[00:00:00] If you have a problem focusing, maybe you like to multitask. Maybe you're in a meeting
[00:00:06] with somebody and you're looking at your phone. We have to figure out how to give people
[00:00:11] make them feel like they have our undivided attention.
[00:00:15] Welcome to episode 335. If another contentious political cycle tells us anything, it's that
[00:00:20] in our culture we don't really listen. In fact, we often talk past each other to decide
[00:00:25] what we'll say next. But rediscovering the art of listening is crucial for your leadership.
[00:00:31] Strategies to improve your skills, that's today, The Reclaimed Leader.
[00:00:40] Hey everyone, welcome to episode 335 of The Reclaimed Leader. I'm Jason Tucker. As always
[00:00:45] with Jesse Skiffington, how's it going Jesse?
[00:00:49] Oh, I'm sorry Jason, were you saying something I wasn't with?
[00:00:53] I love it. You're always a master at teeing up the topic.
[00:00:57] Come on, let's go. We're talking about listening today. So I thought why not?
[00:01:01] But yeah man, it's so good to be together, talking shop, talking leadership and all month
[00:01:06] we're just kind of stewing in, leadership topics. And of course that's kind of at the heartbeat
[00:01:11] of our podcast is sometimes practical strategic things in the life of the church other times
[00:01:16] it's kind of taken a look at ourselves and how are we doing as leaders and are there
[00:01:20] things we need to kind of bring back or emphasize again or kind of focus on in our leadership.
[00:01:27] And I think there's things that drift in our leadership as leaders, we get complacent
[00:01:32] or we forget about some just basic things that we need to be doing but leadership is long
[00:01:38] and an exhausting journey. So sometimes those things go missing.
[00:01:42] So today we're talking leadership again and particularly we're going to talk about listening.
[00:01:46] So tell us a little bit about that and where we're going.
[00:01:49] Well, I don't know if you've noticed Jesse but we are right in the middle of what is becoming
[00:01:55] an increasingly contentious as it always is political cycle in this country which I know
[00:02:02] I don't think any of us with no passers that I know are looking forward to it.
[00:02:06] I'm sure there's something that are and that's their lane and everything.
[00:02:09] Some people love picking a fight in. Oh my gosh, I just the worst.
[00:02:14] And part of the reason why it's tough is that our culture just doesn't listen to one another.
[00:02:21] I think politics, social media, denominations, we're all talking past each other
[00:02:30] and it's like we're thinking about what we're going to say in rebuttal without actually listening
[00:02:35] to the point that's being made. I was thinking about the state of the union address this year
[00:02:40] and I just always laugh no matter which parties making the address.
[00:02:44] At the choreographs standing and sitting like it's predetermined when we're going to stand in solidarity
[00:02:51] or sit in conflict or in disagreement.
[00:02:54] Now, what is that show? Nobody's listening to anybody.
[00:02:58] And this is actually a problem not just in politics but this is a problem that often happens in leadership.
[00:03:08] We make up our minds, we're going to do the thing, we're going to do the strategy,
[00:03:11] we're going to work on that ministry area and then we sort of stop listening
[00:03:16] to the people around us or even to the people that we're trying to serve
[00:03:20] because we have it in our heads. It's going to be a certain way.
[00:03:24] And eventually, you know, if you don't start listening as a leader,
[00:03:27] if you don't engage in listening as a leader, you run the risk of having a negative impact on absolutely everything.
[00:03:34] Your forward progress is going to come to a screeching halt
[00:03:37] or you're never going to get started if people think that you don't care what they have to say.
[00:03:43] Yeah, that's so true. I think
[00:03:46] you can have strong convictions and still be a good listener.
[00:03:51] Like, I think that's what's missing. It's like it's not that you shouldn't have opinions anymore
[00:03:55] or applaud a certain perspective or champion it
[00:03:58] but if you can't stop and listen and understand something of all the various dynamics
[00:04:03] that are at play in the situation, you just, I don't know,
[00:04:06] you kind of cut off your nose despite your face.
[00:04:08] You're taking away the opportunity to learn new information
[00:04:12] that's going to inform your ability to lead and influence in even better ways.
[00:04:16] So listening is going to be so important
[00:04:18] and especially in this next season as we come along here,
[00:04:24] like, ooh, maybe it's time for to keep our mouths shut and just kind of listen.
[00:04:28] I don't know.
[00:04:30] It's the Lord gave you two years in one mouth.
[00:04:33] That's right.
[00:04:34] But truly listening is so important.
[00:04:36] Now, when I think about listening,
[00:04:38] I think about in my youth ministry days,
[00:04:41] I took a group of kids to Six Flags theme park
[00:04:44] and we were there
[00:04:46] and before we get out of the van,
[00:04:49] you know, I'm trying to give instructions on what the kids are supposed to do.
[00:04:52] We're supposed to meet at a certain time at the fountain in the middle
[00:04:56] so that we can just check in,
[00:04:58] make sure everyone's okay and have lunch together.
[00:05:00] And we let the kids go,
[00:05:03] they meet it like take off, you know, running as fast as I can.
[00:05:06] We had no idea where everybody went.
[00:05:08] It was just terribly executed.
[00:05:10] But I mean, the one order I had was you got to be at the fountain at 12 o'clock.
[00:05:15] And there was this group of kids that was not there at 12 o'clock.
[00:05:19] They were not there at 12 o'clock.
[00:05:21] They were not there at 12, 10.
[00:05:23] They were not there at 12, 15.
[00:05:25] And I'm getting increasingly angry.
[00:05:28] Right.
[00:05:29] And because I'm waiting for them and that we all end up having lunch,
[00:05:32] I send the rest of the kids off to go enjoy the rest of the day
[00:05:35] until we check in again.
[00:05:37] And this group of guys who I love by the way,
[00:05:39] I love this group of guys.
[00:05:41] They still weren't back and it was like 12, 30.
[00:05:44] And they come back and you know,
[00:05:47] you know, they're all in between their legs.
[00:05:49] And I'm reading them the riot act about you know how they.
[00:05:52] And the one kid tries to tell me something and I'm just like.
[00:05:57] Get out of here with that, you know,
[00:05:59] you have a watch.
[00:06:00] You have a phone.
[00:06:01] You know what time it was.
[00:06:03] And this other kid who usually isn't.
[00:06:06] Who's usually very compliant.
[00:06:09] Is just sitting there quiet.
[00:06:12] And I ask him,
[00:06:14] What's, is there a story, cheerer?
[00:06:16] Like what's going on and he said this to me
[00:06:19] and I never forgot it.
[00:06:19] He said, why you're not gonna listen to me anyway?
[00:06:24] Ouch.
[00:06:25] Turns out the ride broke down and they were stuck on it.
[00:06:29] Jason, come on.
[00:06:30] I know, I know.
[00:06:32] But I never listened to them from the beginning
[00:06:35] and why you're not gonna listen to me anyway?
[00:06:39] Oh man that was like a knife.
[00:06:40] I apologize those boys so much.
[00:06:43] And listen, of course I didn't mean it
[00:06:46] but this sort of thing happens all the time
[00:06:49] especially if you're not intentional about it.
[00:06:52] Is we accidentally create environments
[00:06:58] or people feel like well why bother?
[00:07:00] You're not gonna listen to me anyway.
[00:07:02] And that's the absolute last thing
[00:07:04] and that's like the worst thing as a leader
[00:07:06] when communication gets to that point.
[00:07:08] So active listening, listening is an art
[00:07:11] that must be rediscovered in leadership
[00:07:14] if you hope to go where you're hoping to go.
[00:07:16] Yeah and I think you can go into a conversation
[00:07:19] with someone, with some leadership hunches right?
[00:07:21] I think this is where the conversation's gonna go
[00:07:24] or I think I have a good sense
[00:07:26] of what the outcome needs to be or whatever
[00:07:29] but you can disarm so much strife conflict
[00:07:33] and things by going in it with a questions based approach.
[00:07:37] Just I'm curious, I wanna listen,
[00:07:39] I wanna understand your perspective
[00:07:41] and you're gonna bring somebody alongside
[00:07:44] rather than go bumping up against.
[00:07:46] And so I like this idea of active listening
[00:07:49] and trying to understand what someone else is saying
[00:07:53] before you react, hopefully you can be more responsive
[00:07:57] than reactive and a lot of times that's gonna go a long way
[00:08:00] just to help the relationship be healthier,
[00:08:03] probably even move you in the direction
[00:08:05] of working together towards a solution
[00:08:07] if it's a problem that needs to be addressed or something.
[00:08:08] So active listening goes a long way.
[00:08:10] It's course, a lot of us, if you're a pastor out there
[00:08:13] we got trained how to do this.
[00:08:14] Of course back in the seminary days, reflective listening
[00:08:17] and all that and we kinda be all admitted.
[00:08:20] I kinda made fun of some of that stuff
[00:08:21] a little bit along the way cause it's so,
[00:08:23] come on really but it can be disarming
[00:08:26] and powerful when used well.
[00:08:28] And so I'm glad you started with that.
[00:08:30] So let's just drill down on active listening
[00:08:33] a little bit.
[00:08:34] What else are we talking about with that?
[00:08:36] Yeah, so we're gonna talk about three buckets today.
[00:08:39] The first is active listening and it's often said
[00:08:41] that people don't leave jobs, they leave bosses
[00:08:45] and usually you know whether you're talking about
[00:08:48] an employee a staff member or even someone in the congregation
[00:08:51] people leave when they feel like they're not being heard
[00:08:54] or that you're not listening to them
[00:08:56] or just people aren't listening to them.
[00:08:58] So active listening runs two ways.
[00:09:01] Let's start with the first.
[00:09:02] The first is it runs with the people around you.
[00:09:07] If you have a problem focusing,
[00:09:10] maybe you like to multitask.
[00:09:13] Maybe you're in a meeting with somebody
[00:09:15] and you're looking at your phone or you're,
[00:09:18] and maybe there's a good reason you are.
[00:09:21] But we have to figure out how to give people
[00:09:25] make them feel like they have our undivided attention
[00:09:29] so that whatever it is that they're saying
[00:09:30] we are dialed in.
[00:09:31] We're not half listening, we're not,
[00:09:33] I mean that's, think about whenever
[00:09:36] that's happened to you and how annoying it is.
[00:09:39] Or, and this is a big one for me
[00:09:42] when you're in conversation with somebody
[00:09:43] and the other person clearly they get a 3000 foot stair
[00:09:48] you know 1000 foot stair
[00:09:49] you know they're just like you lost them
[00:09:52] and they're off somewhere else.
[00:09:55] You gotta be able to focus and hear people
[00:09:58] when they're talking.
[00:09:59] I know that's a no brainer but I don't know
[00:10:01] then everybody would do it if it was no brainer.
[00:10:03] So, how do we make sure people are getting
[00:10:06] our undivided attention like giving verbal
[00:10:08] and nonverbal cues that we're listening
[00:10:11] because two things clarity is a goal in listening
[00:10:18] but also so it's care.
[00:10:19] You want people to feel like you cared enough
[00:10:22] to listen that they're not like the kid on the bench saying
[00:10:24] why you don't care what I have to say anyway, right?
[00:10:27] Yeah, exactly right.
[00:10:28] And I think we can set each other up for success with that.
[00:10:32] One of the things I've had to work with our team
[00:10:34] on here is if I'm in the middle of something
[00:10:37] like writing a sermon or I'm kind of wired in like that
[00:10:40] and I'm going in and somebody just has a quick question
[00:10:43] like they want to ask me something
[00:10:44] I'm like please don't do that to me.
[00:10:46] It's partly because my attention is gonna be divided
[00:10:51] and now my attention has to go from this to that.
[00:10:54] And so I think sometimes with our staff teams
[00:10:56] it's creating space for that active listening
[00:11:00] in the right moments
[00:11:02] and kind of setting expectations with your folks
[00:11:04] but I think really more than anything Jason
[00:11:07] it's a discipline that we need to develop as leaders
[00:11:10] and pay attention to.
[00:11:11] Am I present?
[00:11:12] Am I actually actively listening to this person
[00:11:16] or am I thinking about the next five things?
[00:11:19] It's hard.
[00:11:20] On Sunday morning honestly
[00:11:22] that is one of the hardest time to be an active listener
[00:11:25] because I'm thinking in terms of the other conversation
[00:11:28] I need to go have the class that's coming up
[00:11:30] the thing that we're doing.
[00:11:31] And so it takes, I think it is a discipline
[00:11:34] that we need to stop and go how am I doing
[00:11:37] with this really specific aspect of leadership
[00:11:40] active listening communicates value
[00:11:43] gives us clarity about what's going on
[00:11:45] and can I think prevent some of that relational heartburn
[00:11:49] that people might get when they sense
[00:11:51] that we're not taking them seriously or care about them.
[00:11:53] Yeah.
[00:11:54] Yeah and demonstrate make it a priority in the organization
[00:11:57] and there are things you could do
[00:11:58] like there are things that I do on Sunday morning
[00:12:00] if somebody needs to talk to me
[00:12:02] and they it needs to be a real conversation.
[00:12:04] I'll say this isn't a Sunday morning conversation
[00:12:07] so let's schedule some time
[00:12:09] so that we can talk about this properly
[00:12:11] because I'm running a million miles now or right now
[00:12:14] and even I tell them in fact send me an email
[00:12:18] to make sure that I don't forget
[00:12:19] that cause this means something to me
[00:12:22] and so what I discovered,
[00:12:24] people feel weird about that send me an email
[00:12:25] sounds like you don't care no it sounds like I do care
[00:12:28] I don't want to forget, I don't want to let this go
[00:12:30] and we really need to talk about it.
[00:12:32] I'm not gonna try to have this conversation
[00:12:33] with you on Sunday morning.
[00:12:35] Yeah.
[00:12:36] So that's kind of a practical way of addressing that.
[00:12:39] Yeah I think so.
[00:12:41] The other thing that I've tried to remember
[00:12:42] is it's they cultivate something of a curiosity
[00:12:46] and just try to ask questions
[00:12:48] where you're really probing beyond just the surfacing
[00:12:50] and I think that's another way to show genuine interest
[00:12:53] and then actually maybe become interested
[00:12:55] in the conversation too.
[00:12:57] It's a tough balancing act
[00:12:59] because as leaders we're a mile wide and an inch deep
[00:13:02] especially when we're in a group setting or something
[00:13:04] and we're maintaining all these relationships
[00:13:06] and all these conversations that are ongoing
[00:13:09] with all these people.
[00:13:09] So I think it is a challenge for us as leaders
[00:13:11] to be present and to really focus
[00:13:15] but it's so crucial to the way that people feel about us
[00:13:19] as leaders and experience us as leaders.
[00:13:21] So by-
[00:13:22] And if you want to go next level with the active listening piece
[00:13:26] and I think you mentioned this recently
[00:13:28] on one of our episodes, it's what would it look like
[00:13:30] too if you just sent up a follow-up email
[00:13:33] that reviewed what you talked about
[00:13:34] and thanking them and reminding them of any next steps.
[00:13:38] It's just the extra step of care to say
[00:13:41] hey I was listening, I care
[00:13:44] and just so that we're clear on our communication
[00:13:47] this is where as far as I'm seeing it
[00:13:49] that we left it in what we're doing next or not doing it.
[00:13:51] Yeah especially if it's a higher stakes kind of conversation
[00:13:53] if it's just a little friendly back and forth
[00:13:57] about something, maybe that follow-up isn't necessary
[00:13:59] but when it's something important
[00:14:01] I think it goes a long way to creating goodwill
[00:14:04] and shared understanding.
[00:14:06] And when you do something like a follow-up email
[00:14:08] if there's something that's not right in there
[00:14:10] and you say did I understand the situation correctly
[00:14:12] or I think I heard as saying is that right
[00:14:14] it kind of brings you, we're a team now
[00:14:16] working together to work on something
[00:14:18] and I think that's one thing I've learned in conflict
[00:14:21] or confrontational kinds of things is to go
[00:14:25] to kind of position the conversation
[00:14:28] not each of us on one side of the table
[00:14:30] but coming around to sitting on this side
[00:14:33] and kind of working like we're working
[00:14:35] on a math problem together.
[00:14:36] Yeah, thank you for making the time to be here.
[00:14:39] I know we can figure this thing out together
[00:14:41] so look can you help me understand the situation?
[00:14:44] Like there's some ways to disarm that
[00:14:46] and then really be active in that
[00:14:47] so I love it Jason.
[00:14:49] I think this is spot on reminder for us as leaders.
[00:14:53] Yeah, and then to remember active listening
[00:14:55] isn't just for the people around us
[00:14:57] it's actively listening to God.
[00:15:00] Are we giving God the focus
[00:15:02] that we need to be giving God or are we distracted?
[00:15:06] Are we cracking our Bible open
[00:15:08] only when we're doing sermon prep?
[00:15:10] Are we talking to God on the way we're praying
[00:15:12] that he'll inspire us to write something
[00:15:14] or to say something
[00:15:15] or are we really leaning into our relationship
[00:15:19] in a way that's focused
[00:15:20] and were really trying to listen to what God says?
[00:15:24] And I wish for pastors that was a no-brainer
[00:15:28] but we all just like everybody else
[00:15:30] we get distracted the tasks of Sunday to Sunday
[00:15:35] we can end up talking about God more than we talk to God.
[00:15:38] So actively listening to God is hugely important
[00:15:42] so I think cultivating that habit of actively listening
[00:15:46] runs vertically and horizontally
[00:15:48] and that's, I think the first thing
[00:15:50] that kind of gets us going
[00:15:52] when it comes to making sure
[00:15:53] that we're listening well as leaders.
[00:15:55] Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:55] Is there some things that you do
[00:15:57] to kind of push away the distractions
[00:16:01] if you're gonna spend time in prayer or scripture study?
[00:16:04] How do you do that so that you're not
[00:16:05] you are actively present in paying attention
[00:16:09] as you're reading scripture in prayer?
[00:16:12] So there's three things that I do
[00:16:14] and I don't have any sort of formulas
[00:16:16] just kind of what I'm feeling.
[00:16:18] Yeah.
[00:16:19] The first one is before I come into the office
[00:16:23] to go for a prayer walk or find some time
[00:16:28] before I do anything else in the day
[00:16:29] before I have a chance to get distracted.
[00:16:31] Yeah.
[00:16:32] I'll sort of pre-decide
[00:16:34] that I'm going to have this time with God.
[00:16:36] That's number one.
[00:16:37] That's not always possible
[00:16:38] because of whatever life kids all that stuff.
[00:16:41] So, but that's my favorite one.
[00:16:43] Then there's the short devotional help.
[00:16:49] So I use an app.
[00:16:51] It's called Praise You Go.
[00:16:52] It's actually done by a bunch of Jesuits.
[00:16:54] It's got music and Alexio D'Vina prayer exercises in it.
[00:16:58] They each take about 10 minutes.
[00:17:00] I'll pop that into my earbuds
[00:17:01] and sometimes I need that third party source to get me going.
[00:17:06] It's sort of, I need the prompt from someone else.
[00:17:10] And that helps me to get into that space.
[00:17:13] And then the third thing that I do is maybe I'll decide,
[00:17:18] hey, you know what?
[00:17:18] Maybe this week I want to spend a little time
[00:17:21] in a Bible study tool,
[00:17:24] even just if I want to read the Greek along with the English
[00:17:28] and just think about it in a little bit different way.
[00:17:31] Think about it maybe in a technical way
[00:17:33] that leads to a prayer time
[00:17:36] because those times for me usually lead to some insights.
[00:17:39] Like, oh, I didn't notice that this word was a big part
[00:17:43] of this thought in the same way.
[00:17:45] And then that leads to a sort of a different kind of prayer time.
[00:17:48] Each of these things does not take long.
[00:17:49] Each of these things maximum 15 minutes.
[00:17:52] And but those are kind of three things that I do
[00:17:56] and depending on what I'm feeling that day.
[00:17:58] Yeah, I think that's spot on
[00:18:00] and some of it's intentional like that.
[00:18:02] Sometimes for me it's accidental.
[00:18:03] That's how a five minute shower turns into a 20 minute shower.
[00:18:07] Like you're focused in it.
[00:18:10] So doing intentional things,
[00:18:11] but also capturing those moments of sort of just your heart
[00:18:16] and your mind, your thinking,
[00:18:18] your praying, your sort of talking to God
[00:18:19] and just sitting in those moments a little bit longer.
[00:18:22] And often I think that right now for most of us
[00:18:27] that our phone is probably the most likely contributor
[00:18:31] to distraction.
[00:18:32] It can be a great resource with an app or something
[00:18:34] if you're using it for that, but there's just,
[00:18:37] it's like potato chips.
[00:18:38] Man, if it's sitting close,
[00:18:39] so I often put that in another room and sit and read scripture
[00:18:44] and I often pull out a yellow note pad
[00:18:46] rather than my computer or something else
[00:18:49] because it just, I don't know,
[00:18:51] there's something I'm able to breathe
[00:18:52] and focus a little more when it's almost out of sight
[00:18:55] out of mind and needs to be away from me.
[00:18:57] So I think there are some things
[00:18:58] that you can do to set yourself up for success with that
[00:19:01] and the more often you do it,
[00:19:03] if it's a daily habit or discipline,
[00:19:04] it has a cumulative effect
[00:19:06] and that discipline can grow too.
[00:19:08] Yeah.
[00:19:09] Yeah, so active listening is really kind
[00:19:11] of the step that leads to the other steps.
[00:19:12] So the second one is
[00:19:14] to make sure as a leader,
[00:19:16] you're proactively inviting input often.
[00:19:20] Feedback about ministry,
[00:19:22] about decisions, about leadership, et cetera,
[00:19:26] that you're providing space for people
[00:19:29] to communicate their feedback or their input.
[00:19:33] So communication is the number one barrier to health
[00:19:37] and one thing you could do with staff and volunteers
[00:19:41] is be proactive and you talk about this a lot.
[00:19:44] Don't just give people the truth on their performance review.
[00:19:49] Like don't wait to talk to people until once a year
[00:19:53] when you have to decide what sort of job they're doing.
[00:19:56] No, you're trying to check on a regular basis
[00:19:59] so they're not surprised.
[00:20:00] So you know exactly where you stand,
[00:20:02] find some kind of whatever your pattern is.
[00:20:04] I know you like to have those informal conversations
[00:20:06] with staff and but some people like to just have them
[00:20:10] scheduled once a week.
[00:20:11] I'm a hybrid of both of those things.
[00:20:14] And it's just an opportunity,
[00:20:16] hey, what do you think about this?
[00:20:18] Hey, we just did this new thing.
[00:20:20] What do you think about this?
[00:20:21] Hey, I'm thinking about,
[00:20:24] what do you think I just did this this week?
[00:20:25] We're thinking about our service structure
[00:20:28] and it will change it for the summer
[00:20:30] to alleviate the pressure on the team,
[00:20:33] on the volunteers and everything.
[00:20:34] Give everybody a little bit of breaks
[00:20:35] since summer attendance goes down a bit.
[00:20:39] So there's a few strategic staff members
[00:20:41] that I took a side.
[00:20:42] I'm like, hey, what do you think?
[00:20:43] What are your thoughts on this?
[00:20:44] Yeah.
[00:20:45] Really?
[00:20:46] And just develop the habit of asking for input.
[00:20:50] Ask it of your elders if you have a church board,
[00:20:53] ask it aboard members,
[00:20:54] and maybe some key congregation members.
[00:20:57] If you start to develop that sort of culture,
[00:20:59] then people aren't afraid to say their piece
[00:21:01] because you don't want them getting to the thing
[00:21:02] where they are afraid
[00:21:05] to say what they really think.
[00:21:07] Yeah.
[00:21:08] Or if you're not proactive about feedback,
[00:21:10] you're gonna get feedback one way or another
[00:21:12] is my experience.
[00:21:13] Yeah.
[00:21:14] So if you know, if you're out in front a little bit
[00:21:17] it actually re- again, repositions the conversation.
[00:21:20] Like I'm not defensive.
[00:21:21] I really wanna know what's gonna work best for us.
[00:21:24] I really wanna know if what we tried
[00:21:27] or the approach we took sat well with people
[00:21:29] or if we need to do something different.
[00:21:30] So when you're proactive it sort of disarming
[00:21:34] leads to less defensiveness for yourself and others.
[00:21:36] And yeah, having, especially for your key volunteers
[00:21:40] or your staff if you have a staff team,
[00:21:42] having regularly scheduled opportunities for feedback
[00:21:47] and to ask questions like how are you doing?
[00:21:50] How can I help?
[00:21:52] What was your sense of
[00:21:54] in then asking for that input?
[00:21:55] I mean, why wouldn't we wanna do that
[00:21:57] with people we trust and are working with?
[00:21:59] So it goes so far to getting out ahead of potential issues.
[00:22:04] And the longer I've been a leader
[00:22:06] and by default a manager of people in an organization
[00:22:10] the more I'm like, the more I can be proactive
[00:22:13] the less crisis management I have to do later down the road.
[00:22:16] Yeah.
[00:22:17] It doesn't mean that all the problems go away.
[00:22:19] It's just that we're dealing with them when they're smaller
[00:22:22] and a little more manageable
[00:22:23] and they're not these runaway huge deals
[00:22:25] that now we're like, and it's a train wreck.
[00:22:28] We gotta clean up.
[00:22:28] So I think I'm glad you put this one.
[00:22:31] I think who are we listening to?
[00:22:33] And maybe what you need to do is even just hit pause right here
[00:22:36] and list three or four people
[00:22:38] that you need to start actively seeking feedback
[00:22:41] and input from.
[00:22:43] And kind of, you know, hearing what people are saying
[00:22:46] and examining that.
[00:22:48] And go to trusted sources and figure that out.
[00:22:52] But I think you could do that in formal ways
[00:22:55] with like church surveys and other kinds of things.
[00:22:57] And then just in that, what I think you're saying
[00:22:59] is more of that relational way
[00:23:01] with people that you're working closer up with.
[00:23:04] Yeah.
[00:23:05] And I'll say this just as a tip,
[00:23:07] there are people in your orbit
[00:23:08] who are the people who aren't complainers
[00:23:11] because they don't want to appear to be critical.
[00:23:13] Right.
[00:23:14] Go to them first.
[00:23:15] Ask them what they think
[00:23:17] because they're not just complaining to complain.
[00:23:19] They'll tell you the truth.
[00:23:23] They'll tell you how it really is,
[00:23:24] but you're going to need to approach them
[00:23:26] because they're not going to want to appear to be divisive.
[00:23:29] They're not going to rock the boat or
[00:23:30] or something or whatever.
[00:23:32] Yeah.
[00:23:33] Exactly.
[00:23:33] And mostly a lot of those kinds of people
[00:23:35] are going with the flow kind of people
[00:23:36] and if it wasn't perfect,
[00:23:38] they're like, okay, that's fine or whatever.
[00:23:40] But we want to get better.
[00:23:41] We want to grow as leaders
[00:23:43] or we want to do whatever the thing is
[00:23:44] the object of that feedback.
[00:23:46] And so I think if we're not proactive,
[00:23:48] we will end up being reactive and paying the price.
[00:23:51] So yeah, this is a crucial leadership habit,
[00:23:53] proactive seeking proactively, getting that input.
[00:23:57] One of the biggest things that changed
[00:23:59] our ministry effectiveness
[00:24:01] is we got into a habit of debriefing everything.
[00:24:06] So every week we have a leadership meeting.
[00:24:10] This is a staff meeting.
[00:24:12] There are other, you know,
[00:24:14] listen, you may not have a big staff to gather around,
[00:24:16] but there are some key people
[00:24:17] you could invite one or two people to say,
[00:24:19] hey, every week let's look back and let's debrief.
[00:24:22] And it's as simple as this.
[00:24:25] What have we done since the last time we met?
[00:24:27] What went well?
[00:24:29] What didn't?
[00:24:30] What's something in between?
[00:24:32] What are some steps we should or shouldn't take?
[00:24:34] You're just asking questions like, how did go?
[00:24:37] And what happens is you discover problems
[00:24:39] before their problems.
[00:24:40] Yeah.
[00:24:41] So I'll give you an example of what happened.
[00:24:43] So there was some,
[00:24:45] there's been some frustration with trying
[00:24:50] to do a good job of the production around our kids choir.
[00:24:55] So every once in a while the kids cry out,
[00:24:56] and they'll do a song with our contemporary band.
[00:24:59] And it's really like a feel good sort of thing.
[00:25:01] And the kids like doing it,
[00:25:02] they're young kids and you know,
[00:25:04] there's kind of screaming out the lyrics and everything.
[00:25:06] It's not, yeah, I mean, it's a, but it's great.
[00:25:08] What?
[00:25:09] But there was some debate from our production folks
[00:25:12] in our kind of ministry staff folks is like,
[00:25:15] when do we do it?
[00:25:16] Because on the production side they want it to look
[00:25:18] and sound as good as everything else.
[00:25:21] But they're having a hard time doing that
[00:25:23] because of the way we do it.
[00:25:24] So like well, let's try it as part of the prelude
[00:25:29] and see if that helps us as far as the logistics
[00:25:32] of when we start the live stream, all this stuff, right?
[00:25:35] Okay, we tried it and we did it.
[00:25:38] And all the ministry staff were like,
[00:25:42] oh, we didn't like it as a prelude.
[00:25:45] And the production staff was like,
[00:25:47] what are you talking about?
[00:25:47] We loved it.
[00:25:49] And we were able to talk that out
[00:25:51] and come to a conclusion.
[00:25:53] If we hadn't debriefed it then,
[00:25:56] we would have just gone back to the old way
[00:25:59] and there would have been some resentment
[00:26:02] because we wouldn't have actually cared to listen
[00:26:05] to what the production team thought.
[00:26:06] Who are the ones that it has the biggest impact on?
[00:26:09] Right.
[00:26:10] So the point is by getting, having that habit of debriefing
[00:26:13] we discovered and dealt with problems before there were problems.
[00:26:17] And you're talking to some of the key stakeholders
[00:26:19] there that earned all of them.
[00:26:21] And I think when we're doing,
[00:26:23] you guys were trying something different,
[00:26:24] trying to, and anytime you're doing something different
[00:26:27] than the ordinary, lots of communication ahead of time
[00:26:31] but also debriefing it,
[00:26:33] it kinda makes it feel safer maybe
[00:26:36] to try new things because we know
[00:26:38] that we're not married to it.
[00:26:39] If it didn't work, we won't do it again
[00:26:41] but let's try it and then we'll examine it
[00:26:43] and go you know what?
[00:26:44] That did work.
[00:26:46] We should implement that more regularly or whatever, right?
[00:26:50] This year, Jason this has been ours.
[00:26:53] We were debating.
[00:26:54] So there's about seven Easter egg hunts in our area
[00:26:58] the Saturday before Easter Sunday.
[00:27:01] So lots of, couple churches, couple community organizations
[00:27:05] and then of course we do a big Easter egg hunt too.
[00:27:08] And so our staff team and a few other volunteers
[00:27:12] that kinda help run it said,
[00:27:13] why are we replicating what has already exists in our community?
[00:27:17] And people are just going from Easter egg hunt to Easter egg hunt
[00:27:19] around the community.
[00:27:20] Why, what if we partnered with one
[00:27:23] of those community organizations instead
[00:27:26] help with volunteering,
[00:27:27] help make it a great success
[00:27:29] and invite at all of our people to go to that Easter egg hunt?
[00:27:32] Now this seems like a pretty cool idea
[00:27:34] straight forward idea.
[00:27:35] But when we started to kinda tease it out there, man,
[00:27:38] we started, there's a lot of static around
[00:27:40] the Easter egg hunt thing as crazy.
[00:27:43] So but what we have said is we are gonna in fact do that.
[00:27:46] So this year we're partnering with one
[00:27:48] of our local community organizations
[00:27:50] to help with their Easter egg hunt
[00:27:51] and we're gonna have volunteers there
[00:27:53] and do all the things
[00:27:54] and then have our families go participate
[00:27:57] in that Easter egg hunt.
[00:27:58] But we've been saying, we're just, this is an idea.
[00:28:01] We're trying it if it doesn't work,
[00:28:03] you know us, we won't hesitate to bring back
[00:28:05] the Easter egg hunt like we've done it in the past.
[00:28:09] And so we're gonna be following up.
[00:28:10] We wanna know what your experience is like
[00:28:11] and we'll consider that feedback
[00:28:13] as we make future decisions.
[00:28:14] So sometimes even just teeing it up
[00:28:17] that we are gonna debrief and consider feedback
[00:28:20] after this experience actually helps people
[00:28:22] be okay with trying something new.
[00:28:23] So I think there's a lot of reasons why this works
[00:28:26] and why being the kind of organization
[00:28:29] and being the kind of leader
[00:28:30] that proactively seeks input is just vital
[00:28:33] to any forward movement and success.
[00:28:34] Yeah, and especially you need to do that
[00:28:36] when it's your idea
[00:28:38] because when it's your idea
[00:28:39] you have the least tendency to listen, right?
[00:28:42] So yeah, exactly.
[00:28:43] And I think learning that humility of saying
[00:28:46] I'm not married to this, it's an idea.
[00:28:48] Let's try it and if it doesn't work
[00:28:49] we'll change it again.
[00:28:50] Just having the humility as a leader
[00:28:53] even if you suspect that it's gonna go well
[00:28:55] and it's gonna be what you do forever after this.
[00:28:58] Have the humility to use that kind of mindset
[00:29:01] and invite others into it.
[00:29:02] Anyway, obviously you and I,
[00:29:04] we've suffered some trauma around this.
[00:29:06] I think we have.
[00:29:07] I know that before we leave this kind of bucket
[00:29:10] another question that I like that gets good responses is
[00:29:14] hey what am I not thinking of in this thing
[00:29:17] that we're doing?
[00:29:17] What am I missing?
[00:29:19] Please help me because man I miss stuff.
[00:29:21] So what do you think?
[00:29:23] Are there some things that we need to address
[00:29:24] that we're not addressing?
[00:29:25] And that is another great way
[00:29:26] to invite that feedback and input.
[00:29:29] Exactly, we just put up this whiteboard
[00:29:31] in our kind of lobby fellowship area
[00:29:33] that we have.
[00:29:35] It just says brainstorm with us on it
[00:29:38] and we listed a whole bunch of things
[00:29:39] that we're doing in our discipleship pathways
[00:29:42] and all the things
[00:29:43] and the question is what did we miss?
[00:29:45] What did we forget?
[00:29:47] What did we have we done before
[00:29:48] that we might want to consider doing again?
[00:29:50] What ideas have you discovered at other churches
[00:29:53] that you think might work here at Marine View?
[00:29:55] And we got I think 99% of the stuff
[00:29:58] are already on the whiteboard
[00:29:59] because we thought of a lot of things
[00:30:01] but we missed some things too
[00:30:02] and some other cool ideas.
[00:30:03] And so providing this feedback
[00:30:05] now everybody feels like they're a part of a conversation
[00:30:08] and not just you as a leader
[00:30:10] or you're a leadership team.
[00:30:11] So I think all those things are good
[00:30:13] for creating some goodwill
[00:30:15] and sort of a whimsomeness about your leadership.
[00:30:19] All right, so actively listening to God
[00:30:21] and one another proactively inviting input
[00:30:24] or feedback and then third is every church
[00:30:28] has its own culture, right?
[00:30:30] So what is your particular church culture telling you
[00:30:34] and are you listening?
[00:30:35] So give me an example.
[00:30:38] Your people are going to be early indicators
[00:30:42] of success or failure of any initiative that you're gonna do
[00:30:47] and the difference between success and failure
[00:30:50] is are you gonna listen
[00:30:52] and make the adjustments like you need to.
[00:30:55] So for example, we are gonna offer a new member class
[00:31:00] and we weren't gonna provide childcare
[00:31:04] because I don't know,
[00:31:07] I don't remember the original reason why
[00:31:09] but we weren't gonna do childcare
[00:31:10] for the new member class
[00:31:11] and then we started hearing back
[00:31:14] from a whole bunch of people,
[00:31:17] hey, if you really value this,
[00:31:21] you're gonna offer childcare
[00:31:21] because I know X and X and X
[00:31:23] and they all need childcare if they're gonna show up.
[00:31:26] And if we could have been stubborn
[00:31:30] and just not listened,
[00:31:32] but we decided no,
[00:31:34] we should do the childcare and turns out we really needed it
[00:31:36] and we had a whole bunch of kids
[00:31:38] and it was a really great service to the people
[00:31:40] who were coming to the new member class.
[00:31:43] That's just a small example
[00:31:44] but there are lots of them like,
[00:31:47] hey, we're planning to do this small group
[00:31:52] and people start voting with their feet
[00:31:54] that they're not super interested in it
[00:31:56] but we keep offering it every time.
[00:31:59] Yeah.
[00:31:59] Well, okay, are we really listening?
[00:32:01] Maybe they want something else
[00:32:02] and hey, have we asked the people
[00:32:04] we're trying to reach why they're not interested?
[00:32:07] Yeah.
[00:32:08] Have we invited that input proactively again
[00:32:11] with your own church people
[00:32:13] or have you heard people in your church saying
[00:32:15] we don't know anybody.
[00:32:17] I hear that.
[00:32:18] We don't know anybody.
[00:32:19] Yeah.
[00:32:20] All these new people here,
[00:32:21] we don't know anybody.
[00:32:22] Okay.
[00:32:23] So do we just ignore them and be like, okay, whatever
[00:32:25] or we say, wait a minute,
[00:32:26] maybe it's time to do a connecting kind of event.
[00:32:29] Yeah.
[00:32:30] Yeah.
[00:32:31] It's interesting to hold.
[00:32:33] I think it's spot on.
[00:32:34] But I think before we hit record
[00:32:36] as keep your finger on the pulse.
[00:32:37] Like, no, what's kind of underneath
[00:32:40] and what's going on?
[00:32:41] We've had a number of newer folks too
[00:32:43] and lots of new faces
[00:32:45] and so the face of the church literally changes.
[00:32:48] I mean, that happens in every church
[00:32:49] but especially in the post pandemic
[00:32:51] and the season of growth
[00:32:53] and all these newer families
[00:32:54] and people are going, who's church is this?
[00:32:56] I don't know half the people anymore
[00:32:58] or whatever that kind of phrase.
[00:32:59] And so you know what the idea that came up recently was?
[00:33:03] Let's bring Owen Mills back
[00:33:04] which is the photo booth people
[00:33:06] and do a photo directory
[00:33:07] because then we'll know everybody, right?
[00:33:09] And I was like, well,
[00:33:11] we haven't done one since like 2006
[00:33:15] and for a reason, right?
[00:33:16] Because the minute you print the thing,
[00:33:17] it's out of date
[00:33:18] because the new people that come next week
[00:33:19] and all the things
[00:33:20] and so we have a digital database called Breeze
[00:33:23] and you can put your picture on there
[00:33:24] and not everybody does all the things.
[00:33:26] And I was like, but what's behind the request?
[00:33:29] I want to know people.
[00:33:31] I want to be a community where
[00:33:33] I get to put a name and a face together
[00:33:36] and so what are we going to do
[00:33:37] while we're kicking around ideas?
[00:33:39] Do we do like once a month,
[00:33:41] paper, you know, little stick on name tags on day?
[00:33:43] Maybe that alienates some people.
[00:33:45] So maybe not.
[00:33:46] But it's the question is how do we facilitate
[00:33:48] and foster connection
[00:33:50] and also communicate with our folks
[00:33:52] that as a church grows,
[00:33:54] you're not going to know everybody.
[00:33:56] Yeah.
[00:33:57] And you used to maybe be in leadership
[00:33:59] and be in a position where you can know lots more people
[00:34:02] and now that's not so much the case.
[00:34:03] And so just because you don't know everybody
[00:34:06] doesn't mean that people aren't known
[00:34:09] and that as we grow,
[00:34:10] we have to think of ourselves differently.
[00:34:13] And if you're a relational-sized church,
[00:34:15] maybe you can know everybody in the congregation
[00:34:17] or at least reasonably so.
[00:34:18] But if you get, I don't know what the number is, Jason,
[00:34:20] I'm sure one of the church growth guys could tell us
[00:34:22] but there's an appointment which it's impossible.
[00:34:26] Yeah.
[00:34:26] It wouldn't even be wise to try to do that.
[00:34:29] And you know, so.
[00:34:31] I think it's 75.
[00:34:32] I think it's the Dunbar number.
[00:34:33] I think it's 75.
[00:34:34] It's 75.
[00:34:35] So over that, you're not going to know everything.
[00:34:36] So how do we help people understand
[00:34:38] but also listen to the culture that says,
[00:34:40] hey, we want to be a connected church
[00:34:42] and facilitate growing relationships.
[00:34:45] So doing something of that is crucial.
[00:34:48] Paying attention to what people are,
[00:34:51] what kind of the vibe underneath is
[00:34:53] and how we can be responsive to that and not miss it.
[00:34:57] Yeah, what's like bubbling up in the congregation?
[00:35:00] What's God stirring up?
[00:35:01] And you know, the whole,
[00:35:03] we don't know everybody anymore
[00:35:05] and we started hearing from some of our older members
[00:35:09] that hey, you know, we really don't get a chance
[00:35:11] to get to know the younger.
[00:35:12] We love being around the young families
[00:35:14] but they don't know how to make those relationships happen.
[00:35:18] So we're like okay, let's do
[00:35:19] and just like an old-fashioned spaghetti dinner.
[00:35:21] Yeah.
[00:35:22] And we'll have some music.
[00:35:24] We'll do a whole thing
[00:35:26] and then it was intergenerational
[00:35:28] and it was fantastic.
[00:35:30] And of course right away they're like,
[00:35:31] let's do another one, you know?
[00:35:32] Yeah, it likes to like next year.
[00:35:33] I think we're good for a while
[00:35:35] but the thing is we were listening
[00:35:39] and trying to figure out,
[00:35:41] cause not everything everyone says
[00:35:43] means you have to take action.
[00:35:45] But you should respond in some way.
[00:35:49] And even if it's a no or not yet
[00:35:51] or now it's not the time,
[00:35:53] your response or lack of response
[00:35:55] shows if you're listening or not.
[00:35:57] Yeah.
[00:35:57] And I think it gets hard when you're listening
[00:36:00] to the culture that in your church that's saying
[00:36:03] this used to be important in help for us
[00:36:05] but now we're just having to manufacture
[00:36:07] a lot of energy to pull this event
[00:36:09] or this group or this ministry off
[00:36:12] and it needs to be done.
[00:36:13] We need to retire it.
[00:36:15] That's a hard one to listen to
[00:36:16] and take action on.
[00:36:18] And I do think it's crucially important though.
[00:36:21] I remember it's been a number of years now
[00:36:23] but we had Stephen ministry,
[00:36:24] I don't know if you guys have that or not
[00:36:26] or you guys know what I'm saying.
[00:36:27] We used to.
[00:36:28] Yeah, sort of active listening
[00:36:29] and you know pairing people up
[00:36:31] for sort of a listening ear and a confident,
[00:36:35] person in your life.
[00:36:36] And what we had was a whole bunch
[00:36:38] of trained Stephen ministers
[00:36:41] but we didn't have people asking
[00:36:42] for a Stephen minister to walk alongside them.
[00:36:45] So we had like 50 trained Stephen ministers
[00:36:47] and like one or two requests
[00:36:49] for help from the Stephen minister.
[00:36:50] And so I just kept hearing over and over again.
[00:36:53] I went through all this training
[00:36:54] to become a Stephen minister
[00:36:55] how come you're not assigning me to anybody?
[00:36:57] And I'm like, well, I can't
[00:36:59] or it's someone to take a Stephen minister.
[00:37:00] I can't conjure them out of thin air for everybody.
[00:37:03] So after a while we all kind of just said,
[00:37:05] you know what maybe it's time to let that rest for a while
[00:37:10] and do something else.
[00:37:10] Maybe the needs have changed
[00:37:12] or the way that people engage with therapy.
[00:37:13] Maybe people are more likely to go to a counselor now
[00:37:16] than they were when Stephen ministry began
[00:37:17] or so we had to have a hard conversation
[00:37:20] about setting that ministry aside
[00:37:22] because the need wasn't there.
[00:37:25] We weren't hearing it in the culture of the church anymore
[00:37:28] at least not in the way that it had been expressed before.
[00:37:30] So I think it's that act of listening to your culture
[00:37:35] or your sense of things in the church
[00:37:37] and what's needed now, what maybe can go away.
[00:37:42] And you know, there's gonna be a crucial part of forward movement
[00:37:46] because if those 50 people were just waiting forever
[00:37:49] for someone, now they're not available
[00:37:52] to do something else meaningful
[00:37:53] in the way that they connect and serve
[00:37:54] in the life of the church.
[00:37:56] So yeah.
[00:37:57] So let too.
[00:37:59] And even when you're leading change
[00:38:00] or doing something that not everybody loves,
[00:38:02] it's good to just have your finger on that pulse
[00:38:06] and what is it that?
[00:38:08] Because maybe you could fix some things
[00:38:09] with a little clearer communication, right?
[00:38:11] Or clear up some misconceptions.
[00:38:14] But you don't really know if you're not listening.
[00:38:16] So that's kind of the point of that one.
[00:38:17] Listening to the culture of the church.
[00:38:20] To the culture of the region, admission,
[00:38:21] you're gonna notice some of that even more
[00:38:23] and I think again, you said about communication
[00:38:26] we can't over communicate.
[00:38:27] It was what it comes down to.
[00:38:28] And so communication is of course us saying things
[00:38:31] but communication is a two way street.
[00:38:33] It's sending and receiving messages.
[00:38:36] And what you're talking about today
[00:38:37] is the receiving side of communication.
[00:38:40] Listening well, actively engaging
[00:38:43] in paying attention to what somebody's saying.
[00:38:46] Seeking proactively going after input
[00:38:48] so that we can hear what people's ideas are
[00:38:52] that might be better than ours.
[00:38:53] And then kind of listening to the culture of the church
[00:38:55] just getting quiet long enough to know what the needs are,
[00:38:58] what's work and what's not
[00:38:59] and what might be needed next.
[00:39:01] So I love it Jason.
[00:39:02] This is leadership gotta have this.
[00:39:05] We gotta be listeners.
[00:39:07] So let's make sure that we are not doing the thing
[00:39:09] that everyone else in our world is doing
[00:39:11] and talking past each other.
[00:39:13] Let's make sure that we try to rediscover
[00:39:16] the art of listening.
[00:39:17] Let's try to cultivate some good listening practices
[00:39:20] so that we could be more effective leaders.
[00:39:23] All right.
[00:39:24] Well, hey everyone, thanks for listening to this.
[00:39:26] I hope it's helpful for you as we're in this leadership lane.
[00:39:28] Feel free to reach out to us, Jesse or Jason
[00:39:31] at reclaimleader.com.
[00:39:33] Anything else before we sign off here?
[00:39:35] No, just love talking leadership, talking shop, Jason
[00:39:37] and thanks for listening to me all these years.
[00:39:40] And I'm glad that we get to do that for each other.
[00:39:42] So we're happy to listen.
[00:39:44] If you got thoughts or ideas for us,
[00:39:45] we're all yours or mostly anyway.
[00:39:48] Ha ha ha.
[00:39:49] All right everyone.
[00:39:50] Hey, as we always say ministry is hard.
[00:39:52] It is so much better when we do it together.