[00:00:00] So the question for me is how have we reduced the breathtaking in-your-face adventure of faith
[00:00:07] and turned it into something that elicits kind of a yawn or a ho hum? And I think it's that we're
[00:00:14] lulled to sleep by religious routine. There's a problem with spiritual formation in most churches.
[00:00:21] Many think it's a combination of faithful attendance and volunteerism, but is that the
[00:00:26] same thing as following Jesus? We're starting a series on how to approach spiritual formation
[00:00:32] in your church. That's today on The Reclaimed Leader. Hey everyone, welcome to episode 338
[00:00:43] of The Reclaimed Leader. I'm Jason Tucker back again with Jesse Skiffington. How's it going,
[00:00:47] Jesse? I'm doing great, Jason. Just talking shop, talking leadership in the local church and
[00:00:52] thinking about how do we help people take steps around really kind of the core of our purpose
[00:00:58] to help them as disciples of Jesus and to grow in that and flourish in that. So
[00:01:02] we're kind of this month, we're moving in that direction and we're going to be talking around
[00:01:06] the themes of discipleship, spiritual formation, that kind of thing. So really looking forward
[00:01:11] to diving into this topic, Jason. Me too. And I think the funny part about it is,
[00:01:15] I mean, the whole point of what we're doing right is to make disciples. And it's amazing how
[00:01:20] many times, especially early on in my ministry, I didn't really have any sort of intentional
[00:01:26] strategy for how to do that. And it showed. Spiritual formation sometimes is a little bit
[00:01:33] like buckshot for churches. And you just sort of cross your fingers and hope and pray that it
[00:01:39] happens as you preach the gospel and encourage them to serve and everything else. But I've
[00:01:46] just really come to see the incredible impact that having a strategy of any kind provides.
[00:01:53] Yeah. I think sometimes it's overwhelming to try to figure out what our strategy is going to be. And
[00:01:59] I think what I found and maybe you've found too is just pick one and go with it because there's a
[00:02:04] lot of good ways to go about creating a vision for a growing faith, a growing life as a disciple
[00:02:09] of Jesus. And I noticed something this is a number of years ago that I kind of looked up and I
[00:02:16] noticed that the best discipleship that our people had received had come from their time at
[00:02:22] the church they had been at before they came to Marine View or something like that.
[00:02:26] Yeah, yeah. You're like their best discipleship happened somewhere else or at least it seemed
[00:02:30] like that, whether that was true or not. And it kind of was convicting to think how were we
[00:02:35] doing at one of our core purposes helping people to be disciples and then to be disciples
[00:02:42] that end up making disciples and growing in faith and sort of that spiritual formation piece
[00:02:47] that is really core to what we're about. So I've been writing and talking about my trip to Universal
[00:02:54] Orlando with my son and Adnazi and my nose so I'm not going to keep talking about it.
[00:03:01] But I was thinking about real rides, roller coasters and our subscribers you got the whole story
[00:03:08] about the Velasa coaster which was pretty funny. But even just all those sorts of rides
[00:03:14] at a amusement park and thinking about what that does to your just adrenaline and the thrill of that.
[00:03:20] And because I'm a pastor, Jesse, and I can't shut it off, I just constantly am thinking about
[00:03:26] isn't that what following Jesus is like? It's a thrill ride. I don't know what the heck's coming
[00:03:31] next and oftentimes in the best way possible. It's like living a life of faith is an adventure.
[00:03:40] But what I've noticed, certainly not at Marine View because people are so charged up there, but
[00:03:47] what I've noticed is people don't see, at least the people that come to church don't really see
[00:03:52] their spiritual formation as a thrill ride. They see it like a lazy river. It's like,
[00:03:58] and I don't know how you feel about lazy rivers. I like lazy river, Jesse.
[00:04:02] You know what? There's questionable water quality. It's questionably warm. There's always too many
[00:04:11] people and not enough inflatable. I don't know. To me, it's not a very exciting experience, but
[00:04:17] I feel like for a lot of people they have a lazy river approach to their spiritual formation.
[00:04:23] It's like, yeah, you know, it's pretty good and we're just going to kind of float here
[00:04:28] and do our religious thing, which isn't particularly compelling.
[00:04:31] No. And think about I'd take your lazy river example. And as much as I sometimes enjoy the lazy
[00:04:37] river, where do you end up on a lazy river? Back where you started? It just goes in a circle.
[00:04:42] Right? So I do think there are times in the life of the church or in particular
[00:04:47] Christians like we kind of get plateaued or stagnant or just kind of retreading the
[00:04:52] same experience over again. And are we really growing or are we just kind of
[00:04:58] going around in a circle in our faith in some way at that same level over and over again?
[00:05:03] And do we as churches have a vision to help people take steps to bring them to deeper and
[00:05:08] more mature places in their spiritual life, in their life as disciples?
[00:05:13] So the question for me is how have we reduced the breathtaking in-your-face adventure of faith
[00:05:21] and turned it into something that elicits kind of a yawn or a ho-hum? And I think it's that we're lulled
[00:05:28] to sleep by religious routine, no matter how engaging that routine is. So John Stott wrote a book on
[00:05:39] discipleship, just very simple invitation to discipleship. And he talked about John Wesley's
[00:05:44] story. John Wesley of course is everyone knows the founder of Methodism and he was a young man
[00:05:52] at Oxford in 1729, and he and his brother and a few friends started what they called the Holy
[00:05:58] Club. That sounds pretty exciting. But they had three buckets of things that they were really
[00:06:05] into. Number one, orthodoxy. They studied all the creeds. They made sure that they had
[00:06:11] a right belief about Jesus. Number two, philanthropy. So they believed he had to go and serve and I think
[00:06:18] they went to like a local prison or something and they did some things there. And then the third,
[00:06:23] piety. If there's a religious service happening, you go to it once, twice, three times a week,
[00:06:29] whatever is available. And the funny thing about the Holy Club is that years later,
[00:06:34] Wesley was reflecting back on his life and he goes, I don't even think I was a Christian then.
[00:06:42] Because he was doing all the things but he didn't have a relationship with Jesus.
[00:06:47] And it was quite famously years later where he's at that Moravian meeting and they're studying
[00:06:53] Martin Luther's commentary on Romans and the topic of justification by faith alone comes up
[00:07:00] and he's like, I felt my heart strangely warmed. And very famously, he realized that
[00:07:06] it was a relationship with Jesus that was missing the whole time. And I wonder how much the Holy
[00:07:12] Club mentality has been dominating our experience in churches. Well, if you do the things,
[00:07:18] orthodoxy, philanthropy, piety, and how many are missing the actual relationship.
[00:07:27] Yeah, that's a hard thing too because there's a lot of really well-intentioned great folks who
[00:07:32] have been sitting in a pew their whole life and maybe haven't quite gotten that experience of
[00:07:36] God's grace or that sense of, man, it really is true that God loves me, that he sent his son
[00:07:42] Jesus for me and to know that intimacy with God in that way. So I think there's,
[00:07:48] how do we help people to have something out of an experience of that? And you said,
[00:07:51] adventure of faith, it's funny. One of our local churches here that I'm connected with and
[00:07:58] meet with their pastors quite a lot. It's called the adventure of faith, Presbyterian church.
[00:08:03] That's the name. It's right in the title. And they've had this name since they were started,
[00:08:08] I think back in 1987 or something is when they were founded. And adventure of faith,
[00:08:12] lived the adventure of life with Jesus. I mean, it's sort of like, oh, that sounds
[00:08:17] interesting. That sounds compelling. And I wonder what that's like. So even if you're not
[00:08:23] a follower of Jesus or you're not sure about it, you go, I didn't know it. I was supposed to think
[00:08:27] of faith in terms of an adventure to be lived or a relationship with Jesus to be had. I always
[00:08:32] thought of it as kind of a holy club to be a part of where good people do good things or
[00:08:36] something like that. Yeah. So how do we move toward adventure of warming of hearts, if you
[00:08:43] will, and away from a holy club mentality? Well, I think part of it starts with just framing
[00:08:49] discipleship in a way that helps people understand what it really means. So tell me if you agree
[00:08:57] with this, Jesse, I feel like for a lot of people in our churches, they see discipleship
[00:09:03] as primarily knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. That it's like in a classroom, like I
[00:09:10] I need to do the Bible study and I need to get the knowledge. And I don't quite yet have enough
[00:09:15] knowledge, but once I do, I'm going to get to this next level of my faith and then the next. But
[00:09:20] the problem is that it's such that is such a passive thing. You're not actually doing your
[00:09:28] faith. You're learning about your faith. It's the same way like you can know all about God
[00:09:34] and not actually know God at all. You know, like celebrity culture there. Listen, I know Jesse,
[00:09:40] you're into the latest People Magazine online and you know all about celebrities, but people
[00:09:46] that do a rabbit trail into this, like they know their kids names and they know like their favorite
[00:09:51] ice cream and all that, but they don't know them. Yeah. And I wonder if that's a bit what's going
[00:09:57] on in life in the mainline church in America is this idea that we know a lot about God,
[00:10:04] but maybe we don't know God. And it's and I think it's because we need to move to a more active
[00:10:10] way of understanding discipleship, not just this passive head knowledge. Yeah. I think that's
[00:10:16] spot on, you know, and I'm sure there's a lot of nuance and to it and people's good
[00:10:20] intentions, but I think there is a gap between knowing and doing that is the difference
[00:10:25] between a vibrant life of discipleship and just sort of a holy club kind of faith mentality where
[00:10:32] you know some things and you understand some things, but it's in the doing that your faith
[00:10:37] really comes alive. And putting Jesus' words into action is that's where you're building on
[00:10:41] the solid rock, right? It was when you do. And so I think the knowing and doing thing, I remember
[00:10:47] Pastor John used to talk about what he called spiritually obese Christians. And I was like,
[00:10:51] that's not very nice, John. He's a pastor here. But he's talking about people who only take and
[00:10:55] take and take and consume the knowledge of Christian faith but never live it and don't put
[00:11:01] into action. They don't work it out. And so they have all this accumulation of knowledge and
[00:11:06] things, but it's not showing up in the way that they live or in their relationships or other
[00:11:10] kinds of things, not bearing fruit. And so I think something of that. And I was probably
[00:11:16] 10 plus years ago that we, the way we were even organized as a church discipleship was one of our
[00:11:22] programs in the church. It was, you know, kids ministry, youth ministry, survey, serving or
[00:11:28] missions and discipleship and whatever. And by giving it just one slice of the sort of program,
[00:11:35] it was like a disciple means people who've taken these classes or done these activities.
[00:11:40] And so, you know, it was probably I think 2013 or 14 that we said, you know what, we're going to stop
[00:11:46] doing that and we're going to say everything in the life of the church is discipleship of some kind.
[00:11:51] All of it. All of it's falling in the way of Jesus and the way we work out our faith and grow.
[00:11:55] And knowledge is a part of that. We want to learn and grow our minds and grow our knowledge,
[00:12:02] but we need to then figure out how to help people live it because that's where it really
[00:12:05] comes alive. Yeah. Yeah, so I think a helpful way of communicating that to the congregation.
[00:12:12] And I think a great way to do it is to do a sermon series on it and let it bloom from there.
[00:12:18] But he's just talking about it as a way, a path because a way or a path is something
[00:12:24] that you walk that you move. I mean, what if we've learned anything from Steven Tyler is
[00:12:30] you walk this way, right? No, but the idea that I mean, Psalm one, someone is the two ways, right?
[00:12:39] The Godway and the not Godway and the Godway you will flourish like a tree planted by streams.
[00:12:45] So, right? So I think about Jeremiah 616 asked for the ancient past,
[00:12:53] asked for the good way and walk in it, right? So you actually walk in that way or John 14,
[00:12:59] Jesus, I am the way. So it's a direction of faithfulness or as Eugene Peter says,
[00:13:05] a long obedience in the same direction. Yeah. Of course, heading for our lives in which we get to
[00:13:11] live out something of an adventure as we're moving in. How do you say that though, Jason? Without
[00:13:18] making people feel bad or feeling judged about the way that they've understood their faith
[00:13:26] before? How do you not offend holy club people in this invitation to this new way of living?
[00:13:35] I always frame it as what if there was something even more? So I'm not going to beat you up for
[00:13:42] what's come before. In fact, there's probably some good things. That's not it. It's what if
[00:13:47] you could unlock another level of your relationship with God? What would that be like in your life
[00:13:54] if you were able to do that? Would things be better or worse? How would it feel? What sort of
[00:14:01] decisions would you make? You sort of get them dreaming that maybe there's something else,
[00:14:05] something more. And I think that's a nice way of introducing it. So it's an invitation. It's
[00:14:09] not beating. It's an invitation, right. I think that spot on is like instead of beating up on
[00:14:16] what didn't work or what you think is wrong with the way things are, why not give a vision
[00:14:19] for what could be? And let's move in this direction. And so it's sort of that old adage of,
[00:14:24] don't spend all your energy fighting the old, build something new and vibrant and healthy
[00:14:28] that people can be a part of. And I think that's a good way to do it because I do think sometimes
[00:14:33] people with really great intentions have maybe sat in a pew for most of their life
[00:14:38] and kind of maybe missed the adventure. And we don't want like, I don't want to alienate
[00:14:43] those people, but I do want to challenge them and move them from where they are too.
[00:14:47] So I think there's wisdom in how to navigate that well as you're casting that.
[00:14:52] Yeah. Yeah. And then I think the second thing, so reframing it's one thing. I think the second
[00:14:59] thing is you just need to acknowledge there's a tension happening when it comes to spiritual
[00:15:04] formation. And I think there are probably many, but here's the tension I'm thinking of is
[00:15:09] on the one hand, we know that disciples are handcrafted not mass produced, right? It's
[00:15:16] a journey of faith that takes relationship. And yet intention with that is the fact that we need to
[00:15:23] scale that somehow to make discipleship happen at a congregational level. And I think
[00:15:31] as long as you acknowledge like it's okay to live in that tension because I just think both
[00:15:35] are true. I don't think they're opposites. I just think both are true.
[00:15:37] What you need to grow and what I need to grow are different things, but if we can provide a
[00:15:41] variety of pathways to follow, to grow in faith, then it can meet people where they are within
[00:15:46] something that's maybe a sustainable structure or framework that can grow to meet a lot of
[00:15:54] different people. So I think that tension is really good. And for me too, one of the other things
[00:16:00] is trusting what God is doing in people's lives. There are some people that you kind of look
[00:16:06] at and go, I don't think they're ever going to get it or whatever. And I've just met too many
[00:16:14] people whose faith has really come alive in the later years of their life. I think of one in particular
[00:16:20] that he just talks about it wasn't until he was 76 that he really felt that relationship with Jesus
[00:16:27] kindled in his heart. And it was like his faith had always been there, but it was alive in a new
[00:16:32] way. And it showed and people noticed it. And they were like, what happened to him?
[00:16:37] So it's never too late for someone in that journey of faith. And who knows what God is doing and the
[00:16:42] timing that he has for folks as we're faithfully trying to cast this vision.
[00:16:46] Yeah. And sort of back again with the tension of it, there's a tension because
[00:16:53] you feel like you have... We talk a lot about deep and wide. And usually it feels like it's
[00:16:59] deep or wide when it comes to spiritual formation in your congregation. But
[00:17:03] and there are times when you feel like, so Eugene Peterson in a long obedience in the same
[00:17:07] direction. I think I told you last week I had pulled that off the shelf again.
[00:17:11] Yeah. And I'm so glad I did. But
[00:17:14] page 16 he says, religion in our time has been captured by the tourist mindset.
[00:17:18] Religion is understood as a visit to an attractive site to be made when we have
[00:17:22] adequate leisure. He said the problem is pastors are not tour guides.
[00:17:27] That's right. Yeah. And to me that just speaks to the tension of on the one hand,
[00:17:32] how do we scale it in such a way that we can talk about it as a congregation
[00:17:37] but that it actually has to have some deep sustaining relationships to happen?
[00:17:43] Yeah. And talking in terms of there are no shortcuts to the things that matter most in
[00:17:47] life and faith. There's no easy button. It's a long obedience. It's a slow progression
[00:17:52] in the way of Jesus. And there's different starting points, different continuing points
[00:17:56] for all of us, different ups and downs in that journey. But thinking of it in terms of a long
[00:18:02] journey or a long obedience, I've always resonated with that. I think a lot of us have
[00:18:06] as we've read Eugene's book over the years. It's just like, yeah, that is true. It's
[00:18:10] not an instant kind of thing. It's a process that unfolds over time. And even something
[00:18:15] of that for people saying, you can make some good progress on this and it may not feel like
[00:18:21] you're running at full speed or something, but you're progressing in your faith. Look at how far
[00:18:27] you've come. My son, Will's 12, he can't wait to grow to catch up with all his friends.
[00:18:33] Every day he's like, Dad, did I grow today? And I'm like,
[00:18:36] buddy, I don't know if you guys have one of these in your house or a board or
[00:18:41] something that you've measured your kids' heights on over the years.
[00:18:44] And there's times where you see substantial growth over a couple of months. You're
[00:18:49] like, whoa, you grew like an inch and a half in a month. No wonder your legs hurt all the time.
[00:18:54] And there's other times where nothing happens for a little while. But it's progress over time.
[00:18:59] Hey, you're going to get there. Just hang in there. Keep going.
[00:19:04] Okay. So then number three is then you need a clear strategy. And this is really what we're
[00:19:11] going to be getting at a lot this month is the clear strategy part. But a way that I like
[00:19:16] to start it is by something that I heard when I think we were both at together,
[00:19:21] we might have had this breakout at North Point together about three questions for spiritual
[00:19:26] formation. And I find these questions very helpful for churches as a way of getting started.
[00:19:31] And it was helpful for my church. Yeah. So here are the three questions.
[00:19:35] Question number one, what do you believe about spiritual growth? This reveals your theology.
[00:19:42] So if you were to sit down either by yourself or with your elders or something like that and
[00:19:49] started thinking about, well, what do we believe about spiritual? What do we believe that God does?
[00:19:53] What would believe that happens to people? What does it look like to grow in intimacy with God?
[00:19:59] And you might think things like greater Christ likeness. What's that look like? Well,
[00:20:04] it looks like more fruit of the spirit, intimacy with God, loss of self, whatever,
[00:20:09] whatever your answer is. As it reveals your theology, that's what's going to inform your
[00:20:15] strategy later. But it's a really, I think, helpful exercise to just put it into words.
[00:20:21] Don't assume we all know what we're talking about. We're talking about
[00:20:24] what do we believe about spiritual growth? Absolutely. Yeah. Getting on the same page
[00:20:28] about that or at least getting all the pieces out there and any more, I don't know, maybe
[00:20:33] some of our pastors that are listening in have congregations filled with people who grew
[00:20:38] up in that denomination and whatever. But I think any more, we have people from all kinds of
[00:20:43] different faith backgrounds that are going to maybe see this question in different ways depending on
[00:20:48] whether they were churched or unchurched or non-denominational or Presbyterian or Lutheran
[00:20:52] or Methodist or Baptist or whatever they might have come from. And so having something of a
[00:20:57] conversation around this question, I think is an important first starting point. We had
[00:21:04] a group the other day and it was about 40 people and we were doing a Bible study. And somehow the
[00:21:09] question about where did all the denominations come from came up. And I said, well, how many of you
[00:21:14] grew up Presbyterian? And out of the room only four out of the 40 raised their hand. And we had
[00:21:21] people from all kinds of different backgrounds, from former, you know, been in the Catholic
[00:21:26] church before, a Baptist, people who come non-denominational land and no church at all.
[00:21:30] So that's the community that we have probably in our churches. And so getting clear about what do we
[00:21:36] mean? How do we understand it? That's crucial. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right. So that's kind
[00:21:43] of step number one question number one. And then another question, second question would be,
[00:21:49] how do you talk about spiritual growth in your church? And it could just be a pastor,
[00:21:54] how do you talk about it with people? Or maybe you don't talk about it with people.
[00:22:00] How do you refer to is discipleship a program? Or is it a pathway that you follow? Is it a
[00:22:06] series of steps that you offer? I mean, what does that look like? This reveals your common language.
[00:22:11] And I think this is really helpful to think about. Right. So how do we all make sure we
[00:22:17] understand when we say things from up front about taking a next step and whatever it is,
[00:22:24] that everybody knows what we're talking about. And I think whatever the language you pick,
[00:22:29] keep it consistent, right? Use this language, be on the same page about it with your leaders and
[00:22:35] have that over time. People are going to kind of pick up on that, whatever you lined with.
[00:22:40] I don't know what kinds of language do you guys use, Jason? Even when you're talking
[00:22:43] about spiritual growth. Yeah, we use the language of next steps and the idea that
[00:22:47] faith is a process and everyone could take a step and every step matters.
[00:22:51] Step matters, every step forward is some progress, whether it's big or small. Yeah, good.
[00:22:55] Exactly. But we're starting to work, we're toying with the idea of, and this is just a
[00:23:02] thought experiment here right now, but we've been starting to talk about to build out our
[00:23:07] spiritual formation strategy again, but to do it because we're such a different church than we
[00:23:13] were just a few years ago, to do it around kind of like, if you're to say kind of three questions
[00:23:23] of what we hope a Christian will believe. So we believe that they'll want them to trust Jesus
[00:23:31] as their savior, know Jesus as their friend and obey Jesus as their Lord. And so what would it
[00:23:36] look like to build our strategy around those three points? So, like for example,
[00:23:46] if the discipleship goals are those three things, let's say, okay, trust Jesus as savior. This includes
[00:23:53] stages of faith stuff, like even when they're pre-Christian, if you will,
[00:23:58] are we going to offer Alpha? Are we going to offer some sort of thing for them
[00:24:03] so that they start to consider trusting Jesus as their savior? Or baptism, or new member classes,
[00:24:11] or part two, knowing Jesus as friend. Again, stages of faith. Do you want them to get into groups that
[00:24:18] are around, based around that, or opportunities for serving and giving, obey Jesus as Lord? So
[00:24:24] you sort of see like thinking about building our strategy around what are the goals of
[00:24:29] discipleship that we have for people. That's kind of something we're kicking around.
[00:24:32] Yeah, I think that's spot on. So getting some common language, shared language, again, you can
[00:24:37] pick a lot of different things under the Great Commission or the Great Commandment. Love God,
[00:24:42] love your neighbor, and go and make disciples. I mean, there's a lot of different ways to
[00:24:46] articulate something underneath that that is going to be your particular way of moving toward that.
[00:24:51] But I think creating shared language that is, I think, transferable in the sense that
[00:24:57] people can remember it, and they can share it with each other. And if somebody said,
[00:25:02] what's your church about? Well, they could kind of get there most of the way,
[00:25:05] even if they couldn't say it quite the way that a pastor does. So it goes a long way to being
[00:25:09] on the same page and having the same vision about what we're trying to do. What's the goal here?
[00:25:13] Yeah, I agree. And so North Point is very, I mean, theirs has worked really well for a long
[00:25:19] time. And that's the five faith catalysts. That's what they've built their spiritual
[00:25:23] formation around. So for those who don't know, or me probably heard us say it a
[00:25:26] million times, but practical teaching, personal ministry, private disciplines,
[00:25:32] pivotal circumstances, providential relationships. So they build it around those five P's,
[00:25:39] or those five things, and that's where they get their strategies. But they all talk about it with
[00:25:44] that language. So they understand what you're talking about when you say personal ministry,
[00:25:49] right? Exactly. Or when somebody, pivotal circumstance, when you're going through
[00:25:53] something in life like a birth or a marriage or a loss of a loved one, those are all moments in which
[00:25:58] our faith is going to grow or something's going to happen as an opportunity to see God do something.
[00:26:04] So having that shared language is really helpful and important. And I think keeps
[00:26:09] something of some boundaries around what you're doing too to go, this is what we're doing,
[00:26:12] and this is not what we're doing with this other thing over here. So yeah, really helpful.
[00:26:16] And there's some overlap with question number three that you ask is question number three
[00:26:20] is, well then how do you deliver on the spiritual growth? Like what's your actual,
[00:26:24] this reveals your specific strategy, which is very much close to number two and that
[00:26:29] with your particular language that you use. But what's your strategy?
[00:26:33] And I mentioned the stages of faith from I Once Was Lost.
[00:26:38] There are five stages that people go through to get to Jesus. Before they come to faith,
[00:26:45] it's trust, trusting a Christian curiosity, openness and then actually seeking.
[00:26:52] And then on the other side of faith, exploring, building, owning and thriving. So
[00:26:58] you could take that idea and build your spiritual formation strategy around that as a way to deliver
[00:27:06] spiritual growth. Now I want to say deliver spiritual growth. We know that God delivers it.
[00:27:10] But we're acknowledging it's a partnership and that's what the strategy is for.
[00:27:13] Well, it's about being strategic and meeting people where they are so that God can be at work
[00:27:18] in them from where they are. And I think in Don Everett's book, that's when he's talking about
[00:27:23] I Once Was Lost, he's saying if you can meet people where they are and understand the threshold
[00:27:28] that they're on, maybe the thing they need to do first is just to get to know a reasonable
[00:27:34] Christian and come to trust them. And so maybe our first job is just to be a really great
[00:27:39] friend or neighbor to someone that's not a Christian and not try to convince them of anything
[00:27:43] yet. But we have to know kind of that and trust that God is going to do something through that.
[00:27:48] Because when I share that, some people are like, well isn't our job to share the gospel?
[00:27:54] And it is. But let's get the timing right in someone's life and meet them where
[00:27:58] God is at work in their life rather than putting them somewhere where they're not ready
[00:28:02] to be yet. So I think this is, yeah, gives some helpful language and it acknowledges all
[00:28:06] of the way along that sort of God is at work in someone's heart. But Jesus is calling them
[00:28:13] in acts. The Lord is the one who added to their number daily, those who are being saved. So
[00:28:17] it's that mentality but creating a framework in which that can take place that's wise and
[00:28:22] strategic. Yeah. And if you have a strategy, what you discover is God's leveraging it all the
[00:28:32] time. And I don't know if it's just that I'm noticing it more or that God's using it more
[00:28:42] because we're being more faithful. But I'll give you an example of what I mean. You never know
[00:28:47] where people are at but we had some folks that we've been acquaintances slash friends with
[00:28:54] for years in our town and through youth sports and stuff like that. And I would have put them
[00:29:00] in the category of, you know, they're just not ever going to be church people and
[00:29:07] got to be a little guarded about what I say and all of that. And they showed up here on Sunday
[00:29:16] and I would have told you there's no way. And you don't know what's going to come of it.
[00:29:24] I don't know if they're going to come back or anything like that. But it's like I felt God telling me
[00:29:32] don't be ridiculous about what you think is impossible. It's like I'm using all sorts of things
[00:29:41] and what he's using the most is our genuine relationships with people.
[00:29:49] But if you got within the context of that relationship, if you have something intentional
[00:29:54] to invite them to do a step to take, it makes all the difference. It does. Yeah. Yeah. And people want
[00:30:02] want something like that or something in front of them to move toward. And I think that's just
[00:30:07] so it's just wise for us even if we don't you can be a really small church and offer a few
[00:30:13] things. That's kind of where some of the programmatic or event based stuff kind of
[00:30:17] comes in or groups. And we want you to land in a group because we think growing faith
[00:30:21] happens better in circles than in rows. Again, stolen from North Plain. But you know,
[00:30:27] what's your thinking to get people from where they are closer to where God wants them to be
[00:30:32] and to be authentic in that and trust what God's doing but also be thoughtful about
[00:30:38] that and trusting that as you provide those opportunities, God's going to work through
[00:30:41] them. So I like that. Isn't that how Jesus is discipled? I mean, truly is that I mean,
[00:30:45] he did it strategically. He didn't meet him day one and then send him out two by two.
[00:30:49] I mean, there was a strategy to what he did and when he did it. And he was very,
[00:30:54] I don't get the sense that he was just winging it. I get the sense that he was very intentional
[00:30:58] intentionality is the thing. And so sometimes I think when people hear the word strategy,
[00:31:03] it I don't know whatever it does for you, maybe it makes you go, I don't know about that.
[00:31:07] Intentionality being intentional, that's something that you can you can grapple with.
[00:31:12] And that's really what strategy is. It's putting some legs to your good intentions
[00:31:16] and making sure that you have something that's going to follow through and be available and
[00:31:22] in a predictable way. So that's, I think just wise thinking we need to be,
[00:31:26] so what is our strategy to move people and to help them to take steps? And
[00:31:31] do we have one? I think that's a really important question for every church to ask.
[00:31:36] All right. Well, hey, thanks everyone for listening today. I hope this is helpful. I'm
[00:31:40] excited for this series, Jesse. I think this is a really important topic for our churches.
[00:31:46] It's one thing to have people walk in the door and it's another thing to help them
[00:31:52] connect in a deeper way in their relationship with God. And so I think it's in all of our best
[00:31:57] interests to do exactly this and that's have a spiritual formation strategy. Anything else before
[00:32:02] we sign off here today? No, I just think if you're feeling behind on all of this and like,
[00:32:07] man, what are we doing? Just like we say so often here, just pick something and start working
[00:32:13] on it. And it's going to add up over time, just like people are on a spiritual journey,
[00:32:17] churches are on a journey too. And so if you can add something that helps create some vision
[00:32:22] for discipleship or create some shared language for spiritual formation or whatever,
[00:32:27] like do that, take one step and then another and then another. And pretty soon you'll look up
[00:32:31] and be like, oh, look what we've done. Look what's happened. So stick with it. We're rooting
[00:32:36] for you. Always grateful, Jason, to be talking shop with you and Jason and I talk as much
[00:32:40] before and after the record as we do on the podcast. We got all sorts of episodes that never
[00:32:45] aired. That's right. We should just hit record and people could see what a circus we really are.
[00:32:51] We're figuring it out too, as we go along the way and grateful to be part of the conversation
[00:32:55] with everybody tuning in. Because ministry is hard, it is so much better when we do it together.
[00:33:02] Take care, everyone.