[00:00:00] Pastor Joe of Lead Revitalization and one of the themes that kept coming up that I thought was so interesting was
[00:00:06] and pastors talking about no one really prepared me for the level of hurt and disappointment over people leaving. Welcome to episode 334
[00:00:18] Today we welcome Pastor Caitlin Wood back to the podcast our last guest before the COVID lockdown
[00:00:24] and now four years later she's the director of Church Health for ECO
[00:00:28] We talk leadership revitalization and helping churches flourish us today on The Reclaimed Leader
[00:00:41] Hey everyone welcome to episode 334 of The Reclaimed Leader I'm Jason Tucker back with Jesse Skiffington
[00:00:47] How's it going Jesse?
[00:00:48] Jason we met it through Easter and then another one will come pretty soon just time flies right
[00:00:56] but anyway we're talking leadership we're talking shop and keeping the conversation going
[00:01:01] and all along really we're just talking about kind of what is needed in leadership in the
[00:01:06] local church these days and how are we doing and and and all of that and our guest today is going to
[00:01:11] help us just kind of think about that in this in this way of inviting us to be something of a
[00:01:16] well-rounded healthy leader and and what does that even look like yeah what do we do whatever that
[00:01:23] does that even look like it's well I do think it's important because you sort of have these two
[00:01:30] different ideas that appear at first glance to be at odds and that's that's the sort of shepherd
[00:01:37] model of pastoring and the CEO or leadership model of pastoring and the difference between
[00:01:45] strategies and spiritual formation as if those two things were separate things right and and
[00:01:51] usually depending on how you're wired you have a bias one way or another and you feel like the
[00:01:56] only way to grow as a church is to be one or the other and what I love about this interview with
[00:02:01] Caitlin is that she really talks a bit about the necessity for both so tell us a bit about
[00:02:07] Caitlin Wood and and how you know her through your time well Caitlin of course is a friend of the
[00:02:12] podcast we had her on as we talk about an interview here I think we mentioned it at the beginning but
[00:02:17] we had her on right before the pandemic and Caitlin had been writing before it was like the week of
[00:02:22] or the week before or something and she'd been leading change in the in the local church where she
[00:02:26] was as the lead pastor and doing a lot of good work hard work they took out the pews put in chairs
[00:02:31] created a multi purpose space they they went through a lot that was leading to some good
[00:02:37] metrics so like good things are happening they're growing they're healthy and then the pandemic
[00:02:41] shuts it all all down so Caitlin and I've kind of stayed in touch through our connection in eco
[00:02:46] eco's the denomination I'm a part of here marine views a part of a called covenant order of
[00:02:51] evangelical Presbyterians and so we've known each other through that world and Caitlin actually
[00:02:57] is recently stepped into a new role that talk a little bit about today but someone that I wanted to
[00:03:02] to bring back to have a conversation hopefully no pandemics happen next week but to help us think
[00:03:08] about that well-rounded leadership that out of the pandemic we've sort of learned that we need both
[00:03:14] systems-minded leader types or a or within each of us even a system-minded leader part of our role
[00:03:22] as pastor but it needs to be paired with something healthy in in in our own soul in an our approach
[00:03:27] as sort of a shepherd or pastor for our congregations and how do we how do we live that out and
[00:03:32] what is it going to take now so it's a little bit of where we're gone in the conversation and
[00:03:37] hopefully wherever you land and if you lean one way or another on your kind of your personality
[00:03:42] and wiring this will be a reminder that something of both is needed for healthy churches these days
[00:03:50] yeah so pastors I think you're gonna love this interview so let's get to it here's our interview
[00:03:55] with Caitlin Wood well hey everybody we are very excited to have a guest with us today Caitlin Wood
[00:04:01] is married with three kids three boys one in high school a couple of younger ones
[00:04:06] and lives in upstate New York Caitlin served as lead pastor of United Church of Coho's for seven years
[00:04:13] they're director of some ministry things before that and now you have this really cool role Caitlin
[00:04:18] you're working as director of church health at the national level for eco and for those who don't
[00:04:23] know eco is short for a covenant order of evangelical Presbyterians so they just rolls right off the
[00:04:28] right off the tongue it's right off the tongue it just so memorable the whole name also is an
[00:04:33] ECO I don't entirely understand how that all happened but yes I don't know either we weren't there and
[00:04:38] if we had been a covenant order of evangelical whatever it's fine I'm pretty sure we could have
[00:04:44] we could have solved the problem differently Caitlin anyway we're really glad to have you on
[00:04:48] and thanks for coming back on the reclaim later absolutely thanks for having me now we were talking
[00:04:54] before we hit record that actually the pandemic may be Caitlin's fault because the last episode
[00:05:01] that we had before the pandemic was with Caitlin so I don't know I don't know if there's you know Jason
[00:05:08] what would I get that kind of there's clearly a correlation but might not not be the first one
[00:05:13] to believe me presented well it was funny because the thing that just sticks out in my head about
[00:05:19] that interview is we were literally talking off camera like yeah I don't know like I think things
[00:05:24] are like gonna be shutting down and I think we're gonna be closed on Sunday like it was like that
[00:05:29] kind of conversation in relation what in the world is going on and now my goodness director of
[00:05:36] church health I mean no pressure or anything yeah so that's not a medical term I don't think but
[00:05:42] anyway maybe it should should include something of that in there no it's a very big big and somewhat
[00:05:47] ambiguous title but it's funny it's like I was thinking I don't know if you ever do this where you think
[00:05:54] like how short four years feels but then also how much has happened in four years and it feels
[00:06:01] like maybe a lifetime you know so yeah thinking about the fact that the last time we talked was
[00:06:07] was right before the world shut down is um it's really kind of messing with me
[00:06:12] at the moment it's a lot that's gone on since then yeah yeah the week before I mean even in the
[00:06:20] weeks before we had just what we're talking about was I had we had just come out of this like
[00:06:24] transformation process with um eco's like cohort and I had all this anticipation and we had all
[00:06:32] this momentum and we had seen so much growth and everything was just like moving the way everything
[00:06:38] you would want to happen and man there was so much grief to profit at the church 20 I
[00:06:45] hope really like 21 by the time I was like oh this is what grief feels like because all of that
[00:06:51] momentum would last in all so much but at the same time I always say like if we had not gone through
[00:06:58] the transmission cohort I'm not sure our church would have survived um through that shutdown
[00:07:04] process because there was something about like just the clarity and the about our mission and who
[00:07:10] was doing what it and it was like we knew exactly what we needed to do um and our church really
[00:07:17] really thrived through it so yeah yeah what you guys see that think about it was what you needed
[00:07:23] but in a way that you never expected or something never never we were like oh if we keep growing
[00:07:28] like 20 more people consistently we're gonna have to start thinking about how like planning for
[00:07:32] a second service and we're gonna have to start thinking about hiring a second person and like
[00:07:38] no then it was that we also admittedly had never live streamed a service like real
[00:07:46] well in the first week with my cell phone on a um music stand yes so you know
[00:07:52] yes pro level that's pro level inside I love it a lot of things happened in 2020 and apparently
[00:07:58] it was all uh triggered by me being on this time well I think it's so fine I mean that's
[00:08:05] on talking shop with leaders that are leading in the trenches and I think all of us were kind of
[00:08:09] looking at 2020 and Jason and I kid around about this but like 2020 vision I mean you couldn't get
[00:08:14] a more perfect way to like launch new things and all that and it was like actually no you're gonna
[00:08:20] have to unlearn everything and relearn a whole bunch of new things that you never really needed
[00:08:25] but in some ways it clarified and simplified and did some other things that I think will service
[00:08:30] well going forward including giving us this deep sense of our need for human connection and
[00:08:36] and sort of this idea of like yes be online but you need to be incarnational and with real people too
[00:08:42] and so oh yeah and also two like so my kids are they're um 9 12 and 14 and so
[00:08:50] that you know we're cut four years ago they were all elementary school and um
[00:08:56] and I just they they said to me the other day because I said guys this was like the last normal week
[00:09:02] before our lives changed four years ago and my oldest was like I miss quarantine
[00:09:10] and I was like I'm glad you think of it finally because I'm not sure most people do like I don't
[00:09:16] know necessarily but but it did teach us right like it was like our schedule shut down and things
[00:09:21] just changed so yeah it's um I will also say that like from a leadership perspective it was really
[00:09:30] uh a very difficult reason of learning for me because one all of like my rhythms that I had
[00:09:37] and structures that I had created for myself as a leader and as a disciple just fell apart like
[00:09:44] you don't when they're when the schedules and the rhythms and all of that are gone it was like
[00:09:50] I didn't know how to maintain a lot of that and then the other thing that I found was like when
[00:09:57] my house was also my work um I just worked all that I just felt like I should be working all the time
[00:10:02] and so it was really easy to just like work work work work work and then be like wait a second
[00:10:08] I just stopped to make dinner and then I'm going back to something and I'm feeling guilty all the
[00:10:12] time when I'm not working and so it was really it was a it was um uh definitely a period where I was
[00:10:18] like oh I'm not as healthy as I thought I was because when when all of the external stuff is taken away
[00:10:25] um I'm actually struggling to to maintain a lot more than I thought I I would so yeah yeah
[00:10:31] and I mean we all I think we all learned a lot about ourselves and I certainly had had some real
[00:10:39] low moments and just sort of realizing how I'm wired and what's happening to me as I'm not engaging
[00:10:45] with people and yeah what's happening to my leadership um all of that I mean was crazy so now okay
[00:10:51] four years later you are in this role in talking revitalization in eco which I think now um I'm not
[00:10:59] part of eco but my favorite thing about eco like you know that yeah that I love is that revitalization
[00:11:07] and coaching and consulting is all baked in to the denomination I think that is an incredibly
[00:11:13] good idea and you you have your hands on that stuff so what's the latest on what you are seeing
[00:11:21] for the churches that you're serving I know you're new in the role so you're probably just
[00:11:24] getting your feet wet in some ways but what are you seeing so far yeah I've been full time since
[00:11:30] September so as of now that's what six months or so um I struggle with this a little bit and part
[00:11:40] of it and uh is my my dissertation work that I'm defending hopefully um two weeks um hopefully uh
[00:11:50] it's really about this idea of like the role of the pastor in leading more holistic revitalization
[00:12:01] part of that is my own experience leading revitalization and some of what it did to me and how I
[00:12:10] like kind of unpacked and discovered who I was and how I was wired to lead and but also some of
[00:12:16] that like what we were just talking about like the like being disengaged from people and not having
[00:12:21] that connection and the way that that that pastoring revitalization can be so lonely right
[00:12:28] and it can be so isolating and um part of my like uh dissertation research was talking to people
[00:12:36] who have been through the various transformation cohort than ECO so that was my research
[00:12:41] wool was talking to your pastor to a blood revitalization and one of the themes that kept coming up
[00:12:47] that I thought was so interesting was um pastors talking about no one really prepared me for the
[00:12:54] level of hurt and disappointment over people leaving or people um did not even disagreeing but
[00:13:02] like waging a war against decisions I made or things like that and just that that human
[00:13:08] level of leadership that um that I think we miss a lot and that I think it's miss a lot because
[00:13:15] of the way that when you talk about church health can't talk about church health without talking
[00:13:19] about church growth right like they're kind of like cousin movements in the church world and I think
[00:13:26] a lot of it made pastors into leaders which is great but it left the the pastoring side uh uh
[00:13:35] a little bit right it like left that um that human element turned them into CEOs and there's
[00:13:42] there's a need for that but there's also this need to see pastors as humans and as people with souls
[00:13:50] and so what do they mean? That's right. I'm getting out of balance here.
[00:13:56] So the thing I'm seeing is just that like pastors need to be need to be cared for and nurtured
[00:14:01] and they need to be whole and transformed um we can't just pile them with a bunch of strategies
[00:14:08] um we can talk about vision and all of that until the count is them all that's great. We need vision
[00:14:15] we need strategy we need programs but more than that we need pastors who themselves are transformed
[00:14:22] and transforming um and that I think is really where my heart is right now and so um you know
[00:14:30] we're starting this new thing in a couple of weeks of the compass retreats where we're we're
[00:14:35] working with pastors who are mid-career so like more than five years in and just think like let's
[00:14:41] pause and think about what does it look like for you to finish well in ministry? Like with your
[00:14:46] family intact, your marriage intact, your faith intact, your integrity intact all of that what does
[00:14:53] that look like um and how do we help you get there um because so often we're just going so I don't
[00:15:01] know if that's really an answer to like what am I seeing every vitalization because it's really
[00:15:05] it's got I feel like we it has to start with pastors especially after the last four years they've
[00:15:09] been through. I think what you're saying there's something in there that's like healthy churches are
[00:15:14] are led by healthy pastors or something. Right and I think what was surprising to me or maybe
[00:15:20] shouldn't have been that Jason and I've talked a lot about this and I think Caitlin you had some
[00:15:24] of this experience in your leading change uh in when you became the lead pastor and that if you
[00:15:30] lead well you're going to have the scars to prove it like it is going to come with its lumps and
[00:15:35] lumps and bruises unfair criticism some of itself inflicted suffering and different kinds of things
[00:15:40] but that's I think the little bit of the surprise of leading change is the cost the personal cost
[00:15:46] to the pastor if you're going to do that well and uh I remember Jim made who was a friend of ours
[00:15:51] on the podcast our second I think ever guessed Jason whatever he was you was that so too or whatever
[00:15:57] and he said yeah if you lead well you will have the scars to prove it the question is how can you stay
[00:16:02] healthy as you lead something of that and yeah it seems seems like that's the right right line of
[00:16:08] thinking for us. Yeah and I'll I'll like I'll totally butcher who expires because I'm terrible at
[00:16:13] remembering names but um one of the leadership guys has leadership is just learning to disappoint
[00:16:18] and keep blood a rate that they can accept right like that's like that's leadership and that's
[00:16:24] been really that that was a really hard for me especially because if you remember I took over
[00:16:30] pastoring in a church that I grew up in um and so I had a lot of lifelong friends in that area
[00:16:38] and in that church and it was really strange to watch how um my moving into that
[00:16:47] after all role changed our relationships and changed friendships and so even though I was someone
[00:16:54] with a very big village a big support system it was still one of the loneliness experiences that
[00:17:01] I can recall and um I was so grateful in the end because uh Paul Borden who was our consultant came
[00:17:09] in and my husband happened to be our worship leader when I when we started and he fired him I always
[00:17:14] joke we were fired by Paul Borden he said you need to stay on worship team but you cannot be on staff
[00:17:19] any longer because Caitlin needs someone at home who is not not at all connected to like what's
[00:17:26] happening in meetings and boardrooms and now it's such a gift to have like a really healthy marriage
[00:17:32] and home base and connection at that point because I don't know what I would have done um it was a
[00:17:37] tough it was a tough season as much as like we saw great things happening in Gohoes um it's a really
[00:17:44] emotional really a very difficult season and then to see the statistics coming out from like
[00:17:51] Barna and other places saying pastors are just like they're tired they're worn out they're considering
[00:17:55] leaving they're exhausted um and now if every the sort of the basis of my dissertation is like
[00:18:03] if almost every church is in decline right across America mainline evangelical churches almost all
[00:18:10] of them are in decline the biggest churches keep getting bigger but most of them are are
[00:18:15] staying the same or shrinking then every pastor needs to be a revitalization pastor
[00:18:20] so how do you prepare all of these pastors when they're already exhausted and maybe they don't
[00:18:26] even have the wiring for it or they're not sure what does it look like what does the pastoral role
[00:18:31] look like when every church needs to be revitalized yeah do you think do you think it's to do with
[00:18:41] what we think it i think there's an idea of like what we think it takes to be a leader that does
[00:18:45] revitalization is almost so daunting that or we feel like either we don't have this stomach for
[00:18:53] or we don't have the giftedness we don't know where to start there's a million targets we could shoot at
[00:18:59] i mean do you think it's part of the it's a model problem that we've inherited you know sort
[00:19:06] of the traditional apes de fusions for apostles prophets evangelist shepherds teachers
[00:19:13] there are certainly some good things about that model but you know again it feels like um
[00:19:18] i don't know it feels like we sort of locked off shepherds and teachers yeah it feels like
[00:19:23] and i was such a great such a great perspective because i really the way i see it there are two
[00:19:29] schools of thought that are in competition and and what i really want is is to create without being
[00:19:35] like cheesy like a third way right there's a third way forward in the church and so i see what
[00:19:41] i see is you have these people who are like we need the apostles probably a pothole teachers right but
[00:19:49] like um those are the uh and evangelists and those are sort of like the the church growth
[00:19:55] people who are like we need to equip you we need to teach you these strategies and it's like copy paste
[00:20:01] copy paste copy paste now i love a lot of my experience with the cohort could not have been better
[00:20:09] right but i know a lot of people for whom it was not a great experience it just depended on their
[00:20:14] context but a lot of that was like i'm saying this doesn't work where i'm from like i can't do
[00:20:21] what you're telling me to do in my context because you can't just like cut this and paste it here
[00:20:28] so there's this like there's this one strategy that is all leadership but then i feel like there's
[00:20:33] this other school of thought that came out and it really pushes back at the church growth movement
[00:20:41] and i i love Eugene Peterson like i wish that i was wired like him i have never been a
[00:20:50] contemplative quiet human being in my entire life right like my mom sent me to kindergarten when
[00:20:57] i was four because she just couldn't handle me being home talking anymore so like i was a year
[00:21:04] younger than everyone else in school just because i've been talking my entire life okay so i've
[00:21:08] never been a contemplative i've always wished i was like the quiet brooding one in the corner
[00:21:13] i love Eugene Peterson but i really feel like it's unfair because i think he creates this other like
[00:21:20] i want to speak for the shepherd teacher kind of movement of Eugene Peterson and some ways
[00:21:27] brutally barren and and these other like let's get back to the heart of pasturing and shepherding
[00:21:34] and i agree but they sort of say well all that other stuff all that leadership stuff that turns
[00:21:40] pastures into managers and they're not their shopkeepers is what Eugene Peterson called it
[00:21:45] and i'm like i just don't see when i look at the book of acts i'm like these are people who were
[00:21:52] strategic these are people who were leaders they were people who in act six when people are complaining
[00:21:58] about food distribution they don't say like let's pray about it and they also don't say i'll just
[00:22:03] do it myself like there are people who are self-aware enough to go i know what my gifts are
[00:22:08] and that's not it so let's find some other people and we'll create a system right people who create
[00:22:13] systems are leaders they're there's strategic visionaries so to me i just see i just see that we need both
[00:22:21] and and that's probably the way forward and so how do we do that at a personal level but then my
[00:22:27] job now is how do we each that at a denominational level and what does that look like and i i mean
[00:22:34] we're still in process so we're starting with pastures and we're launching i think it'll be announced
[00:22:39] by the time it comes out but we're launching a new cohort this fall that'll be a little bit more
[00:22:46] segmented so we're hoping to have two different groups of churches they're a little bit more segmented
[00:22:51] by context and this will be a very different approach to church transformation than the previous cohorts
[00:23:01] that's really cool i feel like we to we spend a lot of time trying to convince maybe not in
[00:23:06] the non-denominational world so much but denominational land that we needed more leaders in the church
[00:23:11] and leader types and and we needed to bring in more systems thinking and and all of that stuff and
[00:23:17] we needed that and i feel like sometimes we we maybe the pendulum went too far or something i hear
[00:23:23] kind of hear a little bit of that what you're saying is without a balance between sort of shepherd
[00:23:29] teacher and the rest of it we're gonna we're gonna end up maybe somewhere where we don't want to be
[00:23:33] and so i'm i'm a i'm a aim down the middle kind of i'm with you Caitlin i think there is a third way
[00:23:38] and we the three of us right here the geniuses that will figure it out
[00:23:42] and they'll put benefit from it right these the geniuses are very good dissertation we're gonna
[00:23:46] yeah you're gonna ride hard co-tails you kidding me no so i'll soft i'll soft launch this or maybe
[00:23:52] it's a hard launch but though the title of my dissertation which i'm like Dana who is the executive
[00:24:00] our of our nomination he uh he's one of my outside readers and he's like you have to write a book
[00:24:04] with this title where else i'm going to but it's uh it's the sacred CEO right so it's about how do we
[00:24:13] build a new framework for pastoral leadership what is a new model of pastoral leadership that is
[00:24:20] we we are serving in its time when churches are into decline when people have tons of options for
[00:24:27] where to go when they can go where where they can find community i mean my kids play sports which
[00:24:33] i know is like the the enemy of the church half the time but like those people find their community
[00:24:40] on the sidelines they find purpose for their kids on the sidelines like so when when when we live in a
[00:24:47] time where people really they don't need to go to church for very much um we have to have leadership
[00:24:54] to think about what is our purpose what is our vision how are we gonna get where we're going
[00:25:00] we know that we need to spread the gospel how do we do that right now that's a leadership problem
[00:25:05] um but then we also are serving in a time where people are more anxious more disconnected
[00:25:11] like people are overwhelmed we're divided we're worried about our future we're like you know
[00:25:17] barely people are living paycheck to paycheck we're probably facing more political up people
[00:25:22] we need shepherding pastors who can tend to people's souls so like i just don't see a way forward
[00:25:29] i don't see a way to revitalize a church that is all transformation and spiritual formation
[00:25:35] or all strategy and i think that worked in the 90s and the early 2000s that like all strategy let's
[00:25:41] build a show a instructional model but i just don't see that being a way forward from here so there's
[00:25:48] something of a need to adapt again and learn from this last 20 years before the pandemic yeah
[00:25:55] different i remember uh remember Gordon Graham Jason are yeah so sweetly awesome
[00:26:00] awesome guy uh professor of philosophy and political and religious philosophy and different stuff but
[00:26:06] um i remember at graduation you pulled me aside and i'm definitely kind of like uk and i'm like
[00:26:11] leader type i love people let's go this build some things and do some strategy sessions and
[00:26:16] i have probably as many leadership books as i have theology don't tell anybody
[00:26:21] but um i love that stuff and he pulled me aside and he said uh he felt like for me one of the
[00:26:28] dangers is that it would become a job it would become a shah and he said um how he said so don't
[00:26:33] let it become that and he comes out of the anglican tradition in which they're also trained in
[00:26:37] the care of their own soul through daily disciplines and different kinds of things something i didn't
[00:26:41] get any leadership training and seminary and we didn't really get anything about how to take care
[00:26:46] ourselves maybe how to take care of others but not so much ourselves and so yeah maybe that's
[00:26:50] another missing piece that we go how do we teach our pastors how to cultivate their own life
[00:26:57] with the lord and and grow in that relationship and yeah i think one of the when i was in the midst
[00:27:03] of the revitalization effort i read um a quote from Ruth helle barton that just threw me for like an
[00:27:12] absolute loop because she said and i'm paraphrasing but it was something like um uh the best thing that
[00:27:20] you can bring to any organization you lead is your own transforming self and she says like uh
[00:27:28] the parts of you that are transformed will make its way into the DNA of your organization
[00:27:34] but the unhealthy parts of you that are like deformed like those will also make their way into your
[00:27:40] organization and not i think this is where and i struggle with this even in my dissertation is like
[00:27:48] we don't want to create this pastor at the center spoke um pastor as the hero model
[00:27:55] but the reality is that every bit of research that's done shows that like the pastor
[00:28:02] is really really central to the the success and health of a church right like you it's almost
[00:28:08] impossible to have a healthy growing church without a healthy growing pastor um or a long term right
[00:28:13] sustainable healthy successful um and so i think that was really that that was really um
[00:28:23] that was really a turning point for me to go oh i'm like why do we need these people somewhere that
[00:28:30] i myself am not going every single day right um and so i'm trying to get them to grow a church
[00:28:38] which is important right and i make i want to make this really clear i don't think church growth
[00:28:43] is a derby word i don't think it's unspearial i think when Jesus leaves in acts one eight he says go
[00:28:50] and grow the church and then everywhere through acts it says and the church grew like that's important
[00:28:56] we're supposed to do that but i don't think it's a dirty word but i do think like that can't be the
[00:29:02] goal is growing the church right so i just think um i i was calling people to a mission to grow a church
[00:29:11] rather than calling people to say like look at what god is doing in my life and how i've been transformed
[00:29:19] can i show you where i've been can i show you how i've gotten where i am can i show you what a
[00:29:24] difference it's made and so it's it really shifted the way that i was leading i was at some point in
[00:29:31] like 21 or 21 or so um that i was like oh okay i have to i really have to start leading these people
[00:29:39] into not just like biblical knowledge not just we're growing a church and we're a family and
[00:29:44] we're community but like this makes a difference in your life and it makes a difference in your
[00:29:50] family's life and all of that right so it just for me i had to start with me
[00:29:55] and i had to learn that i was inviting people into something bigger than just growing a church
[00:30:00] yeah we do and i think too like i want to hear a little bit about the resources that eco offers
[00:30:06] and and kind of what you're doing i know that retreat that compass retreat coming up but also
[00:30:12] it seems like i mean the longer that i've done consulting with churches the more i have fallen
[00:30:18] in love with process because i feel like that's that's the equalizer um you don't have to be the
[00:30:24] most gifted pastor or you don't have to be the the most you know the best leader the best but if
[00:30:30] you have a really healthy process you can help your church move forward and so i mean does that kind
[00:30:37] of resonate with you and and what you've seen in church revitalization and then maybe as a as a bridge
[00:30:42] to talking about what eco offers churches yeah i think it's prick or shell says like you're
[00:30:51] while he's probably not the first one who says that i'm sure other people said it first but he
[00:30:54] says like your system is perfectly designed to get the results you're getting right so yeah processes
[00:31:01] it i think it's what i say the people is it's less about creating programs everybody wants a program
[00:31:11] right whether it's through discipleship or leadership or whatever everybody wants like a six-week
[00:31:16] program to fix the problem and i get it because they're measurable they're easy to duplicate
[00:31:22] whatever um but for me it's less about implementing programs and it's more about how do i help you
[00:31:30] like cultivate the environment for these things how do we create environments for transformation
[00:31:37] how do you create environments for discipleship how do you free to environment where leaders are
[00:31:42] going to be developed so it's less because again those the actual system the actual program or what
[00:31:50] you're going to teach or what you're going to say or how you're going to do it that's going to be
[00:31:54] different based on the size of your church and the location and the values and all of that right
[00:31:59] the language is going to change and and where i am in new york it's probably similar to where you
[00:32:03] guys are or i don't know if you're both there but like where you are at least jesse it's pretty
[00:32:06] post-Christian but probably a very different approach than would be had in texas or okwama
[00:32:12] um so for me it's less about here's the exact way that you should do this and and more about how
[00:32:20] do we prepare the soil and how do we make sure that the roots are good before we can
[00:32:27] talk about here are some resources that might help you um and so for us it's really that's what
[00:32:33] i'm trying to focus on less about results um less about here's here's a way to grow your church in
[00:32:39] 100 days um and more about how can we help you create systems and environments where these things
[00:32:47] could happen yeah well and the funny thing about that is that if you're working together with your
[00:32:52] church going in a direction together even if you don't go where you hoped you would go
[00:32:58] you still grow like crazy in the process and your transformed as a congregation because you
[00:33:05] tried this thing together so even if it if you don't get the results at all it still does something to
[00:33:11] you which is awesome yeah well and this is what i think i i don't know if i said this
[00:33:17] yet but like i when i think about healthy and i talk about church growth growth is a good thing
[00:33:22] i also think you can be healthy at any size um and i think i don't know if i told you this jethy
[00:33:27] like my my 14 year old is an athlete he is six but one and 165 pounds he's a William joker
[00:33:34] can feel like speed or belt first strength not speed right like he's just always been a big 10 um
[00:33:39] but he's like a really great athlete and one of the best friends is just barely five five
[00:33:47] and like just broke 120 um and he's much smaller but he's also a great athlete he's also super healthy
[00:33:55] and so for both of them learning how to how to live into their DNA and into their skills like
[00:34:01] the that first the smaller kid he's a lead off hitter he runs fast he steals leave I my son
[00:34:08] not stealing much you know when he steals like i'm like oh my god oh my god
[00:34:11] um so like he's just he's designed to be a cleaner better that's who he's who he's built to be
[00:34:18] so like health is not about size for me it's about are you living into your DNA and to those things
[00:34:23] that you're wired to do that's so encouraging because i think you know we have uh listeners
[00:34:28] of different church sizes and things and sometimes i think if you think well we're not the biggest
[00:34:33] church ever well you can be an incredibly healthy church i mean carl vaders always helps us
[00:34:37] think about yeah and how do we be really really healthy and in the version the best version that
[00:34:42] god is calling us to be of the church where we are and um we're out on a peninsula where i am and
[00:34:48] it's so our senior pastor before uh when i first started he's been retired for about 12 years but
[00:34:53] he's still always say we're only going to grow so big unless fish literally start coming to church
[00:34:58] you know everybody's environment is unique in what's reasonable in immunity versus an urban college
[00:35:06] setting versus you know where jason has a you know 15 million people are outside his door and
[00:35:11] there's a hundred new guests every sunday or whatever's going on like we all have so so be healthy
[00:35:17] be the right size that god is calling you to be it and do not and healthy things will grow and flourish
[00:35:23] absolutely this goes for pastors and churches right so pastors and this is the point of the
[00:35:30] compass retreat is like pastors need to know who they are what they're wired for we've seen pastors come
[00:35:36] into the the transformation cohort and go actually like the more i'm discovering about myself this
[00:35:43] i'm not i'm not gonna be able to do this and we're like great let's help you transition out and find
[00:35:48] a transformation pastor that come into this church and that to me is healthy like that's not failure
[00:35:52] that's health and so learning like for me i know what my gifts are and i also know what they're not so
[00:35:59] that meant building a team around me to make sure that i filled in those gaps so it doesn't mean
[00:36:04] becoming the church on the street or the pastor on the tv it means living into your DNA
[00:36:10] and living into your church's DNA whatever that looks like size wise and and actual image wise for sure
[00:36:18] yeah that's so good Caitlin and i don't know if you can point to anything specific we kind of
[00:36:22] tease a few things but if people want to follow up with you or learn more about the resources that
[00:36:27] are out there in eco or other ones that you know about what's what's the best way to get in touch
[00:36:32] with you or to connect with eco yeah so for me so all the resources we have in eco are housed
[00:36:39] in what we call flourish movement so it's flourish movement dot org i'm like a hundred
[00:36:44] that's what it's supposed to and you can always email me info at flourish movement dot org will go to me
[00:36:53] and but there's all sorts of things on there so we have like assessments that we've developed
[00:36:57] like a church health assessment but it's not based on numbers it's based on six metrics that are
[00:37:04] pulled from allen herches but forgotten ways so it's like knows it's unique identity
[00:37:10] requires risk-taking, mission-aliving the type of ship pathways leadership development
[00:37:15] those sorts of things um prepares to launch so it's it's measuring six sort of categories
[00:37:22] in church health and then we also have leadership assessments and tools to type of ship assessments
[00:37:29] for your full church to do or your leadership team and you can also find out more about like our
[00:37:34] coaching spiritual direction and cohorts that we have as well that's awesome and by the way
[00:37:40] i'm looking forward to sacred CEO that is maybe the cool part of your knowledge so you just
[00:37:45] sold a hundred thousand copies you gotta come back on here and unplug the book when it's done yeah my
[00:37:50] classmate made me get the um get one of the domain three more two years ago i did it i need to
[00:37:56] i thought a website and i was like i don't know i'm gonna finish this dissertation like this is like
[00:38:02] you could build a whole brand around that thing katlyn that's that's really well that's gonna be good
[00:38:07] i really i'm really excited for it and uh hopefully a pass the two week
[00:38:12] then if you follow your dissertation yeah it's a little more
[00:38:17] the soft-cat it's like the soft-cat that i want you know um no one needs to call me doctor
[00:38:22] but i definitely want the soft-cat to graduate with that's all i want
[00:38:27] okay let it always fun talking shop we love talking leadership and people who
[00:38:31] love the local church and have been in the trenches you know there's a lot of our listeners that are
[00:38:36] grinding it out every week week and a week out and uh there's a sermon coming and there's a
[00:38:41] meeting to have and i can't deal with and all of that so yeah thanks for all the good work
[00:38:46] you're doing now kind of at the national level to think in terms of creating healthy churches
[00:38:50] and pastors and we're grateful for that awesome thanks so much for having me guys
[00:38:56] Jason it's really fun to have katlyn on and uh just enjoy getting to talk shop with somebody's
[00:39:01] passionate about leadership being healthy in leadership and then obviously cares about
[00:39:06] the local church and has experienced leading in the trenches as so many of our pastors and listeners
[00:39:11] have or maybe you're in the grind of it right now so i hope that uh katlyn and what she shared was
[00:39:17] an encouragement to you and and right at the end we are talking about the the flourish movement
[00:39:21] and the resources available there and i just wanted to make a note those are available for
[00:39:26] for anybody that wants to go and look at those they're not just eco-specific so
[00:39:30] the really the goal uh they're they were created to be a resource for eco churches but with the
[00:39:36] greater church in mind and so if if any of that would be of use to you it can go check out the
[00:39:41] flourish movement uh stuff and uh you can find that right online so uh yeah so Jason you can
[00:39:46] you can go right there right now find find those resources if you know oh that's awesome i mean
[00:39:50] truly i i love when churches and denominations do that where it's not sort of like well you know
[00:39:56] you have to have the past code or whatever be part of the of the crowd but it's really just trying
[00:40:01] to help the church and i i love that spirit and want to encourage everybody to check that out because
[00:40:07] i mean listen how i i feel like the real secret to church revitalization is just an openness
[00:40:14] to learn more and not to just feel like we have it all figured out and it's true with everything um
[00:40:20] and i think what happens at least what i've seen with pastors and i have to fight hard against
[00:40:26] in myself is after you've been a place for a few years you sort of get set in the way you do things
[00:40:32] and you stop being willing to learn you're like well no this is my way this is my way that i preach
[00:40:37] and teach and lead and all this stuff and you tend to sort of fossilize around whatever now becomes
[00:40:43] your comfort zone and and you really miss out on not just your own personal growth but
[00:40:50] being a better leader for the sake of the kingdom that's right yeah and that's that's the thing is uh
[00:40:56] i think it's reassuring to know that we're all in process right when we don't ever really truly
[00:41:01] arrive in leadership you just get to new seasons and new challenges and different kinds of things
[00:41:05] but there's sort of this cumulative knowledge base that you develop and grow over time that can
[00:41:10] be applied and so anything we can find that can be can help us that that's useful just one more
[00:41:16] tool and a tool about or whatever it is and so uh yeah you can check out fliers movement.org i think
[00:41:21] there's free resources i know there's some paid resources for coaching and other kinds of things too so
[00:41:26] if that's abuse to you and then there's guys like Jason Jason does this too he goes and hangs
[00:41:31] out with churches and talks to you about what's working what's not thinks about change process and
[00:41:36] how to how to do that well in the life of the church and there's a lot available if you're willing
[00:41:42] to to reach out and invest in something and i think that's the main thing is yeah uh let's not get
[00:41:49] static and get stuck let's let's keep moving and uh keep working on it.
[00:41:55] Hey man Jesse all right everyone hey thanks so much for listening and remember ministry is hard
[00:42:00] it's so much better when we do it together