[00:00:00] How am I going to be the kind of leader in the church that has the in first place in my life is not my identity as a
[00:00:08] pastor, but that identity comes underneath the Lordship of Christ in my life and
[00:00:13] That's that's how I'm gonna lead
[00:00:16] Welcome to episode 341. We're finishing up our spiritual formation series with what is perhaps the most important one
[00:00:23] The spiritual health of the leader will identify three important truths to move us forward in faith
[00:00:30] That's today on the Reclaimed Leader. Hey everyone. Welcome to episode 341 of the Reclaimed Leader
[00:00:42] We're just two pastors working for revitalization and change
[00:00:46] We hit record on our conversations and hopefully they help you to do the same
[00:00:50] I'm Jason Tucker back again with Jesse Skiffington. How's it going, Jesse?
[00:00:55] Keeping my head above water this week Jason, and you know what before we hit record
[00:00:58] We're both talking about how we were in meetings that we were like man. Why am I doing here?
[00:01:03] We just you know, there's a lot going on but that's okay
[00:01:06] I that's a recurring theme in this podcast whenever we hit record
[00:01:11] We're like we have a lot going on and I know all those listening in whether your church leader an elder or pastor
[00:01:17] Maybe you're working out there in the marketplace as a leader. You have a lot going on got a lot on your plates, too
[00:01:22] So keep going. We're making it. We're making it right making it. Yeah, everything's fine
[00:01:29] It's going well. So one of the things we wanted to talk about this month, of course
[00:01:34] We looked at sort of these ideas around discipleship strategies for our congregations
[00:01:39] And how do we help create a culture of spiritual formation in our churches and discipleship and all that and that's I think really important
[00:01:46] That's sort of the strategic side of organizational leadership to to create pathways for growing faith and
[00:01:52] taking steps to go deeper with Jesus and
[00:01:55] To live out of faith in a real way and I think that's really helpful
[00:01:59] We're gonna actually continue some of that I think as we go along because it's just really what's needed in in the lives of
[00:02:05] Congregations right now clear understanding of how we're gonna help people to take steps to grow
[00:02:10] But there's this other piece that I think is really important
[00:02:13] And we kind of entered into the conversation last week with our friend Jim singleton Jim came on and was sharing about his recent book
[00:02:20] Attentive church leadership and we talked through that but Jim's real heart is for a
[00:02:26] Discipleship and I think we'll probably have him back on to talk shop around discipleship down the road
[00:02:30] But he not only wants healthy discipleship in the lives of congregations, but also in the lives of pastors and leaders
[00:02:37] There's this sort of core conviction that
[00:02:40] Healthy churches come from healthy leaders healthy in the sense of we have our own flourishing life with Christ
[00:02:46] That is impacting the way that we we lead our churches and when we're healthier
[00:02:51] Our congregations are gonna be healthier and when our faith is flourishing
[00:02:55] It's gonna have that kind of cascading impact
[00:02:57] And I don't know Jason sometimes that feels like a little bit of pressure because I don't always feel like I'm like
[00:03:04] Dialed in and flourishing in every minute of the day in my faith. I don't I don't know for you
[00:03:10] You know, how do you keep that alive? You know
[00:03:13] well, I
[00:03:16] Think how you keep it alive is it begins with being aware that something's not exactly right, right?
[00:03:22] paying attention to that feeling because I think what happens
[00:03:27] often is I
[00:03:29] Sort of become like a wind-up doll
[00:03:32] Yeah, and and I have my talking points with different, you know people in the life of the church
[00:03:38] And it's not that I'm not genuine about those talking points, but if I am not
[00:03:43] Really intentional about my own walk with Jesus
[00:03:47] It turns into a little bit of an acting job not that I'm trying to be someone
[00:03:52] I'm not but it's like it's not coming from a place of what I'm experiencing right now and what happens is
[00:03:59] Is that it exhausts me?
[00:04:02] Yeah, yep further depletes me because I'm not I'm not drawing upon that well
[00:04:09] That's drawn upon whatever reserves I got left
[00:04:12] And it just it shows up. I feel it. I don't know how to explain it, but the page
[00:04:18] I think that captures it really well
[00:04:20] And I think early on in ministry when we were first leading
[00:04:23] There's like a daily dependence on the Lord because it was like God you better show up or you know
[00:04:27] I don't know what's gonna happen
[00:04:29] run through change and crisis and solving problems and sort of this this ongoing need and now a
[00:04:35] Couple years in we're down the road a little I don't want to admit how long we've been doing ministry down the road
[00:04:40] All right shows our age a little bit
[00:04:42] But there is a degree of technical competence that we've arrived at that in a certain sense
[00:04:47] We can wind up and just go and do do pretty well and do okay, but I think you hit it
[00:04:53] Right
[00:04:53] I noticed that something's off when I start to be drained by the things that should be bringing life to me or
[00:05:00] should be kind of
[00:05:01] coming more from a place of passion or a
[00:05:04] Place of a sense of meaning and impact that I'm having or something like that
[00:05:09] So something goes missing that we got to pay attention to and so
[00:05:13] I want to talk today
[00:05:14] We're just gonna work through a conversation and I'm sure many of those listening in you guys had some of this same kind of
[00:05:21] Conversation I hope along the way it throughout your ministry, but how do we have a healthy spiritual life as leaders?
[00:05:27] What does that look like and we're gonna look at kind of three big
[00:05:31] Pockets of ways to talk about that and I'm sure people are way ahead of me on this
[00:05:36] But how what are we doing to invest in our spiritual health as leaders?
[00:05:40] And so these three things are just you know three of many broad categories that we could use to talk about this
[00:05:47] But I think it's important to pause and think about what are we doing to invest in our own relationship with the living Lord Jesus
[00:05:54] And grow in that for the sake of what God wants to do to us
[00:05:58] I say it to people a lot here at Marine View
[00:06:02] What is God doing in you so that he can be at work through you and how are you being formed?
[00:06:07] And what's happening in your heart life?
[00:06:09] And are you paying attention to that so that?
[00:06:12] That that work can be done and bear fruit and in what you do next. Yeah, this is very I mean
[00:06:19] I'm glad we're closing our spiritual formation series with this, but we probably could have began with it too so I mean
[00:06:25] It's it's so critically important because it is the I think it's the number one
[00:06:31] problem that
[00:06:33] happens in professional ministry and
[00:06:35] That is just simply that we talk about Jesus more than we talk to Jesus
[00:06:40] We talk about discipleship more than we actually are disciples ourselves
[00:06:44] Yeah, and it always it always goes south whether we become unhealthy
[00:06:50] emotionally physically spiritually or
[00:06:53] out of out of touch with
[00:06:55] Who God's calling so I got a great example of this. I'm not saying that I am
[00:06:59] Burned out or out of touch, but I had a moment today. Yeah, yeah
[00:07:03] It was a red flag to me. We had four funerals this week
[00:07:06] You know, it's just one of those wild weeks where it kind of all happens at once and
[00:07:11] This particular funeral there were a lot of moving parts
[00:07:15] it was a big kind of public figure in our area and
[00:07:20] Five minutes before we started
[00:07:23] The our musician came up to me and said that you know the request of the family
[00:07:29] They're gonna tell a couple extra stories and do this extra song that they weren't planning on doing and I found myself
[00:07:35] My first reaction was just annoyed and frustrated and
[00:07:42] Because like I mean I'll work it's almost game time and I I had to so I said yes, you know like be gargoyle
[00:07:49] I'm sure the look on my face wasn't great, but
[00:07:51] But afterwards I'm thinking of myself like what the heck's your problem dude like yeah
[00:07:56] This family lost a dear family member
[00:08:02] They want to do a song that's special to them it just so happens that our guys can pull it off
[00:08:08] It's gonna it's they're gonna feel
[00:08:12] So much more because of it
[00:08:14] Yeah, what the heck's the matter with you? Why was your first reaction? Yeah to be annoyed. It's stuff like that
[00:08:21] They're like that's not there is no way Jesus would have that reaction. So I don't know depends on this
[00:08:28] I don't know. I just I it's those sorts of things where this shows up. Yeah, there's no margin
[00:08:33] You're feeling thin I think and and and there is a grind to ministry and I think it can be easy
[00:08:40] It's funny because I remember people would say to us
[00:08:43] Hey, be careful, you know to make sure that you've maintained a relationship with Jesus and whatever and I'm like, okay
[00:08:49] That yeah, like yeah
[00:08:53] But then the longer you are in ministry the more you realize
[00:08:56] More and more of your devotional time is kind of set aside for sermon prep or other kinds of things
[00:09:01] And you're sort of doubling up and doing exactly the things that people said hey be careful about this and you're like
[00:09:07] Oh, so that's how that goes and now we're in that seat
[00:09:11] And so if you're you know newer to ministry, maybe you're just starting out
[00:09:15] And you're like who are these guys like why don't they love Jesus?
[00:09:18] Or what a lot more people worry
[00:09:20] This will be applicable in maybe seven to ten years longer
[00:09:24] But we want to come back to that and I think our heart and desire
[00:09:28] Part of why we started the podcast is we wanted to see each other flourish and be healthy
[00:09:33] Not just in leadership, but in our spiritual lives as well as followers of Jesus
[00:09:37] And so it's kind of coming back to that every so often
[00:09:40] We talk a ton of strategy and leadership and best practices and all that but then we come back and go
[00:09:45] How am I doing with the Lord?
[00:09:46] What's that looking like?
[00:09:47] So these three things really are just a way to get into that conversation and pause for some reflection
[00:09:52] So I think the first one for me is to remember the goal or remember who I am in Christ
[00:09:59] That before I'm a pastor or anything else in my life. I am
[00:10:04] A follower of Jesus. I'm a child of God loved by him called into relationship with with the Lord
[00:10:10] And so that's my identity
[00:10:12] In Christ and I am a disciple first and I'm a growing disciple
[00:10:16] Hopefully first as I want other people to be too
[00:10:19] And I was kind of thinking about some of the goals of the life with Jesus
[00:10:24] You know growing and being presented mature in Christ
[00:10:27] Paul says are growing into the likeness of Christ bearing his image having the character of christ formed in me
[00:10:34] And in an ongoing way that
[00:10:36] Increases in my life. And so is that happening? Is that the first thing in my life?
[00:10:40] Am I before anything else?
[00:10:43] A disciple of Jesus is that is my identity rooted in him
[00:10:47] That's so gotta come back to the goal to the big picture
[00:10:50] Who we are
[00:10:51] Yeah, because what's what's the risk there is that our is that we do exactly what we warn others not to do
[00:10:56] And that is to make what you do for a living your identity
[00:11:00] um
[00:11:01] We do that all the time we do it all the time and and
[00:11:05] I mean
[00:11:06] Not for nothing. We have a blurrier line than most
[00:11:10] Yeah, yeah between our professional spiritual personal lives. It's all mixed in
[00:11:16] But I and this is
[00:11:19] I go I come back to this often because I need to remind myself often
[00:11:22] Am I only opening up scripture when i'm preparing a talk or a sermon?
[00:11:27] Yeah, or am I reading devotionally and allowing the Lord to speak to me that nobody's ever gonna hear
[00:11:32] Yeah, let me ask you a question. This is a hard one to ask myself too
[00:11:36] What would your relationship with Jesus look like if the church was just gone from your life? Yeah, yeah
[00:11:42] I know and I go oof
[00:11:45] So when I asked myself, I was kind of getting ready for this
[00:11:48] So I was asking myself this question a couple weeks ago and then I started my uh,
[00:11:52] Read the bible in a year reading plan again. I was like I got to get my act back together
[00:11:55] So sometimes we need to look kick into pans about this kind of thing and go
[00:11:59] Hey, if I wasn't doing what I do as a pastor or leader in the church
[00:12:03] What would my relationship with Jesus be like?
[00:12:06] What would it look like in some ways it might be healthier? I don't know
[00:12:10] uh, but in other ways
[00:12:12] If if that was just gone one day would there be much of it left apart from the functions of of my job and
[00:12:19] You and I we mentioned this last week with jim in our talk
[00:12:23] Just briefly but when we graduated from seminary. Um, we had a couple of professors
[00:12:27] We were closer with and we would go to coffee or maybe go grab a beer with after class and stuff
[00:12:32] And one of those was uh, dr. Gordon Graham is a philosophy guy philosophy of religion and uh, he's just awesome
[00:12:39] Awesome guy and if you're listening dr. Graham, you're the best. Thanks for all the ways you you put up with us
[00:12:45] That was
[00:12:46] He was very gracious with us or the very gracious of you in all of our craziness
[00:12:50] But uh, we kind of had that relationship and I I'm sure a lot of us pastors
[00:12:55] And maybe you resonated with a different professor or have those kinds of relationships
[00:12:58] But you remember what happened jason when we graduation day it was it was kind of like it stands out
[00:13:05] Both of us still remember it pretty vividly
[00:13:07] But it was after graduation and we're getting ready to go everybody's taking pictures and all that and dr. Graham
[00:13:12] Like pulls us aside and wants to talk with us and it's like
[00:13:16] What did we do?
[00:13:18] Yeah, what does it say that I didn't know what was coming?
[00:13:20] We thought we were in trouble for something right
[00:13:23] But he was serious about it and kind of animated about it man really the heart of what he said
[00:13:28] I don't remember the exact words and I don't want to put words into his mouth, but it was basically don't let it become a job
[00:13:35] Don't let it become a job remember to cultivate your your life with jesus too
[00:13:40] um, that that's your first identity and
[00:13:43] That's not exactly what he said. He said it way better than me with an accent and so
[00:13:47] So
[00:13:48] But that was the beating heart of what he said
[00:13:50] Yeah, right and it's always been stuck out to me that okay how
[00:13:55] How am I gonna be the kind of leader in the church?
[00:13:58] That has the in first place in my life is not my identity as a pastor, but
[00:14:04] That identity comes underneath the lordship of christ in my life
[00:14:08] And that's that's how i'm gonna lead. That's the place from which i'm gonna and yeah
[00:14:12] I think we've already maybe we beat the drum too much on this
[00:14:15] It's just easy to get those things out of order and every so often we need to come back
[00:14:19] Yeah, so
[00:14:20] So if the first stage or the first bucket is you know remembering the goal that we're growing
[00:14:27] To grow our faith in jesus christ and maintain our faith
[00:14:30] Usually then what happens is we are we are now aware
[00:14:33] Maybe it was like a red flag like from the funeral today. We're aware that there is something not quite in alignment with that
[00:14:40] Yep, so then what is the next
[00:14:42] The next kind of stage there. I think it really talks about well, how do you get that back?
[00:14:47] Yeah, and I don't know jason. I don't have any answers for you today or any ideas
[00:14:53] But that's what we want to get into right so once we kind of identify that problem or just say
[00:14:58] I don't know that any of us have gotten so far off track with that that we're like
[00:15:02] Blowing up hopefully and and if you're to that place you might need to take some time away to really
[00:15:06] Really do some work
[00:15:07] But if you're just kind of noticing some of those red flags like you did and like I did last night
[00:15:12] I was sitting at a committee meeting and I was just like why am I here?
[00:15:16] Uh, and it's it's important these people. I love these people and and yet I would just I would rather have been doing anything else
[00:15:22] Well, maybe not anything but a lot of other things
[00:15:25] And I think it's kind of one of those things is here. What's going on here
[00:15:28] so when we're when come to this realization that we need to kind of
[00:15:32] Reinvest or come back towards that goal of growing in christ and being presented mature in christ
[00:15:37] Having the character of christ formed in us
[00:15:39] We we gotta really just ask something of how is my faith?
[00:15:44] And how am I going to take some steps to to invest in my spiritual formation again?
[00:15:49] Yeah, it's just it's like the ebb and flow every so often you've got to double down again on the things that you
[00:15:54] No matter most but kind of maybe have got drifted or gone missing in your life a little bit
[00:15:58] And so there's a lot of approaches to do this
[00:16:02] I love what you guys were doing at tower hill with john mark comers book
[00:16:06] Remind us just about that crafting yeah
[00:16:09] Yeah, so um practicing the way is the name of the book and
[00:16:14] We really camped out in it for about a month and
[00:16:17] He has some exercises
[00:16:20] That that he offers at the end that are all free
[00:16:23] And he's got something called a rule of life builder. It's sort of like a
[00:16:27] Sort of think about it's kind of like a spreadsheet and you can use kind of spiritual practices
[00:16:32] And there's boxes for you to figure out how can you incorporate them into your life?
[00:16:35] But I think that's it right the the benedictine
[00:16:39] Developing a rule of life, which this is the magic of discipleship by the way. It's
[00:16:44] How do you bake in?
[00:16:46] Spiritual practices into what you're already doing rather than think about it is well, I've got to add 15 hours
[00:16:52] Add add. Yep, right. But how do I bake it in? Yeah, because that that's what's going to be sustainable. So
[00:16:59] Yeah, so I think asking how your faith is and then developing a rule of life
[00:17:02] You know, that's sort of where comers ends up and I love it. Yeah, there are some investigating to do there
[00:17:08] How am I really doing really?
[00:17:10] And then what am I going to do to to set some habits or disciplines?
[00:17:13] And I think one of the unique things that's available to us as pastors is
[00:17:18] Although we want to cultivate our identity in Christ outside of our our work life
[00:17:23] We can include some of that in our work life because
[00:17:26] Of our role as shepherds of the flock and that kind of thing. And so if you need to include
[00:17:31] Your devotional life your spiritual disciplines within your work day
[00:17:36] Do it you'll be a better version of yourself for your congregation anyway
[00:17:40] And it will help move you towards that goal of being
[00:17:43] Formed in Christ and so how's your faith? How's my faith and I think that's a crucial piece
[00:17:49] What did you think I keep coming back to what uh, Jim singleton said in our last episode when he talked about
[00:17:56] Like the first few hours of the day
[00:17:59] Not taking appointments not even necessarily being quote-unquote productive
[00:18:04] Yeah
[00:18:04] Just kind of being with the lord. That would be awesome. I can't I I was like
[00:18:10] Who who gets to do that? How do I get to do that and what kind of bolt would I have to put on my office door in order for that?
[00:18:18] Yeah, no, I it was a challenging thought though, wasn't it? Yeah, it really was I've been thinking about a sense
[00:18:23] Yeah, I might be a better version of a lot of things
[00:18:26] Including a follower of Jesus in my own my own spiritual life if I had
[00:18:31] Had that practice
[00:18:33] Shutting out the distractions not opening the email not taking phone calls not setting appointments until later
[00:18:38] um
[00:18:39] Maybe that could be part of the rule of life that you develop using a tool
[00:18:43] commerce tool the other one is um that uh, I
[00:18:47] Did about half of it and then I ran out of steam which tells you this is a lot of us pastors
[00:18:51] We get excited about something
[00:18:53] And then we get it halfway done, but it's uh, steven macchia's
[00:18:57] Book an invitation to the well-ordered way crafting a rule of life
[00:19:01] and
[00:19:02] Same kind of idea. I've been addicting approach to like what's the vision for your life?
[00:19:07] You know, where have you been? What's your past? What's your story?
[00:19:10] You know all those your sense of calling vocation in your vocation all that kind of thing
[00:19:14] so a lot of good resources to
[00:19:16] Give you an excuse to invest in your your own spiritual life and to maybe have some habits and disciplines that
[00:19:23] You're able to include in rhythms of your life that can lead to a healthier spiritual formation
[00:19:28] um
[00:19:29] Sometimes it's taken a class again on ed. I think continuing education kind of went away during the pandemic
[00:19:35] Now we're looking up and going. Hey, maybe I need to do that again
[00:19:39] Read a book or listen to an amazing podcast like this and be encouraged or whatever
[00:19:43] You know like but in taking the time to invest in your faith
[00:19:47] And I think connected to that is something that is what you and I kind of did
[00:19:52] We wanted to talk shop and talk leadership certainly
[00:19:55] Because we wanted to see healthy churches and and help pastors lead change
[00:19:59] But part of that was the spiritual discipline of an ongoing connection with a colleague that could support and encourage
[00:20:06] We could support encourage each other and ask each other. How's it going?
[00:20:09] And we could be like hey listen, I bit somebody's head off last week too. You're okay
[00:20:13] It's not the end of the world or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, so I think one of the ways when it comes to house your faith
[00:20:19] Is not just doing it in this private way off to the side on your own
[00:20:23] But including some other trusted people in that with you
[00:20:27] And I remember way back when I was working in college ministry in san Antonio, uh, texas
[00:20:32] I had a handful of students from this small
[00:20:35] Baptist school. It was called the
[00:20:38] Baptist school of the americas. I can't remember exact name
[00:20:41] But these awesome students from all over central and south america and the us and
[00:20:46] What I love is so it was unique is a very conservative place
[00:20:49] But they would walk around and they called everybody called each other brother and sister
[00:20:52] So brother jason brother jesse and one of the things that they often asked each other was how's your faith?
[00:20:58] How's how's your walk? How's your life with the lord going and I just I don't know
[00:21:03] I thought it was pretty pretty cool. I imagine after a while you're like
[00:21:07] If it's probably gets annoying you're like, I just went to have a sandwich like yeah
[00:21:11] I just want to say can I just yeah, please for a little bit
[00:21:14] But I think whether we have everybody doing that all the time that might get exhausting but having some trusted people
[00:21:21] Engaging in that kind of conversation with us. How are you doing? How's your life? How's your faith?
[00:21:25] How's your marriage? How's your you know, whatever the things are in your life and just having people check in with you
[00:21:30] How are you doing as a follower of jesus? Are you growing?
[00:21:34] Are you feeling like you're distant from the lord?
[00:21:37] Are you in a stagnant place and plateaued or you feel disconnected? How how's it going right now and um
[00:21:44] In the denominational world I'm connected to it's actually a requirement of our ordination to be in what we call
[00:21:49] Pastor covenant groups. We are required to be with other pastors and ask these kinds of questions
[00:21:54] hopefully in a life-giving way and not in a
[00:21:56] Rule kind of way, but it's an order we take it seriously that we're going to do those kinds of things and so
[00:22:02] Um just being in each other's lives to help each other
[00:22:06] Be emotionally spiritually healthy part of that is just
[00:22:09] Helping each other be emotionally spiritually aware of what's going on in our lives
[00:22:13] And maybe where god is at work or maybe where something's drifting and we need to get get things back on track
[00:22:19] I don't know. Yeah. No, that's really good. And I think I mean, it's just all I'm sure this resonates with every pastor, but
[00:22:27] And the thing is we all know this stuff
[00:22:31] But we always need reminding and you know, it's like
[00:22:35] I don't I'm not sure what it is. I think it's just the speed of ministry and life and the demands that
[00:22:43] It just piles up in this of life. I mean frankly
[00:22:47] I I know I have enough time
[00:22:49] I think one of the things I was really inspired way back when I think we went to the drive conference or something a long time ago
[00:22:55] And andy stanley's pastor of mega church land in
[00:22:58] 60,000 people on a sunday and a million people watching online or whatever
[00:23:02] Uh, and I just remember him saying that his his conversation with the lord when it was starting was
[00:23:07] I I'm willing to give 45 hours a week to this because I know it will take everything
[00:23:14] If I if I give that and so 45 hours
[00:23:17] I know god that you can do whatever you want to do with those 45 hours
[00:23:20] And that's that was sort of the boundary
[00:23:23] That was healthy and I've always thought admired that sense of
[00:23:27] Yeah, yeah
[00:23:28] God whatever you can do with 45 hours in my life do that and I'm going to choose to be helping my family
[00:23:34] And in my relationship with you outside of that too
[00:23:37] uh, so there's this boundary boundary around it and
[00:23:40] um
[00:23:42] I I've always admired that sort of that sense that hey listen
[00:23:45] It's not fully dependent on on me to get everything done all the time
[00:23:50] And so that 45 hours that's a reasonable amount of time whether it's 40 or 50
[00:23:55] It kind of averages it it out a little bit and within that you can have some habits and disciplines that are really great
[00:24:01] But I'll I'll be really honest. I think I start to know to myself getting drained
[00:24:07] By the time that I waste outside of the 45 hours that I'm putting into my job every 45 or 50 hours
[00:24:13] Or whatever it happens to be that week and it is instagram reels
[00:24:18] It is seattle mariners baseball games on tv
[00:24:21] It is whatever silly dumb netflix show that is really not that good, but I'm watching it anyway
[00:24:28] And not that we shouldn't have those kinds of things to just enjoy life
[00:24:33] But there are times where I'm like what there is no purpose to this
[00:24:37] It is not yielding anything in my life other than just passing the time
[00:24:41] Yeah, and one of my big fears jason is that I'll just
[00:24:45] Look up one day and go I passed the time in my life until I died
[00:24:49] And I don't want to live like that anyway, so not that I am but I don't want us to be like that
[00:24:54] So part of it's being aware of the distractions part of it's kind of cultivating a sense of how am I doing?
[00:25:00] Relationships that can help us ask how's our faith that kind of stuff so
[00:25:04] Um jim's book last week we looked at their that middle section about how to become an attentive leader
[00:25:10] There's some really great suggestions about how to just
[00:25:14] craft a rule of life or some resources for that
[00:25:17] Um how to cultivate a self awareness and other awareness others awareness and then a god
[00:25:22] Awareness or what is the holy spirit doing?
[00:25:24] So a lot of ways to wrestle with that question of how's my faith and what impact is it having on me and and my leadership?
[00:25:31] so
[00:25:32] Um, those are kind of the two first ones like remember your identity in christ
[00:25:36] Remember the goal to be growing be growing as a follower of jesus
[00:25:39] I'll be willing when you see some red flags or maybe even when you're healthy to think about how's my faith
[00:25:45] What do I need to be doing to cultivate that and then I think the last one
[00:25:49] again is just a reminder to us
[00:25:52] but
[00:25:53] Is take the pressure off of yourself to be the savior and the hero of the church
[00:26:00] Um, remember that you are finite and god
[00:26:03] God is eternal and big and invites you into his story and into this new eternal light that he gives so
[00:26:09] jesus loves you
[00:26:11] Even when you aren't gonna have the nicest look on your face at the funeral jason
[00:26:16] jesus loves you and
[00:26:18] In the end it's his mission and his church
[00:26:21] And you're invited to get to be a part of it. You're caught up in his life
[00:26:25] and his mission his ministry so remember that and
[00:26:30] I think surrender something of this need to
[00:26:32] Be that hero or be that savior or be the one that makes it all happen and instead say lord, what are you doing?
[00:26:38] How do I go in your direction?
[00:26:40] um, take the pressure off yourself
[00:26:43] and uh, I can't remember the exact phrase but it's something like
[00:26:47] Surrender as much as of you know of yourself to as much of
[00:26:51] As you know of jesus like do that ongoing like let go of this pressure and
[00:26:56] Again coming back to our friend andi's family this
[00:26:59] I don't know. How are they come up all these great phrases jason?
[00:27:03] It's awesome, but it was impactful for you and I when we were first starting out
[00:27:07] In leadership, we were in download mode, right? We were like, why are the best practices?
[00:27:11] What can we do? How can we grow and again one of the things that stood out to me from that was this
[00:27:17] Really tight saying that has a lot more nuance in it
[00:27:20] But was something like the breadth of your ministry is directly related to the depth of your relationship with jesus christ
[00:27:27] Remember that yeah, I mean it's like hit hit me between the eyes, you know
[00:27:31] that
[00:27:32] In the end
[00:27:33] If we are going to have an impact if we're going to be faithful with a lot
[00:27:37] We gotta
[00:27:38] We've got to be faithful with that that relationship with the lord first and the things that he puts in front of us
[00:27:42] And then it'll grow from there, but if we disconnect ever from a growing deepening relationship with jesus
[00:27:49] Then kind of what happens at the top line in their ministry?
[00:27:52] I don't know is it is going to bear the kind of fruit that we would hope for so
[00:27:56] remember whose mission it is
[00:27:59] and
[00:27:59] Surrender that part of needing to to be the one to solve all the problems and
[00:28:04] And do all the things and figure out how to trust what god's doing and go in that direction
[00:28:08] I love that illustration that francis chan uses in his book crazy love
[00:28:12] Right. I I went about the about the movie being in the movies
[00:28:16] You know, it's like a friend who says yeah, i'm in i'm in a movie and
[00:28:19] Yeah, and you go see the movie and they're in it for like half a second
[00:28:22] Like somewhere in the background and they made it sound like they were the star and and his whole point to that was
[00:28:27] It's god's movie. Yeah, you know just have a small part to play
[00:28:31] We are not the main attraction here
[00:28:33] And that that's freeing it is it is and it's also empowering in a different kind of way right lord
[00:28:39] You're at work. I just want to get on board with what you're doing and go that way
[00:28:43] So reminding ourselves of that I think is one of the ways that we are healthy as spiritual leaders in the life of a church
[00:28:49] We go
[00:28:50] Thank you god that this is your church
[00:28:53] And thank you that you love that person because I don't right now very much at all
[00:28:57] Or whatever the things are that become challenges for us. I was going to ask you where does this so this last one
[00:29:04] You know about remembering that it's his mission not yours. Where does this show up for you?
[00:29:10] Is it is it about
[00:29:13] How tightly you're hanging on to things and feeling like you have to be at the reins
[00:29:19] Constantly is that where it shows up because I feel like for me that's kind of where it shows up. It shows up in
[00:29:24] Well, if I don't do x
[00:29:26] No one's gonna do it or no one's gonna do it in a way that it's supposed to be done or whatever
[00:29:31] Yeah, no, that's exactly. Yeah, which isn't always even true. It's just kind of like what I've convinced myself
[00:29:38] Well, I think we yeah, that's exactly where it shows up for me when I feel a need for control because I'm worried that
[00:29:45] Whatever group or conversation or meeting that's taking place
[00:29:49] Or sermon that's going to be preached or whatever is gonna
[00:29:53] Lead us away from the vision and mission that god has given us and I want us to be intentional about moving in his direction
[00:29:58] So there is this sort of this sense of what I would call
[00:30:03] Uh control but really it's also an absence of trust
[00:30:07] You know because yeah, I go oh
[00:30:10] Actually what I'm doing here is I'm saying holy spirit you
[00:30:13] I don't trust you enough to be at work in those people too when I'm not there to guide the conversation
[00:30:19] And that's kind of a convicting thing. Yeah yikes. Yeah, but but there's also some wisdom that we have to practice
[00:30:25] Now we got in fused division. That's our role or our
[00:30:28] We want to make sure that people are clear and where
[00:30:31] We sense god leading us and what our leadership team is discerned about that and so it doesn't mean we can't hold people
[00:30:36] Our team's accountable or be present for those conversations and but when it starts to feel like control or I don't trust
[00:30:43] There's some other things going on that maybe need to be addressed
[00:30:46] And if you don't trust that team to move in the direction of the mission, there's some other things that need to be tackled
[00:30:51] Uh, and but you can't just go be at every meeting every time in order to make sure so
[00:30:57] Um way back. You remember Patrick glenck-sione. Maybe we revisit this sometime
[00:31:01] He wrote a book called five dis functions of a team
[00:31:04] And the first
[00:31:06] Bottom line thing if you're going to achieve anything meaningful in your work together and your life together is the presence of trust
[00:31:13] Yeah
[00:31:14] Presence of trust and what happens when trust is absent is that we were never quite vulnerable enough
[00:31:21] To really
[00:31:22] Be free
[00:31:24] Uh to be honest with each other and to move things forward. So trust is a big deal
[00:31:27] So for me it's do I trust you lord enough with this church?
[00:31:32] And trust the work that I have done and that you've done through me and through our leadership team
[00:31:38] Trust that the holy spirit is going to bring us together around those things and move us in the same direction
[00:31:42] And that means letting go of some stuff jason and that's a for you guys like you and me
[00:31:47] That's where the rubber meets the road
[00:31:49] Pretty dicey get a little nervous
[00:31:52] But i'm always reminded every time I do that something really good almost always happens
[00:31:57] Sometimes there's train wrecks. That's the risk most of the time something really positive comes out of that
[00:32:03] Yeah, this is such a helpful reminder of this conversation and I've I've really uh
[00:32:08] I've gotten a lot out of this series as we've been talking about it. I think
[00:32:12] um
[00:32:13] It sounds silly, but it's so easy to get away from this stuff that's really at the core of what we should be doing
[00:32:20] right
[00:32:20] Um
[00:32:21] And it's very much accidental because there's so many other things to do
[00:32:25] Like this is the month for us in our church where I've got ever all the deliverables. I hate
[00:32:30] So it's right. It's like we're doing the budget. We're doing performance reviews
[00:32:34] We're doing we're getting ready for
[00:32:37] Like kind of the big presentation of the vision for the next year and all the meetings that it takes to
[00:32:43] Pull all those things off
[00:32:45] It's like all my kind of my least favorite thing. I love talking about the vision but you know making slides and
[00:32:52] You know drilling down into the details. Yeah. Yeah in the I'm in the weeds for like six weeks and I don't like
[00:32:58] You gotta be for a little while, but yeah
[00:33:00] I'm gonna make yeah, but um
[00:33:03] I think it's very timely that we've been talking about spiritual formation because it's been a really good reminder
[00:33:08] that um
[00:33:10] You know keeping the main thing the main thing
[00:33:12] Yeah, and and that's true in the life of the congregation and each person there
[00:33:16] We want to grow relationship with Jesus for them and a growing faith and clear steps in the discipleship pathways
[00:33:22] And how is it what's God doing your life?
[00:33:25] What's your next step?
[00:33:26] And so we need to be strategic in how we mobilize that for other people
[00:33:30] And then we need to be reminded that that needs to be true in our lives too
[00:33:33] We can't lead people someplace
[00:33:35] We haven't been or aren't willing to go ourselves
[00:33:38] And so that that idea of spiritual formation in the life of the church and in our own lives those things go together
[00:33:43] And I don't remember as um, maybe it was the flourish
[00:33:47] Movement stuff that i'm
[00:33:49] Have some connections with and I know you're you're familiar with too, but they say
[00:33:53] Flourishing churches are led by flourishing leaders who themselves are flourishing disciples of Jesus christ
[00:33:59] And you know, there's so much packed into that
[00:34:02] But on the basic level we can see the truth of it right?
[00:34:05] We want to be flourishing in our own faith
[00:34:08] And have what God does in us cascade out of us and make an impact for the kingdom and in our congregations
[00:34:14] So well, you know, you know what happens jesse and I'll just kind of close with this thought is yeah
[00:34:20] um
[00:34:21] It's sort of like so over the last three months
[00:34:24] I've been really doubling down on good healthy practices for my physical health right? Yeah sleep eating exercise
[00:34:32] That and your role of life. That's a big yes 100 percent and
[00:34:36] But because so many people struggle with those things I feel like now that I'm I have that really dialed in
[00:34:44] I speak about it from a much more powerful place
[00:34:48] And I think it's exactly the same spiritually when you're really
[00:34:53] Dialed in spiritually you speak with a certain
[00:34:57] authority and ease
[00:35:00] That it feels a little bit manufactured when it's not
[00:35:04] That's right. Well, does that make sense?
[00:35:06] Fake it till you make it sometimes a little maybe
[00:35:09] But hopefully not and maybe you can even be honest
[00:35:13] Sometimes when it's it's not coming is easy right and say hey, I'm kind of going through a dry time
[00:35:18] I don't know you have to be careful with that stuff with your congregations and well
[00:35:22] It's why you need spiritual friends, you know like you had mentioned. Yeah, we talk about that with each other
[00:35:26] Right and yeah, and I remember uh
[00:35:29] Maybe it was Jim me that that said you know when when you can tell that
[00:35:34] Something is is vital and alive when it just comes spilling out of you, right?
[00:35:38] It just it just comes out because it's true in your life
[00:35:42] You don't have to make up things or find an example that to illustrate your point because it's it's true in your life
[00:35:47] And you're experiencing it too. So I love that jayson. I think that's a great example of
[00:35:52] Of uh, who we want to be in christ formed into the image of christ growing in our our life with the lord
[00:35:59] Being intentional about investigating. How's our faith asking each other doing those kinds of things having a rule of life that says
[00:36:06] Snacking gotta pump the brakes or whatever the thing. Yeah, yeah
[00:36:10] And and then remembering whose mission it is and that you're invited into this bigger story and
[00:36:15] Uh, so you take the pressure off and enjoy some of what god's doing through you
[00:36:20] I love it jesse good stuff. All right everyone. Hey, thanks so much for listening
[00:36:23] I hope this series has been really helpful to you special shout out to a bunch of new folks who've joined our community
[00:36:29] It's been really glad to have you and
[00:36:31] Just don't hesitate to reach out if you have questions or if you have some episode ideas shoot them our way jason or jessey at reclaimedleader.com
[00:36:40] Uh, also, uh, don't forget you can get
[00:36:43] One of the things that we offered was you get the all the slides to the spiritual formation series
[00:36:47] I just preached on really just I mean not because it's so great
[00:36:51] But it's because like helping each other spark ideas
[00:36:54] And you could just go to reclaimedleader.com forward slash sermons and get all those links and hopefully you'll preach
[00:37:00] You'll do something amazing be way better than anything I ever did
[00:37:03] But just let me let me steal it back from you after you've done that. So yeah, that's right. We'll just try to
[00:37:08] That's my only ask that's my last but we love hearing from people
[00:37:11] So please do shout. I mean it keeps us sharp and we love encouraging
[00:37:15] You and rooting for you but also hearing what's working out there that we're maybe getting wrong
[00:37:20] So, you know, uh, whatever so it's a big team effort and we're all in it together
[00:37:24] Yeah, all right everyone
[00:37:25] Hey as we say every single week because it is true when it's tree is hard. It is so much better when we do it together