[00:00:00] There's a whole bunch of other trite sayings we could put around that there are no short
[00:00:04] guts to the things that matter most. There is no easy button right but gradual progress
[00:00:09] in a direction even with fits and starts is going to lead to somewhere good so stick
[00:00:13] with it. Welcome to episode 333 this month we're starting
[00:00:18] a new series on leadership what kind of leader do you need to be in order to lead change?
[00:00:24] Seminary doesn't really teach it, it's usually on the job training. So we start with three
[00:00:28] leadership questions to consider. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:32] Hey everyone welcome to episode 333 of The Reclaimed Leader, I'm Jason Tucker back with Jesse
[00:00:45] Skiffington. Jesse how was Easter man? Easter good? We're on the other side we made it
[00:00:51] and now it's time to talk about what's next. Yeah I love you know it's always fun
[00:00:57] and there's sort of a high and low of Easter right you go all the prep work you ramp up
[00:01:01] you have a great Sunday and then it's almost like a whoo and coming out the back end
[00:01:06] because of how much energy and effort went into that. So hopefully people are able to
[00:01:12] take a deep breath maybe you have somebody preaching for you you know coming up or something
[00:01:17] like that and getting a little breather and just recognizing that you've just done something
[00:01:23] together as a team and as a leader and as if you're the senior pastor or pastor of your
[00:01:28] church you know that what it takes. And so hopefully you're getting some time to breathe
[00:01:32] and so we're gonna kind of pivot from some I don't know what to do practically kinds
[00:01:38] of stuff to kind of just thinking about leadership in general. Talking about how do we
[00:01:43] lead well in the church? What do we need to do for ourselves to lead well in the church?
[00:01:47] What are some best practices to keep in mind kind of bigger picture stuff and then we have
[00:01:51] a guest that coming up that we're gonna talk about what kinds of what's the vision for
[00:01:55] pastoral leadership in the church today that's needed in the post pandemic context. So
[00:02:00] leadership all month long and this is where you know me I this is where I really we geek
[00:02:04] out on this stuff yeah you and I love it and that's why we started the podcast truly was
[00:02:09] because we wanted to talk shop about what we're doing in our churches and strategy and
[00:02:13] stuff but more than anything we wanted to talk about leadership how do you thrive in
[00:02:18] flourish as a leader in the local church and how do you how do you stay in for the long
[00:02:22] haul what do you do when you get tired how do you how do you navigate things and how do
[00:02:26] you lead change in the local church and so leadership is our our lane and it's something
[00:02:32] that was I think kind of missing from a lot of our theological educations you know is we
[00:02:38] think a lot of the training around that and so we kind of have to learn on the job a lot
[00:02:43] of that. And that's why the bottom row my bookshelf it's probably I don't know 13 foot long
[00:02:47] bookshelf is all leadership books. I haven't read all of them most of them I've glanced
[00:02:51] through at least but thinking about in terms of how do you lead an organization and do that
[00:02:55] well for the sake of the mission that God has given you so we're talking leadership today
[00:02:59] the next couple of weeks and I can't wait.
[00:03:02] Yeah so Jesse I know that now while I have not seen them all I know that all around you
[00:03:08] in your office you have signs yes I mean signs like you know sign from heaven a sign from
[00:03:15] well I mean I guess maybe but but you put up signs around you with different reminders
[00:03:22] quotes saying things that help you to stay focused and on the path that you're hoping
[00:03:29] to be on so I know we're going to get to some of these signs today. So let's maybe let's
[00:03:34] tease that a little bit so what would you do if you find something that really resonates
[00:03:38] with you and you don't want to forget it it finds a place yeah kind of new year.
[00:03:44] I think as you're gone as you're leading things sometimes will jump out at you at a conference
[00:03:49] or maybe as you're reading something a leadership book or something and it kind of sticks
[00:03:54] with you and you want it to be a principle or a kind of a virtue of your leadership
[00:03:59] that you carry with you that you don't want to lose sight of or forget about and at least
[00:04:03] for me as a leader I tend to be a bigger picture thinker and so I'm kind of living in
[00:04:07] the present or even a few moments ahead and looking ahead sometimes I forget some of
[00:04:11] those core things so for me I type them out on a eight and a half by 11 piece of paper
[00:04:16] and make them big and I tape them on my wall and there's a whole collection of them over
[00:04:22] here. I didn't put them behind us because that would just be annoying everywhere but I
[00:04:25] got a wall of them and I wanted to look at a few of them today just why I have them
[00:04:31] there and what they remind me of as a leader and maybe they'll be useful for you maybe
[00:04:36] you put them on your wall or maybe you're like listen I can remember them I don't need
[00:04:39] a wall for whatever. So this episode we're calling three leadership signs that I hang
[00:04:45] on my office wall and we're going to look at three of those and we do have a bonus one
[00:04:49] at the end so we'll have a fourth so we'll get into that but the first one is about
[00:04:55] as a leader recognizing that if everything ends up on your desk and you have to be
[00:05:03] the key decision maker all the time for everything you will be the sailing on your organization.
[00:05:09] It will only go as far as you are capable of and the time that you have to give to it
[00:05:13] and we've talked a lot about decision fatigue over the years and the exhaustion of all
[00:05:18] the decisions we have to make as leaders all the time and so how do you empower decision
[00:05:23] making in the life of the church? How do you give appropriate levels of authority to decide
[00:05:29] in the direction of the mission to the various people that you work with whether they're
[00:05:32] key volunteers or elders or your staff if you have staff members how do you do that?
[00:05:37] And so the sign that I have for that is that's a great question you decide.
[00:05:42] I love it. Yeah, I don't remember who we got that one from I'm sure that's been around
[00:05:47] for a long time that's a great question you decide in other words I trust you to make
[00:05:53] a good decision for us and for our organization. Now sometimes I'll have a staff member
[00:05:58] or a key volunteer coming to my office and they'll they'll say hey what should we do
[00:06:02] about filling the blank? What should we do about trunk or treat this year? Should we have
[00:06:08] it in the parking lot here or should we move it over here and I point to this sign and
[00:06:12] I'm sure they roll their eyes because they're like but what I want to do is say I trust
[00:06:18] you that's a great question you decide. If we become the primary decision maker for
[00:06:24] our organization about everything we're really hogging things and actually getting in the
[00:06:29] way of some good things happening. So I don't know Jason how do you handle that conversation?
[00:06:33] Yeah, so I feel like I've gotten a lot better at this over the years because I don't know
[00:06:38] that I realized the sort of culture I was accidentally creating when things had to come
[00:06:44] across my desk aside from a hiccup in the throws of the pandemic when everything all of a sudden
[00:06:52] was on my desk. When I was starting out really doing some of the big vision work here at
[00:06:59] the church on mat, I had a hard time delegating things out because I felt like I had to protect
[00:07:07] the culture that we were trying to create. And so instead of hey that's a great question
[00:07:14] you decide that's a great question I'll decide right? And it wasn't because I wanted to
[00:07:20] be the man you know or I wanted to but I felt like not everybody was living breathing
[00:07:27] division in the same way I was and so I was worried they would make a decision that wasn't
[00:07:33] in alignment. Now looking back what I should have done was to say that's a great question
[00:07:41] you decide according to our vision. That's right, yeah. Right? I should have put it back
[00:07:46] on them and asked them to run it through the filter of the vision but I didn't do that.
[00:07:51] Yeah. And that's the criteria that has to live alongside this we're not just going I don't
[00:07:56] want to be bothered that's not what we're saying. We're saying you know I trust you here's
[00:08:00] the vision in mission let's remind ourselves of that does this fit with the direction that
[00:08:04] we're going in and if it does then I'm on board and I remember having a few times where
[00:08:10] staff would you know come in and say hey I would like your input on this and they understand
[00:08:16] that I really trust them with the decision but that I can be a sounding board for them. So
[00:08:21] this is a mean that you don't get to wrestle things out with your staff and think about it
[00:08:24] and try to make sound decisions together but it's not it's giving up on that that pressure
[00:08:30] to be the one that has to make the call every time and and giving appropriate levels of decision
[00:08:34] making away within and again toward the mission and I'm with you when when we were doing
[00:08:39] a season of high change and I was in tons of those rooms and meetings needing to set culture.
[00:08:45] A lot of the decision making did need to kind of come back to me for a while but that wasn't
[00:08:51] going to be sustainable for forever right and you can't live that way forever especially
[00:08:55] if you want to see things sort of grow and develop organizationally and I think there's
[00:09:00] a great decision making model it's called the tree decision making model I think I've
[00:09:05] shared this before here but it's how do we empower people to make level appropriate
[00:09:10] decisions based on the level they are in the organization and empower them and trust
[00:09:14] them to do that and then live with the consequences when it goes well or doesn't go well but you
[00:09:19] have to have clarity around your vision of mission what you're trying to do together
[00:09:23] and then you let people loose within that tree decision making process so I'll just play
[00:09:28] in the tree real quick because why not yeah yeah the tree if for those that may not remember
[00:09:32] is I think it's from Susan Scott but maybe somebody else had come up with that before
[00:09:37] that but we want everybody at marine view to fill permission to make leaf level decisions
[00:09:43] for us. Decaf coffee regular coffee for the community group night I don't know you decide
[00:09:48] what he thinks going to best set people up for success like blue paper green paper I don't
[00:09:53] know you decide you know should we have the door open or closed for you know like you decide
[00:09:58] and then if it doesn't go well we've lost a leaf off the tree it's not that big of a deal
[00:10:03] but we want to empower people to help us do things around the church and so you have permission
[00:10:09] do what you think is best is best for that so we want that to be true for everybody that's a part
[00:10:13] of marine view and then the next layer is the branches the branches are a little more
[00:10:19] you know important to the life of the tree right but if you break a branch the tree doesn't die
[00:10:24] so a lot of times these are our our ministry team or staff level decisions we're going to use
[00:10:28] this curriculum we're gonna do vbs differently this year we're gonna try xyz activity and if you
[00:10:36] break a branch it makes an impact and we'll come along and say hey what happened to the branch
[00:10:41] and how do we avoid breaking branches again but again we want people to be empowered in the
[00:10:46] appropriate way with our staff and our teams to make those kinds of decisions for us so that at
[00:10:51] the session level or our senior leadership team of our elders we can make trunk and at level
[00:10:56] decisions trunk level decisions are things like setting the annual budget deciding to hire a new
[00:11:02] staff position or not for a certain role or some some other bigger picture maybe a capital campaign
[00:11:08] or something these are trunk level things if you get them wrong it's going to leave a scar it's
[00:11:13] going to have an impact on the tree so you take some discernment some time you think about those
[00:11:18] things and we trust those decisions to our our staff and elders together and discernment
[00:11:23] and then root level decisions are things the whole congregation needs to wrestle with
[00:11:26] who's our senior pastor gonna be our next one what denomination are we gonna belong to
[00:11:32] you know those are things if you get the root level decisions wrong it's gonna not just have
[00:11:36] a small impact it'll kill the tree so those are things you sit with for a year or multiple years
[00:11:41] to really wrestle through so we want to empower decision making at appropriate levels through
[00:11:45] the organization and a good way to do that is to take people's questions and turn them around
[00:11:51] and say I'm gonna give your question back to you that's a great question I'm willing I'm happy
[00:11:56] to be here to help you wrestle with it but then I want you to decide because I trust you to make
[00:12:00] a good decision for us and for the mission you know what's really cool is when the fruit of this
[00:12:05] is that you have a whole bunch of people who not only understand the vision but who live and breathe
[00:12:11] it and they will start making vision based decisions yeah and that's really what you want yeah so
[00:12:19] for example we someone on our leadership team uh she was she was upset with some behavior of a
[00:12:27] congregation member because this congregation member was effectively telling someone they couldn't
[00:12:35] sit in their seat right um and in our in our leadership meeting she's just like this is not who
[00:12:44] we are this is not our vision this goes against everything she sort of rattled off everything about
[00:12:50] what our mission and vision is and I was never happier because and that only comes over time of
[00:12:57] building trust and letting people own the vision by making appropriate level decisions I think that
[00:13:04] spot on Jason so it is really about trust and so our management style here at Marine View is
[00:13:08] management by exception in other words we're going to really trust you to do the things that you
[00:13:12] need to do to make your ministry thrive in the context of our vision and mission if a branch gets broken
[00:13:18] something happens we're gonna come and say hey what happened how can we help how do we avoid doing
[00:13:22] that in the future but we're not looking over everybody's shoulder all the time and that helps
[00:13:26] our mission go further uh with more people filling and powered to to be a part of it so that's
[00:13:31] the first one that's a great question you decide with all the nuances that we just talked about right
[00:13:38] the second one is I think came out of north point maybe Andy Stanley I think it did yeah I think so
[00:13:43] and it was uh Andy Stanley it was reflecting on his own leadership when times when he's felt stuck
[00:13:50] there is a decision that is on your plate or you're facing a conflict that you need to navigate
[00:13:56] or something and you're not sure what to do and you're you never maybe been down that road before
[00:14:01] even or if you have it was traumatic and you're not sure what to do now to avoid some of the pitfalls
[00:14:07] or from before and so he asked this question I thought it's been helpful to me many times
[00:14:13] it goes something like uh what would a great leader do so that's the one I have in my wall and
[00:14:20] I think another way to say that if I were a great leader what would I do another way to ask that same
[00:14:25] question but what would a great leader do if I was Abraham Lincoln what would I do right now if
[00:14:30] I was you know whoever you admire and respect as as a leader who's made wise thoughtful uh well discern
[00:14:37] decisions what would they do it sort of takes you out of the equation it gives you a chance to kind
[00:14:42] of brainstorm apart from some of the emotions and the intensity of your particular situation what
[00:14:47] would a great what would Jason do right now uh Jesse just put yourself in Jason's shoes and do that
[00:14:54] well you know this question actually has served me really well yeah it's one that I've I've just
[00:15:00] always remember because maybe because when you're going through things and you're not you're not
[00:15:05] sure how to deal with them you do feel a little bit of imposter syndrome and you feel like do I
[00:15:11] can I can I do this can I do this in a healthy and productive way how do I get out of the way
[00:15:16] of my emotions their emotions or whatever it is what would a great leader do sort of hit gets me
[00:15:23] back to zero it gets me back to okay well wait a second let's let's take you know I'm I'm
[00:15:28] it's all sort of on top of me right now how do I just zoom out on Google earth and get a little more
[00:15:35] perspective and say okay well take that out for a second what would a great leader do what needs
[00:15:40] another it's another way of saying you already know what needs to be done in this issue so how do
[00:15:45] you have the forwarded to actually yeah you often know the right answer or the what the wise
[00:15:50] course ought to be but then you have to somehow drum up the courage to see it through and isn't that
[00:15:56] what great leaders had that we admire in respect they have resolve yeah they're determined to
[00:16:01] follow that course because it is the wise right course regardless of personal cost and all of
[00:16:06] that and so it gives us courage I think to pull up and ask that question and of course if you're
[00:16:13] you know if you're around in the 90s this makes you think of another question what would Jesus do
[00:16:17] right which is what would a servant leader do what was somebody who's not going to be defensive and
[00:16:23] not be selfish and who's gonna be humble and wise in their approach here what would they do what
[00:16:28] would what is what would that look like and I think it is one of those questions that you know
[00:16:33] that's why I haven't on my walk because I don't have I don't remember it like you do I I need to
[00:16:38] be able to recall that and go if I was a great leader I would really stick it out right here even
[00:16:43] though it's hard I'm gonna see this one through so I think it gives us courage it gives us permission
[00:16:48] to take see the big picture step back for a minute take a deep breath and then move forward and
[00:16:53] again it's you know it's just a kind of a pithy little short thing but it can serve you really
[00:16:59] well in leadership if you put yourself into somebody else's shoes for for a minute and think in terms
[00:17:05] of just leadership what would a wise leader do right now what would a great leader do yeah and
[00:17:11] also a variation of that is sometimes I think you know what would it look like to speak truth and love
[00:17:17] yeah what would that look like in this particular situation it's very related I find myself asking
[00:17:22] both those questions pretty often and and it's it's saying like if you want to be a good leader
[00:17:28] in this situation this is what you need to do and you need to get out of whatever fears you have
[00:17:33] or whatever sort of emotional thing you're going through in the experience it's usually the
[00:17:38] interpersonal stuff you have to have a difficult conversation with somebody that you don't want
[00:17:42] to have and everything and you wants to avoid it and you know that if you avoid it it's only
[00:17:48] gonna get worse it has to get a you know you gotta do it right so cultures that's just me over the
[00:17:52] edge right yeah it's it's your culture's that state it helps you think about the bigger picture
[00:17:57] and again it kind of almost comes back to that that thought of you know the way things are is
[00:18:02] what you've either created or allowed the culture that you have and I think sometimes we
[00:18:07] we get shy in our leadership because it's hard it's hard to make good wise consistent decisions
[00:18:12] and it's hard to have hard conversations and it takes resolve and it takes a really a deep sense
[00:18:19] of commitment to the cause or to the what you're hoping to see happen and so anyway I've found
[00:18:24] this one to be helpful so it's on the top layer of one of it's I love it I love it okay third
[00:18:29] sign is just a reminder for me as someone who thinks more big picture and yet we need to be able
[00:18:36] to drill down and and set people up for success and the things that we're doing are asking them to do
[00:18:41] or the groups or activities that we're a part of and so one of the signs I have it's it's one
[00:18:47] of the more practical signs it says did you remind did you follow up did you remind did you follow
[00:18:53] and it really came out of an experience I had with a really capable leader at that every time we
[00:19:01] would meet I would get an email or a text the day before hey just checking in is it still going to
[00:19:06] work to meet tomorrow reminder and then hey Jesse was so much fun I'm glad we got to connect
[00:19:11] praying for you about filling the blank what we talked about a follow up it validated
[00:19:15] relationship it checked signals it it was easy and simple and didn't take a lot of time but did
[00:19:21] you remind did you follow up and so I take that approach with people I meet with now I take
[00:19:27] that approach with our staff team if I ask them to do something and I need them to follow through
[00:19:34] I remind them and then I follow up how did it go if I'm meeting with a group we have a Sunday
[00:19:40] Morning Men's group that meets early and I basically preach them to sermon before I preach
[00:19:44] the sermon which is always fun for them I'm sure but we have a discussion based men's group
[00:19:49] before early on Sunday mornings and I'll send a reminder email on Friday hey guys here's
[00:19:55] what we're talking about can't wait to see on Sunday then I'll also send a follow up email hey
[00:19:59] here's you know some of the things we talked about here's what we're praying for this week
[00:20:03] in each other's lives there's just something there for me that's practical that has served me well
[00:20:08] in in validating relationships and and it's something of ensuring more of a follow through
[00:20:14] because people know that you're paying attention yeah no that's really good I think I definitely need
[00:20:22] reminders to do this because it really shows your investment in someone when you're willing to
[00:20:30] sort of book end your meeting with that I think the problem that I run into is that I feel like
[00:20:34] I'm just stuck I'm in so many meetings and I yeah and I'm just like one to the next to the next
[00:20:38] that this is something that often just goes neglected yeah it's hard I and it can't be it's not
[00:20:43] practical in every case I would say if you're if you're meeting with someone one-on-one that you
[00:20:49] want to grow that relationship and it that's that's a time to do it if it's someone you meet with all
[00:20:54] the time I don't know if you need to do that every time with your best buddy like hey remember we're
[00:21:00] meeting and oh boy did I enjoy that mean like I pick your battles or whatever but I found that when
[00:21:05] I do this strategically with certain people in certain groups it it it validates that relationship
[00:21:10] and actually leads to better outcomes so with a group for instance when I do that we tend to see
[00:21:17] the group size grow because you're reminding people hey I can't wait to see you don't forget about
[00:21:22] this here's what we're looking at and boy was it good to be together and I can't wait to see
[00:21:26] you next time like it just it sort of has a catalytic effect in a group setting or if you're
[00:21:32] discipling somebody and you're you need to show that you care and you're invested in that relationship
[00:21:37] that's another way to do that so you don't need to do it all the time but around key things or
[00:21:42] strategic things or if there's a key follow-through for a volunteer staff member reminders and follow-ups
[00:21:47] are are really important I love it that's super helpful yeah so yeah so there's three so three
[00:21:54] signs I have many others but we're not gonna get too long that was everybody would stop listening
[00:22:00] that's a great question you decide with the nuances under that of sound decision making with
[00:22:04] individual mission what would a great leader do sort of a servant-hearted leader a courageous leader
[00:22:09] a leader with resolve what would they do and give you help and then did you remind did you follow up
[00:22:15] and I did have one bonus one and this is good news bad news this is a good news bad news sign
[00:22:20] and it goes something like this success and failure happen gradually then suddenly so in other words
[00:22:29] if you're chipping away in the right direction over time it may not feel like you're making like progress
[00:22:34] but you probably are and one day you're gonna look up and go wow look how far we've come
[00:22:39] the same thing can happen in the other direction no you give up on healthy practices healthy habits
[00:22:45] you sort of get into maintenance mode and you're just putting one foot in front of the other and
[00:22:48] pretty soon you find that you've gotten into a place that you don't want to be so success in
[00:22:53] half failure happen gradually then suddenly and that concept comes from a book by Ernest Hemingway
[00:22:58] the son also rises I don't know if you know that one there's a guy that's been a while yeah there's
[00:23:04] a character named Mike in the book who was talking about his how he went bankrupt and he says
[00:23:11] gradually then suddenly he says like it was suddenly and then all at once you know all at once
[00:23:18] gradually then all at once he said so I think there's something about building up little bricks of
[00:23:24] of habits and disciplines and leadership in the right direction that one day you're gonna look
[00:23:28] up and go look how far we've come look what how I've grown as a leader look what we developed into
[00:23:34] as a culture in our staff team and that slow steady progress is going to pay off but the same can be
[00:23:39] true in the opposite direction yeah if you're not investing in those habits and disciplines you're
[00:23:44] gonna look up one day and go how did we get here where we're not healthy where people are at each
[00:23:49] other's throats or we're not we're not moving the mission forward so that was a good reminder for
[00:23:54] me always it's on the bottom row though because I that one's to me I go okay that's a longer term
[00:24:02] view and not something you have a ton of control over but your daily habits and disciplines will add up
[00:24:08] in some direction or another so that's I really like that one because it's a reminder to trust
[00:24:13] the process right it's it's a reminder to you keep doing the work and it's gonna show up I
[00:24:18] was just meeting with a church and they were asking about our our small groups and you know well
[00:24:25] how many how many folks do your church do small groups and and I told them I said look
[00:24:30] our most recent round we have a lot you know we're like 400 people in our small groups it's awesome
[00:24:36] but I mean and that's that's wonderful we love it we're excited about it but that did not happen
[00:24:42] overnight that was that was 10 years in the making it was exactly 10 years ago that we tried our first
[00:24:51] small group we did um we did North Point's curriculum right the starting point starting point
[00:25:00] curriculum yeah and we had two groups willing to do it I think each one had maybe seven or eight
[00:25:06] people in it and we went through it and that was kind of it we tried some other groups and
[00:25:16] it was like the same people interested but they didn't want to do the same thing again
[00:25:19] and then just people just kind of wouldn't do anything and so we didn't really offer much
[00:25:24] we kept trying different things and fits and starts that didn't really work
[00:25:29] and finally all that groundwork about why it's important to get into a small group finally started
[00:25:36] to resonate maybe a year or two before the pandemic so that once the pandemic hit and everybody saw
[00:25:45] the value of being together yeah it made sense to get involved and man it was just it was a grind
[00:25:53] but it's a great reminder it just didn't happen overnight it happened with constant trying and
[00:25:59] grind there's a whole bunch of other tried things we could put around that there are no short cuts
[00:26:03] to the things that matter most there is no easy button right but gradual progress in in a direction
[00:26:09] even with fits and starts is gonna lead to somewhere good so stick with it I think good
[00:26:13] great talks about discipline people discipline thought discipline action at some point
[00:26:19] it's gonna lead to something good and you have to maintain hope in that even when it's
[00:26:23] hard right now so stick with it stick with it do the the wise thing do you know practice these healthy
[00:26:29] habits as leaders and invest in the direction you want to go and if you're going to do that again
[00:26:35] all this is sort of as a backdrop assume something of a clarity around your vision of mission what
[00:26:41] is it that you're trying to accomplish what is the culture that you're trying to build what is the
[00:26:45] ideal that you're working toward and I think if if you don't have that that would be a step that
[00:26:52] I would encourage you to take get some clarity about what you want to see happen and then make
[00:26:55] some progress toward it success and failure happened gradually then suddenly Jason so hopefully
[00:27:00] we have more of the success in the failure yeah right well pastors I hope you're listening to this
[00:27:06] episode on a beach somewhere uh that you're getting some relaxing in and I hope that you'll join us
[00:27:12] for the rest of this month where we are we are really zoning in on leadership next week we have
[00:27:17] a guest Caitlin Wood and it's a I love our conversation in next week's episode do I just kind of tease
[00:27:23] up uh yeah or preview Caitlin a little bit Caitlin's uh Caitlin's fantastic she's part of the
[00:27:29] denomination that I'm connected to eco covenant order of evangelical press veterans who works on
[00:27:34] the step on staff with the national office and her title is really interesting kind of newer position
[00:27:40] and her she's the director of church health and so we're going to be talking a little bit about what
[00:27:44] we mean by that what she means by that and uh and then just kind of drilling down on some of the things
[00:27:49] that she experienced as a pastor working in the local church as a as a solo pastor and figuring all
[00:27:54] that out and what what kind of leadership is needed right now in in the life of the church
[00:28:01] and I I found it to be a really great conversation just really helpful for us to talk about time kind
[00:28:07] of talk shop with the leader who's been in the trenches and now seeing things from a little bit
[00:28:11] the bigger vantage point at working with the national office yeah it was great and and the fun
[00:28:17] thing about about Caitlin is that she was the last guest we had before the workshop so four years
[00:28:25] ago it was almost exactly four years ago when we recorded it that uh we had her on and it's just
[00:28:30] it's so wild to think about how much has happened in that amount of time definitely not one to miss
[00:28:35] you should come and listen and hear what Caitlin has to share absolutely well hey thanks everyone
[00:28:40] for listening we hope that however this podcast is finding you that it's helping you in your journey
[00:28:46] in your leadership and your life because that's what we're here for our goal is to encourage you
[00:28:52] to help you find some resources and tools to add to your to your toolbox to keep keep the
[00:28:58] revitalization moving forward so as we always say ministry is hard it's so much better when we do it
[00:29:05] together