love I love the idea of going down swinging.
[00:44:51] I think that's where a lot of denominational churches, longstanding churches are kind of had a maybe a hate a season that is no more. And for all kinds of reasons culturally and things that have happened in our world, but I like this idea. Let's just go for it.
[00:45:07] Why why go quietly? Let's let's let's put some things on into play and see what happens. I love that kind of thinking and I think it's energizing for a community and this idea of being able to pass the baton potentially to the next generations.
[00:45:20] As a beautiful thing and so yeah, I hope people are inspired to go for it. If anything else just go for it. See what God does.
[00:45:27] Well hey, thanks everyone for listening. I hope this has been helpful to you. And as we again are kind of drive the freight trains drive in towards Christmas.
[00:45:35] I pray that that God is blessing you and your ministries together reach out anytime Jason or Jesse at reclaimed leader dot com.
[00:45:42] And if you have an extra minute, leave us a review wherever you like to listen to your podcast. It helps people to find us or better yet telecolly and have them take a listen. But anyway, thanks so much and we'll catch you next time.